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geekhack Marketplace => Interest Checks => Topic started by: Ra66it_AU on Thu, 01 December 2022, 06:50:06

Title: [IC] Orbit 65% - Curved,Silicon Top Mount,17mm Front Height. GB OPEN NOW
Post by: Ra66it_AU on Thu, 01 December 2022, 06:50:06


Orbit
Designed by Machina
UPDATE 31-05-23

GB OPEN NOW
Vendor:
AU: www.najakeys.com (http://www.najakeys.com)
South Korea: Geonworks https://geon.works/ (https://geon.works/)
Rest of the world: www.machina.mx (http://www.machina.mx)




(https://i.imgur.com/hn8Kr0Q.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/Y8tKDnN.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/c0bH2Jr.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/0Hirchm.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/T4xVv1I.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/g2SSDcO.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/vJpOkRU.jpg)




Hello there, I am Ra66it from Australia. Introducing my first keyboard project Orbit by Machina, a 65% silicon pin mounting style keyboard.

I have been wanting a 65% keyboard ever since I tried the tadpole mounting on Frog TKL. Started last year as a personal project, I received my first prototype this October.


The main idea of the design is to keep the keyboard as slim as possible. Internally, trying to make a clean-sounding keyboard with the least amount of foam.

The external curves and internal weight pattern give me an astronomy vibe, I hope this keyboard is also in your orbit :)
The look of this keyboard is influenced by the HHKB series (HG variant and Pro2).



IC FORM: https://forms.gle/pCphkNEkyidLt7gPA (https://forms.gle/pCphkNEkyidLt7gPA)

DISCORD LINK: https://discord.gg/KZ7axT7zKg (https://discord.gg/KZ7axT7zKg)

INSTAGRAM LINK: https://www.instagram.com/machina.syd/ (https://www.instagram.com/machina.syd/)





0. CONTENTS

1.DETAILS
2.VENDOR
3.PRICE & SALES DETAILS
4MEDIA
5.COLOR RENDER
6.LAYOUT
7.PHOTO
8.DESIGN CHANGELOG
9.PROJECT STATUS
10.TYPING TEST





1.DETAILS

- Typing angle 7.0°
- Front height: 17mm
- Mounting style: Silicon pin/ Tadpole ( 3 hardness options)
- Screwless exterior design (detachable silicon feet hiding all the screws at the bottom)
- PCB: Inhouse design with USB-C daughterboard - configurable with QMK/VIA, hotswap, and solder option available.
- Will come with a matching carrying case
- Weight:  1.5kg/3.3 lbs built for Aluminium Version
               2.5kg/5.5 lbs built for Brass/Copper Version
- Materials:
     - Aluminium Top Case
     - Two bottom case designs:
     - Full PVD Aluminium Bottom Case with 4 internal brass weights
     - Full Brass Bottom Case with clear coat finish
     - Anodized/ E-coated Aluminium Bottom Case (NEW ADDED as IC form suggests)
     - Color Renders: https://imgur.com/a/FFaE7GB

   




2.VENDOR

AU: www.najakeys.com (http://www.najakeys.com)
South Korea: Geonworks https://geon.works/ (https://geon.works/)
Rest of the world: www.machina.mx (http://www.machina.mx)






3.PRICE & SALES DETAILS

Sale Format: GB (28th May 2023)
Color Renders: https://imgur.com/a/FFaE7GB
Price
* Prices in USD
** By default, comes with full aluminium plate, 70A hardness silicon pins, 1.6mm PCB, and no flex cut on either PCB or plate.

IC form here: https://forms.gle/pCphkNEkyidLt7gPA (https://forms.gle/pCphkNEkyidLt7gPA)
Added options for raw finish and copper in IC form





4.MEDIA
Lightning Keyboards Build VOD: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbM91RubDVk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbM91RubDVk)
Alexotos:https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1837661817 (https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1837661817)
DBOKEY:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZ1_dsck4Xk&ab_channel=%EB%93%9C%EB%B3%B4%ED%82%A4DBOKEY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZ1_dsck4Xk&ab_channel=%EB%93%9C%EB%B3%B4%ED%82%A4DBOKEY)
Avi
Keybored: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSQ0jrB9S7M&ab_channel=Keybored (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSQ0jrB9S7M&ab_channel=Keybored)
NearLucid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4epwWdvk2I&t=226s&ab_channel=nearLucid (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4epWdvk2I&t=226s&ab_channel=nearLucid)
Geon
Makerchun: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqXRDzC2bp4&ab_channel=markerchun (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqXRDzC2bp4&ab_channel=markerchun)
* will update here once videoes are available
(https://i.imgur.com/dUhEsRH.png)




