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geekhack Community => Reviews => Topic started by: Khuya on Fri, 22 April 2016, 23:11:40
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Saw the review of these Aristotle switches by Zeal a while back
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=77847.0 (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=77847.0)
Peeked my interest so I bought a Chicony 5981 from ebay and harvested the switches. I took out the Aristotle sliders and put into both brown gateron (bought from taobao with chrome translate, can't read chinese, I thought it was green :'(), it did click but it produce this mushy click, not very good.
I tried it on the blue gateron and wow, what a difference :thumb: With blue gateron, there are these little rattle after-shock sound *click erererere*, but with the Aristotle slider, it's clear and crisp, just *Click*. If you look at Zeal's video, it sound almost the same as the ESC key.
Pics...
As clean as it gets ;D
(http://i.imgur.com/LbNJeOU.jpg)
Took a flat screw driver and starts popping the top off, it was easy because the board is old, the top just snapped right off, took about 10 minutes to get all the sliders and springs, didn't realized how important the stabilizers are so i threw them away, regretting it now
(http://i.imgur.com/XSx2krx.jpg)
Too expensive :(
(http://i.imgur.com/nX5zodS.jpg)
a shot for comparision, Zeal has better macro pictures, but here's another one. At first I thought the blue spring is lighter, but after a while pressing both, I can't really tell which is..
(http://i.imgur.com/oCO59GL.jpg)
Differences between blue and brown - Look at the flap on the metal, the blue is bigger
(http://i.imgur.com/sjM8RTu.jpg)
Cracking the SIP socket
(http://i.imgur.com/6GDZHmg.jpg)
With Socket installed and 78g gold spring, normally the spring would push the slider flying, but due to the slider long curve leg, it somehow hook onto the metal part
(http://i.imgur.com/QWOYkM4.jpg)
Another angle
(http://i.imgur.com/v29RUCZ.jpg)
Finish
(http://i.imgur.com/3CnIsQ0.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/GhC8HVL.jpg)
I really want to put these in green gateron to compare, but I made the mistake with Taobao, and missed the massdrop drop. Now I need to wait until I sell my CODE keyboard (in classified section, please buy :)) before I can buy some greens.
Will be saving these switches for the Ergodox! I would recommend this switch if you are into clicky!
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Keep in mind that by mixing parts from different companies you may drastically shorten the lifespan.
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Keep in mind that by mixing parts from different companies you may drastically shorten the lifespan.
What kind of observations have been made, in terms of reliability? I'm genuinely curious what the failure mechanism appears to be on modded switches.
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It may be more of an age factor.
You're putting in an older slider into a new Gateron. If all parts have the same life span, then your switch would fail faster because the slider would have a shorter life span remaining.
I haven't seen this ever occur though.
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Ah, so it's more in line with saying if you salvage say, vintage Cherry MX, they may have a nice broken in feel, but they''ll not last as long, not because they are of a lower quality, but rather that they simply have "consumed" a portion of their rated lifetime cycles. Makes sense.
With that in mind, I just bought a Chicony KB-5981 Keyboard that the seller claims has Aristotle switches. It's 104 keys, so enough to do my 88 key 75%+1 Danger Zone keyboard, but not enough to cover the number pad (which technically does not yet exist). That will likely be a 5x6 or 6x6 grid... The remaining Aristotle stems may only cover 16 more keys, if every stem is recovered in good condition. Might just do only the numbers, enter, and the operator keys by the numbers, and leave the extra function keys, etc as greens.
I'm hoping that heavier springs will make the keyboard feel more like an Alps Amber... I've NEVER felt anything else like it. If I can even get a little closer... I'd count that as a win! ;D
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Keep in mind that by mixing parts from different companies you may drastically shorten the lifespan.
What kind of observations have been made, in terms of reliability? I'm genuinely curious what the failure mechanism appears to be on modded switches.
I mixed Outemu blues with Cherry Blues.
In one configuration they would barely actuate, in another config they had a slightly stronger tactile bump.
Nothing has been tested in terms of reliability, but push too hard on the contacts and you could weaken things or at least wear something out quick. The mechanisms in switches have a limit of deflection, after which things deform permanently.
