Non clicky IBM model M

[nrp]

Have you guys ever tried this keyboard? How is the feeling?

Thanks for any info.

http://www.clickykeyboards.com/index.cfm/fa/items.main/parentcat/9608/subcatid/0/id/297254

[iMav]

I HAVE used one of these.  Frankly, there is simply no comparison to a buckling spring IBM keyboard.

[victheslik]

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[xsphat]

victor, you do have to look into it a bit before you buy or you may end up with the wrong stuff. That is what do here. I love it  

[victheslik]

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[Whiskey in the Jar-o]

Money adds up a penny saved is  penny earned for a Happy Hacking Keyboard Professional 2, no wait an IBM Model M, no wait Alps white swicthes !? ARgh! hehe

-victor

Life's too short. Get them all.

[xsphat]

word.

[victheslik]

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[mr_sf_applet]

BTW, speaking of non-clicky Model M's, a new old stock Model M Soft Touch (buckling springs greased to be non-clicky) just went on sale today:

http://www.clickykeyboards.com/index.cfm/fa/items.main/parentcat/9231/subcatid/0/id/309465

Brand new in original box, and yours for $450.00!!

[nrp]

Does anyone know?

[Whiskey in the Jar-o]

Does anyone know?

Supposedly just silicone grease.

[xsphat]

I don't think you'll find too much love for that keyboard 'round here. iMav said above that he's used one, and judging by his response, he wasn't all that impressed.

[fkeidjn]

BTW, speaking of non-clicky Model M's, a new old stock Model M Soft Touch (buckling springs greased to be non-clicky) just went on sale today:

http://www.clickykeyboards.com/index.cfm/fa/items.main/parentcat/9231/subcatid/0/id/309465

Brand new in original box, and yours for $450.00!!

It's new, but I can buy a office quality laptop for that price.  I've seen a few of them fly off on ebay for about $100 each.

As for the IBM rubber dome variant of the model M, even though I never used those, I'm guessing they have similar feel to the Keytronic IBM layout keyboards http://www.keytronicems.com/Home/shop/shop.asp?h_ck=T4N16G

[wellington1869]

I HAVE used one of these.  Frankly, there is simply no comparison to a buckling spring IBM keyboard.

Imav, could you describe the difference between the soft touch greased springs board and regular buckling springs? In terms of tactile difference and/or audio difference? I"m considering ordering a soft touch from unicomp, the more I can find out before ordering, the better... thanks

[er, never mind Imav, just realized you were talking about rubber domes]

[bhtooefr]

I've used the keyboard mentioned in this thread on my old forum...

The click is greatly muted in sound, and feels softer than a standard BS keyboard, but it's definitely still there.

But, the keyboard iMav is talking about isn't a greased springs board, he's talking about a rubber dome board.

It's been QUITE a while since I've seen that board, but it had about 75% of the tactility, with 25% of the noise.

[wellington1869]

I've used the keyboard mentioned in this thread on my old forum...

oh i see.  You really liked it huh?

The click is greatly muted in sound, and feels softer than a standard BS keyboard, but it's definitely still there.

"greatly muted" -- would you compare it to cherry blues?
"feels softer" -- do you mean the tactile "bump"'s crispness is rounded out a bit?

But, the keyboard iMav is talking about isn't a greased springs board, he's talking about a rubber dome board.

gotcha. Never mind Imav!

It's been QUITE a while since I've seen that board, but it had about 75% of the tactility, with 25% of the noise.

those numbers sound like numbers I can live with!
Thanks bhtooefr!

Now my big decision is: new unicomp or old model M...  I'm leaning towards an old model M cuz owned an endurapro once and at the time anyway I felt the key action wasnt as tactile as the originals, and that the unicomp seemed to bottom out more easily (and produced a more clacky clack at the bottom), where the model m produced a more manly thud. I wound up selling the endurapro for that reason. On the other hand, jeez, usb would be nice, shorter spacebar would be nice.

[itlnstln]

If your old M is Lexmark-made, go with it for warranty purposes with the Unicomp.  Otherwise, use the Unicomp as I don't think you would want to inadvertently mess up an original IBM 'board.

[wellington1869]

If your old M is Lexmark-made, go with it for warranty purposes with the Unicomp.  Otherwise, use the Unicomp as I don't think you would want to inadvertently mess up an original IBM 'board.

This is the one I'm considering. I think its original ibm although the guy lists the part number as "IBM/Lexmark Part# 1391401". I thought lexmark never made the 1381401.

[itlnstln]

It has a blue label, so I can say, with 99% certainty, that it is a Lexmark.  I have seen some blue labels that were made by IBM UK, but the vast majority of these were Lexmark.

[itlnstln]

Think 1391401 is the part number for that particular model regardless of the mfr.

[wellington1869]

It has a blue label, so I can say, with 99% certainty, that it is a Lexmark.  I have seen some blue labels that were made by IBM UK, but the vast majority of these were Lexmark.

I see. Are gray labels IBM? Or does it really just depend?

well I found a couple of sellers who are guaranteeing manufacture by ibm. think i'll go with them...

