[IC] Sindarin (elven) set - Group Buy Coming on 14-Dec-2012

[Matt3o]

It's a long time that I'm toying with the idea of an elf keyset. It would be based on Tolkien's Sindarin or Quenya.

The following is a Quenya example:



Quenya is sharper, Sindarin is rounder, but they are very close.

We have a pretty extensive dictionary of elven words, so it might be possible to write most the modifier keys. (Eg: Control = tortho). For the words we don't have a translation we might choose the closer alternative (we will have to be creative here).

Also the numbers are pretty nice:



Do you keyboard gurus think that something like this would be feasible? There would be interest in a Sindarin keyboard?

[tipo33]

If it were to be done through Signature Plastics we would be held up by the $45 per key fee, to make the mold.  If we had trouble raising money for a Cherry replica font,  this would be even more difficult.  Lol.   That said, you could look into dye sublimation.  There have been a few group buys for them recently, and i believe Imsto can do custom legends if the order is big enough.  Me being the geek that I am,  I would probably purchase a set.

[Matt3o]

I believe dye sub would be the only way. to make a double shot we would need an incredibly high order.

colors of course need to be in the green/beige/brown/orange/grey range. I'll do some tests if there's interest.

Legend could also be with double notation (sindarin+ansi).

[tipo33]

I was hoping for Sindarin + Klingon

[Matt3o]

well, Aurek-Besh would also be nice... maybe next time

[1391401]

I was hoping for Sindarin + Klingon

For ULTIMATE novelty I think we should have elvish, klingon and aurebesh all on one key

[longweight]

Please no ANSI legends!

[tipo33]

Please no ANSI legends!

seconded.

[Matt3o]

Please no ANSI legends!

I agree with you, but if that is what it needs to get this done...

[Findecanor]

It would be based on Tolkien's Sindarin or Quenya.
...
Quenya is sharper, Sindarin is rounder, but they are very close.

Quenya and Sindarin are languages, not writing systems ("alphabets").

The most common "alphabet" for elvish languages is called Tengwar. It is used for both Sindarin and Quenya, hence the similarities between text in those languages.

You would however have to choose which language to use for textual legends on modifiers, if you are going to use text at all. Personally, I think that it would be nice to have some nice symbols. Arrows that look like arrows you can shoot, etc.

[Matt3o]

I didn't want to be pedantic, but thanks for pointing that out

[Kaysa]

I m quite interested to get one,
if it be around $60ish,
for full base kit if possible,
either subdye or Double shot is fine by me.

In my humble opinion:
I agree with the no ANSI Legend part,
since we mostly are able to touch typing,
the legend are for decorating purpose,
a normal ANSI mix would spoil the mood.
some wooden/forest/nature color scheme would be nice.

[Matt3o]

Some color ideas based on SP PBT colors. Very rough tests.

[longweight]

Love the brown and green!

[longweight]

It would be based on Tolkien's Sindarin or Quenya.
...
Quenya is sharper, Sindarin is rounder, but they are very close.

Quenya and Sindarin are languages, not writing systems ("alphabets").

The most common "alphabet" for elvish languages is called Tengwar. It is used for both Sindarin and Quenya, hence the similarities between text in those languages.

You would however have to choose which language to use for textual legends on modifiers, if you are going to use text at all. Personally, I think that it would be nice to have some nice symbols. Arrows that look like arrows you can shoot, etc.

FACT.

Love it.

[Matt3o]

Personally, I think that it would be nice to have some nice symbols. Arrows that look like arrows you can shoot, etc.

agreed! would be nice to have relevant symbols on ESC, arrows, backspace and so on. I'll keep working on this in the next few days

various images we can use as legend

[Elrick]

Love the brown and green!

Reminds me of the Nestle Aero Bar with Chocolate and Green air bubbles which I loved as a child.

Please make this soon, as I will buy a couple to go on some keyboards to help hold onto some decent childhood memories which are all too few.

Thanks for doing this, although I would appreciate having normal English Fonts on the caps....... but that Elvin language seems way too complicated for me.

[Acanthophis]

Oh oh...
My wallet doesn't like where this is heading

[Elrick]

Oh oh...
My wallet doesn't like where this is heading

Don't worry once it develops another hole it doesn't need to use, you'll get use to that type of treatment here on Geekhack (or Prison). 

[sth]

i would be totally into a leaf of lorien key... a whole elvish set probably not so much. big fan of LoTR but as far as physical effects go I prefer to keep my nerdy appreciation relegated to hunting down a nice hardcover set.

plus elves would never use cherry MX, they're topre fans all the way. or better yet hall effect.

[hashbaz]

I happen to be watching Fellowship at this exact instant!  I don't usually go for stuff like this but some elvish keys could be amazing.

A full 87-key set is a stretch, but a number row and/or some individual symbol keys would be doable I think.

I think we should try for doubleshots.  They just look cleaner and better.  Regardless, I would love to do SVGs.  Just let me know.

[Matt3o]

okay, so let's try to come out with some symbol keys to be double shot. It might attract more people and it could more easily be a successful group buy. thought?

[Kaysa]

The all green and brown+green look great....
would green modifiers+light brown(ochre) alphabet key look good?



This color matching look like some Elven Jewelry with Emerald and Gold...
what do you all think about this?

[Matt3o]

as far as I can tell SP doesn't have light brown as PBT

[Kaysa]

IC...

How about from the sample you created,
the dark green modifiers in the all green sets,
match with the brown as modifiers?

can you try to create one with this match?

I test my layout in the WASD Keyboards site,
they do not have the different green,
nor brown for selection.

[Matt3o]

I have to review all the colors if we go doubleshot with a standard legend + some special elvish keys. In ABS we have a nice ocher color but only a very dark brown (they might go well together in a double shot, though).

Unfortunately I only have a very bad picture of the ABS color set, does anyone have the real color samples at hand?

[Kaysa]

In my humble opinion, the standard legend are not necessary......
that will spoil the whole Elvish feel...

[Matt3o]

the options are:

1) full keyboard, PBT, dye sub, alpha tengwar/quenya + elvish symbols
2) full keyboard, ABS, double shot, alpha standard ansi + elvish symbols
3) symbols only ABS, double shot (just make some special elvish keys)

[Appeac]

Count me as heavily interested in a tengwar 87 set.

Not so big on the foresty themed colors, I'd like it to look as professional as possible. Maybe white on a flat colored green set, no modifiers. Or match the CCnG set colors.

[Matt3o]

I agree on keeping it as professional as possible, but I believe we have to make something distinctive (ie: no CCnG clone)

[Appeac]

I agree on keeping it as professional as possible, but I believe we have to make something distinctive (ie: no CCnG clone)

White mods and green alphas.

[boost]

These look nice

[Appeac]

the options are:

1) full keyboard, PBT, dye sub, alpha tengwar/quenya + elvish symbols
2) full keyboard, ABS, double shot, alpha standard ansi + elvish symbols
3) symbols only ABS, double shot (just make some special elvish keys)

Sorry didn't see this.

I'd go #1, Dyesub with no english. Assuming this is the cheaper option. I'd go ABS DS, whichever's cheaper.

[merijn]

I would love a set, but I'm afraid I won't have much money :<

[tadbitnerdy]

I would love a set, but I'm afraid I won't have much money :<

Same here

[Scirocco]

Green and brown and the Sindarin would be pretty cool. Not sure I'd be able to purchase more than one set, but I'd definitely be interested.

[Kaysa]

I vote for:
1) full keyboard, PBT, dye sub, alpha tengwar/quenya + elvish symbols.
No alphabet.
but that's my own preference, the majority have it say.
even the color are for reference only, if majority doesn't like it,
then make it other color.

[weasle425]

My wallet hates you but i'm very interested

[esoomenona]

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[samwisekoi]

Two things:

1) This is not going to be anyone's primary keyboard, so why not also investigate pad-printing and silkscreening? 
(IMHO, double-shot would be cool but just silly cost-wise.)

2) Is there a TrueType font set we could use for viewing and printing? 
(IIRC from my Simarillian days, the character count and mutations don't match Roman particularly well, especially the backwards-looking, multi-character mutations.)*

 - Ron (Gúrgon) | samwisekoi

*Perhaps I spent too much effort on this subject, once upon a time.

