Author Topic: Car Thread  (Read 643626 times)

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Offline iri

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Re: Car Thread
« Reply #3000 on: Thu, 05 November 2020, 15:50:44 »
People do also like to get rid of cars just before they start ****ting major components, 5-7 years is kinda when you start to get to that stage (a lot of cars will go well beyond this, but I am not getting stuck in the middle of no where after a 12 hour shift when I have to be back at work in 11 hours). 
Option: buy a whatever years old Toyota Hilux. I've heard Australians really like Japanese pickups.

(...)Whereas back then I wrote about the tyranny of the majority, today I'd combine that with the tyranny of the minorities. These days, you have to be careful of both. They both want to control you. The first group, by making you do the same thing over and over again. The second group is indicated by the letters I get from the Vassar girls who want me to put more women's lib in The Martian Chronicles, or from blacks who want more black people in Dandelion Wine.
I say to both bunches, Whether you're a majority or minority, bug off! To hell with anybody who wants to tell me what to write. Their society breaks down into subsections of minorities who then, in effect, burn books by banning them. All this political correctness that's rampant on campuses is b.s.

-Ray Bradbury

Offline fanpeople

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Re: Car Thread
« Reply #3001 on: Thu, 05 November 2020, 19:13:02 »
People do also like to get rid of cars just before they start ****ting major components, 5-7 years is kinda when you start to get to that stage (a lot of cars will go well beyond this, but I am not getting stuck in the middle of no where after a 12 hour shift when I have to be back at work in 11 hours). 
Option: buy a whatever years old Toyota Hilux. I've heard Australians really like Japanese pickups.


The funny thing is, that popularity means that the old Hilux holds a little too much value for what they are.

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Offline yui

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Re: Car Thread
« Reply #3002 on: Fri, 06 November 2020, 01:40:54 »

The funny thing is, that popularity means that the old Hilux holds a little too much value for what they are.

here in France it is old volvos that have the safe reputation and issues with high value, they have the reputation to be indestructible (and to be fair are really reliable and safe, a cousin of mine was t-boned in one and did not suffer any injuries, the other driver was not as lucky, and the volvo was still running afterward and just needed a new door) and so hold their values very well, so i think that the problem with old hilux price is similar, more peoples will want the car that is reputed indestructible than the car that will explode at the slightest bump in the rear
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Offline fanpeople

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Re: Car Thread
« Reply #3003 on: Fri, 06 November 2020, 04:13:21 »

The funny thing is, that popularity means that the old Hilux holds a little too much value for what they are.

here in France it is old volvos that have the safe reputation and issues with high value, they have the reputation to be indestructible (and to be fair are really reliable and safe, a cousin of mine was t-boned in one and did not suffer any injuries, the other driver was not as lucky, and the volvo was still running afterward and just needed a new door) and so hold their values very well, so i think that the problem with old hilux price is similar, more peoples will want the car that is reputed indestructible than the car that will explode at the slightest bump in the rear

I love old Volvos and they built that reputation by producing really really safe cars. If they were more common here I would probably get one. I do occasionally check Carsales just to see what is available.

Older Hilux is really really basic so there is not too much that can go wrong. So they make good offroaders and project platforms. Same with the older Landcruiser etc. But that is about all they offer.

Offline noisyturtle

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Re: Car Thread
« Reply #3004 on: Fri, 06 November 2020, 04:26:18 »
Volvos sure are ugly though.

Offline Protato_Tubby

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Re: Car Thread
« Reply #3005 on: Fri, 06 November 2020, 05:02:57 »
Volvos sure are ugly though.
Strong disagree.
Look at this beautiful machine:
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Offline iri

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Re: Car Thread
« Reply #3006 on: Fri, 06 November 2020, 05:15:35 »
Volvos sure are ugly though.
Strong disagree.
Look at this beautiful machine:
Show Image

It's not beautiful.

A tuba will fit right in though.
(...)Whereas back then I wrote about the tyranny of the majority, today I'd combine that with the tyranny of the minorities. These days, you have to be careful of both. They both want to control you. The first group, by making you do the same thing over and over again. The second group is indicated by the letters I get from the Vassar girls who want me to put more women's lib in The Martian Chronicles, or from blacks who want more black people in Dandelion Wine.
I say to both bunches, Whether you're a majority or minority, bug off! To hell with anybody who wants to tell me what to write. Their society breaks down into subsections of minorities who then, in effect, burn books by banning them. All this political correctness that's rampant on campuses is b.s.