5.COLOR RENDER
More Color Renders: https://imgur.com/a/FFaE7GB
(https://i.imgur.com/oJZkXy2.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/wgWbXXf.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/6Md9os5.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/oh6fmhe.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/M8VD5f1.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/1KoGtg0.jpg)




6.LAYOUT

(https://i.imgur.com/92tTz5d.jpg)




7.PHOTO
V1 Prototype photos
(https://i.imgur.com/iQV5Sqi.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/Z7paENu.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/myTVzLf.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/807bQk0.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/3CbYCDu.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/9xS8N6C.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/ISzykUp.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/JJzyeED.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/tCTQZKf.jpg)



V2 PHOTO
UPDATE 06-02-23
V2 Prototype photos
(https://i.imgur.com/jFgxusl.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/uVwSAIj.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/gVZjCFE.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/bNMKMXI.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/4vpawZC.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/RT04K2c.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/K0nPblG.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/97nNzF0.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/0QfRpYE.jpg)



8.DESIGN CHANGELOG
V1 Prototype
- 1.2mm PCB with flex cut
- 4 screws between the top and bottom case
- 4 separate rubber feet

V2 Prototype
- 1.6mm PCB with no flex cut
- 8 screws between the top and bottom case
- Changed to 2 long rubber feet instead of 4
- Testing Brass Patina
- Quality of life changes to the PCB
- Silicon pin positions redesigned

V2.5 Prototype
- Can confirm 1.6mm PCB without flex cut is better.
- Keeping 8 screws between the top and bottom case.
- Keeping the bezels as slim as V1.
- Redo long rubber feet molding. (failed last time)
- Testing Brass Patina (ongoing process)
- Quality of life changes to the PCB (ongoing process)

V2 Prototype Exploded View
(https://i.imgur.com/STjTgHU.png)




9.PROJECT STATUS [GOING INTO GB SOON]


V1 Log
More
After typing with V1 proto for a month, overall I am happy with the look and typing feel, the typing experience is firm but not stiff, and the 50A silicon pins allow some bounciness in the board. Personally, I always build my keyboards with plate foam, it reduces those tiny noises and still keeps the characteristics of the board. The sound is quite clean without case foam, more on the clacky side. I bearly noticed any hollowness, but it is a bit loud for my liking.

For the V2 proto, the goal is to keep the sound profile more isolated. I added more screws between the two cases and lengthen the rubber feet, hopefully, it can reduce resonance between the metal pieces, and the thickness of the top case has been increased by 1mm to make the sound more isolated.

Red arrows indicate the newly added screw holes, the placement won't affect how the space bar sound.

(https://i.imgur.com/ULq2afB.jpg)
One thing I am currently testing is the patina on the brass bottom, I have included the photo in the IC form, please feel free to check it out and leave some feedback. If you are a patina artist who enjoys my design, please please reach out to me.


V2 Log
More
V2! Lots of good news, all the changes made seem promising.
In this round, all materials have raw finishes and I really enjoy the colours, considering adding that as a GB option.
You may notice that the V2 bezels are slightly thicker than V1, but I prefer V1 bezels more after putting them side by side, will change that back next round.
see the comparison here:
(https://i.imgur.com/BDZf0Q2.jpg)

Overall the design is final now, the next round (Proto V2.5) will be the final round, mainly for review units.
I will lock in all the case colours, materials, and finishes after the next round. Please fill in the IC form if you want to share your opinion.

 



V2.5 Log

UPDATE 30-04-23
After hearing some feedback, I have changed the placement of the logo at the bottom.
(https://i.imgur.com/ZgglKz1.png)

Currently all the review units have been sent out, and more content will be released next month, meanwhile, collecting community feedback before we go GB in May. 







