Ergonomic mechanical keyboard

[afton]

From searching the old threads, it seems to be that the only
one in existence is the very rare IBM M15 split keyboard.

What I'm more interested is the MS Natural Ergo 4000 layout style
http://www.microsoft.com/hardware/mouseandkeyboard/productdetails.aspx?pid=043 but with mechanical switches.

I haven't found any so far. Would it be good if we start lobbying
manufacturers to produce one (so they're convinced that there's
a market for it). Any other keyboard enthusiasts interested?

I'm thinking of Das and I have emailed them whether they have
any intention of building an ergo version of their Professional model, their reply was  
"We do not disclose information on future design plans, but we invite you to check our website and blog for updates."

[ch_123]

There's also the Northgate Omnikey Revolution, which is also quite rare AFAIK, but not as expensive as the M15.

"We do not disclose information on future design plans, but we invite you to check our website and blog for updates."

Gotta love them bull**** marketing answers

[afton]

Gotta love them bull**** marketing answers

LOL yeah I know, but rather than viewing them as some profiterring
gluttons, I'm more of the view of working together to achieve a win-win
situations hehe. I'm pretty sure the Das people are scouring forums
like this for reviews and future design ideas.

If they perceive that enough people out there are interested (read:
money), no doubt they will be making it.

[afton]

Have you looked at Kinesis?

I have, they don't specify it on their website. Are they using
mechanical switches for their keyboards?

[ch_123]

I'm pretty sure the Das people are scouring forums
like this for reviews and future design ideas.

I'd like to think so, the general consensus around here is that the Das 3 is a turkey... low build quality and some serious issues with the controller that cause it to register unpressed keys at random.That said, if they do in fact read some of these forums, I wouldnt be surprised if the Das 4 turned out exactly like this -



Complete with crude red crosses.

Christ, I'm turning into Ripster... =P

[afton]

I'd like to think so, the general consensus around here is that the Das 3 is a turkey... low build quality

.
edit: moved post to the other thread for clarity.

[iggysaps]

Im pretty sure the kinesis contoured uses brown cherries.  And it is about the price of a Topre Realforce or an HHKB Pro.

http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/images/kb_adv-blk720x471.jpg

[ch_123]

Ignore this post.

[kyamei]

No G80-5000 mentions?  Not that it's any cheaper or easier to get than the other options.

[ch_123]

I was going to point it out, then I forgot it's model number... Thought that they were expensive too?

[rdh]

Im pretty sure the kinesis contoured uses brown cherries.  And it is about the price of a Topre Realforce or an HHKB Pro.

http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/images/kb_adv-blk720x471.jpg

Yup, browns:



It's more: The Advantage is $300 in Kinesis' online store, though they also have a refurbished one for $240.

Ergonomic input devices are often pricey -- I think they expect you to get your employer to buy it for you.  I like the idea behind Matias' half-keyboard but they'll never see my money, since they insist on pricing it at $600 (!)


EDIT: They have three models that allow half-keyboard typing, including one with ALPS switches.  All three are $600.

[jumpfroggy]

Wow, this is really strange... I literally just came to geekhack to search for "ergonomic mechanical keyboards" because I wanted to know if anyone had hacked a MS ergo 4000, and the first result was this thread.  Freaky.

I use a Majestouch Filco right now (with the browns... tactile, no click).  I love it, beats any membrane keyboard (though I haven't tried any other mechanicals yet).  However, I did at one point buy the MS 4000 and I loved certain aspects, but hated others.

I've used the MS natural (the second version, forget how many there were) and found it nice, but not amazing.  Better for the hands than a normal keyboard, but when it broke I didn't really miss it.  However, the 4000's key layout was amazing... it felt so natural, it really was just how my hands wanted to rest & type.  However, the worst part about the keyboard was the switches... not just mushy, but hard to press as well.  They used the worst membrane switches.  Then the spacebar, it had no metal bar (to keep it from binding), and it was very wide and flexible, so it bound up all the time and was incredibly annoying to use.  So I hated the keyboard, but going back to a normal straight layout after 2 days of use was hard.  I remember thinking that if they ever fixed the switches, that would be the best keyboard I'd ever seen.

I keep seeing sales for the 4000, Newegg just had it for $25 shipped (sold out now), and every time I just keep thinking "If they just had better switches, I'd buy 2 in a heartbeat!"  So how about it?  Has anyone tried to take a normal keyboard and transplant mechanical switches?  How about an ergonomic keyboard?  Is it monetarily feasible?  Digikey sells all types of Cherry key switches, and the browns (I think) are about $.96/ea in the quantities I'd need (http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=CH310-ND).  Is this as crazy as it sounds, or is there something to this?

Given a cheap supply of mechanical switches, and a lot of boredom/extra-time, this would make a neat project.  If successful, it would truly be one amazing keyboard.  What do you guys think?

[iggysaps]

Well just about as expensive.  Ive seen one for 269 from ergoworks.  Still more expensive than the HHKB pro, by around 30 dollars.

[afton]

However, the 4000's key layout was amazing... it felt so natural, it really was just how my hands wanted to rest & type.  However, the worst part about the keyboard was the switches... not just mushy, but hard to press as well.

Welcome jumpfroggy! I've only just joined today as well, and was quite
pleasantly surprised that there's an actual specific forum for keyboards, kudos to the founders.
I'd imagine in a few years there're going to be copycat forums, probably
more specialised, like "ergonomic wireless mechanical keyboard" lol

Has anyone tried to take a normal keyboard and transplant mechanical switches?