[The_Beast]

Double shot would be insane on prices because those are all new legends, so +$45 each key. Dye sub would be the best because there is no legend fees. Maybe talk to lysol and piggy back on his PBT GB, but be warned it's 100% white with no colored mods


Pad printing and silkscreening are not going to sell because no one wants them

[hashbaz]

IIRC, pad printing from SP is actually pretty expensive.  That and no one wants it.

[The_Beast]

IIRC, pad printing from SP is actually pretty expensive.  That and no one wants it.

More than cutting new legends?

[theultrazord]

So lysol is working on a groupbuy for cherry profile thick PBT keycaps. http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=31861.0

My question is if you can get an interest for at least 30 sets why not contact lysol and ask if they can add the elven set as an option to the dyesub selection?

With the options being presented already you are already going to be paying a lot so why not get some really nice quality keys out of it?

[Matt3o]

I might try to make a test layout and ask SP for a quote, but I'm afraid there won't be enough interest for a group buy.

[esoomenona]

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[samwisekoi]

I might try to make a test layout and ask SP for a quote, but I'm afraid there won't be enough interest for a group buy.

I haven't looked at Elvish writing since modern keyboards (heck, modern computers) came out.  And most of the available fonts and keyboard layouts were made before 2005, and seem to be designed to fit comfortably with the way one would compose by hand.  In particular, the modifiers used for vowels (and decimal numbers) are treated as ASCII symbols placed over or under other symbols.  And the keyboard mappings reflect that approach.

I first learned to write in the Sindarin mode reflected in the thread title. However, after doing some research, I think that a better mode for a modern writer using a modern computer would be the English "Mode of Beleriand" as used by Tom Bombadil.  (Ref TengwarHelp.pdf page 30).  Further, contrary to the conventions established by Dan Smith (in whose shadow the modern Elvish writer should always tremble) I think the keyboard mapping would be easier to use if it followed the conventions of (e.g.) an ANSI International keyboard using the AltGr as a composition key to place the modifiers.

So this doesn't seem like heresy, think of such an approach as Dvorak for Tengwar.

Such a modification of convention would mean the Tengwar characters for the "S" sound (Silme) would be placed on the S key ("s" and "S") instead of on the 8 and i keys.  Also, the decimals 0-9 could be placed on the 0-9 keys.

Admittedly, this approach is more useful to phonetic transliteration than precise rendering of correct Sindarin for text already translated into Elvish.  But truthfully, most people who bother with Elvish at all translate their own name, perhaps a saying or two, and the inscription on the Ring.  Few people write e-mails in proper Elvish.

Anyhow, I might play with the above and use a Tengwar font to mock up a keyboard that I could have made by WASD.

IMHO, such a keyboard would be useful -- well, "interesting -- to more people than an "academically-correct" version.

Sorry for the pedantry, but what do other Tengwar users think about this?

 - Ron (Gúrgon) | samwisekoi

[Matt3o]

IMHO, such a keyboard would be useful -- well, "interesting -- to more people than an "academically-correct" version.

Sorry for the pedantry, but what do other Tengwar users think about this?

Totally agree.

Admittedly it's more an aesthetic whim than the need of a keyboard to write in elvish.

Some of the fonts in the site you linked are not available, I've found this http://tengwar.art.pl/tengwar/fonty.php which seems to have them all. Some are really nice.

[samwisekoi]

IMHO, such a keyboard would be useful -- well, "interesting" -- to more people than an "academically-correct" version.

Sorry for the pedantry, but what do other Tengwar users think about this?

Totally agree.

Admittedly it's more an aesthetic whim than the need of a keyboard to write in elvish.

Some of the fonts in the site you linked are not available, I've found this http://tengwar.art.pl/tengwar/fonty.php which seems to have them all. Some are really nice.

Excellent.  I linked to the least broken site I could find -- that wasn't in Polish.  However, with Google Translate at my side, I see what you mean.  And I see that others have tried to make a font set to map to a "normal" keyboard layout.

I'll play with some of those a bit.

Thanks!

- Ron (Gúrgon) | samwisekoi

[samwisekoi]

Partial mapping (work in process) based on suggestions above.

Decimal numbers and primary characters are mapped next to approximate equivalent Latin letters/phonemes.

Vowels, punctuation and secondary characters are not yet mapped.

Empty spaces indicate I have not yet mapped anything there.  Jagged lines indicate I forgot to turn spell-check off before taking the screen-shot.

 - Ron | samwisekoi

[samwisekoi]

90% complete version using the "English Mode of Beleriand Consonants and Vowels,  (Version 2 - as used in the Hugh Brogan, Book of Mazarbul, and First and Third Copy of the King's Letter inscriptions)"

[edit]

I made this post in a rush last night, and now I see it deserves some explanation.

The keymap I've prepared, with any compatible Hangwar (Elvish) font and a keyboard with or without Elvish legends does the following:

1) All letters (except the missing Q and X) are in their normal places on a QWERTY keyboard.

2) Pressing any key will give you the phonetic equivalent of the character.  For example, pressing G will give you "ungwe", which makes the "G as in Guy" sound.

3) Pressing any number key will give you the decimal equivalent in Hangwar, although you should be aware that Elvish numbering goes right-to-left, e.g. 1984 = 4891.  (Big-endian?)

4) Pressing Mod1 and a vowel gives the long form of the vowel.

5) Pressing Mod1 and a consonant gives a common modification of the consonant, e.g. "t" becomes "th".

6) Where available, pressing Mod2 and a key gives a less-common variant.  The vowels need these for sure.

7) I've reserved the Shift for creation of upper-case letters, which are not typically used but are available.

8 ) Using this "mode" of Hangwar and a full keyboard space means that all of the modifications can be made WITHOUT using AltGr combinations.

I see a couple of errors that I will fix.  Also I will figure out and include the phonemes for Q and X.

TL;DR Typing on a keyboard with this map will automatically produce phonetically correct Elvish script.


[/edit]


Enjoy.

 - Ron | samwisekoi

[samwisekoi]

I am done with this now.  Capital letters are not normally used, and look mostly like bigger versions of the lower-case letters, so I dropped them. They are in a separate font file anyhow, so the traditional way to use them is to create a document in lower (normal) case, then add Upper case letters to the first letter of a page/paragraph, or for Proper nouns.

With that out of the way, the attached layout would be implemented by a TrueType font plus something like AutoHotKey.  The result is that typing phonetically results in correct English to Sindarin as defined by Tolkein in Appendix E of the "Lord of the Rings".

All the normal and abnormal characters are on the keyboard, so using modifiers is not needed.  However, for the purist I have included all 14 modifiers, each of which places itself over the prior letter so no AltGr gymnastics are required.  Also, I have included the entire base -12 number set on the top row.

To use:

Consonants and vowels are typed normally.  Shift makes vowels long and control adds a y to the end of the vowel.  Shift adds an h to consonants, with the exception of shift-n which makes an "ñ".  Control-n makes the "ng" character.  Typing a letter and then a modifier (above the numbers) places the modifier under,  over, or next to the letter automatically.

100% of this can be done on the 1x1 keycaps, but just to show how it looked I transliterated the mod keys into Tengwar.

If someone actually wants to do something with all of this, let me know and I'll provide you with source material.

Enjoy!

 

[esoomenona]

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[samwisekoi]

Good job, Ron! And now I fear even more, that after all of your work in mocking it up, this won't come to be...

Thanks very much!

No surprise about the future.  If only a dozen people wanted Media controls, how few will want an Elvish keyboard?  It was rewarding enough to figure it out, and frankly I think my solution is better than the traditional ones, but perhaps only traditionalists will want an Elvish keyboard anyhow.

I suspect the overlap between keyboard hobbyists (perhaps technology-geeks in general) and LOTR fans is very large.  For them the web-based generators are fine.  But a font set and keymap script that enables a normal keyboard to create Elvish might be interesting as well.

But who knows?  Perhaps a Tengwar keyboard would be more Otaku than an Otaku keyboard.

Maybe I'll have WASD make one.  Matt3o certainly gets props for an interesting idea!