-Ray Bradbury

Offline Protato_Tubby

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Re: Car Thread
« Reply #3007 on: Fri, 06 November 2020, 05:19:31 »
Volvos sure are ugly though.
Strong disagree.
Look at this beautiful machine:
Show Image

It's not beautiful.

A tuba will fit right in though.
They say beauty is in the eye of the beholder.I guess this beholder has a preference for estate cars and Vovlo are kind of the king of that.
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Offline noisyturtle

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Re: Car Thread
« Reply #3008 on: Fri, 06 November 2020, 06:04:31 »
Volvos sure are ugly though.
Strong disagree.
Look at this beautiful machine:
Show Image


Is that a rally hearse?

Offline iri

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Re: Car Thread
« Reply #3009 on: Fri, 06 November 2020, 06:14:14 »
Volvos sure are ugly though.
Strong disagree.
Look at this beautiful machine:
Show Image


Is that a rally hearse?
shotsfired.jpg
(...)Whereas back then I wrote about the tyranny of the majority, today I'd combine that with the tyranny of the minorities. These days, you have to be careful of both. They both want to control you. The first group, by making you do the same thing over and over again. The second group is indicated by the letters I get from the Vassar girls who want me to put more women's lib in The Martian Chronicles, or from blacks who want more black people in Dandelion Wine.
I say to both bunches, Whether you're a majority or minority, bug off! To hell with anybody who wants to tell me what to write. Their society breaks down into subsections of minorities who then, in effect, burn books by banning them. All this political correctness that's rampant on campuses is b.s.

-Ray Bradbury

Offline fanpeople

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Re: Car Thread
« Reply #3010 on: Fri, 06 November 2020, 07:08:48 »

Offline yui

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Re: Car Thread
« Reply #3011 on: Fri, 06 November 2020, 09:57:15 »
well volvo tried to rally 240s but i do not remember hearing of a volvo hearse though, and the 960 is pretty cool looking and actually pretty fast maybe one of the last proper rear wheel drive fast family car, at least in Europe
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Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Car Thread
« Reply #3012 on: Fri, 06 November 2020, 10:19:19 »
I have owned a couple of Volvos and they were great.

In the mid-1970s when I was in college, I had a 122 which I thought was quite handsome in a understated and homely sort of way. It was very reliable and economical, although the carburetor tended to fall out of adjustment.

Many years later, I got a 744T which was bad-ass with a large 4-cylinder turbo. It used way too much gas and required high-test, and also it chewed through brakes at an alarming rate. I thought that the styling was too aggressive, however, and much preferred the understated simplicity of the 140/240 series.

These are not my actual cars, but mine were just like these:

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Offline Sniping

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Re: Car Thread
« Reply #3013 on: Fri, 06 November 2020, 12:23:41 »
i can respect the volvo cult, one of my old housemates had a v70r up until recently and they get pretty rare and they're dead reliable too, you literally can't find one out there with less than 150k. they made a lot of peculiar color combos for the car that makes it a really interesting car to collect and it's cool that they come in manuals too. i'll still take a sports car over it though. if i was going for a wagon i think the manual vw alltrack is great and so is the 328d.

Offline iri

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Re: Car Thread
« Reply #3014 on: Fri, 06 November 2020, 13:16:19 »
well volvo tried to rally 240s but i do not remember hearing of a volvo hearse though, and the 960 is pretty cool looking and actually pretty fast maybe one of the last proper rear wheel drive fast family car, at least in Europe
u w0t m8

Jaguar Sportbrake? 5-series Tourer? E-class?
(...)Whereas back then I wrote about the tyranny of the majority, today I'd combine that with the tyranny of the minorities. These days, you have to be careful of both. They both want to control you. The first group, by making you do the same thing over and over again. The second group is indicated by the letters I get from the Vassar girls who want me to put more women's lib in The Martian Chronicles, or from blacks who want more black people in Dandelion Wine.
I say to both bunches, Whether you're a majority or minority, bug off! To hell with anybody who wants to tell me what to write. Their society breaks down into subsections of minorities who then, in effect, burn books by banning them. All this political correctness that's rampant on campuses is b.s.