I haven't but that's exactly my intention as well! to transplant Cherry switches to an MS Ergo 4000.
Or how about we lobby Microsoft to create one? :crazy:

[jumpfroggy]

I haven't but that's exactly my intention as well! to transplant Cherry switches to an MS Ergo 4000.

Hmm... how serious are you about this?  If the newegg sale wasn't OOS, I'd be tempted to buy one and a couple of cherry switches and see if it's feasible.  The only problem is that there doesn't seem to be a real cheap source for the switches.  At about $1/ea, that means a typical keyboard will need $100+ just for switches, even if you ignore some of the lesser keys (like the multimedia keys).  But if it did work, I think it'd be worth it.

So there's the obvious question of "Can it be done?"  But there's also the question if it's worth it.  There are other mechanical ergonomics out there, so we have to ask why we'd hack this together.  Is the 4000 really worth the effort?  I know the layout felt amazing, but maybe if I'd tried some of the other ergo boards people had mentioned then I'd think that there are better keyboards out there.  I don't know.

Or how about we lobby Microsoft to create one? :crazy:

They created a really neat, really nice looking ergo keyboard with the worst switches known to man and a (looking for the right word) insanely idiotic spacebar.  They're not worried at all about niche users, esp. for things like this.  I think we're on our own.

So, did you order one yet?  Got pics of the switches with the keys removed?  Next time I'm at staples, I'll take a peek (they always have the 4000 at office supply stores)

[lowpoly]

The only problem is that there doesn't seem to be a real cheap source for the switches.

You can harvest switches from used 'boards you buy on ebay. But it's definitiely not your only problem.

[Rajagra]

Nobody has mentioned Maltron. They use Cherry MX switches (black, but maybe others are an option?) They are probably the second most expensive ergo boards around (after the Datahand), but if I had RSI cost would be an extremely low priority. They've been around since 1977, I think they know their stuff.

[itlnstln]

There's also the Northgate Omnikey Revolution

For clarification, it's the Evolution.  They're pretty easy to find.  You can find them at Northgate-keyboard-repair.com.  There is also the Smartboard from Datadesk.

[skriefal]

There's also the Chicony KB-7001 and the Pace Adjustable Keyboard.  White Alps or Alps clones in both of these.

[skriefal]

Niiiiiice.

Show Image

Yep.  I have one here.  It was a nice little eBay "find" from last year; about $50 instead of the usual $250-$300.  It's a nice design and good build quality, but the height of the board prevents its use in a keyboard tray... and even makes it difficult to use on the desk, without lowering the desk top to a level that makes other things (mouse/trackball) too low.

[lal]

Yep.  I have one [Pace Adjustable Keyboard] here.

You owe us a review!  Seriously.  Please.

[itlnstln]

Yep. I have one here. It was a nice little eBay "find" from last year; about $50 instead of the usual $250-$300. It's a nice design and good build quality, but the height of the board prevents its use in a keyboard tray... and even makes it difficult to use on the desk, without lowering the desk top to a level that makes other things (mouse/trackball) too low.

That's good to know.  I was just about to start scouring eBay for one, but now that you mentioned the height issues (and I don't really care for Alps much anymore), I decided to pass.

[skriefal]

I'll try to get some better photos of the Pace, along with the dimensions and more comments on the board itself.  Can perhaps post this as a "review" of sorts whenever it's ready.

[Xuan]

I don't think it actually exists, as those pics are renders. But looks promising though

[Jcooper01]

I literally just stumbled across this forum too (using the same search terms as the poster above).  I purchased the Kinesis Advantage keyboard a few weeks ago because it seemed to be the most highly recommended mechanical ergonomic keyboard out there.  I'm a software developer and I've found the Advantage to be extremely comfortable for typing plain text.  However, I also need to use modifier key combinations with F-keys in the programming environment I use.  I've fond a combination like Ctrl+Shift+F7 to be nearly impossible on this keyboard.  The other disappointment is that while nearly all the keys are Cherry browns, the F-keys are crazy tiny rubber keys (like on a TV remote control).  So, while I like the comfort the Advantage offers, I'm going to return it and search for a new keyboard.  I'm tempted by the Northgate Ergonomic Evolution, but I'm concerned by the lack of tenting (I have bad carpal tunnel).  Has anyone with CT used the Evolution?  Any other recommendations for me?  I really appreciate the input!

[keyb_gr]

Take a look at the Maltron boards, maybe you'd like that layout better.

[Jcooper01]

Thanks, I'll take a look. I forgot to mention in my post that I currently use a MS Natural 4000. I like the layout but hate the keys.

[afton]

Thanks, I'll take a look. I forgot to mention in my post that I currently use a MS Natural 4000. I like the layout but hate the keys.

Same!

[itlnstln]

Thanks, I'll take a look. I forgot to mention in my post that I currently use a MS Natural 4000. I like the layout but hate the keys.

 
I feel you.  An MS Natural 4000 with Cherry browns would be money.

[afton]

An MS Natural 4000 with Cherry browns would be money.

Let's make one? Who wants to be the first to post the mod?

[Jcooper01]

I think that the Maltron will have some of the same issues as the Kinesis (unless I'm not looking at the one you meant).  Anyone have any feedback on the Northgate Evolution?

[itlnstln]

Anyone have any feedback on the Northgate Evolution?

Why yes, I do.
 
