"We do not disclose information on future design plans, but we invite you to check our website and blog for updates."
Gotta love them bull**** marketing answers :)
Have you looked at Kinesis?
I'm pretty sure the Das people are scouring forums
like this for reviews and future design ideas.
I'd like to think so, the general consensus around here is that the Das 3 is a turkey... low build quality
Im pretty sure the kinesis contoured uses brown cherries. And it is about the price of a Topre Realforce or an HHKB Pro.
http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/images/kb_adv-blk720x471.jpg
However, the 4000's key layout was amazing... it felt so natural, it really was just how my hands wanted to rest & type. However, the worst part about the keyboard was the switches... not just mushy, but hard to press as well.
Has anyone tried to take a normal keyboard and transplant mechanical switches?I haven't but that's exactly my intention as well! to transplant Cherry switches to an MS Ergo 4000.
I haven't but that's exactly my intention as well! to transplant Cherry switches to an MS Ergo 4000.
Or how about we lobby Microsoft to create one? :crazy:
The only problem is that there doesn't seem to be a real cheap source for the switches.
There's also the Northgate Omnikey Revolution
Niiiiiice.Show Image(http://www.ergocanada.com/products/keyboards/pace.gif)
Yep. I have one [Pace Adjustable Keyboard] here.
Yep. I have one here. It was a nice little eBay "find" from last year; about $50 instead of the usual $250-$300. It's a nice design and good build quality, but the height of the board prevents its use in a keyboard tray... and even makes it difficult to use on the desk, without lowering the desk top to a level that makes other things (mouse/trackball) too low.
Thanks, I'll take a look. I forgot to mention in my post that I currently use a MS Natural 4000. I like the layout but hate the keys.
Thanks, I'll take a look. I forgot to mention in my post that I currently use a MS Natural 4000. I like the layout but hate the keys.
An MS Natural 4000 with Cherry browns would be money.
Anyone have any feedback on the Northgate Evolution?
So what mouse are you using? :)
The MS Natural Wireless Laser Mouse 6000.
That's quite a mouse-, err, mouthful. ;) Don't these have a super sensitive scroll wheel? I know someone with one of the higher-end wireless MS KB/mouse sets (should be the 6000), and this still bothers him even at sensitivity all the way down.
Let's make one? Who wants to be the first to post the mod?
This would require custom keycaps and a custom switch pcb.
Well, I bought the Northgate OmniKey Evolution and I'll report back.
So I've been using the Northgate Omnikey Evolution for a few days now and I love it for the most part. The keys are very tactile (but loud) and have a very solid feel to them. My coworkers haven't killed me yet, so that's another plus.
The arrow keys are in a non-standard location, but that doesn't bother me as much as I though it would. I use pipes a lot while typing and, for whatever reason, my hands naturally use the left Shift key, which poses a problem on this keyboard. I'll just have to unlearn that habit.
I opted for the version with the Glidepoint trackpad because I figured that having a trackpad would be better than having an empty spot. It turns out that using the trackpad really helps my RSI. My only wish is that it were a bit larger in area and that the buttons were on the bottom.
Does anyone know how difficult it would be to swap this trackpad for a more modern one?
I'm considering one of these. I think the layout is utterly brilliant btw. Look how it achieves big reductions in hand travel by moving important stuff to the inside fingers and thumbs. Visually it makes me drool. It is a very interesting design and device.
I've been eying that keyboard ever since I saw it in another thread. Thanks for those pictures as well that really helped in finding the manufacture. What just blew me away is that thing has Topre switches in it! Wow. But man it is sure not cheap. 52,500 yen + another 9,450 yen for the wrist rest. That makes it what around $576 just for the keyboard. I think I will have to hold off on it for a bit.
webwit are you going to get one? If it really works out as well as it should it just may be worth it.
http://www.personal-media.co.jp/webshop/others/utronkb.html
( links to http://www.personal-media.co.jp/utronkb/ and
http://www.uctec.com/index.html )
I may or may not buy it depending on availability and quotes from japanese buyer services.
And yeah, it's the only ergonomic Topre keyboard in existence.
Wouldn't it be nice if you could go for a walk and buy this in a shop? ...Show Image(http://www.techdigest.tv/utron-keyboard.jpg)
For not even *half* a thousand dollars? You disappoint me, webwit :)
Apparently this keyboard is based on one from 1991:Show Image(http://www.personal-media.co.jp/utronkb/images/tk1.jpg)
More info here (http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ja&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.personal-media.co.jp%2Futronkb%2F).