10.TYPING TEST

ProtoV1 Plate foam only


I overlubed my left shift lol

ProtoV2 Sound Test [NO FOAM]

Lightning Keyboards Build VOD:





Thank you all for reading till the end!



Vincent - Special thanks for the amazing photos!
https://www.youtube.com/@vincentchen1985 (https://www.youtube.com/@vincentchen1985)
ANZKEEB - Shoutout to my keeb mates, I won't be able to make this without your guys!
(https://i.imgur.com/4A6Y4kY.jpg)

[/list]
Title: Re: [IC] Orbit 65% - Silicon Pin Top Mount, 17mm Front Height, With Curves
Post by: Ra66it_AU on Thu, 01 December 2022, 06:53:04
More
(https://i.imgur.com/WhZuGg7.jpg)
Title: Re: [IC] Orbit 65% - Silicon Pin Top Mount, 17mm Front Height, With Curves
Post by: Flybeck on Thu, 01 December 2022, 07:34:28
Sound test of v1?
Title: Re: [IC] Orbit 65% - Silicon Pin Top Mount, 17mm Front Height, With Curves
Post by: Ra66it_AU on Thu, 01 December 2022, 07:48:03
I have recorded it, having an issue with uploading atm, will post it here soon!
Title: Re: [IC] Orbit 65% - Curved, Silicon Pin Top Mount, 17mm Front Height
Post by: LMarci on Thu, 01 December 2022, 08:06:12
Filled the IC form, looks promising so far. Please consider a non-flex cut alu plate and no foam in the kit.
Title: Re: [IC] Orbit 65% - Curved, Silicon Pin Top Mount, 17mm Front Height
Post by: Ra66it_AU on Thu, 01 December 2022, 08:17:23
That's exactly my personal preference/ultimate goal for this board haha! Definitely something to consider.
Title: Re: [IC] Orbit 65% - Curved, Silicon Pin Top Mount, 17mm Front Height
Post by: KeyBros_ on Thu, 01 December 2022, 09:14:37
I love the desing, but I want it 60% :(
Title: Re: [IC] Orbit 65% - Curved, Silicon Pin Top Mount, 17mm Front Height
Post by: irithyll on Thu, 01 December 2022, 12:09:15
This looks amazing. Most definitely going to get this if it's priced nicely.
Great job on the design and protos, and I hope to see progress soon!
GLWIC
Title: Re: [IC] Orbit 65% - Curved, Silicon Pin Top Mount, 17mm Front Height
Post by: AnonyMoose_ on Thu, 01 December 2022, 14:00:26
dang that side profile is so nice. glwic
Title: Re: [IC] Orbit 65% - Curved, Silicon Pin Top Mount, 17mm Front Height
Post by: PlayBox on Thu, 01 December 2022, 15:36:51
finally a tadpole 65% im not gonna expect it anywhere close to 200$ though. glwic
Title: Re: [IC] Orbit 65% - Curved, Silicon Pin Top Mount, 17mm Front Height
Post by: The0rigina1 on Thu, 01 December 2022, 15:49:40
Hmm, an interesting choice for a heavily kei-inspired bottom. It is known in the community that kei as a keyboard doesn't sound the best.
A full brass bottom would probably induce unwanted pinging. GLWIC
Title: Re: [IC] Orbit 65% - Curved, Silicon Pin Top Mount, 17mm Front Height
Post by: Zurg Eon on Thu, 01 December 2022, 17:19:12
Engraving gives me Vertex Angle vibes. Proof:

(https://i.imgur.com/TeqhWxy.jpg)

The board looks well executed. GLWIC!
Title: Re: [IC] Orbit 65% - Curved, Silicon Pin Top Mount, 17mm Front Height
Post by: TjarleN on Thu, 01 December 2022, 23:35:13
I love how it looks, personally not looking for any 65% otherwise this one would be on the top of my list.
Side profile is very hot, I am a sucker for hhkbs.
Title: Re: [IC] Orbit 65% - Curved, Silicon Pin Top Mount, 17mm Front Height
Post by: VXQN on Fri, 02 December 2022, 03:59:32
Board looks great! Would be interested to know what your thoughts about additional colours are.