Great keyboard.  It's worth every penny you spend on it.  It should last you the rest of your natural life and can be used as a weapon on anyone or anything that should want to end your life prematurely.  The only downside is that it is incredibly loud.  I would highly suggest that you buy one along with an AEKII or SGI 'board (a broken, "parts only" keyboards would be perfect for this).  Both of those have sliders with dampers which are very quiet.  Replace the siders in the Northgate with the dampened ones from the donor keyboard.  There are detailed instructions how to modify Alps switches in the Mods forum.

[Jcooper01]

Do you have wrist problems?  Does the flatness of the Northgate bother you at all?

[itlnstln]

The flatness of the Northgate is perfect.  I never raise the back of my keyboards.  I don't use the Northgate much anymore sue to noise, though.  I used to have wrist problems, but I found out it mainly due to my mouse not my keyboard.

[Jcooper01]

So what mouse are you using?

[itlnstln]

So what mouse are you using?

The MS Natural Wireless Laser Mouse 6000.

[keyb_gr]

The MS Natural Wireless Laser Mouse 6000.

That's quite a mouse-, err, mouthful. Don't these have a super sensitive scroll wheel? I know someone with one of the higher-end wireless MS KB/mouse sets (should be the 6000), and this still bothers him even at sensitivity all the way down.

[itlnstln]

That's quite a mouse-, err, mouthful. Don't these have a super sensitive scroll wheel? I know someone with one of the higher-end wireless MS KB/mouse sets (should be the 6000), and this still bothers him even at sensitivity all the way down.

No. As a matter of fact, I love the scroll-wheel on this thing. I do data analysis, so I scroll through lots of spreadheets, datasets, etc., so the smooth scroll-wheel is very nice (I love the side-to-side scrolling, too). I don't find it any more sensitive than any of the Logitechs I have owned. I have always set my sensitivity to three lines.
 
Now that I think about it, I did have one instance where the scroll-wheel was hyper-sensitive, but a quick rest of the mouse fixed it.

[lowpoly]

Let's make one? Who wants to be the first to post the mod?

This would require custom keycaps and a custom switch pcb.

[keyb_gr]

This would require custom keycaps and a custom switch pcb.

Or make that custom keycaps and two custom switch PCBs with ribbon cable interconnect. Seems like the connection between the two halves (a membrane "ribbon cable") is the weak point in the 4000.

[Jcooper01]

Well, I bought the Northgate OmniKey Evolution and I'll report back.

[itlnstln]

Well, I bought the Northgate OmniKey Evolution and I'll report back.

Good choice.  You will be happy.

[Jcooper01]

So I've been using the Northgate Omnikey Evolution for a few days now and I love it for the most part.  The keys are very tactile (but loud) and have a very solid feel to them.  My coworkers haven't killed me yet, so that's another plus.

The arrow keys are in a non-standard location, but that doesn't bother me as much as I though it would.  I use pipes a lot while typing and, for whatever reason, my hands naturally use the left Shift key, which poses a problem on this keyboard.  I'll just have to unlearn that habit.  

I opted for the version with the Glidepoint trackpad because I figured that having a trackpad would be better than having an empty spot.  It turns out that using the trackpad really helps my RSI.  My only wish is that it were a bit larger in area and that the buttons were on the bottom.  

Does anyone know how difficult it would be to swap this trackpad for a more modern one?

[itlnstln]

So I've been using the Northgate Omnikey Evolution for a few days now and I love it for the most part. The keys are very tactile (but loud) and have a very solid feel to them. My coworkers haven't killed me yet, so that's another plus.
 
The arrow keys are in a non-standard location, but that doesn't bother me as much as I though it would. I use pipes a lot while typing and, for whatever reason, my hands naturally use the left Shift key, which poses a problem on this keyboard. I'll just have to unlearn that habit.
 
I opted for the version with the Glidepoint trackpad because I figured that having a trackpad would be better than having an empty spot. It turns out that using the trackpad really helps my RSI. My only wish is that it were a bit larger in area and that the buttons were on the bottom.
 
Does anyone know how difficult it would be to swap this trackpad for a more modern one?

As long as it fits in the case, I don't think it should be too hard.  You might have to cut the wires on the original and attach them to the new, but other than that, you should be able to make a direct swap.

[iMav]

Has anyone gotten their hands on a SmartBoard from Data Desk Tech?  (and/or is their "SmartBoard 2" shipping at all?)

[wellington1869]

is that the smartboard? how much? looks neat.
looks a bit like the typematrix keyb which puts keys on inside fingers too, tho i think this one is better.

[Rajagra]

I'm considering one of these. I think the layout is utterly brilliant btw. Look how it achieves big reductions in hand travel by moving important stuff to the inside fingers and thumbs. Visually it makes me drool. It is a very interesting design and device.

They SO stole my idea from the which fingers go where thread! :lol:


Seriously though, that looks pretty good.

[rdjack21]

I've been eying that keyboard ever since I saw it in another thread. Thanks for those pictures as well that really helped in finding the manufacture. What just blew me away is that thing has Topre switches (all 45g) in it Wow! But man it is sure not cheap. 52,500 yen + another 9,450 yen for the wrist rest. That makes it what around $576 just for the keyboard. I think I will have to hold off on it for a bit.

webwit are you going to get one? If it really works out as well as it should it just may be worth it.

[wellington1869]

I've been eying that keyboard ever since I saw it in another thread. Thanks for those pictures as well that really helped in finding the manufacture. What just blew me away is that thing has Topre switches in it! Wow. But man it is sure not cheap. 52,500 yen + another 9,450 yen for the wrist rest. That makes it what around $576 just for the keyboard. I think I will have to hold off on it for a bit.

webwit are you going to get one? If it really works out as well as it should it just may be worth it.

this is one of those things where if i had a full time job i'd probably buy it cuz one can always justify these things if one is spending 10 hours a day in front of the keyboard (and have some spare cash). Some employers would subsidize it too cuz its ergo.

[rdjack21]

http://www.personal-media.co.jp/webshop/others/utronkb.html
( links to http://www.personal-media.co.jp/utronkb/ and
http://www.uctec.com/index.html )

I may or may not buy it depending on availability and quotes from japanese buyer services.

And yeah, it's the only ergonomic Topre keyboard in existence.

Wouldn't it be nice if you could go for a walk and buy this in a shop? ...

Show Image

Ah I see you found the thread. And yes it would be nice to take a walk find it in a shop and see if I liked it before droping that kind of money on it. But still it should be a really nice board even if you left if you left flat on the desk.

[lal]

For not even *half* a thousand dollars?  You disappoint me, webwit

[o2dazone]

you're a madman
grats!

[rdh]

Topre switches, a symmetric split key layout, no shortage of modifier keys to play with, no Windows key...  what's not to like?

Well, the price, yeah.

Still, really tempting.  We'll be expecting a full report when you get it, webwit.  :-)

[rdh]

Apparently this keyboard is based on one from 1991:



More info here.  

As usual, the Google translation is amusing: "TRON keyboard has a unique shape of a mound, electronic pen tablet in the center foreground, TRON is a unique and quite unique keyboard sequences."

Unique and quite unique.


EDIT: Oops, meant to use this link.

[rdjack21]

Yes I agree we need a review of it when you get it. And please some good pictures of those keys. The ones on there site give the impression that the keys are sloped differently and have a deferent shape on the top as well. I'm really interested in that board. But I will have to wait a bit before I can get my hands on one.

[rdjack21]

For not even *half* a thousand dollars?  You disappoint me, webwit

Why? I know you dislike Topre switches but still. Besides he already has a few boards that are even more expensive.

[rdjack21]

Apparently this keyboard is based on one from 1991:

Show Image

More info here.  

As usual, the Google translation is amusing: "TRON keyboard has a unique shape of a mound, electronic pen tablet in the center foreground, TRON is a unique and quite unique keyboard sequences."

Unique and quite unique.


EDIT: Oops, meant to use this link.

That is actually kind of interesting as well.

Check this out

○ good typing feel comfortable to use

  Price of PC keyboards are much cheaper and popular. Now find the keyboard difficult to use even for a bad touch. "ΜTRON keyboard" is good and reliability of touch, the keyboard is used for operations that require durability, using a noncontact capacitive switches. 押SHI付KENAKU it is possible to enter the key to the bottom, allowing light to enter in less shock to the finger touch. The keyboard is a price fall into the category of high prices, the products you use something like永KU favorite pen.

So they used Topre switches on this one as well. But I have to say I like the new one better. Oh and the last part is just great. "The Keyboard is a price fall into the category of high prices" that just cracks me up.

[lal]

Why? I know you dislike Topre switches but still. Besides he already has a few boards that are even more expensive.

That was exactly the joke.  This board is not webwit's class.

BTW, I don't know if I would like Topre switches or not.  Probably not, but that doesn't matter.  My point is that I consider them as relatives of oxygen free cables and other audiophile stuff in that they cost a fortune while not providing a real advantage over standard products.

[wellington1869]

BTW, I don't know if I would like Topre switches or not.  .

lal, as a fellow bs fan, my guess is you wouldnt like them. I mean look what happened to me. when I first got them i was intrigued, for about 2 weeks. I'm back on the endurapro now, pretty much full time (to my own surprise, i thought the infatuation with topres would last longer).

I mean dont get me wrong, for the class of switch that topres are, they are probably the best in their class (ie, fairly light and relatively silent). But those who like bs switches are, i think, of another genre altogether. Its harder to just switch genres. I've always liked 'meaty' and clicky.  ANd in that class I'd say bs's are the best, for me anyway.

(Esp with minor mods that have made them usable for me -- unicomp's slighlty lighter spring (I still think taht is the case anyway), a spot of silicon dry spray on the stems (I'm pretty sure my key resistance on the endurapro is around 60g now, which seems fine to me, I may not even need them to be 55), and a spot of silicon grease to take just a slight touch of the sound off (making them useable with my roommates around, they havent complained anymore). Perfection.

Like webwit, if I hang on to my topres, it'll be to use when I'm working in mixed company, or at work, or with people who are studying or sleeping. I do still think in their class the topres are the best, and thats maybe a reason for keeping it if I already have it, but I think it wouldnt be a reason to buy it if I didnt have it.

[rdjack21]

My point is that I consider them as relatives of oxygen free cables and other audiophile stuff in that they cost a fortune while not providing a real advantage over standard products.

Oh man I'm in trouble now. While I agree with you on the oxygen free cables I would not agree that all audiophile stuff is not worth while. And yes I do happen to own some audiophile stuff as well. And I do have to agree that the Topre switch is not for everyone and you may be right with your comparison of the Topre with audiophile stuff. In that in both cases it is the search for perfection in a particular category. Even though we can't quite reach perfection it is pretty darn close. And it is also true that most people are just fine with the consumer level junk. But here on this board we are about moving up the food chain to something a little more refined. And even in this more refined category there are levels of refinement and the associated costs that are inherent in moving further up the chain. So you have the consumer level junk (cheap) then you have the standard mechanical boards (more expensive and more refined) then you have various categories of even more refined boards that cost more. Some want that refinement others are just fine where they are. Then their are those that just had to see was that next step up the ladder really worth it or not. Of those some found it not worth the asciated cost to move up the ladder and there are those that decided that it was worth it for what ever reason (that's me).

I have also stated many times if you are happy with what you have then there is really no reason to try a Topre board. But if on the other hand you have tried all the switches and feel that there is still something missing then you should at least give it a try. True you may not like it but then again you may.

[wellington1869]

btw lal, i wound up putting the trackpoint nipple back on my endurapro. It was pretty easy to put it back in.
For some reason its not bothering me as much as it used to, maybe my fingers have just gotten used to it from my ultranav keyboard. I rather like having it now.

must be the ultranav that influenced me.

[lal]

Interesting.  Maybe I should try an Endurapro again.  Aah, those times

No, seriously, it's tenkeyless exclusively now for me.  I have 2 M minis, the Filco mini with blues and soon another with white XMs.  All very tactile and very clicky.  When I have some (I mean, a lot) cash over and I'm bored I'll maybe get a HHKBP, just to be one with cup rubber once in my life

[Jcooper01]

So I just wanted to post a quick follow-up to my prior post about the Northgate Evolution.  Unfortunately, I think that it has aggravated my carpal tunnel (the opposite effect I was going for, obviously).  I think I need to switch back to the MS Natural 4000.  The keyforce on Alps switches is hurting me more than I anticipated.  If anyone has any other ideas, I'd be grateful (essentially a MS Natural 4000 with Cherry browns).

[timw4mail]

So I just wanted to post a quick follow-up to my prior post about the Northgate Evolution.  Unfortunately, I think that it has aggravated my carpal tunnel (the opposite effect I was going for, obviously).  I think I need to switch back to the MS Natural 4000.  The keyforce on Alps switches is hurting me more than I anticipated.  If anyone has any other ideas, I'd be grateful (essentially a MS Natural 4000 with Cherry browns).

I'd just go to a Compaq MX11800, and if you aren't still hurting, don't worry about an "ergonomic" layout.

[Jcooper01]

Unfortunately, I do need an ergonomic layout.  I have wide shoulders and need the separation between the two sides.

[spremino]

Splitted standard keyboards are just ergonomic wannabes.

The One True Ergonomic Keyboard, designed to fit our hands, is the Maltron. A specialized ergonomic and efficient layout is available with it, too.

Sadly, a compatible flat keyboard for notebooks is not available, otherwise I'd already made the switch.

BS, mechanical switches... just lipstick on the lips of an otherwise nasty keyboard design.

[lowpoly]

Splitted standard keyboards are just ergonomic wannabes.

The One True Ergonomic Keyboard, designed to fit our hands, is the Maltron. A specialized ergonomic and efficient layout is available with it, too.

Sadly, a compatible flat keyboard for notebooks is not available, otherwise I'd already made the switch.

BS, mechanical switches... just lipstick on the lips of an otherwise nasty keyboard design.

One thing I don't get with the Maltron is: the two typing areas are closer together than the average shoulder width. Meaning your forearms will not be parallel thus forcing you to bend your wrists outwards for the fingers to be in line with the non-staggered keys. But bending the wrist is generally considered un-ergonomic?

[spremino]

One thing I don't get with the Maltron is: the two typing areas are closer together than the average shoulder width. Meaning your forearms will not be parallel thus forcing you to bend your wrists outwards for the fingers to be in line with the non-staggered keys. But bending the wrist is generally considered un-ergonomic?

Maybe you haven't seen a side view of the keys. Your palms are not expected to lay horizontally, but to rest in a naturally inwardly "bent" position. Look at figures 6 and 7 here:

http://www.maltron.com/recognitia/script.html

[lowpoly]

Yes, I've seen this. It doesn't change what I said though.

From the same page:

Show Image

Fig. 1 Hand abduction at a common keyboard

The outward turning of the wrists, sometimes to an extreme extent as shown in Fig. 1, requires a sustained muscle tension in the arms to hold the hands in the normal typing position.

With staggered keys you don't have to bend your wrists outward like the pic shows. That's exactly why the keys are staggered. Kind of false advertising using the pic like that. And ironically, this is how you have to hold your hands with a non-staggered 'board. Admittedly, not as extreme with the Maltron.

I'm sure at the end of the day all this doesn't matter much because ergonomic research is a soft science like webwit once said. Just trying to point out a flaw in logic here.

[lowpoly]

Maybe you haven't seen a side view of the keys. Your palms are not expected to lay horizontally, but to rest in a naturally inwardly "bent" position. Look at figures 6 and 7 here:

Ah, took a while, but I get it now. If your palms are not parallel to the desk then some of the things I said don't apply.

[spremino]

With staggered keys you don't have to bend your wrists outward like the pic shows.

Agreed. OTOH, I remember having seen some typing tutor instructing you to do like that. Maybe I'm wrong.

That's exactly why the keys are staggered.

Sadly, that's not the case. At least the left side keys would staggered the wrong way, then.

Keyboard keys are staggered because keys on typewriter were staggered, and the latter were staggered for mechanical reason, not ergonomic ones.

I'm sure at the end of the day all this doesn't matter much because ergonomic research is a soft science like webwit once said. Just trying to point out a flaw in logic here.

Agreed. OTOH, a keyboard which follows human hands conformation is obviously better than one which mimics surpassed mechanical tools.

A note for the curious: an ergonomic keyboard was designed for the piano, too:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janko_keyboard

[timw4mail]

Funny, I try to keep my wrists as straight as possible, and I don't usually have much, if any soreness or pain on my regular old rectangular layout keyboards...

Of course, it's helpful to have your keyboard farther away to minimize bending of the wrists.

I've had sore wrists after using "ergonomic" rubber dome keyboard, so I can't say I'm the biggest fan of them.

[rdh]

A note for the curious: an ergonomic keyboard was designed for the piano, too:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janko_keyboard

Very cool, I hadn't heard of that before.  It sounds like it was intended to be a more logical layout, though, not a more ergonomic one.

[JBert]

Sadly, that's not the case. At least the left side keys would staggered the wrong way, then.

Keyboard keys are staggered because keys on typewriter were staggered, and the latter were staggered for mechanical reason, not ergonomic ones.

Well, there is a fix for European keyboards: simply shift the bottom row one key to the left starting with the B key.

The uTron keyboard must be one of those few modern keyboards to do this.

[spremino]

It sounds like it was intended to be a more logical layout, though, not a more ergonomic one.

Right, I misused the adjective "ergonomic".

[spremino]

Who says you can't teach an old dog new tricks?

Show Image

Left side, european way and right side, US...

What's that?

[Rajagra]

With staggered keys you don't have to bend your wrists outward like the pic shows. That's exactly why the keys are staggered. Kind of false advertising using the pic like that. And ironically, this is how you have to hold your hands with a non-staggered 'board. Admittedly, not as extreme with the Maltron.

I think you are underestimating the hand separation when using the [strike]Behemoth[/strike] Maltron. Judging by this picture you have >11 key widths between index fingers, compared to 2 on a normal keyboard.

That's like moving your right hand so the index finger is on the 4 key on the numeric pad of a normal board. Try it, the wrist angle is negligible - you can keep the wrists straight and finger movement will take care of any misalignment.

[hyperlinked]

Of course, it's helpful to have your keyboard farther away to minimize bending of the wrists.

Your keyboard isn't supposed to be far away though. Your ideal upper body posture is the same as when you're standing up as you're sitting down. If you feel most comfortable with your elbows elevated 45 degrees forward in front of you when you're on your feet, then I guess that's your ideal keyboarding posture.

That's a joke of course. Unless you have some unusual anatomical restrictions or mobility problems, your arms are down by your side. That means if you're sitting, your arms should be bent at an angle to allow you to keep your elbows in approximately the same position as when you're standing.

With good posture, you also don't need to have quite as extreme of an angle in your wrists to put your fingers straight on the keys. A lot of people sit in these great big chairs and put their elbows on the widely spaced armrests. That increases the angle that you either need to bend your wrists or contort your fingers to compensate.

Now, you're correct that moving your keyboard out farther may reduce stress on your wrists, but what you're doing is shifting the ergonomic stress to another part of your body. In exchange for your adjustment, you'll probably put more strain on your neck, shoulders, or your low back. If you have wonky wrists, it may not be a bad tradeoff, but it is indeed a tradeoff and not really a "better" technique.

[timw4mail]

In exchange for your adjustment, you'll probably put more strain on your neck, shoulders, or your low back. If you have wonky wrists, it may not be a bad tradeoff, but it is indeed a tradeoff and not really a "better" technique.

Really, I don't put my keyboard that far away, but tend to take a middle of the road approach, so it doesn't feel that unnatural.

As I don't generally have soreness, I don't worry about it too much.

[lowpoly]

Sadly, that's not the case. At least the left side keys would staggered the wrong way, then.

Keyboard keys are staggered because keys on typewriter were staggered, and the latter were staggered for mechanical reason, not ergonomic ones.

Good points. This could also explain why the asd and zxc rows have a 50% offset and the asd and qwe rows only 30%. Something I've always wondered about.

I think you are underestimating the hand separation when using the [strike]Behemoth[/strike] Maltron. Judging by this picture you have >11 key widths between index fingers, compared to 2 on a normal keyboard.

Still, the lower arms would not be parallel but it looks like that's not necessary.

[Rajagra]

That's why you guys (not me) are typing on this design

Webwit is a highly evolved typist. He has six fingers on each hand, and controls the mouse with his mind:

[maxlugar]

Webwit is a highly evolved typist. He has six fingers on each hand, and controls the mouse with his mind:
QUOTE]

Yeah, he's like that freak in the movie Total Recall!

[wellington1869]

in soviet russia, keyboard types you!

[hyperlinked]

They had to stagger this way to get even spacing for the transmission bars attached to the keys. Keyboard manufacturers could stagger any damn way they pleased to.  Chickens.

I learned to type on these human powered marvels of type! There's something to be said about the satisfying feel of making a sharp strike on a full mechanical typewriter and hearing the typearm whip up and thud onto a sheet of paper. There's also something to be said about how much harder they were on your hands.

One has to image the kind of hand strength it would take to pull off the stunt that Jack Kerouac did when he went on his famous continuous typing binge that resulted in the manuscript of "On the Road" in 20 days on a 120 foot long roll of paper.

[Jcooper01]

I don't think I would have lasted long programming on a mechanical typewriter back then.

[lowpoly]

There was a thread lately here in 'keyboards' that had a pic of which finger goes where. Anybody remember the thread title?

[Rajagra]

There was mine, and a few others I think.

[lowpoly]

That was the one, thanks.

[JBert]

Who says you can't teach an old dog new tricks?
[Pic of DIY international IBM mini]

There was mine, and a few others I think.

As good a fix as this may be, last night it occurred to me that this doesn't work for me: typewriters were designed with the mechanical things in mind and not ergonomics; as a result, we're left with a keyboard that is made for people with two right hands (the document webwit linked, "Why Qwerty?", describes this problem in the conclusion).

To make matters interesting, Qwerty even gives the left hand more work even when the key layout is rather unnatural for that hand. The layout can be replaced with Colemak, but the underlying problem remains: it is harder to type with the left hand due to the way the keys are shifted relative to each other. I can't stop wondering what this would mean for Dvorak...


On another note, I recalled that the expensive μTRON keyboard shifted the bottom row. When I took another look at some pictures today, it occurred to me that they also got rid of this "shifting problem" by making two symmetrical keyboard halves. Impressive!

Quite frankly, I doubt there are many slanted keyboards doing this - the Kinesis Freestyle doesn't do it for sure.

[Rajagra]

I'm going to call it the chevron correction.

The odd thing about normal boards is the way the keys are staggered. E.g. each of the following keys is 1/4 key width (3/16") to the right of the one before in the sequence:

QA2ZWS3XED4CRF5VTG6BYH7NUJ8MIK9,...

Couldn't they just have used:
1QAZ2WSX3EDC...

[spremino]

To make matters interesting, Qwerty even gives the left hand more work even when the key layout is rather unnatural for that hand. The layout can be replaced with Colemak, but the underlying problem remains: it is harder to type with the left hand due to the way the keys are shifted relative to each other. I can't stop wondering what this would mean for Dvorak...

Dvorak user here.

I think Dvorak thought about this issue, too, because with his layout your left hand hardly moves, and the most common required movements (typing punctuation) are comfortable ones (home row to top row).

[hyperlinked]

I don't think I would have lasted long programming on a mechanical typewriter back then.

It would have also been pretty hard to execute any of the code you wrote too.

[timw4mail]

It would have also been pretty hard to execute any of the code you wrote too.

Funny thing is, it probably wouldn't be too difficult to do that now, with a scanner and OCR.

[mechakeyzilla]

So I just wanted to post a quick follow-up to my prior post about the Northgate Evolution.  Unfortunately, I think that it has aggravated my carpal tunnel (the opposite effect I was going for, obviously).  I think I need to switch back to the MS Natural 4000.  The keyforce on Alps switches is hurting me more than I anticipated.  If anyone has any other ideas, I'd be grateful (essentially a MS Natural 4000 with Cherry browns).

this is a wierd suggestion, but since you said you have wide shoulders, who knows.. you may like this.. if you buy two cherry brown usb filcos, you can plug them both in, and have one hand on one keyboard and one on the other. You can of course orient either keyboard any which way for the best ergo. Both keyboards will work, and if you hit the shift on one keyboard and the "a" key on the other, it will type an "A". The ctrl and alt keys will also function correctly in this manner.
if they are too far apart for you then perhaps you can rig one to be elevated and the other slides underneath it partially so they get closer together. you can adjust the arm rests on your chair to compensate for the height difference.

happy hacking keyboards or some similarly tiny keyboard could be used instead to get them closer to each other. I dont know if the happy hacking has a cherry brown option, or if there is some other tiny keyboard with a cherry brown option.

[mechakeyzilla]

So I just wanted to post a quick follow-up to my prior post about the Northgate Evolution.  Unfortunately, I think that it has aggravated my carpal tunnel (the opposite effect I was going for, obviously).  I think I need to switch back to the MS Natural 4000.  The keyforce on Alps switches is hurting me more than I anticipated.  If anyone has any other ideas, I'd be grateful (essentially a MS Natural 4000 with Cherry browns).

this is a wierd suggestion, but since you said you have wide shoulders, who knows.. you may like this.. if you buy two cherry brown usb filcos, you can plug them both in, and have one hand on one keyboard and one on the other. You can of course orient either keyboard any which way for the best ergo. Both keyboards will work, and if you hit the shift on one keyboard and the "a" key on the other, it will type an "A". The ctrl and alt keys will also function correctly in this manner.
if they are too far apart for you then perhaps you can rig one to be elevated and the other slides underneath it partially so they get closer together. you can adjust the arm rests on your chair to compensate for the height difference.

happy hacking keyboards or some similarly tiny keyboard could be used instead to get them closer to each other. I dont know if the happy hacking has a cherry brown option, or if there is some other tiny keyboard with a cherry brown option.

[keyboardlover]

Wow, a 2 yr old post necro! Welcome to Geekhack!

There's a possibility that user doesn't hang around here much anymore. You might want to send them a PM.

[Jcooper01]

Oh, I'm still here all right

I appreciate the suggestion -- it just seems like a bit of an unstable setup (that takes a lot of desk space).

Have there been any other new keyboards released that have the layout of the MS Natural 4000 but with mechanical switches?

[jpc]

Try a Kinesis Contoured. It has ergonomic low-force brown cherries.

[Input Nirvana]

Ditto, that's about it. I'm trying to improve a Kinesis (see my sig), and let me tell you, it's pretty difficult. They have thought of almost everything.

[Jcooper01]

I actually ordered a Kinesis Contoured at the beginning of this thread and found that it was unacceptable for my job.  I'm a programmer, and we work with a proprietary programming language.  The IDE requires the heavy use of F-keys with multiple modifiers (Ctrl/Shift/Alt combinations) and the F-keys on this keyboard are just plain horrible (in my opinion).  They are rubberized chicklets and I could not do my job adequately with the keyboard.  For normal word processing, it was great, though.

[Arcanius]

Maybe.... hope for the Truly Ergonomic? You never know...

[Input Nirvana]

Maybe.... hope for the Truly Ergonomic? You never know...

You are sooo silly!!  lol


Yes, the F-keys are one of the few drawbacks. I replaced one with cherry browns and keycaps (in my sig!!), and it's absolutely perfect.

[Arcanius]

I said hope, not wait.
How hard is it to pull out the Fkeys and add in Cherry switches?

[Input Nirvana]

I said hope, not wait.
How hard is it to pull out the Fkeys and add in Cherry switches?

Ok, good. I was about to ask if you were TE's brother. lol


I think it is overall medium, but involved:

1-remove existing keys. Easy.
2-measure and cut holes for 12 of 18 switches. Medium.
3-insert switches and hot glue for security. Easy.
4- replace ans hot glue for security. Easy.
5-hand wire switches to main pcb. Medium and involved.
6-remaining 6 switches need to be placed elsewhere. Medium/hard and involved.

You will retain all Kinesis functionality. It's slick.

[sordna]

I actually ordered a Kinesis Contoured at the beginning of this thread and found that it was unacceptable for my job.  I'm a programmer, and we work with a proprietary programming language.  The IDE requires the heavy use of F-keys with multiple modifiers (Ctrl/Shift/Alt combinations) and the F-keys on this keyboard are just plain horrible (in my opinion).  They are rubberized chicklets and I could not do my job adequately with the keyboard.  For normal word processing, it was great, though.

You can use the 2nd layer on the kinesis to remap the regular number keys as function keys. += and _- can be F11, F12.
A footswitch works very nice for reaching the 2nd layer momentarily.
Also, avoid one-handed key combos.  Once you start using both hands, you'll see it's actually comfortable and fast!

[Lanx]

Oh, I'm still here all right

I appreciate the suggestion -- it just seems like a bit of an unstable setup (that takes a lot of desk space).

Have there been any other new keyboards released that have the layout of the MS Natural 4000 but with mechanical switches?

only privately
http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:12439&do=comments

that's still unfinished btw, the working beta version is really ugly but works like a charm.

[Input Nirvana]

You can use the 2nd layer on the kinesis to remap the regular number keys as function keys. += and _- can be F11, F12.
A footswitch works very nice for reaching the 2nd layer momentarily.
Also, avoid one-handed key combos.  Once you start using both hands, you'll see it's actually comfortable and fast!

And with the macros that are available, a lot can be made simpler. Even short key combinations can often be made into easier combinations.

[jumpfroggy]

only privately
http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:12439&do=comments
that's still unfinished btw, the working beta version is really ugly but works like a charm.

I was actually just searching for that to post it.  Seems like for typists that need a completely standard layout but with an ergonomic twist, the ergo4k is just about perfect.  Except for the incredibly awful switches.  The mechanical conversion mod on that board seems like a perfect solution - I've wanted to do that since I first tried the board years & years ago, and I actually have a NIB one sitting in my closet, waiting.  I just have to find a donor board, but I'm waiting to see if I want blues or browns more.

[Lanx]

i detailed as much as i could in that mod, truthfully it could be "completed" in a day if i took out "ALOT" of extras (which i want to keep) heck, half of the mods is "making it look pretty" which i didn't care for but ppl really said my current ergo 4k mod v1 is so damned ugly they shamed me. You do learn a lot of "skills" lol if you don't have em already. Check out the cherry board i got for donor boards, i got the same exact model and they were like 25ish, not bad for 120ish cherry browns just put in g80-8200 into your ebay search and have them mail you updates. IDK what blues are cheap donor boards, maybe horrible iscopus or those other badly soldered boards for 50bucks.

oh and don't forget about the controller, i really couldn't figure out a way to solder leads to the microsoft 4k controller since it was like only circuit boarded connected and had that layer of like wax or enamel over it, teensy woulda been cool.

[jumpfroggy]

i detailed as much as i could in that mod, truthfully it could be "completed" in a day if i took out "ALOT" of extras (which i want to keep) heck, half of the mods is "making it look pretty" which i didn't care for but ppl really said my current ergo 4k mod v1 is so damned ugly they shamed me. You do learn a lot of "skills" lol if you don't have em already. Check out the cherry board i got for donor boards, i got the same exact model and they were like 25ish, not bad for 120ish cherry browns just put in g80-8200 into your ebay search and have them mail you updates. IDK what blues are cheap donor boards, maybe horrible iscopus or those other badly soldered boards for 50bucks.

oh and don't forget about the controller, i really couldn't figure out a way to solder leads to the microsoft 4k controller since it was like only circuit boarded connected and had that layer of like wax or enamel over it, teensy woulda been cool.

Interesting!  How would you have done the quick & ugly version?  IIRC, you did custom PCB's for the switches to get a grid-style layout.  If you didn't care about the grid style, would you have been able to just cut a circuit board in half and mount them on the ergo4k's inclined halves?  Just curious.

[Lanx]

yup, here's the link to my first (and current) mod, basically just cut a pcb board in half lol
http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:10510

it's not as detailed as the v2 mod, but it doesn't really have to be since everything is done just to fully replace the keys with browns, so it really is ugly but 100% functionally perfect (if you like the microsoft 4k layout).