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Have you had any compatibility issues with the switch tops? My Aristotle stems get stuck in the normal gateron switch tops, but for some reason work fine in zealio tops
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That just reinforces my point, the tolerances on this stuff is very very tiny. The tactile bump on a Cherry MX Clear is 80 microns (0.008in or 0.08mm). By comparison, human hair is on average about 65 microns, and that's the bump, not the tolerances they are made to. Just because it looks the same, and has a similar shape, it may even drop into place, that doesn't mean it will work as intended. The contact in an MX Clear only moves a total of about 120microns (3/64th of an inch), thats from insertion to trigger. It's not a coil spring, it cannot compress to half it's length and not be effected.
The only switches I've experimented with are Outemus and Cherry.
Outemu and Cherry housing parts are completely incompatible, you cannot use a Cherry top with Outemu bottom. Also, if you have a Universal Plate, you may not be able to open Outemus due to where the locking tabs are placed. Typically though, a Cherry top will sit loose on top of other housings, particularly Aristotle. That says nothing about how thick the stems, sliders, or posts are, contact spring sizes, travel, etc...
I'm not saying don't swap parts, I'm just saying the parts are not as compatible as people think and it could reduce the lifespan. For as small as they are, these switches are quite complex and have very tight tolerances. People complain about tactiles not being tactile and differences in springs just because of manufacturing tolerances. Throw in parts from another manufacturer and you can really throw things out of whack. For example, If Cherry's bump is .05 with a parts tolerance of .0010 and the Gateron is .06 with a tolerance of .0015, you can now have a switch with a bump of .04, all the way up to a .075 If the Cherry is meant for a maximum of .06, you just reduced the lifespan, not to mention made it less consistent. Go the other way, and just reduced your bump from a Clear sized bump, down to a Cherry Brown size bump or maybe no bump at all, it may not even function.
Zelios are made by Gateron, so parts would most likely be interchangeable.
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Have you had any compatibility issues with the switch tops? My Aristotle stems get stuck in the normal gateron switch tops, but for some reason work fine in zealio tops
Do you mean the milky gateron switch tops? They're slight different form the clear gateron switch tops( which zealios uses). There's slightly less space on the bottom of the switch top opening. This actually caused me a lot of issues with using my GMK Sky Dolch with the milky tops. The issues went away when I switched to clear tops.
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So I managed to get a Chicony board with all Aristotles that I plan on harvesting. Should I use Zealio or Gateron Blue housings for the best results? Also, any recommendations if I should keep the original housings?
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So I managed to get a Chicony board with all Aristotles that I plan on harvesting. Should I use Zealio or Gateron Blue housings for the best results? Also, any recommendations if I should keep the original housings?
So I managed to get a Chicony board with all Aristotles that I plan on harvesting. Should I use Zealio or Gateron Blue housings for the best results? Also, any recommendations if I should keep the original housings?
The internal leaf on R2 Zealios are the same as the Gateron blue switches OP pictured. It's a new revision of the leaf that was introduced with R2 Zealios.
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Very interesting, i would love to give zealistotles a go at some point. Just hard tracking down aristotles.
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Zeal posted in another thread that he's in the process of securing the last of the new old stock.
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So I managed to get a Chicony board with all Aristotles that I plan on harvesting. Should I use Zealio or Gateron Blue housings for the best results? Also, any recommendations if I should keep the original housings?
So I managed to get a Chicony board with all Aristotles that I plan on harvesting. Should I use Zealio or Gateron Blue housings for the best results? Also, any recommendations if I should keep the original housings?
The internal leaf on R2 Zealios are the same as the Gateron blue switches OP pictured. It's a new revision of the leaf that was introduced with R2 Zealios.
What about the leaf in the R3 Zealios? I have 67g and 78g and just tested a aristotle steam in a 67g housing and it seems like the click is very light (way lighter than the ****ty Razer Blackwidow Ultimate with Kailh green switches) and it also seems like the bottom out is way faster than the Kailh Greens. I don't have any Gateron blues or greens on hand to test unfortunately (everything else I have has Zealios in them) so I am not sure if their bottom out is just as fast or if perhaps the leaf in the R3 Zealios changed or if I have screwed something up (maybe I was supposed to do something more than a simple stem transplant).
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So I managed to get a Chicony board with all Aristotles that I plan on harvesting. Should I use Zealio or Gateron Blue housings for the best results? Also, any recommendations if I should keep the original housings?
So I managed to get a Chicony board with all Aristotles that I plan on harvesting. Should I use Zealio or Gateron Blue housings for the best results? Also, any recommendations if I should keep the original housings?
The internal leaf on R2 Zealios are the same as the Gateron blue switches OP pictured. It's a new revision of the leaf that was introduced with R2 Zealios.