[itlnstln]

Silver and black/grey labels all IBM (as far as I know), and just about all blue labels are Lexmark, MaxiSwitch and Unicomp.  Some blue labels were IBM UK, but many of those were European models.

[bhtooefr]

I'll throw a wrench into it...

I'm looking right at a blue label by IBM US.

Blue label means 1993. It does not mean IBM, or Lexmark.

1391401s were produced by IBM in the US up until some time between June and August 1993, at which point Lexmark took over production (until 1994.) However, IBM was producing 1391401s elsewhere in the world - there's someone on here (if you're posting in this thread, I'm sorry - I forgot which thread it was in, or I'd check) with a 1391401 made by IBM in Mexico in December 1993.

But, Lexmark started making IBM-branded keyboards in February 1993 - the 52G9658, IIRC, which became the 42H1292, which "replaced" the 1391401.

[wellington1869]

well, here's another wrench -- the UPS guy just drove up, and I just got my scorpius M10!    Wow, its like christmas at my house.

Just opened it up and typed on it a few minutes - and I like it! I actually imagine this is what a greased down model M may well feel like -- about 75% of the tactility and 25% of the sound  Will write up a review shortly. Might hold off on the model M until I've digested all the newcomers...

[itlnstln]

digested all the newcomers

I bet the Cherry keyboards are especially tasty.  Thanks for the clarification, bthooefr.  I knew it was something like that, but that makes a lot more sense.

[bhtooefr]

And, of course, that's 1993 or newer.

And, how I said that it doesn't mean IBM or Lexmark... you can actually have a blue label keyboard made by neither. A 42H1292 can be Unicomp, or a Model M13 can be Maxi-Switch or Unicomp.

[wellington1869]

I bet the Cherry keyboards are especially tasty.

I gotta tell ya, I'm thoroughly impressed with the M10 for the moment. I'm absolutely flying in terms of typing, and feels precise (not many mistakes). M10 has texture on the keys (which I'm liking). Audio is like jingling change in the pocket. Suprisingly soft volume, for some reason softer than the das III even tho both use same switches.
Board is heavy which is nice too.
The only annoyance I can think of so far is the spacebar which is far louder than the other keys. Piece of foam stuffed under it should take care of that though.
And bro, I gotta tell ya, At101w doesnt stand a chance against this one. I mean no contest. For me anyway. This thing is like typing on ballbearings in comparison.

[lexicon]

Are we talking about the 71G4644 Model M rubber dome?  I actually have one, bought nib for ten bucks on eBay.  It's not that bad, really, probably the best rubber dome I've ever used. The throw is shorter than a real M, not too mushy, and it gives a little "thunk" when it bottoms out.  I think it would be tiring to use all day, but better than your average Dell p.o.s.

This is a Lexmark-made board from 1995, and is identical externally to true Model Ms of that vintage.

[bhtooefr]

Oh, and compared to Cherry blues... I've only typed on one board that was suspected to have them... a greased Model M is totally different.

More tactility than a Cherry blue, much higher peak force (remember, it's still a buckling spring,) about the same noise. And, it was weird... almost like the impact from the spring buckling was reduced, although maybe the curve was rounded out a bit.

[wellington1869]

Oh, and compared to Cherry blues... I've only typed on one board that was suspected to have them... a greased Model M is totally different.

More tactility than a Cherry blue, much higher peak force (remember, it's still a buckling spring,) about the same noise. And, it was weird... almost like the impact from the spring buckling was reduced, although maybe the curve was rounded out a bit.

thanks for the deets bht.

[wellington1869]

Out of curiosity, does anyone know if it would be possible to take a rubber dome ibm keyboard and convert it to buckling springs? Ie, do they use the same basic stems and keys?  One good reason for this experiment for example would be to take an IBM spacesaver layout (without the numpad and with trackpoint) that uses rubber domes and convert it to BS.  I have no idea how the IBM rubber domes are constructed, so just wondering...

[bhtooefr]

Doesn't work that way, the IBM SpaceSaver II is just an ordinary Taiwan-made rubber dome, completely unrelated to the Model M, IIRC.

[wellington1869]

Doesn't work that way, the IBM SpaceSaver II is just an ordinary Taiwan-made rubber dome, completely unrelated to the Model M, IIRC.

thats a pity.

[bhtooefr]

You'd be better off trying to retrofit the TrackPoint to a buckling spring Model M spacesaver.

And, actually, it wouldn't be that hard, except for the buttons (not enough room to mount them) - the TrackPoint on the SpaceSaver II is a completely independent unit, with a completely separate PCB.

Hmm, I've got a spare Model M top case from a dead 52G9658 (ok, it had a damaged pin on the cable, and then my 1391401's controller got hit by a power surge that destroyed a surge protector, a motherboard, some RAM (which then let the magic smoke out of a mobo I was testing it in,) a crappy 2.0 Celeron, a PSU, and of course the 1391401's controller, so I stole its controller and soldered the SDL connector onto it...) I've got lying around... if I can get a SpaceSaver II cheap... I might have my ideal "M13" - my best 1391401, combined with a TrackPoint IV.