Cheers!

 - Ron | samwisekoi

[esoomenona]

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[hashbaz]

I'm still up for a number row or a function row.

[esoomenona]

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[samwisekoi]

Who can find out how much the actual cost to dyesub the whole set would be? Regardless of what it is, just a quote.

Well, I've been looking at some numbers...

WASD (laser on ABS) would be $60 USD for a 104-key set.  No MOQ.

QWERKeys (in-fill on thick ABS) would be £75.00 GBP for a 51-key set.  No MOQ.

QWERKeys (in-fill on thick ABS) would probably be £25.00 GBP for a 14-key set.  No MOQ.

SP (Double-shot ABS) would be $45 per legend + $144 USD per 100 keys.  Impractical at low volumes.

SP (Pad printed) would be less, but nobody likes them.

I've asked Melissa at SP for the dye sub costs.

 - Ron

[samwisekoi]

I can tell you the keyboard script means nothing to me personally, though it is very interesting, and a very nice plus for those it does interest. For me, it would be just that, an Otaku capset. I don't know enough (read: anything) about Elvish, only that it looks nice and IMO would fit well on a keyboard. That is why I would pay for a set, as I'm sure others in this very thread feel as well.

Okay then.

This version is how the keyboard could look in Green on White.  All of the 1x1 keys are correct.  The mods are almost entirely transliterations of the English into Tengwar.  (So the escape key reads "Ess K Ay P".)  The function keys are correct in base-12 in the Elvish numbering style.

So a set of 1x1 keys would provide both the look as well as the function.  The mods are cosmetic, and could easily be blank or just Icons.

FWIW.

 - Ron | samwisekoi

[hashbaz]

This set would be wicked on one of 7bit's ridiculously small toy keyboards.

[samwisekoi]

This set would be wicked on one of 7bit's ridiculously small toy keyboards.

Wow, yes!

I didn't read all 8 pages of the thread.  Do those exist in the real world?

 - Ron | samwisekoi

[esoomenona]

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[esoomenona]

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[samwisekoi]

Who can find out how much the actual cost to dyesub the whole set would be? Regardless of what it is, just a quote.

Ok, I have quotes back from Melissa (SP) for 2-shot. dye-sub, and pad print.  Skipping quickly to the dye-sub option, set-up is a one-time cost of $50.

Including the set-up cost, full 59-key set prices are:
10 sets @ $69/set
15 sets @ $58/set
25 sets @ $49/set
50 sets @ $42/set

Without the function key row, 46-key set prices go down a bit:
10 sets @ $66/set
15 sets @ $54/set
25 sets @ $45/set
50 sets @ $39/set

Just the 13-key number row is even less:
10 sets @ $29/set
15 sets @ $22/set
25 sets @ $18/set
50 sets @ $14/set

The attachment shows the entire set.  The top row is Escape + function keys.  The second row is numbers and modifiers.  The bottom three rows are alphas and punctuation.

 - Ron | samwisekoi

[esoomenona]

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[samwisekoi]

I may be confused, but what constitutes 59-keys?

13 Escape through F12    (Function key row)
13 Tilde through +=    (Number key row)
12 Q through }]       
11 A through "'
10 Z through ?/

59 Total keys.

[esoomenona]

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[samwisekoi]

That's what I was thinking. And what of a modifier set? I would assume it would essentially double the price.

I didn't quote those, but they charge $70/set for a set of mods in their normal fonts, so I imagine double is a good estimate.

Blanks in a contrasting color from their inventory or WASD might be easiest.

 - Ron | samwisekoi

[esoomenona]

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[Matt3o]

the idea was to build a complete elfish keyboard with modifiers and all, it would make little sense to have a Sindarin alpha with standard modifiers. Thoughts?

[samwisekoi]

Getting prices for 87-key set now.

 - Ron | samwisekoi

[esoomenona]

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[samwisekoi]

25 sets   $107.65 per set
50 sets   $94.15 per set
75 sets   $89.65 per set
100 sets   $87.40 per set

Plus a one-time set-up cost that I think will be $50.

 - Ron | samwisekoi

[esoomenona]

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[samwisekoi]

Ron, is that with the whole set being the same? What about if the modifiers were a different color? (Sorry if I'm being nitpicky here...)

If the price isn't any different for that, I think if we could shoot for 50 sets, it would be reasonable. If we hit 75 :| even better!

I think it is with all keys the same color combo.  I expect an answer in the morning.

Regardless, attached is an 87-key layout in proper Tengwar.  As before, the mods are transliterated, not translated.  If someone wants to translate the mod legends, I'll update the SVG file.

 - Ron | samwisekoi

[esoomenona]

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[samwisekoi]

Do those arrows have any relation to the language? Or are they some of your choosing?

The arrow keys are the "white feathered arrows" from the Elvish font.  The other arrows (tab, caps lock, etc.) used the appropriate arrows from the font as well.

All of the arrows are easy to swap out with other vector-based arrows.  Everything in a TrueType font is vector-based.

 - Ron | samwisekoi

[esoomenona]

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[Matt3o]

Great work Ron. I believe we just need better modifiers. Maybe some icons and translated mods (as we discussed at the beginning of the thread). Let me work on it.

[Matt3o]

After a pretty extensive research this is what I've come up with. Terms ending with "-" are verbs followed by a suggested verbal form. I'm using participle which seems pretty elegant, but we could use other verbal forms. For some keys I had to be "creative"

Code: [Select]

Escape: nuitha-, nuithol [prevent from coming to completion] | awartha-, awarthol [abandon] | drega-/dreg-, dregol/dregel [flee]
Control: tortha-, torthol
Super/winkey: orchal
Alt: seidia-, seidiol [set aside]
Shift: ortha-, orthol
Tab: laba-, labol (part.) or labad (ger.) [hop]
Enter: minna-, minnol (not exactly the meaning we are looking for... but still it means litterarly "enter")
Home: bâr
End: meth
Ins: nestag-, nestagel
Del: dag-, dagel [slay]
Pg up: ambenn [up]
Pag dn: dadbenn [down]
Pause: dar-, darel
Page break: breitha-, breithol
Backspace: drava-, dravol [hew] | trevad-, trevadel [traverse]

[samwisekoi]

After a pretty extensive research this is what I've come up with. Terms ending with "-" are verbs followed by a suggested verbal form. I'm using participle which seems pretty elegant, but we could use other verbal forms. For some keys I had to be "creative"

Code: [Select]

Escape: nuitha-, nuithol [prevent from coming to completion] | awartha-, awarthol [abandon] | drega-/dreg-, dregol/dregel [flee]
Control: tortha-, torthol
Super/winkey: orchal
Alt: seidia-, seidiol [set aside]
Shift: ortha-, orthol
Tab: laba-, labol (part.) or labad (ger.) [hop]
Enter: minna-, minnol (not exactly the meaning we are looking for... but still it means litterarly "enter")
Home: bâr
End: meth
Ins: nestag-, nestagel
Del: dag-, dagel [slay]
Pg up: ambenn [up]
Pag dn: dadbenn [down]
Pause: dar-, darel
Page break: breitha-, breithol
Backspace: drava-, dravol [hew] | trevad-, trevadel [traverse]

Awesome!  I'll put these and some new -- more Elvish -- arrows in place.  Perhaps from this font: http://ttfonts.net/font/2968_ArrowMatic.htm

Instead of "Enter", what about "New Line", which is "cîw tî"?
http://www.jrrvf.com/hisweloke/sindar/online/sindar/dict-en-sd.html

 - Ron | samwisekoi

[Matt3o]

"new line" would be good for "return", but the "enter" key is actually now used as a confirmation not just to go to a new line (like in old typewriters). thoughts?

Also I'd like to make some custom graphics for ESC, arrows, capslock and possibly the 3 top right buttons. One of them could be the lidless eye, another a ring and so on. If we have to do this, we have to do it right!

[adreamer]

25 sets   $107.65 per set
50 sets   $94.15 per set
75 sets   $89.65 per set
100 sets   $87.40 per set

Plus a one-time set-up cost that I think will be $50.

 - Ron | samwisekoi

Sorry, newbie here

One set means only keycaps or the whole keyboard?

