[IC] usb to ps2 adapters: preferences on chipsets and so on and so forth

[mkawa]

Folks,

as you may have seen in the krytox IC, i will be stocking some keyboard basics that the community likes to have, but isn't quite able to get MOQ together for all the time. Proceeds from these sales will go towards funding geekhackers, which, long story short, is a legal way of funding the site and community (there, i snuck it in again! concrete example: geekhackers contributed significant funds to the cherry legends).

anyway, it seems to me that we have the following two options on USB to ps2 adapters. First, there is the ID innovations adapter: http://www.idinnovations.com/usb%20adaptors.html

this is a nice little adapter that works particularly well with model M controllers. Highlight features are that it can present itself as a USB to serial adapter, a standard USB-HID device, or a keyboard emulator that does something or other. The major plus is that it requests more power on the bus than most USB to ps2 adapters and auto-reconnects if the PS2 device is a bit finicky (as some Ms are). Pricing on these would be about 12-13$ per unit plus ship. The downside of these is that they don't have universal compatibility. I have had reports of incompatibilities with some variations on the OTD a87 aikon variants, and some weirdo stuff that I can't even remember.

There is also the famous "blue cube" which can be sourced from a number of factories in china. Lead times on these will probably be longer, as I will go direct to factory for these. (I source from ID for the other adapters to take advantage of their firmware). Blue cubes are physically of lower quality, and not quite as compatible with Ms, but when the ID adapters fail, a blue cube almost always works (i have no idea whether the converse is true). Pricing on this would be similar given the prices i've been seeing, but if I work out enough guanxi I might be able to get them down a little lower. However, I do feel quite strongly that the blue cubes universally have terrible build quality.

Note that I can only afford to stock one at first due to MOQ. Given that the ID adapters are much harder to obtain, I am leaning towards those. However, I am open to suggestions.

[SpAmRaY]

I'm in for either/or just need one for my model m.

[rowdy]

I'd be in for a ID innovations one.

I ordered one in the past, but it seems to have disappeared in the mail, and I still have a PS/2 Model M with nothing to connect it to.

[mkawa]

IT IS DECIDED! i will be stocking the ID adapters. the fact that they double as USB to serial is actually quite nice.

[terrpn]

in............

need a dependable one for my "m", etc

thanks

[esoomenona]

PS/2 to USB?

[terrpn]

PS/2 to USB?

yup..........

[mkawa]

yes, sorry, they bring ps2 to USB, not the other way around.

[lcs]

I'd be interested as well!

[Tarzan]

Definitely interested!

[mkawa]

the units were ordered today, but i was gabbing with another supplier and missed the stupid credit card fraud alert call, so i stock won't be shipped out today. i will have them in stock shortly though.

[mkawa]

these have shipped to me. matt3o and i will try to have ordering ready soon.

[nathairtras]

Very interested, especially that it doubles as serial.

[rowdy]

It double as serial?

So I can connect a serial device to a modern PC with only USB ports?

Cool

[ItsBc]

like one of these? http://kbdmod.com/product/detail.html?product_no=32&cate_no=12&display_group=1#none

I need one. My PS2AVR is almost complete, but I use a laptop. x_x

[mkawa]

yah it doubles as a serial translator; ps2 is just a tx/rx dialect, and ID has written the driver for it to function as a COM port in windows.

HOWEVER, i've never used one that way because i have an excess of devices based on that ftdi chip. anyway, the one caveat to this is that the OTD pcbs may be doing something weird over ps2 that this driver trips over. someone reported something to that effect to me last buy

also, rowdy, we need to reimburse you or something. i didn't know your package disappeared last buy. PM me or dv

[Tarzan]

Exploring another option, these adapters could be used to modify a Focus keyboard to a USB cable?  They come stock with a DIN connector, but that is just a larger version of the PS2, right?

[rowdy]

yah it doubles as a serial translator; ps2 is just a tx/rx dialect, and ID has written the driver for it to function as a COM port in windows.