Is there a reason for splitting the brass weight into four pieces? Does it make a difference?
Title: Re: [IC] Orbit 65% - Curved, Silicon Pin Top Mount, 17mm Front Height
Post by: Akele on Fri, 02 December 2022, 19:15:50
Looks great. I'll be keeping an eye on this one. GLWIC.
Title: Re: [IC] Orbit 65% - Curved, Silicon Pin Top Mount, 17mm Front Height
Post by: aicyborg on Fri, 02 December 2022, 23:23:56
I like a lot about this. The curve's really appealing.

Will you be offering hotswap ISO as an option? I am definitely in if so.

Regarding foam, if it doesn't raise the cost by much please consider including it - I know "foam-filled" is becoming something of a negative thing in the eyes of the community but for those of us that like it (hello) just not including it kinda blows actually.
Title: Re: [IC]Orbit 65% - Curved, Silicon Pin Top Mount, 17mm Front Height
Post by: Ra66it_AU on Sat, 03 December 2022, 03:12:09
This looks amazing. Most definitely going to get this if it's priced nicely.
Great job on the design and protos, and I hope to see progress soon!
GLWIC

dang that side profile is so nice. glwic

finally a tadpole 65% im not gonna expect it anywhere close to 200$ though. glwic

Thanks for the kind words!
Title: Re: [IC]Orbit 65% - Curved, Silicon Pin Top Mount, 17mm Front Height
Post by: Ra66it_AU on Sat, 03 December 2022, 03:14:08
Looks great. I'll be keeping an eye on this one. GLWIC.

I love how it looks, personally not looking for any 65% otherwise this one would be on the top of my list.
Side profile is very hot, I am a sucker for hhkbs.

Glad you guys like it, appreciated! I am a huge hhkb fan as well.
Title: Re: [IC] Orbit 65% - Curved, Silicon Pin Top Mount, 17mm Front Height
Post by: Ra66it_AU on Sat, 03 December 2022, 03:21:40
I like a lot about this. The curve's really appealing.

Will you be offering hotswap ISO as an option? I am definitely in if so.

Regarding foam, if it doesn't raise the cost by much please consider including it - I know "foam-filled" is becoming something of a negative thing in the eyes of the community but for those of us that like it (hello) just not including it kinda blows actually.

At this stage, I am sure the ISO is an option for solder pcb. I am totally down for ISO hotswap but not quite sure how to execute it, do you know if any board has done this before? can be a good learning opportunity for me.

From what I saw on the IC foam rn, half of the people are into no foam, which is quite interesting. I am thinking separate the foam from the kit and making it an add-on option. In that way, 'no foam' people don't have to pay for the cost of foam, and foam lovers still have the option.
Title: Re: [IC] Orbit 65% - Curved, Silicon Pin Top Mount, 17mm Front Height
Post by: Ra66it_AU on Sat, 03 December 2022, 03:27:56
Board looks great! Would be interested to know what your thoughts about additional colours are.

Is there a reason for splitting the brass weight into four pieces? Does it make a difference?

Thanks for your interest! The weight splitting is more of an aesthetic design choice. Acusticlluy I don't think it will make a huge difference compared to a whole piece.
Title: Re: [IC] Orbit 65% - Curved, Silicon Pin Top Mount, 17mm Front Height
Post by: Ra66it_AU on Sat, 03 December 2022, 03:40:15
Hmm, an interesting choice for a heavily kei-inspired bottom. It is known in the community that kei as a keyboard doesn't sound the best.
A full brass bottom would probably induce unwanted pinging. GLWIC

Thanks for your input!
I had the same doubt when I designed this. After testing I don't think brass bottom is the main reason for pinging noise. From my experience, the pinging noise is mainly from uneven fitting between metal cases, I tried this mod from 3ildcat's video for my Kei and most of the pinging disappeared.
Link: https://youtube.com/shorts/VSMdbEgdvQ4?feature=share (https://youtube.com/shorts/VSMdbEgdvQ4?feature=share)
Title: Re: [IC] Orbit 65% - Curved, Silicon Pin Top Mount, 17mm Front Height
Post by: aicyborg on Sun, 04 December 2022, 23:09:22
I am totally down for ISO hotswap but not quite sure how to execute it, do you know if any board has done this before? can be a good learning opportunity for me.