[Matt3o]

keycaps

[hashbaz]

Also I'd like to make some custom graphics for ESC, arrows, capslock and possibly the 3 top right buttons. One of them could be the lidless eye, another a ring and so on. If we have to do this, we have to do it right!

Hmmm I actually think using LOTR elements is a bad idea for this set.  It should be just elvish and elvish symbols IMO, as if elves had made a keyboard.

[Matt3o]

good point Hash, even though we are talking Sindarin... which it Tolkenian. Anyway I agree on removing LOTR from the equation, the main point remains though (ie, make some elfish graphics).

Ron, would you send me the file you are working on so I could add some iconography?

[samwisekoi]

good point Hash, even though we are talking Sindarin... which it Tolkenian. Anyway I agree on removing LOTR from the equation, the main point remains though (ie, make some elfish graphics).

Ron, would you send me the file you are working on so I could add some iconography?

Um, sure.  Do you have a Linux (Debian, Ubuntu, Mint) computer that can run Inkscape?  If not, just create SVG graphics in anything and send them to me and I'll put them in.

FWIW, I am very much agreed that Elvish iconography would be excellent to have.  I am ambivalent re LOTR images.  (Pro: More people interested.  Con: Unlikely to have been on Elrond's magical auto-scribe.)  And in this context, I would come down on the side of including Tolkein-esque  iconography that wouldn't have offended Elrond.

But mostly I don't think pixellated bitmaps would add to the design.

 - Ron | samwisekoi

[Matt3o]

Um, sure.  Do you have a Linux (Debian, Ubuntu, Mint) computer that can run Inkscape?  If not, just create SVG graphics in anything and send them to me and I'll put them in.

Arch Linux here! Send it to my nickname at gmail or host it somewhere we can share. Thanks.

But mostly I don't think pixellated bitmaps would add to the design.

vector FTW!

[samwisekoi]

"new line" would be good for "return", but the "enter" key is actually now used as a confirmation not just to go to a new line (like in old typewriters). thoughts?

Well, technically it is the "Return" key.  The "Enter" key is on the ten key pad.  (I happen to have a full-size keyboard plugged, so I could even check the scan codes.)

Even so, I think the word "enter" in the context of a keyboard means either "go to the next line" as in text entry (like I am doing right now.) Or it means "please accept this entry" as it would if the [Post] button was the default.  I don't think an Elvish word meaning "come in" works.

All of the above is probably too pedantic for anonymous moose and his ilk (elk?).  I'd like to check various translations to see how they look when set in Tengwar.  Coolness counts, especially with custom iconography!

Just my $.02,

 - Ron | samwisekoi

p.s.  I noticed last night that thanks to you, I am starting to be able to read in Tengwar -- about as well as my five year old son can "read" in English.

p.p.s.  Arch Linux?  Geez.   I sincerely apologize for the "(Debian, Ubuntu, Mint)" remark.  And I also thank you for not getting all "GNU plus Linux" on me.

p.p.p.s.  So would Randy call you an Elf, a Man, a Dwarf, or a Wizard?  You're looking pretty Elf-ish from where I'm sitting.

[Matt3o]

Well, technically it is the "Return" key.  The "Enter" key is on the ten key pad.  (I happen to have a full-size keyboard plugged, so I could even check the scan codes.)

Actually... I have "enter" on my Filco tenkeyless. Anyway, I agree on using the most visually appealing solution.

All of the above is probably too pedantic for anonymous moose and his ilk (elk?).  I'd like to check various translations to see how they look when set in Tengwar.  Coolness counts, especially with custom iconography!

Just to be even more pedantic, you can try both neledh- and minna- for enter. Anyway we are arguing on "enter" when we have "slay" for Del key

Also I used participle as verbal form, we could use the infinite or present form depending on which one we like most.

p.s.  I noticed last night that thanks to you, I am starting to be able to read in Tengwar -- about as well as my five year old son can "read" in English.

one never knows, you might always need to speak some elvish.

p.p.s.  Arch Linux?  Geez.   I sincerely apologize for the "(Debian, Ubuntu, Mint)" remark.  And I also thank you for not getting all "GNU plus Linux" on me.

No offence taken, mortal.

p.p.p.s.  So would Randy call you an Elf, a Man, a Dwarf, or a Wizard?  You're looking pretty Elf-ish from where I'm sitting.

Is there anything else apart from elves?

[hashbaz]

Possible Esc or Win key idea (properly iconified and vectorized of course):

[esoomenona]

.

[samwisekoi]

Actually... I have "enter" on my Filco tenkeyless. Anyway, I agree on using the most visually appealing solution.

Go run xev on that key, my man.

Is there anything else apart from elves?

I, personally, am a Man trying to be a Wizard.  At work I am surrounded by Dwarves with an Elf to keep us honest.  I cannot always tell if our clients are Men, Hobbits, or Orc.

And now we should return this thread to its topic, and leave the Cryptonomicon for an OT thread.

 - Ron | samwisekoi

[Matt3o]

Go run xev on that key, my man.

"my elf" you mean, right?

guys... this is gonna be the best keyset ever! Anyway I doubt we can reach the 50 tier...

[samwisekoi]

Contrasting mods don't change the price for the 87-key set:

Will all the modifiers be one color?

Yes.

For example base keys in white with green legends and modifiers in pale green with brown legends.

Then no, there is no additional charge for this.
Thanks!
Melissa

So...
25 sets   $107.65 per set
50 sets   $94.15 per set
75 sets   $89.65 per set
100 sets   $87.40 per set

Plus a one-time set-up cost that will be $50 to spread across the set.

Who is gonna run the GB?

 - Ron | samwisekoi

[guilleguillaume]

Who will produce the keys?

I'm really interested in anything related to dwarves or elves.

[samwisekoi]

Who will produce the keys?

I'm really interested in anything related to dwarves or elves.

If we can get enough people, SP will.

87-key set priced above.

 - Ron | samwisekoi

[Matt3o]

to the base price you have to add the setup fees, shipping from SP, paypal fees, packaging and shipping to the end point. One set could easily end up costing $120. We might ask to some Tolkien community if they are interested, maybe we can reach the 50 or 75 tier (and even receive feedback regarding the layout).

I could run the GB but I'm in Europe and I believe there are custom fees involved, I may try to ask to 7bit (or ask a quote to an EU company).

[esoomenona]

We should bang out a color scheme while we're here, before going into GB status.

[samwisekoi]

We should bang out a color scheme while we're here, before going into GB status.

Good idea.  Remembering that dye-sub legends have to be darker than the keys, and that Tolkein's elves were Woodland creatures...

http://keycapsdirect.com/images/Customized/ABSColors.jpg

#1 Base: White (WFK) with Dark Green legends.  Mods: Pale Green (VBQ) with Dark Brown legends.

#2 Base: Light Grey (GCF) with Dark Green legends.  Mods: Green (VV) with Black legends.

My initial thoughts.

 - Ron | samwisekoi

p.s.  Tolkein/LOTR groups are a great idea!

[esoomenona]

Are the legends only allowed in the colors shown in the picture? I don't see any brown...

[hashbaz]

My impression is that any of SP's regular colors can be used, as long as they have stock.  I think Melissa just posted that smaller set to keep it simple and not overwhelm people.

[guilleguillaume]

I think the PBT colours are different from the ABS ones.

I understand we are thinking about PBT dye sub.

[hashbaz]

Ah, yeah, guilleguillaume is quite right.  We need to choose from the PBT colors, which are different.

[esoomenona]

Is there an image of those?

[guilleguillaume]

Is there an image of those?

Yes.

Here we go:


Full size img link

[samwisekoi]

Ah, yeah, guilleguillaume is quite right.  We need to choose from the PBT colors, which are different.

Are dye-sub keys by definition PBT?  Re-reading all my mail with SP plastic type was not mentioned.  ABS was an assumption on my part.

 - Ron | samwisekoi

[hashbaz]

Yes.  ABS can't be dyesubbed and PBT can't be doubleshot.  The price tiers are different too.

[samwisekoi]

Yes.  ABS can't be dyesubbed and PBT can't be doubleshot.  The price tiers are different too.