HOWEVER, i've never used one that way because i have an excess of devices based on that ftdi chip. anyway, the one caveat to this is that the OTD pcbs may be doing something weird over ps2 that this driver trips over. someone reported something to that effect to me last buy

also, rowdy, we need to reimburse you or something. i didn't know your package disappeared last buy. PM me or dv

Actually I hadn't even considered that.  There is an outside chance that it has been held up in customs, although now 8 weeks and counting this seems a very remote possibility.

[Soarer]

... and auto-reconnects if the PS2 device is a bit finicky (as some Ms are).

Sorry to say, but that doesn't sound like a plus point to me, at all!

Ms are the very definition of the PS/2 keyboard protocol.

It's the converters that are finicky.

I'd love to be proved wrong and you one day find a great PS/2-USB adapter at a good price. Until then I think the blue cube (is it still the same internals?) is the best bet for most people, and if that doesn't cut it then buy a Teensy and learn how to solder! (Sure, it's more expensive, but it's less expensive and less frustrating than buying multiple adapters trying to find one which will work).

[mkawa]

Exploring another option, these adapters could be used to modify a Focus keyboard to a USB cable?  They come stock with a DIN connector, but that is just a larger version of the PS2, right?

depends. XT connectors used a DIN connector as well (DIN describes a heck of a lot of different connectors.

if in doubt, soarer's adapter is your best bet.

[mkawa]

... and auto-reconnects if the PS2 device is a bit finicky (as some Ms are).

Sorry to say, but that doesn't sound like a plus point to me, at all!

Ms are the very definition of the PS/2 keyboard protocol.

It's the converters that are finicky.

I'd love to be proved wrong and you one day find a great PS/2-USB adapter at a good price. Until then I think the blue cube (is it still the same internals?) is the best bet for most people, and if that doesn't cut it then buy a Teensy and learn how to solder! (Sure, it's more expensive, but it's less expensive and less frustrating than buying multiple adapters trying to find one which will work).

i have to qualify this by saying that i have _not_ measured this at all, and i agree that your adapter is the end-all-be-all, BUT 20 year old electronics and higher power draw than many adapters can handle means that old stock Ms are the most common finicky keyboard controller we deal with on this site. otherwise, yes, their controllers didn't do anything too funky.

the other issue is that no matter how much you try to convince some people, they'd rather buy a couple of good quality adapters that have a good chance of working than buy tools and attempt to make something that use concepts that aren't immediately familiar to them. i personally am not this way, but we are also here to serve this community as well. i'd love to do a buy of blue cubes as well, but i need a trustworthy reasonably priced source that can provide quantity, regular shipments and the kind of yield (ie, negligible fault rate) that ID can.

[mkawa]

this reminds me, i think the next step is to get a PCB designed and kit a version of your adapter that is as compact as this adapter or smaller and comes with a zero-effort set of adaptor jacks. personally, i think the ID adapters are a bit overpriced for what they are, and that we can do better and get better compatibility with more flexibility if we manufacture the more open alternative ourselves.

[Soarer]

... and auto-reconnects if the PS2 device is a bit finicky (as some Ms are).

Sorry to say, but that doesn't sound like a plus point to me, at all!

Ms are the very definition of the PS/2 keyboard protocol.

It's the converters that are finicky.

I'd love to be proved wrong and you one day find a great PS/2-USB adapter at a good price. Until then I think the blue cube (is it still the same internals?) is the best bet for most people, and if that doesn't cut it then buy a Teensy and learn how to solder! (Sure, it's more expensive, but it's less expensive and less frustrating than buying multiple adapters trying to find one which will work).

i have to qualify this by saying that i have _not_ measured this at all, and i agree that your adapter is the end-all-be-all, BUT 20 year old electronics and higher power draw than many adapters can handle means that old stock Ms are the most common finicky keyboard controller we deal with on this site. otherwise, yes, their controllers didn't do anything too funky.

the other issue is that no matter how much you try to convince some people, they'd rather buy a couple of good quality adapters that have a good chance of working than buy tools and attempt to make something that use concepts that aren't immediately familiar to them. i personally am not this way, but we are also here to serve this community as well. i'd love to do a buy of blue cubes as well, but i need a trustworthy reasonably priced source that can provide quantity, regular shipments and the kind of yield (ie, negligible fault rate) that ID can.

