Author Topic: Truly Ergonomic Communication - 25 May 2011  (Read 10586 times)

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Offline iMav

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Truly Ergonomic Communication - 25 May 2011
« on: Wed, 25 May 2011, 22:53:05 »
Dip switches!!!

Quote

This email is to provide you with an update during our production phase.

Manufacturing phase

We are currently finalizing the last phase to fabricate all parts of the Truly Ergonomic Keyboard, this will allow us to produce final samples making sure they all follow our design specifications. We will manufacture your Truly Ergonomic Keyboard thereafter.

We were having difficulties creating a PCB/firmware (internal circuit board and software) combination which would work effortlessly with a diverse array of Operating Systems, like Windows, Linux, or Mac OS X. We wanted to ensure the keyboards would not require the user to use complicated software which might not have been compatible with all Operating Systems.

Because of this, we have decided to add DIP switches to the Truly Ergonomic Keyboard. These are simple, easily accessible switches, which can be used at any time, and by any user. They will allow for: changing key functionality between those required for different Operating Systems; switching between the 104, 105, and 109 model modes; and remapping the functionality of either of the spacebars. All that, and more, will be possible with the simple flip of a switch.

For example, switching between supported operating system modes would result in the key-functionality differences as follows:
Windows:*** Ctrl, Ctrl, Alt, Alt/AltGr, Windows key.
Linux:******** Ctrl, Ctrl, Alt, Alt/AltGr, Meta key.
Mac OS X:** command, command, option, control, Fn key.

Delivery Date

Although we are approaching the delivery date of a breakthrough product, that date can still only be estimated. Pre-orders allow us to cost-effectively manufacture a more precise quantity of each keyboard model, reducing our overall production and inventory costs and guaranteeing the manufacturing of required models.

As you are probably already aware, we have unfortunately experienced manufacturing hurdles which were out of our control, and were keen to avoid any circumstances under which the quality of the shipped Truly Ergonomic Keyboard might be viewed as unsatisfactory.

We realize that the initial delivery dates we gave you were premature, given third-party hurdles which we failed to anticipate. We apologize and thank you once again for your support.

Having said the above, we are currently estimating the pre-order delivery date for early July 2011; delivery of these pre-orders could be earlier as our primary goal is to bring our line of products to market as soon as possible.

As a valued customer, we would like to offer you our sincere apologies for this inconvenience and are offering you our gratitude with an exclusive gift certificate in the amount of fifty US dollars, redeemable for any product that we offer up to twelve months after you receive your Truly Ergonomic Keyboard.


Delivery Address

We will contact you again when we are about to manufacture your Truly Ergonomic Keyboard in order to verify your delivery address information and to provide you with an accurate delivery date.


We thank you once again for your patience and understanding during our production phase.

Please send us an email should you have any questions or require additional information.

Regards,
The Truly Ergonomic team

Offline redpill

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Truly Ergonomic Communication - 25 May 2011
« Reply #1 on: Wed, 25 May 2011, 23:56:17 »
Well at least they didn't punt a full five months like the rapture guy.

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Offline shrap

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Truly Ergonomic Communication - 25 May 2011
« Reply #2 on: Thu, 26 May 2011, 00:11:08 »
Haha, they're going to give you a $50 coupon on "any product that we offer". So basically, another keyboard at the same price.

Offline hoggy

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Truly Ergonomic Communication - 25 May 2011
« Reply #3 on: Fri, 27 May 2011, 12:59:45 »
Is that another $50 voucher on top of the earlier one?  If so, this could soon mount up to another free keyboard...
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Offline Input Nirvana

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Truly Ergonomic Communication - 25 May 2011
« Reply #4 on: Fri, 27 May 2011, 13:15:57 »
DIP switches: going backwards in "technology time"

But re-engineering the internals in only 3 months sounds impressive, if it actually delivers in July.
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Offline calavera

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Truly Ergonomic Communication - 25 May 2011
« Reply #5 on: Wed, 01 June 2011, 04:20:09 »
I was wondering what's up with this keyboard. Weren't these supposed to be shipped out February or earlier? :) July is not that far away so interesting to see the final results.. finally.

Offline Sam

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Truly Ergonomic Communication - 25 May 2011
« Reply #6 on: Sat, 04 June 2011, 10:26:48 »
Just wondering if the dip switches mean they deleted the programmability feature.  If so, I'd think that would be a major step backwards, and enough to convince a large number of buyers to cancel.  It certainly would if I was buying one.