[itlnstln]

Speaking of that, has Unicomp come out with any more details concerning the new Mighty Mouse with buckling springs, or have they pretty much scrapped that idea?

[bhtooefr]

I believe it's been scrapped.

[lowpoly]

You'd be better off trying to retrofit the TrackPoint to a buckling spring Model M spacesaver.
...
if I can get a SpaceSaver II cheap... I might have my ideal "M13" - my best 1391401, combined with a TrackPoint IV.

You'll probably destroy one or two membrane circuit paths when you drill so you have to remove the backplate and reroute. This will take several hours but could work.

pex has some photos of the membranes here.

If I do another mod it will be a Model M mini with NEO layout. Trackpoint or not, I don't know yet.

[bhtooefr]

I just took the keys surrounding the TrackPoint off on my M13, and there won't be any drilling required - it actually looks like Lexmark might have epoxied it in place. And, the cable runs between the keys, so...

[wellington1869]

I believe it's been scrapped.

is this something geekhackers could start a petition on and then submit that to jim owen? I'm ready to sign...

[wellington1869]

You'll probably destroy one or two membrane circuit paths when you drill so you have to remove the backplate and reroute. This will take several hours but could work.

pex has some photos of the membranes here.

If I do another mod it will be a Model M mini with NEO layout. Trackpoint or not, I don't know yet.

If I had the time, money, patience, and skill (and I have none of those) I would take an smk88 (for its layout, look, and feel) and convert its switches to BS (and then grease them). And then marry it and call it "Polly".

[bhtooefr]

The problem with that is...

Geekhack has 309 members, 177 of them being active. Let's assume all the members of Geekhack buy one keyboard, which we all know won't happen.

Even for a company like Unicomp, 309 keyboards is a ridiculously small run.

[wellington1869]

The problem with that is...

Geekhack has 309 members, 177 of them being active. Let's assume all the members of Geekhack buy one keyboard, which we all know won't happen.

Even for a company like Unicomp, 309 keyboards is a ridiculously small run.

Sure but I think we could argue that geekhackers are here just as a representative sample of keyboard enthusiasts worldwide. Ie, if we like it, chances are there's a much bigger market for it. We dont represent the entire market but we can represent current tastes among enthusiasts. The trend in keyboards seems to be in the direction of detachable or nonexistent numpads. It would behoove unicomp to follow that trend... maybe what they need is a little push...

[edit: I just emailed jim owen and asked about the BS mighty mouse and gave it my enthusiastic approval as a concept].

[wellington1869]

Unicomp needs to think bigger. A greased version of a BS mighty mouse just might make a comeback among the corporate secretary crowd too. I mean they need to aim for markets like that with new innovations. They're not really doing that (at least, not as rapidly as I'd like!)  I mean here they are sitting on a great technology and not exploiting it to the fullest or bringing it up to date with the times. Doesnt make business sense.

[itlnstln]

I think they even ended the production of the regular Mighty Mouse (they should still have for sale, though).  I don't think there is a big market for desktop keyboards with pointing devices built-in as most people would probably save that for the laptop.

[lowpoly]

I just took the keys surrounding the TrackPoint off on my M13, and there won't be any drilling required - it actually looks like Lexmark might have epoxied it in place. And, the cable runs between the keys, so...

On my Trackpoint IV keyboard (KPD-8923) the trackpoint pcb is under the membrane and attached to the steel plate that carries the membrane. That pcb is way too big to fit between the keystems. Highly likely that the Space Saver II does it in a similar way?

[bhtooefr]

Hmm, everything I see on KPD-8923 is that it's a TrackPoint III at best...

(That just means it's got two buttons, though, instead of three like the TP4.)

The Model M13 has the TrackPoint mounted completely on top of the plastic plate that covers the top of the membrane, and then runs a cable between the keys around to the back of the board, where the keyboard/TrackPoint controller (it's all-in-one on the M13) resides. Another cable runs under the board to the same controller for the buttons.

And, looking at disassembled pictures of the SpaceSaver II... it's the same way, although the TrackPoint does mount through the keyboard, and the stock cable does route through the bottom of the keyboard.

Unfortunately, the thing looks like it has one controller, contrary to what I thought.

[lowpoly]

It has two buttons. It looks like this one:

http://www.clickykeyboards.com/index.cfm/fa/items.main/parentcat/16019/subcatid/0/id/189771

But in white. Part no. on mine is 01k1219 made in 99/52.

Clickykeyboards is wrong here?

But those on-top trackpoints should be easy to install.

[bhtooefr]

Wait, how is the scroll feature initiated?

Technically, although TP4 is used to refer to models with the third button, the third button was marketed as an "internet scroll bar" - that is, the scrolling feature was what made a TP4 a TP4, technically not the third button. So, how was the thing put into scroll mode?

[lowpoly]

I don't think there is a scroll mode on this board. Probably it is not TP IV. I saw this 'board as TP IV elsewhere but it's the internet, they all could quote the same wrong source.