As usual, the Google translation is amusing: "TRON keyboard has a unique shape of a mound, electronic pen tablet in the center foreground, TRON is a unique and quite unique keyboard sequences."
Unique and quite unique.
EDIT: Oops, meant to use this link (http://74.125.127.132/translate_c?hl=en&sl=ja&tl=en&u=http://www.personal-media.co.jp/utronkb/article.html).
○ good typing feel comfortable to useSo they used Topre switches on this one as well. But I have to say I like the new one better. Oh and the last part is just great. "The Keyboard is a price fall into the category of high prices" that just cracks me up.
Price of PC keyboards are much cheaper and popular. Now find the keyboard difficult to use even for a bad touch. "ΜTRON keyboard" is good and reliability of touch, the keyboard is used for operations that require durability, using a noncontact capacitive switches. 押SHI付KENAKU it is possible to enter the key to the bottom, allowing light to enter in less shock to the finger touch. The keyboard is a price fall into the category of high prices, the products you use something like永KU favorite pen.
Why? I know you dislike Topre switches but still. Besides he already has a few boards that are even more expensive.
BTW, I don't know if I would like Topre switches or not. .
My point is that I consider them as relatives of oxygen free cables and other audiophile stuff in that they cost a fortune while not providing a real advantage over standard products.
So I just wanted to post a quick follow-up to my prior post about the Northgate Evolution. Unfortunately, I think that it has aggravated my carpal tunnel (the opposite effect I was going for, obviously). I think I need to switch back to the MS Natural 4000. The keyforce on Alps switches is hurting me more than I anticipated. If anyone has any other ideas, I'd be grateful (essentially a MS Natural 4000 with Cherry browns).
Splitted standard keyboards are just ergonomic wannabes.One thing I don't get with the Maltron is: the two typing areas are closer together than the average shoulder width. Meaning your forearms will not be parallel thus forcing you to bend your wrists outwards for the fingers to be in line with the non-staggered keys. But bending the wrist is generally considered un-ergonomic?
The One True Ergonomic Keyboard, designed to fit our hands, is the Maltron. A specialized ergonomic and efficient layout is available with it, too.
Sadly, a compatible flat keyboard for notebooks is not available, otherwise I'd already made the switch.
BS, mechanical switches... just lipstick on the lips of an otherwise nasty keyboard design.
One thing I don't get with the Maltron is: the two typing areas are closer together than the average shoulder width. Meaning your forearms will not be parallel thus forcing you to bend your wrists outwards for the fingers to be in line with the non-staggered keys. But bending the wrist is generally considered un-ergonomic?
Show Image(http://www.maltron.com/recognitia/1.gif)
Fig. 1 Hand abduction at a common keyboard
The outward turning of the wrists, sometimes to an extreme extent as shown in Fig. 1, requires a sustained muscle tension in the arms to hold the hands in the normal typing position.
Maybe you haven't seen a side view of the keys. Your palms are not expected to lay horizontally, but to rest in a naturally inwardly "bent" position. Look at figures 6 and 7 here:
With staggered keys you don't have to bend your wrists outward like the pic shows.
That's exactly why the keys are staggered.
I'm sure at the end of the day all this doesn't matter much because ergonomic research is a soft science like webwit once said. Just trying to point out a flaw in logic here.
A note for the curious: an ergonomic keyboard was designed for the piano, too:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janko_keyboard
Sadly, that's not the case. At least the left side keys would staggered the wrong way, then.Well, there is a fix for European keyboards: simply shift the bottom row one key to the left starting with the B key.
Keyboard keys are staggered because keys on typewriter were staggered, and the latter were staggered for mechanical reason, not ergonomic ones.
It sounds like it was intended to be a more logical layout, though, not a more ergonomic one.
Who says you can't teach an old dog new tricks?Show Image(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=4317&stc=1&d=1252346605)
With staggered keys you don't have to bend your wrists outward like the pic shows. That's exactly why the keys are staggered. Kind of false advertising using the pic like that. And ironically, this is how you have to hold your hands with a non-staggered 'board. Admittedly, not as extreme with the Maltron.
Of course, it's helpful to have your keyboard farther away to minimize bending of the wrists.
In exchange for your adjustment, you'll probably put more strain on your neck, shoulders, or your low back. If you have wonky wrists, it may not be a bad tradeoff, but it is indeed a tradeoff and not really a "better" technique.
Sadly, that's not the case. At least the left side keys would staggered the wrong way, then.Good points. This could also explain why the asd and zxc rows have a 50% offset and the asd and qwe rows only 30%. Something I've always wondered about.