-Ray Bradbury

Offline yui

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Re: Car Thread
« Reply #3015 on: Fri, 06 November 2020, 14:11:35 »
i do not really call those family cars, those are luxury cars, old volvos were still cheap enough for normal peoples to afford, jags and mercs to me seems a bit over budget for most families...
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Offline fantasyrunner

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Re: Car Thread
« Reply #3016 on: Thu, 17 December 2020, 10:06:46 »
One of my friends has the older version of it. Loves it to death

Offline noisyturtle

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Re: Car Thread
« Reply #3017 on: Wed, 23 December 2020, 03:09:36 »
this thing is absolutely insane. I want to be in it  :'(

Offline yui

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Re: Car Thread
« Reply #3018 on: Wed, 23 December 2020, 03:40:15 »
i wanted to clean my car and post a photo of it here but i managed to damage the door... a car for both stance life and rally :)
pretty much exactly this, just a bit more damaged...

(source: http://www.auto-pub.net/ASL/Citroen/page_Citroen_BX_Calanque.htm (french but photos and numbers are universal))
when i get to fix it i may post photos of it high and low, but have not got the budget right now for bodywork...

i am wondering for the next car (i will not sell/junk that one just relieve some of its function) if i should wait to get a bit more money and import a Honda Beat or right now buy an Opel Tigra, or does anyone have an idea for an other light, nimble, cheap car available in Europe (and preferably early injected, 90-2000)? :) i am quite open to ideas
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Offline noisyturtle

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Re: Car Thread
« Reply #3019 on: Wed, 23 December 2020, 03:49:23 »
i wanted to clean my car and post a photo of it here but i managed to damage the door... a car for both stance life and rally :)
pretty much exactly this, just a bit more damaged...
Show Image

(source: http://www.auto-pub.net/ASL/Citroen/page_Citroen_BX_Calanque.htm (french but photos and numbers are universal))
when i get to fix it i may post photos of it high and low, but have not got the budget right now for bodywork...

i am wondering for the next car (i will not sell/junk that one just relieve some of its function) if i should wait to get a bit more money and import a Honda Beat or right now buy an Opel Tigra, or does anyone have an idea for an other light, nimble, cheap car available in Europe (and preferably early injected, 90-2000)? :) i am quite open to ideas

Yamaha Ami :))

Offline yui

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Re: Car Thread
« Reply #3020 on: Wed, 23 December 2020, 03:53:34 »
Yamaha Ami :))
i knew Yamaha made car engines and bikes but i did not know they made a car :) and what a car it is, although may be hard to get, if Wikipedia is right only 3 were ever sold... thanks :)
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Offline FoC_Tow

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Re: Car Thread
« Reply #3021 on: Wed, 27 January 2021, 07:16:41 »
Very dissapointed by the lack of itasha in this thread.

I thought GH was a place of culture... 😅

Offline Sniping

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Re: Car Thread
« Reply #3022 on: Thu, 28 January 2021, 22:34:36 »
Very dissapointed by the lack of itasha in this thread.

I thought GH was a place of culture... 😅

lol i'll see a couple every time at track days. i'll get a pic. it's usually miatas and frs, but sometimes i've seen things like the e46 m3 with a wrap.

Offline noisyturtle

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Re: Car Thread
« Reply #3023 on: Fri, 29 January 2021, 03:21:36 »
Very dissapointed by the lack of itasha in this thread.

I thought GH was a place of culture... 😅

lol i'll see a couple every time at track days. i'll get a pic. it's usually miatas and frs, but sometimes i've seen things like the e46 m3 with a wrap.

It scares me they are out on the road like they are regular people  :-X

Offline yui

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Re: Car Thread
« Reply #3024 on: Fri, 29 January 2021, 03:47:06 »
Very dissapointed by the lack of itasha in this thread.

I thought GH was a place of culture... 😅

lol i'll see a couple every time at track days. i'll get a pic. it's usually miatas and frs, but sometimes i've seen things like the e46 m3 with a wrap.
It scares me they are out on the road like they are regular people  :-X
if it is only a livery it does not make the car unsafe, and drivers are as regular of peoples as you are
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Offline noisyturtle

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Re: Car Thread
« Reply #3025 on: Fri, 05 February 2021, 01:32:28 »
The Starion/Conquest has got to be in the running for Most '80s Interior Ever, and I love it  :-*
Show Image


I'm actually seriously looking into getting a Starion the past week.
It's very convoluted finding financing for a classic import. Shockingly affordable to bring a car overseas though.
Have a mechanic in Osaka who's going to help me out with inspection once I figure out the financing part.