It sounds as though very little testing was done if they're changing the board at this late state.  Testing like that should have been done way back in the initial prototype stage.  I think of all the communications from them, this one is the most disconcerting. I tried to give them the benefit of the doubt previously, knowing from first-hand experience how difficult it is to get to the production stage of a new product.  But I really have serious doubts at this point as to whether they are really capable of delivering a product.  I'd still like to see this keyboard be produced as I think it's an excellent opportunity for a large number of people to test out their concept.

As for making a change such as this so late in the process, it can be done very quickly if necessary and if you have capable engineers, suppliers, etc.  For instance, I've had instances where the buyer made a last minute change which required some PCB/component modifications as well as firmware changes, at a level of complexity much more than this change should entail.  The total time from the buyer announcing the need for the change till the modified product came off the assembly line was four days.  So it can be done.

Some further thoughts - a keyboard is a very simple electronic device, requiring very basic electronics and firmware skills.  If I were designing such a keyboard, after the keyboard concept (ie. key layout, features, etc.) was finalized, I would estimate it would require a maximum of a week of work for the electronics and a maximum of two weeks of work for the firmware.  If there's a separate hardware and firmware engineer, it should take only two weeks with them working in conjunction.  If one engineer handles both, then three weeks.  Double that time to take into account testing and debugging, plus some extra time for whatever issues might arise, and the finished product should be available in less than two months.  Of course if your engineers have no experience in making such a product, it could take them considerably longer.  But if that was the case, I think I'd have my doubts about the reliability of the product with inexperienced engineers designing it.  The mechanical engineering would likely take longer than the electronics or firmware, but anything more than three months there, which would include the time for making several adjustments should be more than enough.  Delays in manufacturing can also happen, and I'm certainly sympathetic to a company who experiences manufacturing delays, being I've had them myself on numerous products I've designed.  But I've never experienced delays as long as this, especially for such a simple product.  Thus in my opinion, as a designer and manufacturer of electronic devices, there is something seriously wrong with this.

Offline redpill

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Truly Ergonomic Communication - 25 May 2011
« Reply #7 on: Sat, 04 June 2011, 10:46:15 »
Hmm, well they haven't changed any of the language on their site indicating the product is fully re-programmmable.  With an alternative layout like this, that part is obviously very key (no pun intended).

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Offline rantenki

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Truly Ergonomic Communication - 25 May 2011
« Reply #8 on: Tue, 07 June 2011, 11:31:31 »
The delays they are encountering are entirely what I would expect for a first time offshoring effort. They probably had no problem designing the initial prototype, but they probably were setting up to have it manufactured somewhere in China, and I'll bet there were quite a few discrepancies and/or mild design flaws that meant they had to iterate... Iterating on design/manufacturing issues with a company overseas is PAINFUL unless you have staff in the manufacturing center to interface with their staff. I have been through this a couple of times, and it can be a real killer; for smaller production runs the cost of setup overseas easily can eat the cost advantages. Also, a 6 week turnaround for a design change isn't that surprising, and would explain all of TE's delays.

Offline Sam

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Truly Ergonomic Communication - 25 May 2011
« Reply #9 on: Wed, 08 June 2011, 17:06:10 »
Quote from: rantenki;356796
The delays they are encountering are entirely what I would expect for a first time offshoring effort. They probably had no problem designing the initial prototype, but they probably were setting up to have it manufactured somewhere in China, and I'll bet there were quite a few discrepancies and/or mild design flaws that meant they had to iterate... Iterating on design/manufacturing issues with a company overseas is PAINFUL unless you have staff in the manufacturing center to interface with their staff. I have been through this a couple of times, and it can be a real killer; for smaller production runs the cost of setup overseas easily can eat the cost advantages. Also, a 6 week turnaround for a design change isn't that surprising, and would explain all of TE's delays.

We use China based manufacturing very frequently in our business.  But as you say, for small production runs it is quite likely it will actually cost more to make it in China due to the various issues.  For first runs (unless the quantity is huge), or for small runs, we always use local facilities.  After the product is established, then we switch to China.

At issue here though is a design change made at the last minute not having anything to do with it being made in China or not. Granted, if it is made in China, the change may bring even more delay, but the manufacturing has already been delayed for at least 8 months, which is way beyond any delays due to it being made in China should have caused. Evidently the board does not work properly with different computers/OS's, and to solve the problem dip switches were added.  My problem with this is that this problem should have been identified very early on and corrected.  Let me explain in detail my position on this.