Keyboard keys are staggered because keys on typewriter were staggered, and the latter were staggered for mechanical reason, not ergonomic ones.
I think you are underestimating the hand separation when using the [strike]Behemoth[/strike] Maltron. Judging by this picture you have >11 key widths between index fingers, compared to 2 on a normal keyboard.Still, the lower arms would not be parallel but it looks like that's not necessary.
That's why you guys (not me) are typing on this design :)
Webwit is a highly evolved typist. He has six fingers on each hand, and controls the mouse with his mind:
QUOTE]
Yeah, he's like that freak in the movie Total Recall!
They had to stagger this way to get even spacing for the transmission bars attached to the keys. Keyboard manufacturers could stagger any damn way they pleased to. Chickens.
Who says you can't teach an old dog new tricks?
[Pic of DIY international IBM mini]
There was mine (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=6776), and a few others I think.
To make matters interesting, Qwerty even gives the left hand more work even when the key layout is rather unnatural for that hand. The layout can be replaced with Colemak, but the underlying problem remains: it is harder to type with the left hand due to the way the keys are shifted relative to each other. I can't stop wondering what this would mean for Dvorak...
I don't think I would have lasted long programming on a mechanical typewriter back then.
It would have also been pretty hard to execute any of the code you wrote too.
So I just wanted to post a quick follow-up to my prior post about the Northgate Evolution. Unfortunately, I think that it has aggravated my carpal tunnel (the opposite effect I was going for, obviously). I think I need to switch back to the MS Natural 4000. The keyforce on Alps switches is hurting me more than I anticipated. If anyone has any other ideas, I'd be grateful (essentially a MS Natural 4000 with Cherry browns).
So I just wanted to post a quick follow-up to my prior post about the Northgate Evolution. Unfortunately, I think that it has aggravated my carpal tunnel (the opposite effect I was going for, obviously). I think I need to switch back to the MS Natural 4000. The keyforce on Alps switches is hurting me more than I anticipated. If anyone has any other ideas, I'd be grateful (essentially a MS Natural 4000 with Cherry browns).
Maybe.... hope for the Truly Ergonomic? You never know...
I said hope, not wait. :)
How hard is it to pull out the Fkeys and add in Cherry switches?
I actually ordered a Kinesis Contoured at the beginning of this thread and found that it was unacceptable for my job. I'm a programmer, and we work with a proprietary programming language. The IDE requires the heavy use of F-keys with multiple modifiers (Ctrl/Shift/Alt combinations) and the F-keys on this keyboard are just plain horrible (in my opinion). They are rubberized chicklets and I could not do my job adequately with the keyboard. For normal word processing, it was great, though.
Oh, I'm still here all right :)
I appreciate the suggestion -- it just seems like a bit of an unstable setup (that takes a lot of desk space).
Have there been any other new keyboards released that have the layout of the MS Natural 4000 but with mechanical switches?
You can use the 2nd layer on the kinesis to remap the regular number keys as function keys. += and _- can be F11, F12.
A footswitch works very nice for reaching the 2nd layer momentarily.
Also, avoid one-handed key combos. Once you start using both hands, you'll see it's actually comfortable and fast!
only privatelyI was actually just searching for that to post it. Seems like for typists that need a completely standard layout but with an ergonomic twist, the ergo4k is just about perfect. Except for the incredibly awful switches. The mechanical conversion mod on that board seems like a perfect solution - I've wanted to do that since I first tried the board years & years ago, and I actually have a NIB one sitting in my closet, waiting. I just have to find a donor board, but I'm waiting to see if I want blues or browns more.
http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:12439&do=comments
that's still unfinished btw, the working beta version is really ugly but works like a charm.
i detailed as much as i could in that mod, truthfully it could be "completed" in a day if i took out "ALOT" of extras (which i want to keep) heck, half of the mods is "making it look pretty" which i didn't care for but ppl really said my current ergo 4k mod v1 is so damned ugly they shamed me. You do learn a lot of "skills" lol if you don't have em already. Check out the cherry board i got for donor boards, i got the same exact model and they were like 25ish, not bad for 120ish cherry browns just put in g80-8200 into your ebay search and have them mail you updates. IDK what blues are cheap donor boards, maybe horrible iscopus or those other badly soldered boards for 50bucks.
oh and don't forget about the controller, i really couldn't figure out a way to solder leads to the microsoft 4k controller since it was like only circuit boarded connected and had that layer of like wax or enamel over it, teensy woulda been cool.