Offline yui

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Re: Car Thread
« Reply #3026 on: Fri, 05 February 2021, 02:54:44 »
I'm actually seriously looking into getting a Starion the past week.
It's very convoluted finding financing for a classic import. Shockingly affordable to bring a car overseas though.
Have a mechanic in Osaka who's going to help me out with inspection once I figure out the financing part.
i am rather curious on how it goes as i really want a beat and a 4wd acty truck... and neither were sold in France (well they were just no one bought any. there is only 3 beats in France from what i read, and only 2 on the road)
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Offline TacticalCoder

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Re: Car Thread
« Reply #3027 on: Thu, 25 February 2021, 08:31:57 »
i wanted to clean my car and post a photo of it here but i managed to damage the door... a car for both stance life and rally :)


My goodness!  A very long time ago I had a beaten up Citroen Visa.  If the plan is to have a cheap reliable old car with parts readily available (even if it's reliable, it it's old you'll need parts at some point), it kinda depends on the country you're in?  I'd pick a say a Seat in Spain, some french car in France, some german car in germany. Even though they are present everywhere in Europe, they are disproportionately represented in their home countries and you'll have an easier time finding spare parts there.


As posted earlier in this thread: this was a very long time ago, I now drive my lovely 2013 Porsche Panamera (which is sometimes cranky but I don't care as I've got an extended warranty on it) on a daily basis.
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Offline TacticalCoder

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Re: Car Thread
« Reply #3028 on: Thu, 25 February 2021, 08:37:26 »
I see this thread is still alive :). As a matter of fact what do you guys think about the new Toyota CHR?


It's the car my wife drives since 18 months. It is incredibly good looking: and  it does indeed look incredibly futuristic. We've got the hybrid (just hybrid, sadly not plug-in hybrid: don't think it exists yet in PHEV?): fuel consumption is very low... The worst we do is 4.5 l / 100 (63 mpg) but sometimes we go below 3 l / 100 (78 mpg).


I'd say the Toyota CH-R is quite noisy on the highway but as I just posted above my standards are high as I daily drive a very fancy high-end luxury car with an incredible sound insulation.
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Offline Snowdog993

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Re: Car Thread
« Reply #3029 on: Sun, 28 February 2021, 21:59:43 »
I still love my car. At least one of us respects it.  :cool:

Offline yui

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Re: Car Thread
« Reply #3030 on: Mon, 01 March 2021, 02:02:12 »
if i were to get a new American muscle car that would be the one too but there are so many more interesting cars around that i do not see myself get one, likely ever.
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Car Thread
« Reply #3031 on: Mon, 01 March 2021, 04:34:42 »
Outside = bad

Inside = gud'

Waiting for Samsung QNED, 1000nits, 500nit full field.

Offline yui

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Re: Car Thread
« Reply #3032 on: Tue, 02 March 2021, 01:23:10 »
Outside = bad

Inside = gud'

Waiting for Samsung QNED, 1000nits, 500nit full field.

but with a car you are still inside of your own bubble on wheels :)  so you have the sight seeing of going outside while being inside
vi vi vi - the roman number of the beast (Plan9 fortune)

Offline noisyturtle

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Re: Car Thread
« Reply #3033 on: Sun, 11 April 2021, 23:11:12 »
Modern vehicles make me wanna vomit from boredom. Ever since the death of drivercentric vehicles in the early-mid '00s and the rise of automated electronic zombiemobiles everything has become so goddamn dull and homogenized. I don't know how people can stand it.



suv's are the worst culprit of cookiecutteritus

Offline Snowdog993

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Re: Car Thread
« Reply #3034 on: Sun, 11 April 2021, 23:35:48 »
Modern vehicles make me wanna vomit from boredom. Ever since the death of drivercentric vehicles in the early-mid '00s and the rise of automated electronic zombiemobiles everything has become so goddamn dull and homogenized. I don't know how people can stand it.

Show Image


suv's are the worst culprit of cookiecutteritus
Show Image


I tend to remember saying something about this before. What would I know?

