Author Topic: Is there an Ergodox with better thumb cluster locations?  (Read 15787 times)

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Offline jacobolus

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Re: Is there an Ergodox with better thumb cluster locations?
« Reply #50 on: Wed, 21 June 2017, 16:03:36 »
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=62848.0


Unfortunately I've been busy with other projects the past 2 years and didn't push this through to any production keyboard.

OP: the only real way to get what you want is to build it yourself. ;)
« Last Edit: Wed, 21 June 2017, 16:05:09 by jacobolus »

Offline RominRonin

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Re: Is there an Ergodox with better thumb cluster locations?
« Reply #51 on: Sat, 01 July 2017, 17:14:09 »
This looks really good jacobolus. Do you think you will get around to a group buy on a PCB for this design?

Offline rowie

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Re: Is there an Ergodox with better thumb cluster locations?
« Reply #52 on: Tue, 26 September 2017, 23:06:10 »
Or maybe, I don't know, it takes time to get used to the distance. Especially for someone who is used to keeping their thumb under the palm. Ultimately I find the thumb placement on the Ergodox more natural than having to constantly contract the thumb muscles, but beyond the first thumb button it's definitely a bit of a stretch.-----

I can definitely agree with you about how the thumb placement on the Ergodox feels "more natural."  I even have my Infinity Ergodox for almost two weeks now and I type even faster on this keyboard(s). I never realized how "under-used" my left thumb was until I started using the Ergodox. Now when I try to use a regular keyboard my left thumb gets in the way and fights with my right thumb on the space bar. I guess both my thumbs want their own key.  :)) I don't even need tenting, and I have what I consider average size hands. I can see maybe the thumb clusters being problematic or not natural if the hands are "small" sized maybe or if a person has naturally short thumbs. That is just my guess. But to each their own aesthetic preference and needs in the end. The only thing I wish was that the programming for the Infinity Ergodox can be explained more and more documents are available. I think I may need to try QMK.

Oh I still haven't tried your LCD modification application. I was able to load it, but I wonder If I can change just the LCD colors and not change the logos and numbers. I'm also afraid to try it since I don't know if my saved bin files is all it takes to revert back in case I mess up or anything. Programming the Infinity Ergodox I find is crazy though. The world of GitHub all of a sudden becomes another beast I need to get to know in order to tame it.......

Offline RominRonin

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Re: Is there an Ergodox with better thumb cluster locations?
« Reply #53 on: Sun, 20 May 2018, 13:04:48 »
The reason the ergodox thumb cluster feels so odd,  is because the majority of users are not tented high enough...

If  you are using the Ergodox @ the Proper tenting angle (50-55 degrees)the thumb cluster is perfect and easy to reach....


It probably doesn't help that the vast majority of ErgoDox pictures, including those used to market it, do not show tenting, or even a tenting angle close to 50-55 degrees.

I wonder why that is?

Where does your suggested tenting angle come from tp4tissue?

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Is there an Ergodox with better thumb cluster locations?
« Reply #54 on: Sun, 20 May 2018, 16:27:36 »
The reason the ergodox thumb cluster feels so odd,  is because the majority of users are not tented high enough...

If  you are using the Ergodox @ the Proper tenting angle (50-55 degrees)the thumb cluster is perfect and easy to reach....


It probably doesn't help that the vast majority of ErgoDox pictures, including those used to market it, do not show tenting, or even a tenting angle close to 50-55 degrees.

I wonder why that is?

Where does your suggested tenting angle come from tp4tissue?

The Neutral angle between the palm and thumb is ~70 degrees in the handshake position.

You can't do 70 degrees with a keyboard that's as thick as the ergodox, 55 is around the max.

Offline Koren

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Re: Is there an Ergodox with better thumb cluster locations?
« Reply #55 on: Mon, 21 May 2018, 05:41:47 »
Since the topic got bumped...

I like the Ergodox, but I've never been confortable with high angle. Maybe it'll come later, but I don't like anything close to 50-55 let alone 70 (and it's a pain to get high angles with good stability anyway). I don't see while the thickness has to do with tenting, though?

Not that I'm reluctant to vertical keyboards, I'm playing accordion ;)

But high angle or not, I definitively don't like the thumb cluster position. With any angle, my thumb fall on the inner large key, and I feel it should fall on the outer one (especially if you want to be able to reach the farthest 1u key) Besides, the fact that there's a hole on the other side of the inner key means you waste an easily reachable position.

So I'm definitively designing my own ergodox with basically only this change: move the thumb cluster inwards till the inner 2u key "touch" the lower row (in order to not get rid of any keys, that means changing a 1.5u to a 1u).

That being said, since I redesign it, I change two other things: 1u for pinkie outer column instead of 1.5u (I never understood the 1.5u choice, since I'm pressing them off-center to avoid overextending the pinkie, switches don't work as well) and slightly raising some columns (Logitech wave-way without having sculptured keycaps, unfortunately)



but for C on staggered qwerty board,   it's easier and a shorter move to do using index,  and it' doesn't require a hand move at all.
I totally agree, and I never understood why most typing schools advocate middle finger on C. Most, not all, the typing school I use actually suggest it. So C would definitively be under F if I used a QWERTY layout on an Ergodox. That being said, the fact that there's only 10 keys on the bottom row on Ergodox means following this logic bring an issue for B (I have a letter on the lower 1.5u on mine, but that would probably feel strange on "official" layout).

That being said, the "1 key = 1 finger" rule is bad to me, and as far as I know, (one of) the fastest typer(s) uses different fingers for the same key depending on the flow/situation. The most obvious case is TR bigram, I'll never use index for both, it's so much easier/efficient to use middle finger on R in this case.

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Is there an Ergodox with better thumb cluster locations?
« Reply #56 on: Mon, 21 May 2018, 12:28:46 »


awefawefawef



Part of the high tenting issue also requires that the keyboard (resting plain, table plain,)  be BELOW your RESTING elbow.  Arm resting at ones side,

If the table plain is near or above the resting elbow height, then tenting angle needs to be decreased. HOWEVER,  this is less ergonomic both for the wrist and whole arm.

Online smurkcity12

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Re: Is there an Ergodox with better thumb cluster locations?
« Reply #57 on: Thu, 07 June 2018, 07:33:36 »

but for C on staggered qwerty board,   it's easier and a shorter move to do using index,  and it' doesn't require a hand move at all.
I totally agree, and I never understood why most typing schools advocate middle finger on C.

I couldn't agree more about the C thing. I love my ergodox infinity. Use it all day at work. But I still type faster on my tkl at home because of using my index finger on c.

Online heyitsqi

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Re: Is there an Ergodox with better thumb cluster locations?
« Reply #58 on: Sat, 09 June 2018, 23:01:00 »


awefawefawef



Part of the high tenting issue also requires that the keyboard (resting plain, table plain,)  be BELOW your RESTING elbow.  Arm resting at ones side,

If the table plain is near or above the resting elbow height, then tenting angle needs to be decreased. HOWEVER,  this is less ergonomic both for the wrist and whole arm.


Do we have an easy graphic of this to show? I'd love to have some sort of graphic or reference to show others :)