Ah, that explains why dye-sub keycap price sheets were so much more expensive.  Thanks for the educatin'!

 - Ron | samwisekoi

[Matt3o]

please let's avoid pure white. considering that light green doesn't seem attractive I'd go light grey+light blue or lavender (grey elves) and maybe red for esc. Considering that elves don't play games I'd avoid WASD Of course that all depends on SP availability.

This weekend I'll work on graphics and colors. Stay tuned.

[Matt3o]

Some tests for modifier keys. They are all vector of course. I don't know which is the dye sub resolution but I believe we have to use the less complex designs. Please send more designs to take inspiration from, I'll try to vectorize them

[esoomenona]

I like row 2, third over. But if that is too complex, I think row 2, first one (is that the Timberland logo?). I'm interested in seeing what colors you guys think will work out.

[Matt3o]

nope, no timberland logo ( http://www.factory-outlet-stores.info/images/com_sobi2/clients/3326_timberland_mercedes_img.jpg )

I believe the usable ones are:
- row 1: #4
- row 2: #1,3
- row 3: #2,3,4 (4 for the arrows)
- row 4: #2,4
- row 5: #1,3 (3 for arrows)

[samwisekoi]

Some tests for modifier keys. They are all vector of course. I don't know which is the dye sub resolution but I believe we have to use the less complex designs. Please send more designs to take inspiration from, I'll try to vectorize them

Nice.  You could sell these as tattoo flash!  Contrariwise, you could look at some Celtic tattoo flash sites for inspiration.

I like the Tree of Life for the escape key, and something like the lower-right for the arrows.

Somewhere around here I have a knot-work font I bought to design, well, tattoos.  I'll try and find it and make some small, simple knot-work arrows for things like the enter and tab keys.

 - Ron | samwisekoi



 

[samwisekoi]

Last night I compared my proposed layout to Dan Smith's traditional layout and to QWERTY keyboards.  I tried to lay out the Elvish characters so they were on the same keys as their QWERTY equivalents.  Dan Smith's optimizes composition of actual Elvish language typing.  The two approaches yield very different layouts.

As a touch typist who normally types in English, mine is easier to use, as the phonetic and numeric equivalents are on the same keycaps as the ANSI version.  For example, I placed the Tengwar "G" character on the G key.  The traditional layout places the same character on the X key.  Also, I have placed the Tengwar numbers on the number row with the required modifiers above the numbers.  The traditional layout uses the number row for alpha characters, and places the modifiers in many places across the keyboard.

The two layouts are optimized for different uses and people.  I tried to optimize for touch-typists and people who were not type-setting in Elvish.

Visually, the two keyboards are quite different as a result.  My layout looks more like a QWERTY or AZERTY keyboard.  Dan Smith's is much more special-purpose.  IMHO, my layout also ends up looking more visually attractive.

Below are mockups of both layouts.  See for yourself which you prefer.  Mine is in blue, Dan Smith's is in red.

 - Ron | samwisekoi


The samwisekoi proposed layout.


The traditional Dan Smith layout.

[JSaintS]

IN for your layout!

we have to get this done!!!!!!!!!!!!! *_* I want it so much!

[Matt3o]

The problem with a custom design is that you need to remap the keys (or the font) if you want to really write in elvish. Okay, nobody will ever write elvish... but if we use the Dan Smith's layout you could set the tengwar font and it would work out of the box. Of course to touch type in elvish you need a lot of practice, but this is another story.

That being said, if we want to reach a lotr community or http://www.elvish.org/ they wouldn't agree on anything but Dan Smith's. Even though I agree that the "phonetic" keyboard is fancier.

[esoomenona]

Would it be possible to take the font and move the characters to reflect this set, calling it something else? (Just thinking out loud in case that's a deciding factor for some that we can work past. I like the look of Ron's. The other looks too busy in places.)

[hashbaz]

If including the larger Tolkein enthusiast community will get us a lot of orders then I'd say it's worth it to go with the layout they want.  Otherwise tbh I don't think we'll actually get off the ground.

[esoomenona]

Otherwise tbh I don't think we'll actually get off the ground.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avuNsyMooXo&feature=player_detailpage#t=23s

[Matt3o]

testing colors. on darker colors we have to use black for legend, on light gray I'd use dark blue or dark green. Colors are PBT compatible. Grays can be warm (as shown in the pictures) or cold.

[samwisekoi]

Would it be possible to take the font and move the characters to reflect this set, calling it something else? (Just thinking out loud in case that's a deciding factor for some that we can work past. I like the look of Ron's. The other looks too busy in places.)

So, I was planning -- assuming this went anywhere -- to release it with an AutoHotKey script that enabled the use of any of the Dan Smith-compatible fonts to be used with this keyboard.  Also, FYI, there are several non-compliant font sets that were developed specifically to be "easier to use."

In any event, I've progressed the keycap layout template to be entirely vector graphics, and included some improvements I made while researching the layout conflicts.  I have only done the function, numeric/mod and alpha keys so far.  (Matt3o, I'll do a merge when you send me your SVG.)

 - Ron | samwisekoi

[gimpster]

I like the idea of this set. Are we still trying for a full double-shot set? If so, I think gold (like maybe the YBZ) on dark gray/black would look very cool.

[Matt3o]

I like the idea of this set. Are we still trying for a full double-shot set? If so, I think gold (like maybe the YBZ) on dark gray/black would look very cool.

nope, double shot would be ridiculously expensive. It will be dye-sub.

[Matt3o]

I'm working on a different layout. The exceptional work of Ron is based on an elvish-english transliteration proposed by Tolkien (and others). My idea is: how would it be a keyboard if designed by elves themselves? Fortunately we have a classifications of elvish characters, my layout is based on this classification. You may consider this an elvish-colemak keyboard. It's not finished, there are a couple of issues that should be solved, but I'd like to receive your feedback.

[samwisekoi]

I'm working on a different layout. The exceptional work of Ron is based on an elvish-english transliteration proposed by Tolkien (and others). My idea is: how would it be a keyboard if designed by elves themselves? Fortunately we have a classifications of elvish characters, my layout is based on this classification. You may consider this an elvish-colemak keyboard. It's not finished, there are a couple of issues that should be solved, but I'd like to receive your feedback.

It's beautiful.  Very nice job with bilateral symmetry.  Frankly, a layout like this should have been the standard all along for straight Sindarin typing.  Which mode did you use?

Since you are not finished (and I can completely relate to where you are in the process) I won't niggle you with specifics.  Some gerneral items to consider:
 - The characters above 6 through 9 are probably too tall to print.  Certainly the 8/z key is.  The pale blue box on the SVG file is the printable area per SP.
 - I don't see the curl modifiers (above 3-6 on my most recent.)  I found them annoying to place; did you omit them on purpose?
 - The decimal/duodecimal placement options were also annoying, and I see what you did and why.  Still, there is room for 10 and 11 after the zero, and IMHO they would complete the number row nicely.  (They are also a perfect fit for the function key row.)

Again, nice job.

Have you consulted the TP elves?

 - Ron | samwisekoi

p.s.  Do you have that background in SVG, even as a linked file?  Also, do you have it for 104-key layouts?  Could you send me a copy of either/both, please?

[Matt3o]

It's beautiful.  Very nice job with bilateral symmetry.  Frankly, a layout like this should have been the standard all along for straight Sindarin typing.  Which mode did you use?

Thanks samwisekoi, the mode is Tehtar.

- The characters above 6 through 9 are probably too tall to print.  Certainly the 8/z key is.  The pale blue box on the SVG file is the printable area per SP.

yes you are right, I'm concentrating on layout right now more than on positioning.

- I don't see the curl modifiers (above 3-6 on my most recent.)  I found them annoying to place; did you omit them on purpose?

I'd probably avoid them, anyone I'll post the final layout in 30 mins

- The decimal/duodecimal placement options were also annoying, and I see what you did and why.  Still, there is room for 10 and 11 after the zero, and IMHO they would complete the number row nicely.  (They are also a perfect fit for the function key row.)

Agreed, it all depends if I get enough keys for the missing glyphs.