I do appreciate that members will benefit from having a source of the best adapter(s) that can be found.

My converter proves that it's possible to build a USB adapter that works with Ms without reconnecting or other such annoyances, and it doesn't do anything at all to power which just comes straight off the USB. So on that basis, I'd have to say that it is ALWAYS the adapter that's finicky, not the M.

The M will make an adapter break a couple of USB rules: current draw before negotiation is too high, and there's too much capacitance causing inrush current. BUT both of those should only have any effect when an adapter is first connected, not later.

The power draw problem of Ms is more of a problem with recent under-powered PS/2 ports on motherboards, I think.

[Photekq]

Exploring another option, these adapters could be used to modify a Focus keyboard to a USB cable?  They come stock with a DIN connector, but that is just a larger version of the PS2, right?

depends. XT connectors used a DIN connector as well (DIN describes a heck of a lot of different connectors.

if in doubt, soarer's adapter is your best bet.

The focus, or at least the ones me and greystoke have, have a DIP switch that allows you to choose between XT and AT.

[Soarer]

this reminds me, i think the next step is to get a PCB designed and kit a version of your adapter that is as compact as this adapter or smaller and comes with a zero-effort set of adaptor jacks. personally, i think the ID adapters are a bit overpriced for what they are, and that we can do better and get better compatibility with more flexibility if we manufacture the more open alternative ourselves.

Trouble is, 'easy-to-build' and 'compact' are mutually exclusive! The easiest to build would be a PCB that has sockets to take a Teensy-with-pins, socket(s) for keyboard(s), and provision for mounting in a case. Anything as compact as the ID would involve surface mount soldering, and casing it would be tricky too. Hasu's neat PCB sort of sits in the middle of those two options.

If we could find one of these that already ran at 5V and had some pins broken out, we'd be most of the way there!

[mkawa]

why would a teesny even be involved? it's a prototyping platform that ironically sacrifices space to give you full access to a selection of extremely standard AVRs over USB, and it uses a gigantor USB port. the only thing that has to be interchanged is the non-universal serial side connector, and there is no way that would be socketed or on the pcb at all (which would be potted like these are anyway).

instead, you would surface mount a small durable easy to diy connector with say 8 pins -- let's call it the soarer connector -- and they let people go crazy builidng soarer to * wires. the soarer connector would probably just be a repurposes usb mini B or something similar, but anyway, absolutely possible to scrunch the thing into the size of the ID adapter, easy even. how do i know it's possible? because these ID guys did it and are making a killing charging us 10 bucks a pop for them.

anyway, we're getting OT. the first step is to vend some pretty high quality premade adapters. everything else is future work.

[Soarer]

Why? Because it exists and gets all the surface mount soldering out of the way, which makes it more DIY-friendly. I don't know what quantites would be needed to get a custom potted converter + adapters made economically - that's my concern rather than whether it's possible to do. SMT is certainly not DIY-friendly!

[mkawa]

for boards that size and chips that common the unpotted MOQ is the within range of the number of premade adapters i'm buying. as for casing/potting, i was probably going overboard when i mentioned potting. all we really need is a nice small 3d printable case design that can be pumped out. that way we can even get a range of colors

[mkawa]

have i mentioned i'm buying a pink spool of abs next week? AWWW YEAAAAA

[dorkvader]

Another good part about hte ID innovations is that they support 6KRO.

[mkawa]

i actually have these in stock as of yesterday. we're just getting a simple storefront up and waiting for the krytox grease to come in. you should be able to purchase these next week