Zoom65 and Ikki68 Aurora are the best examples I can think of, they managed to squeeze both ANSI and ISO on the same PCB. Getting the enter region right is a bit tricky (because there's another key added under the ISO enter) but the left shift is straightforward. If you can do it, it'd be really appreciated.
Title: Re: [IC] Orbit 65% - Curved, Silicon Pin Top Mount, 17mm Front Height
Post by: kolxy on Mon, 05 December 2022, 14:55:37
An orbit logo design on the back would probably look better than simply a word. Other than that, I really like the keyboard
Title: Re: [IC] Orbit 65% - Curved, Silicon Pin Top Mount, 17mm Front Height
Post by: Plurrkeebs on Mon, 05 December 2022, 19:14:01
That internal design on the bottom brass weight goes hella hard.  :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:
Title: Re: [IC] Orbit 65% - Curved, Silicon Pin Top Mount, 17mm Front Height
Post by: Ra66it_AU on Wed, 07 December 2022, 00:37:32
I am totally down for ISO hotswap but not quite sure how to execute it, do you know if any board has done this before? can be a good learning opportunity for me.

Zoom65 and Ikki68 Aurora are the best examples I can think of, they managed to squeeze both ANSI and ISO on the same PCB. Getting the enter region right is a bit tricky (because there's another key added under the ISO enter) but the left shift is straightforward. If you can do it, it'd be really appreciated.

Thanks! I will look into it. :thumb:
Title: Re: [IC] Orbit 65% - Curved, Silicon Pin Top Mount, 17mm Front Height
Post by: superjackie on Wed, 07 December 2022, 02:50:03
wkl plz
Title: Re: [IC] Orbit 65% - Curved, Silicon Pin Top Mount, 17mm Front Height
Post by: ExpensiveShinyRectangle on Wed, 07 December 2022, 13:24:14
Wow, this is such an interesting curved design and i really like the seamless sides! glwic!
Title: Re: [IC] Orbit 65% - Curved, Silicon Pin Top Mount, 17mm Front Height
Post by: Ra66it_AU on Fri, 09 December 2022, 01:05:18
An orbit logo design on the back would probably look better than simply a word. Other than that, I really like the keyboard

Thanks for your support!  ;D
Title: Re: [IC] Orbit 65% - Curved, Silicon Pin Top Mount, 17mm Front Height
Post by: Mike2046 on Fri, 09 December 2022, 17:24:47
Looks promising. Who's the PCB designer, and which MCU does the PCB have? Atmega or ARM?
Title: Re: [IC] Orbit 65% - Curved, Silicon Pin Top Mount, 17mm Front Height
Post by: Ra66it_AU on Sat, 10 December 2022, 17:48:54
Looks promising. Who's the PCB designer, and which MCU does the PCB have? Atmega or ARM?

The PCB is an in-house design with 32u4 chip
Title: Re: [IC] Orbit 65% - Curved, Silicon Pin Top Mount, 17mm Front Height
Post by: origintypes on Tue, 13 December 2022, 01:05:01
I like how the keyboard looks, but unfortunately not a fan of tadpole mounting. GLWIC :)
Title: Re: [IC] Orbit 65% - Curved, Silicon Pin Top Mount, 17mm Front Height
Post by: goju2506 on Wed, 14 December 2022, 00:59:15
I've never been this excited for a 65%. Hoping it will be sub 400, also shallow engraving of the circular pattern on the back of the weight instead of inside would be noice (brass weight)
Title: Re: [IC] Orbit 65% - Curved, Silicon Pin Top Mount, 17mm Front Height
Post by: swva on Fri, 16 December 2022, 08:46:44
This project is looking really good!  Of all the new keyboards I've seen lately this is the one I'm most looking forward to.
Title: Re: [IC] Orbit 65% - Curved, Silicon Pin Top Mount, 17mm Front Height
Post by: saab on Fri, 16 December 2022, 11:27:50
I really dig the curved HG side. GLWIC <3
Title: Re: [IC] Orbit 65% - Curved, Silicon Pin Top Mount, 17mm Front Height
Post by: Ra66it_AU on Mon, 19 December 2022, 20:48:07
I just refreshed the Discord link again, come chat :)

https://discord.gg/KZ7axT7zKg (https://discord.gg/KZ7axT7zKg)
Title: Re: [IC] Orbit 65% - Curved, Silicon Pin Top Mount, 17mm Front Height
Post by: Ra66it_AU on Wed, 21 December 2022, 21:00:12
Just curious if anyone keen for a copper bottom design?


