Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint

[lowpoly]

Three mouse buttons is a MUST.  I didn't realize until now it has only two.  Middle button is the standard way of pasting the clipboard content in most Unix systems, and it's used for many other kinds of useful things.  It wouldn't be quite right if it had only two.  Just my 2¢.

I agree, I'm just in denial. :smile:

[wellington1869]

I kind of like the trackball-in-spacebar idea.

if you split the two buttons into three buttons, make a "V" shape for the cut (like on some ibm thinkpads), where the inside of the V is the third button.  It will be easier that way to feel where the third button is with your finger without having to look down.

[wellington1869]

sweet

[vils]

Very nice, it has been a pleasure to read all 18 pages. I really like the trackball placement, and I prefer that before a stick. Maybe makes the KB a bit less sleek, but that's a compromise well worth to make.
Put me on the waiting list.

[pmyshkin]

The trackball in the space bar is a great idea. I always thought that the space bar was unnecessarily large and a total waste of real estate. I assume you would use it with one of your thumbs for minimum movement away from the home row? If so, you'd have to vary which thumb you use depending on which mouse button you want to press, which can become problematic.

[lowpoly]

I kind of like the trackball-in-spacebar idea.

if you split the two buttons into three buttons, make a "V" shape for the cut (like on some ibm thinkpads), where the inside of the V is the third button.  It will be easier that way to feel where the third button is with your finger without having to look down.

Split the two buttons? Have a pic? I'm slow today.

Repost of a 'shop:

One of the reasons I like this is that I like Erase-Eaze. The ball in the pic wouldn't fit though, it would have to be a bit smaller. The small trackballs I posted could be either integrated into the space bar or put on a small post that went through a hole in the space bar.

If so, you'd have to vary which thumb you use depending on which mouse button you want to press, which can become problematic.

Good point. I came across this myself yesterday while playing around with the mini pretending to have a trackball. I think my favorite position for a small trackball would be between the space bar and the "B" key, taking away some real estate from the B key as well. That way it could be rolled with the index finger.

[lowpoly]

Here's a version with symbols and the case painted silver metallic (or sandblasted / clear lacquered). Still, materials and lighting are not finished:

[pic removed, final 3d on page 20]

[o2dazone]

Those renders are so sweet, nice job on concept and everything :thumbsup:

[bigpook]

that is one fine looking keyboard.

[IBI]

Split the two buttons? Have a pic? I'm slow today.

http://jonchoo.blogspot.com/2007/04/configuring-ibm-thinkpads-trackpoint.html

What about a split spacebar with some sort of three-way switch in the center for buttons? Maybe similar to the four way and press down switches commonly used on phones. Left and right could be the mouse buttons, up and down the scroll wheel and press the middle click.

[wellington1869]

I think this would work, if you embed the tiny ball into the spacebar's middle:




Re: the V shaped cut on the mouse buttons, dont worry about it, I didnt realize the mouse buttons were that far apart. I just meant this design on the thinkpad:  [update: ya, IBI got it]

[wellington1869]

low-po, I have to tell you, you've been 'teasing' all of us for like two years now with these beautiful designs. You're working us up into a frenzy. No fair, its time to put out.

[itlnstln]

low-po, I have to tell you, you've been 'teasing' all of us for like two years now with these beautiful designs. You're working us up into a frenzy. No fair, its time to put out.

So, uh, have you found yourself a nice young lady, yet?  I think you're getting a little too excited about a keyboard.  Nothing against the keyboard, it's great, but you're getting a little carried away.

[wellington1869]

by the way low-po, I reliinquish all rights to my "tiny trackball" drawing, if you want to take that with you when you go see the venture capitalists
:wink:

[Hak Foo]

Use a small thumb-operated trackball on the side, near Backspace, and two or more buttons on the top right

I'd think a trackball on the space bar would require a lot of very fine control to avoid accidentally hitting the bar.

Err...
after pondering it for a moment, I'd say "Trackball by Right Shift, buttons on outward face" for a better layout.

[pmyshkin]

I think the whole point is to avoid moving your hand from the home row, so a trackball that far away wouldn't work.

[mtl]

Compared to a trackball of the size being discussed, I think the trackpoint will be the more usable pointing device. Can you put the trackball someplace out of the way where it can be easily ignored, and retain the trackpoint?

I'm not much of a trackball user, but from what I've read on these forums, the trackball really only shines when you can flick it and let it spin freely.  If I'm not mistaken that would require a larger ball.  A trackball as small as the sample pictured a page or two back reminds me more of an Apple Mighty Mouse ball.  The user experience with a ball like that is more akin to a touchpad: roll a little, reset finger position, roll a little more, repeat...  I suppose this discussion will be moot if you can't get the manufacturer to make micro-trackballs that don't click as they're rolled.

It seems what you would need is a ball similar to the free-spinning wheel on Logitech's Revolution mice. Does such a thing exist?  I've never used a Blackberry with trackball.  How do those compare?

[lowpoly]

Thanks for the comments.

What about a split spacebar with some sort of three-way switch in the center for buttons? Maybe similar to the four way and press down switches commonly used on phones. Left and right could be the mouse buttons, up and down the scroll wheel and press the middle click.

Not sure if this could be used with the thumb? Using a joystick-like switch coming out somewhere where the current switches are. Just played around with the prototype and the current button position and action is hard to beat though.

Re: the V shaped cut on the mouse buttons, dont worry about it, I didnt realize the mouse buttons were that far apart. I just meant this design on the thinkpad:  [update: ya, IBI got it]

I guess that's why I didn't get it. Maybe I could make the whole metal stripe between the switches another switch which would keep the current design. Or add a horitontal plastic stripe between the current switches. Or a combination of the two. One of these would be my preferred solution.

Use a small thumb-operated trackball on the side, near Backspace, and two or more buttons on the top right

I'd think a trackball on the space bar would require a lot of very fine control to avoid accidentally hitting the bar.

Err...
after pondering it for a moment, I'd say "Trackball by Right Shift, buttons on outward face" for a better layout.

I'd prefer it on a post between space bar and B. But if it's small and rolling easily there should be no problem with space bar integration. Couldn't act as a switch then of course.

As for relocation, pmyshkin answered it:

I think the whole point is to avoid moving your hand from the home row, so a trackball that far away wouldn't work.

Compared to a trackball of the size being discussed, I think the trackpoint will be the more usable pointing device. Can you put the trackball someplace out of the way where it can be easily ignored, and retain the trackpoint?

Too expensive and still the home row problem with the trackball.

I'm not much of a trackball user, but from what I've read on these forums, the trackball really only shines when you can flick it and let it spin freely.  If I'm not mistaken that would require a larger ball.  A trackball as small as the sample pictured a page or two back reminds me more of an Apple Mighty Mouse ball.  The user experience with a ball like that is more akin to a touchpad: roll a little, reset finger position, roll a little more, repeat...  I suppose this discussion will be moot if you can't get the manufacturer to make micro-trackballs that don't click as they're rolled.

Good point on the size.

It seems what you would need is a ball similar to the free-spinning wheel on Logitech's Revolution mice. Does such a thing exist?  I've never used a Blackberry with trackball.  How do those compare?

I think the small ones I posted here are the ones used on the Blackberry. At least, that's what the vendor insinuated.

[wellington1869]

I think the small ones I posted here are the ones used on the Blackberry. At least, that's what the vendor insinuated.

a blackberry ball size (or mighty mouse ball size) embedded in the spacebar would work fine for me  It would be pretty neat and innovative too, I think.

[lowpoly]

Just got confirmation from the vendor that the trackballs I posted won't be available in a non-click version.

[bhtooefr]

I just had an idea that will solve the middle-button issue, taken from the fact that the middle button is offset on the TrackPoint IV.

Mount it to the bottom of the PCB, and mount the button upside down relative to the others.

[lowpoly]

bhtooefr, there is no room under the pcb at the front. Only the plastic isolation is between the case and the pcb.

I sort of made up my mind that the 3rd button will be a thin black horizonal plastic stripe between the two original buttons. This will not clutter the design and have a different tactile sensation than the other buttons.

I finally finished the 3D. For now. As soon as this goes into construction I'll have to update. But for now I'm done and can start with the preview web site.

So, here they are:





Black matte, provided I can find paint for the body that will last:




I love glossy keycaps, think expensive fountain pens:



Silver/black variants/angles:



Upper left: anthrazite, upper right: cream keycaps, lower left: chocolate. These are not likely to happen though:



And I can now render animation sequences in all color combinations with just a few clicks:

[itlnstln]

That cream and chocolate version makes me want to do naughty things.  Will these be available with Cherry browns as well?  I'd buy one regardless, though.
 
Please try to make the chocolate and the cream/chocolate ones.  I know I am not the only one who will want one (or twelve).

[bigpook]

Incredible work lowpoly. Each one is beautiful but I am liking the cream and chocolate one the best. Cherry blues or browns would work for me. Black alps would be neat too.

[o2dazone]

I love this thread, lowpoly

[lowpoly]

Thanks for the nice comments. :smile:

Today I had a first external date which had a tiny, tiny possibility to turn into VC but didn't for a number of reasons. I won't go into details, it was a "read between the lines" situation and I'm not sure if I did that right.

Turned out the guy didn't like pointing sticks at all.

So, this made me look into the trackball issue again. The Blackberry trackball and the mighty mouse look like they are the same construction with minor differences. Very different to the one I posted here lately. It uses hall effect sensors to read the cycles. These balls catch dust and dirt and are not easy to clean though. Might not be the right thing after all.

There are also tiny mousepads available for mobile phones that (maybe) could be applied to the top of the space bar. Didn't find simple OEM versions yet.

[wellington1869]

low-po, based on your meeting today, what would you say are the main hurdles for VC?

[wellington1869]

There are also tiny mousepads available for mobile phones that (maybe) could be applied to the top of the space bar. Didn't find simple OEM versions yet.

one possible advantage of a tiny mouspad on spacebar would be tap-click for left button (and additionally possibly maybe even corner-tap functions, tho tap-click by itself would be pretty cool).

Here's another wacky brainstorming idea: Split the spacebar in two, with tiny mouspad in between the two halves. 1/3 1/3 1/3 length.

[wellington1869]

btw I really like the 'old school' beige/black model:




You should call that model "the antique".

[itlnstln]

btw I really like the 'old school' beige/black model:
 

Show Image

 
 
You should call that model "the antique".

That would be cream and (dark) chocolate. You need to check your contrast. ;)
 
I would hurt people for this 'board.

[wellington1869]

That would be cream and (dark) chocolate.  You need to check your contrast.

lol, whoops  either way its delicious

me wanty!

[lowpoly]

:smile:

low-po, based on your meeting today, what would you say are the main hurdles for VC?

As of now the difficulty to estimate how many people will buy it.

[wellington1869]

:smile:


As of now the difficulty to estimate how many people will buy it.

can you give them an indication of the overall specialty-keyboard market, maybe by pointing at DSI, Matias, Das (the Das story may be especially analogous to your story)?

And/or maybe do some market research polling to show them the response and interest to your keyboard?

And tell them the size of the actual keyboard market is, technically speaking, "unlimited"? With lots of opportunities therefore for specialization and niche products?

I mean, the keyboard market is a bit like the sneaker market.  The actual size is vast. And its that huge size that provides so much opportunity for innovation, specialization, differentiation, branding etc.

The challenge here isnt the market itself, which is there and is unlimited. The challenge here is in branding and in the right marketing to reach the core trend-setters among the consumers.  To "create a market" for style and innovation and ergonomics  when sorrounded by mass market keyboards that lack all three.

[lowpoly]

Thanks for the suggestion. It will be hard to get some numbers though. My plan was to create the preview website, submit to some tech blogs and evaluate the response.

I have to sleep over this and re-evaluate tomorrow.

Hires pics of the cream and chocolate mockups:

[wellington1869]

lowpo - maybe on the preview site, let users put their names on an email list for release information, that may give you some numbers in terms of interest (along with site visits).

Also it would not take very much to put up a table at your local mall on one weekend, take your mockup with you, put up a sign announcing the product, and video tape people's comments and responses to it and ask them if they'd buy it and etc.

You could even hire a company to do that sort of basic polling or market research, it wouldnt cost that much, and may give you more ammunition with the VC guys.

You need to capture the 'gut-level' response that your keyboard elicits. If the VC guys dont see that phenomenon, then you need to make them realize that the consumer market does have that kind of reaction to it.   I mean your board is basically the ipod of keyboards.  You only need to convince your VC guys of that consumer fact.

[lowpoly]

I mean, the keyboard market is a bit like the sneaker market.  The actual size is vast. And its that huge size that provides so much opportunity for innovation, specialization, differentiation, branding etc.

The challenge here isnt the market itself, which is there and is unlimited. The challenge here is in branding and in the right marketing to reach the core trend-setters among the consumers.  To "create a market" for style and innovation and ergonomics  when sorrounded by mass market keyboards that lack all three.

(Last post was before your edit).

 I'll try the sneaker example next time. The marketing argument may backfire. Reaching the core trend-setters may be as difficult as intentionally producing a song that will reach #1. Creating a market may also sound like $$$ to a VC.

[wellington1869]

 I'll try the sneaker example next time. The marketing argument may backfire. Reaching the core trend-setters may be as difficult as intentionally producing a song that will reach #1. Creating a market may also sound like $$$ to a VC.

I see what you mean. Interesting.

So maybe one thing to do, though, is to show them actual comments from actual users (online or at the mall) to indicate the intensity and level of interest.

may be as difficult as intentionally producing a song that will reach #1.

well your counter argument there should be:  the song isnt being produced without test marketing and feedback - the right analogy is: here is a demo of a song, and here is what listeners (from radio dj's to people on the street) think about it and how they're reacting to it.

[chongyixiong]

I've been following this thread for quite awhile, and while the discussion was going on without the 3-D mockup pics, I couldn't quite get the gist of all the technical stuff..

However, the blank black keys with the aluminium-finish silver on the base is SIMPLY wonderful!

Keep up the good job.. anyway I'm still in for one, no matter how long this takes!

[bhtooefr]

The cream/brown looks awesome.

[wellington1869]

The cream/brown looks awesome.

thats the one i want too

low-po, lets get this thing in a shipping box already.

[bhtooefr]

lowpoly, sent you a PM.

[lowpoly]

Sorry for not answering so far, I have to mull it over.

[bigpook]

I agree on the cream version. That chocolate trackpoint is just the coolest looking thing.

[itlnstln]

I agree on the cream version. That chocolate trackpoint is just the coolest looking thing.

If this is the only model you make, please make this one.  You will make a lot of people happy.

[wellington1869]

lowpoly, sent you a PM.

did you offer to buy his stock of prototype boards?

[bhtooefr]

No, but I did send him some info on a webcast that he can take it on if he wants, and there MAY be some investors watching (I'm not sure if there actually are or not, but the hosts have been trying to get some.) If nothing else, the audience will love it just because of how well done of a hack it was.

I'll go ahead and link to it... http://www.fatmanandcircuitgirl.com

[lowpoly]

Thanks for the replies and sorry for answering late, I needed some time off. I'll keep the comments on the cream version in mind. :smile:

lowpo - maybe on the preview site, let users put their names on an email list for release information, that may give you some numbers in terms of interest (along with site visits).

Will do. Also different languages.

Also it would not take very much to put up a table at your local mall on one weekend, take your mockup with you, put up a sign announcing the product, and video tape people's comments and responses to it and ask them if they'd buy it and etc.

Not sure if this will work with such a specialized product. This was actually one of the counter-arguments in the meeting: advantages not immediately obvious. I should make a pic that shows the "never leave home" scenario. Would have been a nice domain name as well. But it's taken.

You could even hire a company to do that sort of basic polling or market research, it wouldnt cost that much, and may give you more ammunition with the VC guys.

I first have to digest that meeting fully.

You need to capture the 'gut-level' response that your keyboard elicits. If the VC guys dont see that phenomenon, then you need to make them realize that the consumer market does have that kind of reaction to it.   I mean your board is basically the ipod of keyboards.  You only need to convince your VC guys of that consumer fact.

I actually showed some quotes I collected over the months (and thanks for adding another one, btw. :smile:). I have to talk to a real VC next and continue with the preview site.

Key layout:

If I'm going to participate in the web cast I have to finish the 2nd layer layout. This is still on the todo list. My plan was to put the cursor keys on wasd like bhtooefr suggested but I think I'm not going to do it. Of course wasd is a beautiful concept with it being the de-facto standard for direction keys in the alpha part.

What made me change my mind is that almost everyone will have memorized shift/alt/ctrl combinations with the cursor keys. Putting the cursor keys on the left hand will void the muscle memory for these combinations. So the cursor keys have to be on the right side if you don't want to re-learn your left hand as well.

So which keys. I'm not good with the pinky. So I don't want to have the most used keys on the pinky.

Not having done any statistics I'd estimate that I use the cursor keys the most, then home/end, then page up/down. Leading to the following layout:

Cursor "Inverted T" on J K L and I.
Home/end on ; and '
Pg up/dn on U and O

Insert on M

Print Screen on P
Scroll Lock and Pause on < and >

Let me know what you think of this.

[wellington1869]

Cursor "Inverted T" on J K L and I.
Home/end on ; and '
Pg up/dn on U and O

Insert on M

Print Screen on P
Scroll Lock and Pause on < and >

Let me know what you think of this.

personally i'd like to see this:



I think left/home and right/end placed on left side and right side of the inverted T (as above) is intuitive when you're typing. Thats how my own autohotkey layout is, anyway.  I think its intuitive because both keys point to left side or right side when you're reading horizontally left-to-right on the page.  Similarly Pageup/dn stacked vertically is intuitive because you're going vertically up and down with them.

H (control H) is backspace on a lot of systems anyway. I think unix based systems. Would be nice to have the option to have it near home row.  

Print Screen on P
Scroll Lock and Pause on < and >

Are those keys used so often that you'd want them on the home row? If so, then "<" and ">" are probably fine, but "P" which has to be less used than pageup should maybe move.

[wellington1869]

Also, low, can you put the website for the keyboard in your signature here? I always have trouble finding it. Thanks!

[lowpoly]

Also, low, can you put the website for the keyboard in your signature here? I always have trouble finding it. Thanks!

Done. But there's nothing more than in the thread. Preview site coming.

personally i'd like to see this:

Show Image

I think left/home and right/end placed on left side and right side of the inverted T (as above) is intuitive when you're typing. Thats how my own autohotkey layout is, anyway.  I think its intuitive because both keys point to left side or right side when you're reading horizontally left-to-right on the page.  Similarly Pageup/dn stacked vertically is intuitive because you're going vertically up and down with them.

Thanks for the pic. I agree it seems more logical. Unless you claim any rights, I'd like to go with it. I put home/end on the home row because I use it more often than pgup/dn. I scroll with the mouse or the trackpoint, I guess that's why pgup/dn doesn't get much use anymore.

H (control H) is backspace on a lot of systems anyway. I think unix based systems. Would be nice to have the option to have it near home row.  

I have backspace on Fn+space. No position change necessary.

Are those keys used so often that you'd want them on the home row? If so, then "<" and ">" are probably fine, but "P" which has to be less used than pageup should maybe move.

These are not on the home row? I only want them on the right half to keep the left half free for user layouts or sound. So PrtSc/ScrlLock/Pause will go to , . - now.

I'll make a render of the final layout.