Offline iri

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Re: Car Thread
« Reply #3035 on: Mon, 12 April 2021, 03:10:37 »
I don't know how people can stand it.
I can't.
(...)Whereas back then I wrote about the tyranny of the majority, today I'd combine that with the tyranny of the minorities. These days, you have to be careful of both. They both want to control you. The first group, by making you do the same thing over and over again. The second group is indicated by the letters I get from the Vassar girls who want me to put more women's lib in The Martian Chronicles, or from blacks who want more black people in Dandelion Wine.
I say to both bunches, Whether you're a majority or minority, bug off! To hell with anybody who wants to tell me what to write. Their society breaks down into subsections of minorities who then, in effect, burn books by banning them. All this political correctness that's rampant on campuses is b.s.

-Ray Bradbury

Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Car Thread
« Reply #3036 on: Mon, 12 April 2021, 08:16:23 »
I grew up in the mid-late-20th-century when cars used to have personalities.
Just a few random examples:
« Last Edit: Mon, 12 April 2021, 08:18:05 by fohat.digs »
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Offline yui

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Re: Car Thread
« Reply #3037 on: Mon, 12 April 2021, 08:20:07 »
I grew up in the mid-late-20th-century when cars used to have personalities.
Just a few random examples:
for once we can agree :) even outside of the US the problem is rampant, identifying a recent car without seeing the badge is hard, they pretty much all look the same.
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Offline DELLA KEY

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Re: Car Thread
« Reply #3038 on: Mon, 12 April 2021, 21:28:12 »
I work for a car company! I have a lot of interest in cars.
I'm still on the Hyundai Avante, but I'm thinking of the Audi A6 and BMW 5 next cars, so Audi is really amazingly quiet!

Offline Snowdog993

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Re: Car Thread
« Reply #3039 on: Mon, 12 April 2021, 22:27:08 »
I was digging around and found another picture. Enjoy!

Offline hwood34

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Re: Car Thread
« Reply #3040 on: Tue, 13 April 2021, 00:00:58 »
Modern vehicles make me wanna vomit from boredom. Ever since the death of drivercentric vehicles in the early-mid '00s and the rise of automated electronic zombiemobiles everything has become so goddamn dull and homogenized. I don't know how people can stand it.

Show Image


suv's are the worst culprit of cookiecutteritus
Show Image


capitalism baby
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Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Car Thread
« Reply #3041 on: Tue, 13 April 2021, 08:35:17 »

Audi is really amazingly quiet!


And that is the other side of the coin. In the old days the exterior styling of the car was paramount, and they were works of art.

But today, the interior cabin is the center of attention. Cars today are vastly quieter, safer, and more comfortable than they were in the days of the classics. For me (now an old man) that is a trade-off that is more than acceptable.

And, lastly, the majority of people used to want to express their individuality, but today I think more people see greater value in anonymity.

As my late step-father said in the 1990s: "Today all the cars look like bars of soap."
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Offline Snowdog993

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Re: Car Thread
« Reply #3042 on: Wed, 14 April 2021, 16:31:00 »

Audi is really amazingly quiet!


And that is the other side of the coin. In the old days the exterior styling of the car was paramount, and they were works of art.

But today, the interior cabin is the center of attention. Cars today are vastly quieter, safer, and more comfortable than they were in the days of the classics. For me (now an old man) that is a trade-off that is more than acceptable.

And, lastly, the majority of people used to want to express their individuality, but today I think more people see greater value in anonymity.

As my late step-father said in the 1990s: "Today all the cars look like bars of soap."
Each and every generation has their "idea" that is always better than the prior generation. No matter how evident the argument is, they remember what made them like cars of their era.
It seems that recently the EPA and governments around the world are systematically erasing what was a golden era of our automobiles. If they continue at this rate, there will be no car enthusiasm in the future.
It's sad.

Offline noisyturtle

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Re: Car Thread
« Reply #3043 on: Fri, 23 April 2021, 15:45:45 »
Opinions on the 3000 GT vs the RX7 FD?