For simplicity sake, there are two types of people who attempt to develop and market consumer electronics - Realists and Perfectionists.  Perfectionists however do not belong in the consumer electronics business and they will almost always flat out fail right from the start, unless they quickly realize their error and switch to being a Realist.  The Realist realizes that for all but the most basic of electronics, employing firmware as part of the product, you can never make a perfect product.  There will always be some sort of bug in the firmware, and if the product interfaces with a PC, there will always be compatibility issues.  He realizes that you can never make the product 100% perfect, or if you could, it would take years and years to accomplish and huge sums of money.  He realizes that there is a threshold - a balance of spending time/money on debugging a product, and making it as good as possible to be useable by the maximum number of users.

This threshold will vary depending on a lot of factors, of which the size/resources of the company, as well as the size of the market for the product are key.  For a company's first ever product, designed with a very narrow market in mind, and by a one-man or very small company, this threshold may be quite low.  This doesn't mean the product should fail for everyone who tries to use it, or that the product fails after being used for a short period of time.  Those issues do need to be worked out.  But if the product let's say is incompatible with a certain range of PCs, which eliminates let's say 20% of the market, that has to be factored in with how much time/money it will cost to make it compatible with most or all of that remaining 20%.  There is nothing wrong with introducing a product along with a disclaimer that it is incompatible with certain equipment, so that the consumer is aware of this issue before making a purchase.

In this particular case, a realist would look at the situation, and even if the keyboard would only work with PCs running Windows, but could be gotten to market quickly, I would think they would make that decision.  And worry about Mac and Linux compatibility for version 2 of the board.  If 80% of your market is PC Windows, but you delay by many months the product introduction in order to get more of the remaining 20%, you'll likely lose out on many of your Windows customers due to your delay.  It simply doesn't make economic sense.  Of course from the end-user standpoint, we always want it to work with our system and complain loudly about companies who release products with limited compatibility.  But the reality of the marketplace is that for low quantity items designed by small firms with limited resources, this is often the only sensible way to go.

When I first started out in the consumer electronics business, I was a perfectionist myself.  I learned very quickly though that I had to become a realist.  The budget for my first product was rapidly running out, and I was far from producing the final product.  So immediately I had to drop all my wild plans for 100% compatibility, and concentrate on a core product that was reasonably bug-free and useable by a slightly reduced target market.  We tested the product a reasonable amount, and fixed the bugs/problems we could find.  When the product was released, we had a small number of returns, which was very acceptable, and reports of bugs/problems from the field which we fixed in later releases, and the product was quite successful.

Of course, if you're in the market of selling aircraft navigation electronics, medical monitoring equipment, or any critical piece of electronics where lives are at stake, then this approach will absolutely not work.  In that case you do want a perfectionist or someone near that level working on your products.  And your greatly increased development time/costs will naturally be reflected in the increased cost to the end user.

So with regard to this Truly Ergonomic product, I see the likely cause of the production delays being one of two things:

1) The owner is a perfectionist and has no prior experience in making consumer electronics to know that his approach will never work.  He will flat out fail unless he becomes a realist.

2) The owner is probably a one-man operation (or maybe a single worker to help him out), and is trying to do this with very limited resources and has gotten in over his head.  He way underestimated what it takes to get a product to market, and may very well be running out of funds.  If so, he may not even be devoting all his time and resources to this as he may need to make money by other means, such as a job, or selling other products.  So without being able to devote his full resources to this, the product will see more and more delays.

If number 1 is the case, we will never see the finished product, because it is impossible to make something 100% perfect, and the owner will run out of money or someone else will beat him to the market.

If number 2 is the case, eventually we may see the board produced, if he doesn't run out of money or ambition first, but some may question the quality of the finished product if it's being produced by someone with no prior experience in this field or in manufacturing.  I know I would have reservations in that case.

Not trying to come down too hard on Truly Ergonomics, as I really would like to see them succeed with this product, as I do believe there is likely a market niche for this and would like to personally try one out.  Just speaking from first-hand experience, I have my doubts about the viability of them being able to produce a real marketable product.

Offline Lanx

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Truly Ergonomic Communication - 25 May 2011
« Reply #10 on: Wed, 08 June 2011, 23:20:54 »
This just means that if it does come to market, the ones who really stayed on to get the $50 discount can then go and give their $50 gift certificate to other GH'ers who gave up and didn't want to take the chance, win/win i guess.