What about the leaf in the R3 Zealios? I have 67g and 78g and just tested a aristotle steam in a 67g housing and it seems like the click is very light (way lighter than the ****ty Razer Blackwidow Ultimate with Kailh green switches) and it also seems like the bottom out is way faster than the Kailh Greens. I don't have any Gateron blues or greens on hand to test unfortunately (everything else I have has Zealios in them) so I am not sure if their bottom out is just as fast or if perhaps the leaf in the R3 Zealios changed or if I have screwed something up (maybe I was supposed to do something more than a simple stem transplant).
The leaf didn't change for R3. You have to anchor the Aristotle stem into the leaf, not force it in by closing the top. If you forced the stem down, then the leaf may have been bent and damaged. Try angling it 30-45° in, then pushing the stem in gently into the rails before closing the top. The switch should produce a very distinct click and tactile feedback thars larger than blues.
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So I managed to get a Chicony board with all Aristotles that I plan on harvesting. Should I use Zealio or Gateron Blue housings for the best results? Also, any recommendations if I should keep the original housings?
So I managed to get a Chicony board with all Aristotles that I plan on harvesting. Should I use Zealio or Gateron Blue housings for the best results? Also, any recommendations if I should keep the original housings?
The internal leaf on R2 Zealios are the same as the Gateron blue switches OP pictured. It's a new revision of the leaf that was introduced with R2 Zealios.
What about the leaf in the R3 Zealios? I have 67g and 78g and just tested a aristotle steam in a 67g housing and it seems like the click is very light (way lighter than the ****ty Razer Blackwidow Ultimate with Kailh green switches) and it also seems like the bottom out is way faster than the Kailh Greens. I don't have any Gateron blues or greens on hand to test unfortunately (everything else I have has Zealios in them) so I am not sure if their bottom out is just as fast or if perhaps the leaf in the R3 Zealios changed or if I have screwed something up (maybe I was supposed to do something more than a simple stem transplant).
The leaf didn't change for R3. You have to anchor the Aristotle stem into the leaf, not force it in by closing the top. If you forced the stem down, then the leaf may have been bent and damaged. Try angling it 30-45° in, then pushing the stem in gently into the rails before closing the top. The switch should produce a very distinct click and tactile feedback thars larger than blues.
I did angle it but I may not have angled it enough. I will test another tonight. It may just simply be that since it is not in a plate it doesn't sound as loud as it should. I will test that soon as well.
Thank you for the response!
Also, I checked the GB text and saw that you said the 78g leafs will be a bit different in R4. Will they still be similar to Blue leafs or something else entirely?
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So I managed to get a Chicony board with all Aristotles that I plan on harvesting. Should I use Zealio or Gateron Blue housings for the best results? Also, any recommendations if I should keep the original housings?
So I managed to get a Chicony board with all Aristotles that I plan on harvesting. Should I use Zealio or Gateron Blue housings for the best results? Also, any recommendations if I should keep the original housings?
The internal leaf on R2 Zealios are the same as the Gateron blue switches OP pictured. It's a new revision of the leaf that was introduced with R2 Zealios.
What about the leaf in the R3 Zealios? I have 67g and 78g and just tested a aristotle steam in a 67g housing and it seems like the click is very light (way lighter than the ****ty Razer Blackwidow Ultimate with Kailh green switches) and it also seems like the bottom out is way faster than the Kailh Greens. I don't have any Gateron blues or greens on hand to test unfortunately (everything else I have has Zealios in them) so I am not sure if their bottom out is just as fast or if perhaps the leaf in the R3 Zealios changed or if I have screwed something up (maybe I was supposed to do something more than a simple stem transplant).
The leaf didn't change for R3. You have to anchor the Aristotle stem into the leaf, not force it in by closing the top. If you forced the stem down, then the leaf may have been bent and damaged. Try angling it 30-45° in, then pushing the stem in gently into the rails before closing the top. The switch should produce a very distinct click and tactile feedback thars larger than blues.
I did angle it but I may not have angled it enough. I will test another tonight. It may just simply be that since it is not in a plate it doesn't sound as loud as it should. I will test that soon as well.
Thank you for the response!
Also, I checked the GB text and saw that you said the 78g leafs will be a bit different in R4. Will they still be similar to Blue leafs or something else entirely?
The leaf isn't changing in R4... 78g spring is just being tweaked.