Have you consulted the TP elves?

not yet, I wanted to show them the final layout (hopefully tomorrow).

p.s.  Do you have that background in SVG, even as a linked file?  Also, do you have it for 104-key layouts?  Could you send me a copy of either/both, please?

it is a modified version of DreymaR's colemak keyboard layout released under creative commons. I'll send it to you via email (no full 104 layout though).

[JSaintS]

more you guys are speaking more I want that set to be done I love it

[Matt3o]

okay here attached a pretty close to final elvish layout. It still misses the modifier keys, functions and so on, but I'd like to finalize the base layout for now. Thoughts? The mode used is Tehtar which misses some symbols (and so making the layout easier to do).

[samwisekoi]

okay here attached a pretty close to final elvish layout. It still misses the modifier keys, functions and so on, but I'd like to finalize the base layout for now. Thoughts? The mode used is Tehtar which misses some symbols (and so making the layout easier to do).

Very nice.  I only had time for a quick look, but it all looks good.

I could not find the under-dot modifier, however.

Also, I assume you are using the "o" to show placement of the modifiers as Dan Smith did in his guides.  Perhaps when we get to dye-sub, they could be in an off-color as he did in the text.

As before, very nice.

 - Ron | samwisekoi

[guilleguillaume]

okay here attached a pretty close to final elvish layout. It still misses the modifier keys, functions and so on, but I'd like to finalize the base layout for now. Thoughts? The mode used is Tehtar which misses some symbols (and so making the layout easier to do).

I like that layout a lot but I think the standard lettering looks a bit out of place.

[Matt3o]

don't worry, standard lettering will be replaced with elvish counterpart

[hashbaz]

okay here attached a pretty close to final elvish layout. It still misses the modifier keys, functions and so on, but I'd like to finalize the base layout for now. Thoughts? The mode used is Tehtar which misses some symbols (and so making the layout easier to do).

Show Image

This looks amazing, I hope this set happens. ;D

[Matt3o]

Very nice.  I only had time for a quick look, but it all looks good.

Please double check it when you get some time.

I could not find the under-dot modifier, however.

I have some troubles with vowels because there are multiple vowels tables and they say slightly different things

Also, I assume you are using the "o" to show placement of the modifiers as Dan Smith did in his guides.  Perhaps when we get to dye-sub, they could be in an off-color as he did in the text.

Indeed the 'o' is for disambiguation. good idea to dye sub them in different colors.

[samwisekoi]

Matt3o et al,

What would anyone think about using spherical keycaps (or some modern equivalent)?  That might enable us to develop a keycap set that could be deployed three ways:

1) Phonetically (e.g. samwisekoi layout)
2) Beautifully (e.g. Matt3o layout)
3) Pedantically (i.e. Dan Smith's layout)

If anyone could live with such keycaps, I'll take a pass at working out which and how many legends would be needed.

 - Ron | samwisekoi

[esoomenona]

I've never used spherical caps, a) because I don't like the look of them and b) I don't know what they feel like because I've never used them...

I'm not saying I would be opposed, because I guess I need to try them sooner or later, but...

Though the more I look at my orange lambda keys, the more I think I won't like them. But if others approve, then so be it.

[samwisekoi]

I've never used spherical caps, a) because I don't like the look of them and b) I don't know what they feel like because I've never used them...

I'm not saying I would be opposed, because I guess I need to try them sooner or later, but...

Though the more I look at my orange lambda keys, the more I think I won't like them. But if others approve, then so be it.

This would be so much easier with a curved board like the Model M uses; then all the 1x1 keys have the same profile by default, so you can swap them between rows without a penalty in feel.

I did a quick pass, and approximately 60% of Matt3o's layout can be made with "Traditional" keycaps.  With some effort, that number would rise to about 80%.

That would mean that if we went with a keycap profile that allowed swapping between rows, there would need to be an extra number row plus another 6-10 keycaps to enable a "best of all worlds" keycap set.

It was just a thought, but in my opinion, the extra cost and loss of ergonomics make it not worth the effort.

 - Ron | samwisekoi

[guilleguillaume]

I've never used spherical caps, a) because I don't like the look of them and b) I don't know what they feel like because I've never used them...

I'm not saying I would be opposed, because I guess I need to try them sooner or later, but...

Though the more I look at my orange lambda keys, the more I think I won't like them. But if others approve, then so be it.

I think they're talking about DCS profile from SP that looks like those pics I'm attaching. I really love them.

[samwisekoi]

I've never used spherical caps, a) because I don't like the look of them and b) I don't know what they feel like because I've never used them...

I'm not saying I would be opposed, because I guess I need to try them sooner or later, but...

Though the more I look at my orange lambda keys, the more I think I won't like them. But if others approve, then so be it.

I think they're talking about DCS profile from SP that looks like those pics I'm attaching. I really love them.

DSA profile, actually. http://keycapsdirect.com/key-caps.php  (KT would have the same effect.)

And those are the perfect keyboards for that profile!

 - Ron | samwisekoi

[guilleguillaume]

I didn't remember the correct name so I wrote the only one I knew instead of checking. Thanks for the correction

They are able to do relegendables keys also. We could get one per set to put in there our elvish name LOL



Here is the info about those keys.

[Matt3o]

maybe we should just be brave and choose a layout Dan Smith's is a pretty complex layout it would need a whole set by itself. I can't see it very compatible with the other two.

[esoomenona]

Actually, those look kind of nice. I'd be in for that. I guess I have to have at least one set of those to truly know, so why not these? I really like the locks keys with the light passthrough a lot. Are those part of this option?

[samwisekoi]

maybe we should just be brave and choose a layout Dan Smith's is a pretty complex layout it would need a whole set by itself. I can't see it very compatible with the other two.

Agreed.  But by using DSA, we could try to make both of ours compatible.

[edit]
Actually, it turns out that there are only three characters in the phonetic layout that are not on the beautiful layout. With DSA and a very few changes (mostly moving characters from the shift-layer of the number row) we could make a consolidated keyset.

I'd like to make the attempt.
[/edit]

Can I have the token for the evening?

 - Ron | samwisekoi

[esoomenona]

I'm really glad Ron and Matt3o are dedicated to working on this as they are. I truly hope it becomes a reality. Good job, guys!

[Matt3o]

both mine and Ron's are fictional keyboard layouts, I don't know how much sense it would make to have them exchangeable. It would make sense to have one of them compatible with Dan Smith's, maybe. I'd try to keep to keep things simple (and cheap) or we are not going to have this finalized. Also, is a flat layout appealing to all? Don't we risk to actually have less backers?

[samwisekoi]

both mine and Ron's are fictional keyboard layouts, I don't know how much sense it would make to have them exchangeable. It would make sense to have one of them compatible with Dan Smith's, maybe. I'd try to keep to keep things simple (and cheap) or we are not going to have this finalized. Also, is a flat layout appealing to all? Don't we risk to actually have less backers?

Yes.  After spending a couple of weeks with ascii-translation spreadsheets, I am convinced I need a phonetic keyset to ever type in Elvish.

However, I might also need a Latin subscript on the keys just to be sure.  But that is just me.

I have done the character comparison, and the image below shows the key overlaps without modifiers or punctuation. If the core keycap set looked like the one shown below, we could add about 10 keys per set and enable both an aesthetic, symmetrical solution like Matt3o's and a phonetic solution like mine.  But we would require a flat keycap profile to make it work at all.


Extended version of Matt3o Sindarin layout.

It would be good to hear from the other interested people regarding profile and layout preferences.

However, this is Matt3o's thread and Matt3o's call.  I'll pause and await guidance here or via PM.

 - Ron | samwisekoi

[asura]

I've been lurking on this for a while now and I thought I'd give you my thoughts on the matter.  First understand that this is from a purely aesthetic stand point - I'm never going to be typing in elvish, phonetically, or otherwise - samwisekoi and Matt3o's layouts are both really attractive the Dan Smith layout may be correct, but it is cluttered and dis-interesting.  The one current negative for me at the moment, are the arrows on the shift, shift lock, backspace, and return.

If your set (whichever aesthetic one it be) came in at a similar price as lysol's current GB, and wasn't an abnoxious combination of colours then I would have a set purely for the beauty/novelty.

My understanding also is that although the MOQ for key sets through lysol is 200 the number can be made up of different prints with a minimum of 30 per print and he's thinking about a round two next year... surely if you get a final image set completed we can rustle up 30 sets?

[Matt3o]

just to be clear. modifiers, arrows, return, functions, and so on are NOT finalized. We are still working on the core layout. It's more complicated than I thought to design an elvish layout which makes some kind of sense even thought completely fictional. I hope to be able to show you the 100% final version tomorrow, with the completed layout we will discuss of possible keycaps profiles and merges with Dan Smith's or others.

One crucial aspect is, who is taking care of the order to SP? I can take care of it, but I'm from Europe and there will be custom taxes involved, so I guess the cost would be 20% higher.

[Matt3o]

not yet finished, but we are getting closer. sorry this is taking forever

[samwisekoi]

not yet finished, but we are getting closer. sorry this is taking forever

Really nice.  I like the arrows quite a lot.

The mods* are wandering;  please advise when they have stabilized.

Also, the separator key is now in a better spot than upper-leftmost, but it is hard to reach with the right pinkie  Can it be moved inwards?

Finally, any chance of getting the "kw" for Q and the "ks" for X?  They are "zé" and "z|", respectively.  They make a reasonably matched pair for bilateral symmetry.

Thanks very much!

 - Ron | samwisekoi

*Modifiers disambiguation:  We keyboard hobbyists use the word "modifier" to mean the Shift, Enter and other non-entry keys scattered around the perimeter of the keyboard.  Unfortunately Tolkien used the exact same word to mean little extra serifs and diacritical marks that "modify" the sounds of the characters.  Above, I was using "mods" in the Tolkienesque manner.

[Matt3o]

here is some background. I am torn between making a working layout and a fancy layout. Nobody is going to write in elvish with this, so the goal is just to make a believable elven keyboard.

The central part of the keyboard is composed by the main tengwars in order of relevance from left to right, from top to bottom. The rune on the Q key is the first elvish letter/sound (tinco), the one under the . key is the last letter (wilya). This makes sense from an elvish point of view, the letters are placed in a logical order.

All the runes are consonants. The vowels are always represented with the small dots/accents over or under the consonants (and sometimes in between).

Here comes the first issue. The position of the vowel on the consonant is not fixed. If you have 2 vowels for examples, you put one over and one under the consonant. That's why the Dan Smith's font has so many vowels around, BUT I thought that elves would have developed the automatic vowel positioning directly from the software (reread this sentence, how odd is it? ).

When the elf writes the software automatically places the vowel in the best position, the elf typist doesn't have to worry about it. That's why I used only the 6 main vowels (and not all the possible combinations like in the Dan Smith's font).

Another interesting thing is that elves actually use tengwar to count (not numbers). The first letter/sound/rune is as we said "tinco", so "tinco" is also used as number 1. Later they added the numbers like we know them, so it would make completely sense to place the numbers over the first 11 elvish characters. Doing so we would free the whole first row where we could place additional sounds.

I decided to keep the layout as you see it because it looks better and it loosely resembles an ansi keyboard.

Over or under some characters you see a dash or a tilde. Those are special characters that can be triggered with the shift key. They are not positioned randomly, but in the most sense full position based on their meaning.

Lastly there are some sounds missing, that's why I'm implementing a pure elvish keyboard without contaminations coming from Tolkien's son or later tries to make a phonetically English-compatible language. This is an elvish keyboard for elves.

how this makes some kind of sense.

[samwisekoi]

here is some background. I am torn between making a working layout and a fancy layout. Nobody is going to write in elvish with this, so the goal is just to make a believable elven keyboard.

The central part of the keyboard is composed by the main tengwars in order of relevance from left to right, from top to bottom. The rune on the Q key is the first elvish letter/sound (tinco), the one under the . key is the last letter (wilya). This makes sense from an elvish point of view, the letters are placed in a logical order.

All the runes are consonants. The vowels are always represented with the small dots/accents over or under the consonants (and sometimes in between).

Here comes the first issue. The position of the vowel on the consonant is not fixed. If you have 2 vowels for examples, you put one over and one under the consonant. That's why the Dan Smith's font has so many vowels around, BUT I thought that elves would have developed the automatic vowel positioning directly from the software (reread this sentence, how odd is it? ).

When the elf writes the software automatically places the vowel in the best position, the elf typist doesn't have to worry about it. That's why I used only the 6 main vowels (and not all the possible combinations like in the Dan Smith's font).

Another interesting thing is that elves actually use tengwar to count (not numbers). The first letter/sound/rune is as we said "tinco", so "tinco" is also used as number 1. Later they added the numbers like we know them, so it would make completely sense to place the numbers over the first 11 elvish characters. Doing so we would free the whole first row where we could place additional sounds.

I decided to keep the layout as you see it because it looks better and it loosely resembles an ansi keyboard.

Over or under some characters you see a dash or a tilde. Those are special characters that can be triggered with the shift key. They are not positioned randomly, but in the most sense full position based on their meaning.

Lastly there are some sounds missing, that's why I'm implementing a pure elvish keyboard without contaminations coming from Tolkien's son or later tries to make a phonetically English-compatible language. This is an elvish keyboard for elves.

how this makes some kind of sense.

I grokked that.  Actually did, which is probably a problem.  Also, I have the suspicion that there are precisely TWO humans who care at this level of detail about placement of characters and vowel-modifiers on this keyboard.

Sidenote question: Are you a native Italian-speaker designing an Elvish character set for an English-language keyboard?  Good on you, mate!

I would very much like to be able to type in Tengwar/English.  So as long as your design can be scripted using AutoHotKey to produce "Tenglish" from a Dan Smith font, I'm good.  And as long as it looks cool, I imagine any other GH buyers are already good, assuming we can make similarly cool peripheral* keys.

So it is probably time to sort out the other keys and colors.  We can then come back to refine the legend set further.

 - Ron | samwisekoi

* Disambiguation #2:  I am now using "peripheral" to mean Shift, Caps Lock and other keys normally called "modifiers" on this board.  I will use "modifiers" to mean "vowel-modifying marks".  (But only in this thread.  Elsewhere I will use "modifiers" to mean peripheral keys.  Sheesh!)

[Matt3o]

Sidenote question: Are you a native Italian-speaker designing an Elvish character set for an English-language keyboard?  Good on you, mate!

don't tell... this is really a hard keyboard to design (if you want to do it right), I hope other GHers understand that.

I would very much like to be able to type in Tengwar/English.

Agreed, let's do our best to make it functional.

So it is probably time to sort out the other keys and colors.  We can then come back to refine the legend set further.

Today I'll finish it. promise

[Matt3o]

Okay some keys need revision but we are almost there (I don't like the menu key, and maybe the 3 upper right useless keys, also F-x in the function row has little meaning in elvish)

[samwisekoi]

Okay some keys need revision but we are almost there (I don't like the menu key, and maybe the 3 upper right useless keys, also F-x in the function row has little meaning in elvish)

Awesome!

May I suggest some things?

 - Ron | samwisekoi

[Matt3o]

May I suggest some things?

You must!

[samwisekoi]

May I suggest some things?

You must!

Does the appearance of a source file mean that I have the token?

 - Ron

[Matt3o]

I'd say, let's keep the small changes between us (via email)

[samwisekoi]

I'd say, let's keep the small changes between us (via email)

Agreed.

[guilleguillaume]

It looks amazing. Fantastic work.

[Scirocco]

I agree. That is amazing. I have always wanted to do a case mod that has a druid/elven theme to it. This would be way hot for an accessory to that.

[hashbaz]

_Very_ nice work guys.  I'm loving this newest mockup.

[haskellelephant]

Wow, I would definitely want one of those.

[Matt3o]

Still working on colors but we are pretty close to the final thing.



The 4 red keys are exchangeable of course (that's why they are all of the same color). They also work in green and lavender.

The blue keys also work in green.



The problem is that it's hard to find the right shade without the color ring. I'm using a reference image but it's badly calibrated.

Thoughts?

[guilleguillaume]

I love the green one but don't like at all the red touch.

It looks amazing.

[Matt3o]

it also works with gray+green+lavender, but we could also use light-gray instead of red and a more colorful legend

[samwisekoi]

it also works with gray+green+lavender, but we could also use light-gray instead of red and a more colorful legend

Excellent work!

Could we see it with (a) green specials, and (b) green with lavender specials, please?

 - Ron | samwisekoi

[guilleguillaume]

By the way in case someone is wondering how those DSA profile keys look like with better pictures:

[...]

Show Image

Ordered from SP

Original thread

And some info about the keycaps coming from Sixty who have one set made from SP:

love these vintage doubleshot cherry caps:

Show Image

I'm trying to find something similar in shape... spherical that fits cherry mx switches.

anyone have a set for sale or know where to get a board I can pull them from?

[...]

I also have a set of  Siginature Plastics ones (not for sale), they are sadly not as good. They attract dirt like nothing else. If you guys do setup an order for it, I suggest not doing it in white/beige. They have a more rough texture than their normal keycaps and due to the spherical shape the dirt and grime gets "rubbed" into them.

Hard to explain, but not nice.

I really like them. I think the letters would look good on them.

[esoomenona]

I love the green one but don't like at all the red touch.

It looks amazing.

Agreed on all counts. Also would like to see lavendar, per Ron.

Personally, I'm not a fan of the dragon symbol. It doesn't feel elvish to me, but...

[Matt3o]

Excellent work!

Could we see it with (a) green specials, and (b) green with lavender specials, please?

As you wish

By the way in case someone is wondering how those DSA profile keys look like with better pictures:

If we are going to have a flat layout keycaps I believe we have to rethink the whole keyset to make keys swappable

[samwisekoi]

By the way in case someone is wondering how those DSA profile keys look like with better pictures:

If we are going to have a flat layout keycaps I believe we have to rethink the whole keyset to make keys swappable

Agreed.  But having attempted this rethink once, I don't think it is really practical.

Just my $.02,

 - Ron | samwisekoi

[samwisekoi]

This thread has slowed down for the moment, so I thought I';d bump it with a little OC.

Matt3o's layouts, except color, seem great to me.  And, by creating a matching set of alpha keys, the keyboard would become phonetic, using the Tolkien English-to-Tengwar mode.

Here are the 33 keys needed.  I would propose they be included in the GB as an add-on like 10-key pads and Moogle kits are today.


Tengwar alpha set to enable phonetic English using Elvish script.

Thoughts?  Interest?

 - Ron | samwisekoi

[Matt3o]

what colors would you suggest?

regarding the additional keys, we can try but I doubt there will be enough interest.

[samwisekoi]

what colors would you suggest?

regarding the additional keys, we can try but I doubt there will be enough interest.

Personally, I liked your green and white version.  I thought the third color wasn't needed since there is so much visual interest already.

And with The Hobbit coming out in a couple of weeks, now might be a really good time to do a group buy!

And I can always buy 33 blank keycaps and have WASD shoot their laser at them for the Tenglish caps.

In fact, can you send me the SVG so I can try and put it in WASD format?

Best,

 - Ron | samwisekoi

[danielucf]

And I can always buy 33 blank keycaps and have WASD shoot their laser at them for the Tenglish caps.

Can you send WASD black ABS (or even PBT) caps for them to laser for you? It doesn't have to be their keys?

[samwisekoi]

And I can always buy 33 blank keycaps and have WASD shoot their laser at them for the Tenglish caps.

Can you send WASD black ABS (or even PBT) caps for them to laser for you? It doesn't have to be their keys?

I am just a few miles from WASD.   When I asked the question, Weyman said he could and would do so.  However, I have not actually gotten some SP PBT keycaps to him.  I plan to do so "real soon now."

He also said to be sure to bring extras.  It will be very interesting to see what color legends the laser creates on PBT.  I also wonder if focal distance will be an issue with the lower-profile caps.

I will keep y'all posted.

 - Ron | samwisekoi

[Matt3o]

wondering what people think of all beige layouts... I saw a little hate around but I actually like them

[guilleguillaume]

I like them

[samwisekoi]

wondering what people think of all beige layouts... I saw a little hate around but I actually like them

We Model M folk can't complain -- we just call it "Pearl".

 - Ron | samwisekoi

[cytoSiN]

This is a great idea.  Any progress on figuring out final colors and cost?  Thanks!

[Matt3o]

More color combos. Green and pearl

[samwisekoi]

Another combo in 104-key format.  Pearl, Pebble & Green.

 - Ron | samwisekoi

[Scirocco]

Personally, I like the green and pearl the best followed by the pearl, pebble and green. Really great work overall.

[cytoSiN]

Personally, I like the green and pearl the best followed by the pearl, pebble and green. Really great work overall.

Seconded, although those lavender touches were nice too.  Psyched to see where this goes.

[nebo]

I'd be in for any green/pearl[pebble] or blue/pearl [pebble]. Can't offer anything to making it happen though unless we need to do some large money collection like with GB4.

[samwisekoi]

Elvish Keycap Fans:

The Sindarin Keycap Group Buy will be announced on 14-December-2012 to coincide with the release of The Hobbit.

Pricing, final colors and options will be announced then.

The keycaps will be in PBT.

And they will be awesome and totally cool.  You will be the envy of your friends, family, and co-workers.

If you are a Tolkien fan, a LOTR fan, an Elvish/Celtic/Fantasy fan, or just want the most incredible Otaku keyboard yet produced by Man, Wizard or Elf...

You will want this keycap set!

Watch for more details and remember...

Elvish Keycap Group Buy Coming on 14-Dec-2012

 - Matt3o and samwisekoi

[hashbaz]

Are we going to be reaching out to any Tolkien fan communities to gather support for this? I'll bet some of the truly hard core would buy an MX keyboard simply to have something to put this set on.

[samwisekoi]

Are we going to be reaching out to any Tolkien fan communities to gather support for this? I'll bet some of the truly hard core would buy an MX keyboard simply to have something to put this set on.

Matt3o has done a bit of this while designing his masterpiece.  Perhaps we could jump on the coattails of the buzz around the release of The Hobbit as well.

Thanks for the thought!

 - Ron | samwisekoi

[Kaysa]

More color combos. Green and pearl

The first Green and Pearl color is completely irresistible for me!
Sadly that the dragon Esc doesn't blend in for my humble opinion...
if this what come out final, I propose to make a few more option for the Esc Key....
other text or symbol or logo for the set.

[samwisekoi]

The first Green and Pearl color is completely irresistible for me!
Sadly that the dragon Esc doesn't blend in for my humble opinion...
if this what come out final, I propose to make a few more option for the Esc Key....
other text or symbol or logo for the set.

We have plans for the escape key.  Stay tuned...

 - samwisekoi & Matt3o

[Sai]

More color combos. Green and pearl

I really like the 1st set. Whatever the price, I am in for this set though I have yet to buy my TLK Keyboard. 

[cytoSiN]

Just bought a QFR (Blues) for this.  Psyched to see the final release!

[Magnusian]

If only this could be done for IBM keys without having to cut things up.

[LadyPecs]

Wow this amazing!  @_@

[cytoSiN]

If only this could be done for IBM keys without having to cut things up.

Does SP make keycaps for Model Ms?  If so we could look into that for this set?  I'd be interested for sure.

[samwisekoi]

If only this could be done for IBM keys without having to cut things up.

Does SP make keycaps for Model Ms?  If so we could look into that for this set?  I'd be interested for sure.

They do not.  If Unicomp ever does custom dye-sub we could give them the vector file to make Model M keycaps.

 - Ron | samwisekoi

[cytoSiN]

If only this could be done for IBM keys without having to cut things up.

Does SP make keycaps for Model Ms?  If so we could look into that for this set?  I'd be interested for sure.

They do not.  If Unicomp ever does custom dye-sub we could give them the vector file to make Model M keycaps.

 - Ron | samwisekoi

  Oh well.  They seem like they'd be easier to manufacture than Cherry keycaps (and cheaper too?), but outside of communities like this one, I guess there's no real demand for them.

[Sai]

i gotta learn some elvish language. 

[Kaysa]

Maybe out of the topic, but will be watching the Hobbit next week Wednesday.
would be awesome to type on it, while watching.... is that even possible.?