Offline rantenki

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Truly Ergonomic Communication - 25 May 2011
« Reply #11 on: Thu, 09 June 2011, 10:32:24 »
Quote from: ripster;356797
When in doubt I always blame China.  So do the Razer haters at OCN (now at 144 posts!).
I am not blaming china at all! I am blaming a naive first time outsourcing attempt.
Mostly because, been there done that.
I should point out that nobody is as cheap as china for a large number of relatively simple injection moulded parts and fr2 pcbs, and you can get good QA if you try.

p.s. Sam++

Offline Tracer

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Truly Ergonomic Communication - 25 May 2011
« Reply #12 on: Tue, 14 June 2011, 12:32:28 »
I'm still on the fence about weather cancelling my pre-order was a good idea. Loosing the $50 discount was actually important as I would have ordered another if the first one was good.

However, loosing programmable keys is rather huge. If we're limited to a set of pre-defined assignments, then I would have ordered the wrong keyboard. Not only that, but I don't like the default layout, and the examples above don't solve that.

This keyboard is still the closest thing to my ideal keyboard. I just wish it was being executed by a competent company.

Offline sordna

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Truly Ergonomic Communication - 25 May 2011
« Reply #13 on: Tue, 14 June 2011, 12:45:31 »
Well, they did update their website looks like. Changed the backgound to blue. I do think the design is an improvement over traditional keyboards, but it doesn't go far enough.
Other straight-column keyboards have gone much further, like the Kinesis Advantage, which is fully programmable, AND has a configurable click feedback sound, AND takes footswitches, AND has an angle to reduce pronation, AND has red switches as an option, AND supports macros, AND has a second, also programmable layer, AND is done by a very competent and responsive company.

[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 19132[/ATTACH]
« Last Edit: Tue, 14 June 2011, 12:48:25 by sordna »
Kinesis Contoured Advantage & Advantage2 LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Advantage2, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, IBM SSK (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard

Offline rantenki

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Truly Ergonomic Communication - 25 May 2011
« Reply #14 on: Fri, 17 June 2011, 20:34:04 »
Quote from: sordna;360637
(Attachment Link) 19132[/ATTACH]

Kinesis + MX reds == HEADEXPLODES!

So. Jealous.

Offline sordna

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Truly Ergonomic Communication - 25 May 2011
« Reply #15 on: Fri, 17 June 2011, 22:59:04 »
I got jealous of myself, and bought a 2nd one. It's better than I expected... it's typing bliss! I should buy more to store in vaults, preferably scattered in different continents for extra safety. They do also sell just the keywells outfitted with red switches, if you don't want to buy a new keyboard but have an old contoured that you would like to upgrade.
http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?18200-Kinesis-Advantage-LF-%28Linear-Feel-Cherry-MX-Red-switches%29-shipped
Kinesis Contoured Advantage & Advantage2 LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Advantage2, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, IBM SSK (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard

Offline litster

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Truly Ergonomic Communication - 25 May 2011
« Reply #16 on: Sat, 18 June 2011, 00:10:40 »
Back up.  You have got to have back up.  My precious!

Offline Mackansson

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Truly Ergonomic Communication - 25 May 2011
« Reply #17 on: Sat, 18 June 2011, 06:12:04 »
They have pushed the delivery date for pre orders once more. Subtle, but none the less. Before it said early July, now it's only July. Somehow I have a feeling in my stomach that it might not happen in July...  :)

Offline sordna

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Truly Ergonomic Communication - 25 May 2011
« Reply #18 on: Sat, 18 June 2011, 14:28:17 »
Don't postpone your summer vacation plans if you're waiting for delivery. Just read about the new expected delivery date, whenever you're back in town.
Kinesis Contoured Advantage & Advantage2 LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Advantage2, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, IBM SSK (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard

Offline keyboardlover

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Truly Ergonomic Communication - 25 May 2011
« Reply #19 on: Sat, 18 June 2011, 14:37:19 »
Did these start shipping yet?

My doubleshots certainly haven't.

Offline redpill

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Truly Ergonomic Communication - 25 May 2011
« Reply #20 on: Mon, 27 June 2011, 14:42:03 »
We're coming up on "delivery month" of July.  Anyone received any further communication?

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Offline Input Nirvana

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Truly Ergonomic Communication - 25 May 2011
« Reply #21 on: Mon, 27 June 2011, 15:01:39 »
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!
Kinesis Advantage cut into 2 halves | RollerMouse Free 2 | Apple Magic Trackpad | Colemak
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Offline sordna

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Truly Ergonomic Communication - 25 May 2011
« Reply #22 on: Tue, 05 July 2011, 11:10:04 »
July has arrived, any update?

edit: Website now says late July. Also new thread has been started:

http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?19356-Truly-Ergonomic-Communication-30-June-2011
« Last Edit: Tue, 05 July 2011, 11:15:13 by sordna »
Kinesis Contoured Advantage & Advantage2 LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Advantage2, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, IBM SSK (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard