Ergonomic mechanical keyboard

[afton]

From searching the old threads, it seems to be that the only
one in existence is the very rare IBM M15 split keyboard.

What I'm more interested is the MS Natural Ergo 4000 layout style
http://www.microsoft.com/hardware/mouseandkeyboard/productdetails.aspx?pid=043 but with mechanical switches.

I haven't found any so far. Would it be good if we start lobbying
manufacturers to produce one (so they're convinced that there's
a market for it). Any other keyboard enthusiasts interested?

I'm thinking of Das and I have emailed them whether they have
any intention of building an ergo version of their Professional model, their reply was  
"We do not disclose information on future design plans, but we invite you to check our website and blog for updates."

[ch_123]

There's also the Northgate Omnikey Revolution, which is also quite rare AFAIK, but not as expensive as the M15.

"We do not disclose information on future design plans, but we invite you to check our website and blog for updates."

Gotta love them bull**** marketing answers

[afton]

Gotta love them bull**** marketing answers

LOL yeah I know, but rather than viewing them as some profiterring
gluttons, I'm more of the view of working together to achieve a win-win
situations hehe. I'm pretty sure the Das people are scouring forums
like this for reviews and future design ideas.

If they perceive that enough people out there are interested (read:
money), no doubt they will be making it.

[afton]

Have you looked at Kinesis?

I have, they don't specify it on their website. Are they using
mechanical switches for their keyboards?

[ch_123]

I'm pretty sure the Das people are scouring forums
like this for reviews and future design ideas.

I'd like to think so, the general consensus around here is that the Das 3 is a turkey... low build quality and some serious issues with the controller that cause it to register unpressed keys at random.That said, if they do in fact read some of these forums, I wouldnt be surprised if the Das 4 turned out exactly like this -



Complete with crude red crosses.

Christ, I'm turning into Ripster... =P

[afton]

I'd like to think so, the general consensus around here is that the Das 3 is a turkey... low build quality

.
edit: moved post to the other thread for clarity.

[iggysaps]

Im pretty sure the kinesis contoured uses brown cherries.  And it is about the price of a Topre Realforce or an HHKB Pro.

http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/images/kb_adv-blk720x471.jpg

[ch_123]

Ignore this post.

[kyamei]

No G80-5000 mentions?  Not that it's any cheaper or easier to get than the other options.

[ch_123]

I was going to point it out, then I forgot it's model number... Thought that they were expensive too?

[rdh]

Im pretty sure the kinesis contoured uses brown cherries.  And it is about the price of a Topre Realforce or an HHKB Pro.

http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/images/kb_adv-blk720x471.jpg

Yup, browns:



It's more: The Advantage is $300 in Kinesis' online store, though they also have a refurbished one for $240.

Ergonomic input devices are often pricey -- I think they expect you to get your employer to buy it for you.  I like the idea behind Matias' half-keyboard but they'll never see my money, since they insist on pricing it at $600 (!)


EDIT: They have three models that allow half-keyboard typing, including one with ALPS switches.  All three are $600.

[jumpfroggy]

Wow, this is really strange... I literally just came to geekhack to search for "ergonomic mechanical keyboards" because I wanted to know if anyone had hacked a MS ergo 4000, and the first result was this thread.  Freaky.

I use a Majestouch Filco right now (with the browns... tactile, no click).  I love it, beats any membrane keyboard (though I haven't tried any other mechanicals yet).  However, I did at one point buy the MS 4000 and I loved certain aspects, but hated others.

I've used the MS natural (the second version, forget how many there were) and found it nice, but not amazing.  Better for the hands than a normal keyboard, but when it broke I didn't really miss it.  However, the 4000's key layout was amazing... it felt so natural, it really was just how my hands wanted to rest & type.  However, the worst part about the keyboard was the switches... not just mushy, but hard to press as well.  They used the worst membrane switches.  Then the spacebar, it had no metal bar (to keep it from binding), and it was very wide and flexible, so it bound up all the time and was incredibly annoying to use.  So I hated the keyboard, but going back to a normal straight layout after 2 days of use was hard.  I remember thinking that if they ever fixed the switches, that would be the best keyboard I'd ever seen.

I keep seeing sales for the 4000, Newegg just had it for $25 shipped (sold out now), and every time I just keep thinking "If they just had better switches, I'd buy 2 in a heartbeat!"  So how about it?  Has anyone tried to take a normal keyboard and transplant mechanical switches?  How about an ergonomic keyboard?  Is it monetarily feasible?  Digikey sells all types of Cherry key switches, and the browns (I think) are about $.96/ea in the quantities I'd need (http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=CH310-ND).  Is this as crazy as it sounds, or is there something to this?

Given a cheap supply of mechanical switches, and a lot of boredom/extra-time, this would make a neat project.  If successful, it would truly be one amazing keyboard.  What do you guys think?

[iggysaps]

Well just about as expensive.  Ive seen one for 269 from ergoworks.  Still more expensive than the HHKB pro, by around 30 dollars.

[afton]

However, the 4000's key layout was amazing... it felt so natural, it really was just how my hands wanted to rest & type.  However, the worst part about the keyboard was the switches... not just mushy, but hard to press as well.

Welcome jumpfroggy! I've only just joined today as well, and was quite
pleasantly surprised that there's an actual specific forum for keyboards, kudos to the founders.
I'd imagine in a few years there're going to be copycat forums, probably
more specialised, like "ergonomic wireless mechanical keyboard" lol

Has anyone tried to take a normal keyboard and transplant mechanical switches?

I haven't but that's exactly my intention as well! to transplant Cherry switches to an MS Ergo 4000.
Or how about we lobby Microsoft to create one? :crazy:

[jumpfroggy]

I haven't but that's exactly my intention as well! to transplant Cherry switches to an MS Ergo 4000.

Hmm... how serious are you about this?  If the newegg sale wasn't OOS, I'd be tempted to buy one and a couple of cherry switches and see if it's feasible.  The only problem is that there doesn't seem to be a real cheap source for the switches.  At about $1/ea, that means a typical keyboard will need $100+ just for switches, even if you ignore some of the lesser keys (like the multimedia keys).  But if it did work, I think it'd be worth it.

So there's the obvious question of "Can it be done?"  But there's also the question if it's worth it.  There are other mechanical ergonomics out there, so we have to ask why we'd hack this together.  Is the 4000 really worth the effort?  I know the layout felt amazing, but maybe if I'd tried some of the other ergo boards people had mentioned then I'd think that there are better keyboards out there.  I don't know.

Or how about we lobby Microsoft to create one? :crazy:

They created a really neat, really nice looking ergo keyboard with the worst switches known to man and a (looking for the right word) insanely idiotic spacebar.  They're not worried at all about niche users, esp. for things like this.  I think we're on our own.

So, did you order one yet?  Got pics of the switches with the keys removed?  Next time I'm at staples, I'll take a peek (they always have the 4000 at office supply stores)

[lowpoly]

The only problem is that there doesn't seem to be a real cheap source for the switches.

You can harvest switches from used 'boards you buy on ebay. But it's definitiely not your only problem.

[Rajagra]

Nobody has mentioned Maltron. They use Cherry MX switches (black, but maybe others are an option?) They are probably the second most expensive ergo boards around (after the Datahand), but if I had RSI cost would be an extremely low priority. They've been around since 1977, I think they know their stuff.

[itlnstln]

There's also the Northgate Omnikey Revolution

For clarification, it's the Evolution.  They're pretty easy to find.  You can find them at Northgate-keyboard-repair.com.  There is also the Smartboard from Datadesk.

[skriefal]

There's also the Chicony KB-7001 and the Pace Adjustable Keyboard.  White Alps or Alps clones in both of these.

[skriefal]

Niiiiiice.

Show Image

Yep.  I have one here.  It was a nice little eBay "find" from last year; about $50 instead of the usual $250-$300.  It's a nice design and good build quality, but the height of the board prevents its use in a keyboard tray... and even makes it difficult to use on the desk, without lowering the desk top to a level that makes other things (mouse/trackball) too low.

[lal]

Yep.  I have one [Pace Adjustable Keyboard] here.

You owe us a review!  Seriously.  Please.

[itlnstln]

Yep. I have one here. It was a nice little eBay "find" from last year; about $50 instead of the usual $250-$300. It's a nice design and good build quality, but the height of the board prevents its use in a keyboard tray... and even makes it difficult to use on the desk, without lowering the desk top to a level that makes other things (mouse/trackball) too low.

That's good to know.  I was just about to start scouring eBay for one, but now that you mentioned the height issues (and I don't really care for Alps much anymore), I decided to pass.

[skriefal]

I'll try to get some better photos of the Pace, along with the dimensions and more comments on the board itself.  Can perhaps post this as a "review" of sorts whenever it's ready.

[Xuan]

I don't think it actually exists, as those pics are renders. But looks promising though

[Jcooper01]

I literally just stumbled across this forum too (using the same search terms as the poster above).  I purchased the Kinesis Advantage keyboard a few weeks ago because it seemed to be the most highly recommended mechanical ergonomic keyboard out there.  I'm a software developer and I've found the Advantage to be extremely comfortable for typing plain text.  However, I also need to use modifier key combinations with F-keys in the programming environment I use.  I've fond a combination like Ctrl+Shift+F7 to be nearly impossible on this keyboard.  The other disappointment is that while nearly all the keys are Cherry browns, the F-keys are crazy tiny rubber keys (like on a TV remote control).  So, while I like the comfort the Advantage offers, I'm going to return it and search for a new keyboard.  I'm tempted by the Northgate Ergonomic Evolution, but I'm concerned by the lack of tenting (I have bad carpal tunnel).  Has anyone with CT used the Evolution?  Any other recommendations for me?  I really appreciate the input!

[keyb_gr]

Take a look at the Maltron boards, maybe you'd like that layout better.

[Jcooper01]

Thanks, I'll take a look. I forgot to mention in my post that I currently use a MS Natural 4000. I like the layout but hate the keys.

[afton]

Thanks, I'll take a look. I forgot to mention in my post that I currently use a MS Natural 4000. I like the layout but hate the keys.

Same!

[itlnstln]

Thanks, I'll take a look. I forgot to mention in my post that I currently use a MS Natural 4000. I like the layout but hate the keys.

 
I feel you.  An MS Natural 4000 with Cherry browns would be money.

[afton]

An MS Natural 4000 with Cherry browns would be money.

Let's make one? Who wants to be the first to post the mod?

[Jcooper01]

I think that the Maltron will have some of the same issues as the Kinesis (unless I'm not looking at the one you meant).  Anyone have any feedback on the Northgate Evolution?

[itlnstln]

Anyone have any feedback on the Northgate Evolution?

Why yes, I do.
 
Great keyboard.  It's worth every penny you spend on it.  It should last you the rest of your natural life and can be used as a weapon on anyone or anything that should want to end your life prematurely.  The only downside is that it is incredibly loud.  I would highly suggest that you buy one along with an AEKII or SGI 'board (a broken, "parts only" keyboards would be perfect for this).  Both of those have sliders with dampers which are very quiet.  Replace the siders in the Northgate with the dampened ones from the donor keyboard.  There are detailed instructions how to modify Alps switches in the Mods forum.

[Jcooper01]

Do you have wrist problems?  Does the flatness of the Northgate bother you at all?

[itlnstln]

The flatness of the Northgate is perfect.  I never raise the back of my keyboards.  I don't use the Northgate much anymore sue to noise, though.  I used to have wrist problems, but I found out it mainly due to my mouse not my keyboard.

[Jcooper01]

So what mouse are you using?

[itlnstln]

So what mouse are you using?

The MS Natural Wireless Laser Mouse 6000.

[keyb_gr]

The MS Natural Wireless Laser Mouse 6000.

That's quite a mouse-, err, mouthful. Don't these have a super sensitive scroll wheel? I know someone with one of the higher-end wireless MS KB/mouse sets (should be the 6000), and this still bothers him even at sensitivity all the way down.

[itlnstln]

That's quite a mouse-, err, mouthful. Don't these have a super sensitive scroll wheel? I know someone with one of the higher-end wireless MS KB/mouse sets (should be the 6000), and this still bothers him even at sensitivity all the way down.

No. As a matter of fact, I love the scroll-wheel on this thing. I do data analysis, so I scroll through lots of spreadheets, datasets, etc., so the smooth scroll-wheel is very nice (I love the side-to-side scrolling, too). I don't find it any more sensitive than any of the Logitechs I have owned. I have always set my sensitivity to three lines.
 
Now that I think about it, I did have one instance where the scroll-wheel was hyper-sensitive, but a quick rest of the mouse fixed it.

[lowpoly]

Let's make one? Who wants to be the first to post the mod?

This would require custom keycaps and a custom switch pcb.

[keyb_gr]

This would require custom keycaps and a custom switch pcb.

Or make that custom keycaps and two custom switch PCBs with ribbon cable interconnect. Seems like the connection between the two halves (a membrane "ribbon cable") is the weak point in the 4000.

[Jcooper01]

Well, I bought the Northgate OmniKey Evolution and I'll report back.

[itlnstln]

Well, I bought the Northgate OmniKey Evolution and I'll report back.

Good choice.  You will be happy.

[Jcooper01]

So I've been using the Northgate Omnikey Evolution for a few days now and I love it for the most part.  The keys are very tactile (but loud) and have a very solid feel to them.  My coworkers haven't killed me yet, so that's another plus.

The arrow keys are in a non-standard location, but that doesn't bother me as much as I though it would.  I use pipes a lot while typing and, for whatever reason, my hands naturally use the left Shift key, which poses a problem on this keyboard.  I'll just have to unlearn that habit.  

I opted for the version with the Glidepoint trackpad because I figured that having a trackpad would be better than having an empty spot.  It turns out that using the trackpad really helps my RSI.  My only wish is that it were a bit larger in area and that the buttons were on the bottom.  

Does anyone know how difficult it would be to swap this trackpad for a more modern one?

[itlnstln]

So I've been using the Northgate Omnikey Evolution for a few days now and I love it for the most part. The keys are very tactile (but loud) and have a very solid feel to them. My coworkers haven't killed me yet, so that's another plus.
 
The arrow keys are in a non-standard location, but that doesn't bother me as much as I though it would. I use pipes a lot while typing and, for whatever reason, my hands naturally use the left Shift key, which poses a problem on this keyboard. I'll just have to unlearn that habit.
 
I opted for the version with the Glidepoint trackpad because I figured that having a trackpad would be better than having an empty spot. It turns out that using the trackpad really helps my RSI. My only wish is that it were a bit larger in area and that the buttons were on the bottom.
 
Does anyone know how difficult it would be to swap this trackpad for a more modern one?

As long as it fits in the case, I don't think it should be too hard.  You might have to cut the wires on the original and attach them to the new, but other than that, you should be able to make a direct swap.

[iMav]

Has anyone gotten their hands on a SmartBoard from Data Desk Tech?  (and/or is their "SmartBoard 2" shipping at all?)

[wellington1869]

is that the smartboard? how much? looks neat.
looks a bit like the typematrix keyb which puts keys on inside fingers too, tho i think this one is better.

[Rajagra]

I'm considering one of these. I think the layout is utterly brilliant btw. Look how it achieves big reductions in hand travel by moving important stuff to the inside fingers and thumbs. Visually it makes me drool. It is a very interesting design and device.

They SO stole my idea from the which fingers go where thread! :lol:


Seriously though, that looks pretty good.

[rdjack21]

I've been eying that keyboard ever since I saw it in another thread. Thanks for those pictures as well that really helped in finding the manufacture. What just blew me away is that thing has Topre switches (all 45g) in it Wow! But man it is sure not cheap. 52,500 yen + another 9,450 yen for the wrist rest. That makes it what around $576 just for the keyboard. I think I will have to hold off on it for a bit.

webwit are you going to get one? If it really works out as well as it should it just may be worth it.

[wellington1869]

I've been eying that keyboard ever since I saw it in another thread. Thanks for those pictures as well that really helped in finding the manufacture. What just blew me away is that thing has Topre switches in it! Wow. But man it is sure not cheap. 52,500 yen + another 9,450 yen for the wrist rest. That makes it what around $576 just for the keyboard. I think I will have to hold off on it for a bit.

webwit are you going to get one? If it really works out as well as it should it just may be worth it.

this is one of those things where if i had a full time job i'd probably buy it cuz one can always justify these things if one is spending 10 hours a day in front of the keyboard (and have some spare cash). Some employers would subsidize it too cuz its ergo.

[rdjack21]

http://www.personal-media.co.jp/webshop/others/utronkb.html
( links to http://www.personal-media.co.jp/utronkb/ and
http://www.uctec.com/index.html )

I may or may not buy it depending on availability and quotes from japanese buyer services.

And yeah, it's the only ergonomic Topre keyboard in existence.

Wouldn't it be nice if you could go for a walk and buy this in a shop? ...

Show Image

Ah I see you found the thread. And yes it would be nice to take a walk find it in a shop and see if I liked it before droping that kind of money on it. But still it should be a really nice board even if you left if you left flat on the desk.