Offline iri

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Re: Car Thread
« Reply #3044 on: Fri, 23 April 2021, 16:35:05 »
3000 GT
(...)Whereas back then I wrote about the tyranny of the majority, today I'd combine that with the tyranny of the minorities. These days, you have to be careful of both. They both want to control you. The first group, by making you do the same thing over and over again. The second group is indicated by the letters I get from the Vassar girls who want me to put more women's lib in The Martian Chronicles, or from blacks who want more black people in Dandelion Wine.
I say to both bunches, Whether you're a majority or minority, bug off! To hell with anybody who wants to tell me what to write. Their society breaks down into subsections of minorities who then, in effect, burn books by banning them. All this political correctness that's rampant on campuses is b.s.

-Ray Bradbury

Offline yui

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Re: Car Thread
« Reply #3045 on: Mon, 26 April 2021, 02:11:30 »
would it have been RX7 FC i would have said FC, but although partial to the rotary i do find the FD rather ugly, and the 3000GT a much better looking car, so i guess a 13B swapped 3000GT?
i think it depends on why you like the cars, i want to have an RX for its rather special engine giving it lightness, balance and revs, even though to me most of them are rather ugly, apart from the FC, RX4 and 3. i like the looks of the 3000GT bot do not find it that interesting.
so i guess i would go FD, even if only to sell it and buy a cheaper NA FC instead :)
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Offline noisyturtle

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Re: Car Thread
« Reply #3046 on: Tue, 21 September 2021, 14:34:53 »
New Toyota Supra, new Nissan Z, or Subaru BRZ?

Offline _rubik

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Re: Car Thread
« Reply #3047 on: Wed, 22 September 2021, 00:47:16 »
New Toyota Supra, new Nissan Z, or Subaru BRZ?

100% the Z only because I still am holding onto the pipe dream of potentially owning an OG 72' 240z.

Although I still think the front grill is wonky as hell, Nissan did a generally good job copying over the design aesthetic of the original Datsuns.

That said.. those BMW Supras are really growing on me  :p
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Offline noisyturtle

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Re: Car Thread
« Reply #3048 on: Sat, 25 September 2021, 17:57:32 »
That said.. those BMW Supras are really growing on me  :p

The only way I'd ever own a BMW is if it were the new Supra ;)

Offline noisyturtle

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Re: Car Thread
« Reply #3049 on: Sun, 26 September 2021, 14:27:04 »
Well it is FINALLY happening. After almost 40 years it is finally time to get my first car. Got $10k saved to go towards a down payment, got my license, did the research. Now it is just a matter of finding the right vehicle.

I would really love to get a '90s turbo sports car, but that is sadly just not really feasible for my current needs. Maybe someday I'll be able to get a 2nd car just for fun, then I'll seriously look into importing a Starion, RX7 FD, or Supra again. By that time they will probably be going for much more than  $30k+ - US models already are obscene prices. :(

So it has been narrowed down to these 4:
Nissan 370 Z
Subaru BRZ/ Toyota 86
Mazda RX-8
Ford Fiesta ST

At the moment I am heavily leaning towards the BRZ/86 for many reasons. The RX-8 being a close second with very similar handling and performance, but with potential reliability issues. The RX-8 is also half the price of the 86. In the long run the 86 would be the better choice, but that money I save could just go towards the RX's inevitable maintenance costs. I dunno.

Originally the 370 Z was top choice, but it is slightly out of my price range and from what I understand is more of a powerhouse, and a bit less cooperative vs the 86. The Z is better than the 86 in every way except maybe handling, but then again I don't need some beast. The Z reportedly has a tendency to under steer, which scares the hell out of me as a somewhat inexperienced driver.  I just want something fun to whip around windy wooded roads (and go grocery shopping.)

The Fiesta ST is the outlier here, different from what I usually like. But man, it just looks so goddamn fun to drive, so responsive. A low pressure car that doesn't demand constant attention from the driver like a 370 or RX-8. Very hard to find in an automatic though.

I won't know until I have a chance to test drive them all.
If I go the 86 rout, later down the road I could have the option of installing a supercharger in there bumping up the hp, very tunable which is fun.

I reckon used BRZ/86 and 370 Z's will drop in price significantly next year when their replacements roll out, which is why now is the perfect time. Good prices, and pick of the crop from people looking to replace their current gen models.
 
If anyone has experience with these vehicles please let me know your thoughts and opinions. This is a huge thing for me, been into cars since a kid and life has always smacked me away from vehicle ownership, but now it looks like it will finally happen! Sometime in the next 8 months or so I will have my first car!
« Last Edit: Sun, 26 September 2021, 14:35:18 by noisyturtle »