Title: Re: [IC] Orbit 65% - Curved, Silicon Pin Top Mount, 17mm Front Height
Post by: Akele on Thu, 22 December 2022, 04:51:05
Just curious if anyone keen for a copper bottom design?

Absolutely. Given the choice I'd go for copper over brass.
Title: Re: [IC] Orbit 65% - Curved, Silicon Pin Top Mount, 17mm Front Height
Post by: vonk on Thu, 22 December 2022, 11:17:13
Just curious if anyone keen for a copper bottom design?

$$$$$$$$$$$$
Title: Re: [IC] Orbit 65% - Curved, Silicon Pin Top Mount, 17mm Front Height
Post by: DaaDaa on Thu, 22 December 2022, 18:32:29
a burgundy top would be nice
Title: Re: [IC] Orbit 65% - Curved, Silicon Pin Top Mount, 17mm Front Height
Post by: Ra66it_AU on Sun, 25 December 2022, 00:11:03
To anyone who is reading this, Marry Christmas! :)
Title: Re: [IC] Orbit 65% - Curved, Silicon Pin Top Mount, 17mm Front Height
Post by: Slimey on Sun, 25 December 2022, 09:02:00
Wondering if you would consider the wave pattern to be on the bottom so its visible instead?
Title: Re: [IC] Orbit 65% - Curved, Silicon Pin Top Mount, 17mm Front Height
Post by: Ra66it_AU on Thu, 29 December 2022, 07:44:19
I will keep it inside for a minimalistic look.
Title: Re: [IC] Orbit 65% - Curved, Silicon Pin Top Mount, 17mm Front Height
Post by: Ra66it_AU on Wed, 04 January 2023, 17:28:52
An interesting find from the IC result, three plates are equally popular according to the votes lol.


(https://i.imgur.com/rNjZev2.png)
Title: Re: [IC] Orbit 65% - Curved, Silicon Pin Top Mount, 17mm Front Height
Post by: colinlin on Sun, 08 January 2023, 23:49:37
beautiful keyboard, hope to get it
Title: Re: [IC] Orbit 65% - Curved, Silicon Pin Top Mount, 17mm Front Height
Post by: Ra66it_AU on Fri, 13 January 2023, 01:59:30
beautiful keyboard, hope to get it
Thank you! Proto v2 has been shipping out to me, will update here soon!
Title: Re: [IC] Orbit 65% - Curved, Silicon Pin Top Mount, 17mm Front Height
Post by: OhNyne on Sun, 15 January 2023, 12:53:19
I like a lot about this. The curve's really appealing.

Will you be offering hotswap ISO as an option? I am definitely in if so.

Regarding foam, if it doesn't raise the cost by much please consider including it - I know "foam-filled" is becoming something of a negative thing in the eyes of the community but for those of us that like it (hello) just not including it kinda blows actually.

Iso hotswap is pretty difficult to execute, but if it is done correctly i think it would pay off, not many boards have iso hotswap so it would make the board even more unique, You might want to try around with some pcb designers who have done iso hotswap before
At this stage, I am sure the ISO is an option for solder pcb. I am totally down for ISO hotswap but not quite sure how to execute it, do you know if any board has done this before? can be a good learning opportunity for me.

From what I saw on the IC foam rn, half of the people are into no foam, which is quite interesting. I am thinking separate the foam from the kit and making it an add-on option. In that way, 'no foam' people don't have to pay for the cost of foam, and foam lovers still have the option.
Title: Re: [IC] Orbit 65% - Curved, Silicon Pin Top Mount, 17mm Front Height
Post by: OhNyne on Sun, 15 January 2023, 13:00:24
An interesting find from the IC result, three plates are equally popular according to the votes lol.


Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/rNjZev2.png)



Aluminum would be a great idea, so would fr4 and pc, i feel pom is too close to pc to pom for it to be worth it but its just me
Title: Re: [IC] Orbit 65% - Curved, Silicon Pin Top Mount, 17mm Front Height
Post by: Ra66it_AU on Sun, 22 January 2023, 04:52:18
V2 has arrived!! Let me know if you like this all-raw finish too!
Will provide more pics and typing tests soon.
(https://i.imgur.com/0cQmugT.png)
Title: Re: [IC] Orbit 65% - Curved, Silicon Pin Top Mount, 17mm Front Height, V2 Landing
Post by: daviddgm on Mon, 23 January 2023, 08:50:47
Nice project.

Let me ask... About rubber feet, did you design and Will make them or Will you get from another maker like Geonworks?
Title: Re: [IC] Orbit 65% - Curved, Silicon Pin Top Mount, 17mm Front Height, V2 Landing
Post by: Ra66it_AU on Wed, 25 January 2023, 21:17:36
I designed and made them. I don't think Geon produces rubber feet for 65%.
Title: Re: [IC] Orbit 65% - V2 UPDATES! Curved, Silicon Pin Top Mount, 17mm Front Height.
Post by: Ra66it_AU on Mon, 06 February 2023, 07:03:30
Hey everyone, just made some updates on my Proto V2, will upload the new typing test soon.
Title: Re: [IC] Orbit 65% - Curved, Silicon Pin Top Mount, 17mm Front Height, V2 SoundTest!
Post by: Ra66it_AU on Tue, 14 February 2023, 04:44:01
Hey all, I just uploaded the V2 typing sound. Happy Valentine's Day!
Title: Re: [IC] Orbit 65% - Curved, Silicon Pin Top Mount, 17mm Front Height, V2 SoundTest!
Post by: PlayBox on Wed, 15 February 2023, 15:05:33
i think its in my budget now but knowing shipping and taxes these are gonna kill me so ill stick to frog tkl
Title: Re: [IC] Orbit 65% - Curved, Silicon Pin Top Mount, 17mm Front Height, V2 SoundTest!
Post by: audax989 on Wed, 15 February 2023, 20:05:29
any idea on the pricepoint?
Title: Re: [IC] Orbit 65% - Curved, Silicon Pin Top Mount, 17mm Front Height, V2 SoundTest!
Post by: PlayBox on Thu, 16 February 2023, 01:18:45
any idea on the pricepoint?
its there 350$ for alu version 400$ for brass version
Title: Re: [IC] Orbit 65% - Curved, Silicon Pin Top Mount, 17mm Front Height, V2 SoundTest!
Post by: Ra66it_AU on Wed, 22 February 2023, 01:36:07
Hi all,

After hearing some feedback, I have changed the placement of the logo at the back.
(https://i.imgur.com/ZgglKz1.png)
Title: Re: [IC] Orbit 65% - Curved, Silicon Pin Top Mount, 17mm Front Height, V2 SoundTest!
Post by: suishibe on Sun, 26 February 2023, 03:54:29
beautiful
Title: Re: [IC] Orbit 65% - Curved, Silicon Pin Top Mount, 17mm Front Height, V2 SoundTest!
Post by: Ra66it_AU on Sat, 11 March 2023, 05:56:12
Thanks! :)
Title: Re: [IC] Orbit 65% - Curved, Silicon Pin Top Mount, 17mm Front Height, V2 SoundTest!
Post by: ReplicaJG on Sun, 12 March 2023, 06:38:39
my fav board yet  :thumb:
Title: Re: [IC] Orbit 65% - Curved, Silicon Pin Top Mount, 17mm Front Height, V2 SoundTest!
Post by: Ra66it_AU on Sat, 25 March 2023, 08:47:36
tyty Jas!
Title: Re: [IC] Orbit 65% - Curved, Silicon Pin Top Mount, 17mm Front Height
Post by: Surefoot on Sat, 25 March 2023, 14:29:17
I had the same doubt when I designed this. After testing I don't think brass bottom is the main reason for pinging noise. From my experience, the pinging noise is mainly from uneven fitting between metal cases, I tried this mod from 3ildcat's video for my Kei and most of the pinging disappeared.
Link: https://youtube.com/shorts/VSMdbEgdvQ4?feature=share (https://youtube.com/shorts/VSMdbEgdvQ4?feature=share)
I wonder when custom keyboard designers will include that trick in their case designs - when I first thought of adding gaskets to a case that was the idea, not for the plate but for the case. It will indeed produce a much more solid sound.
Title: Re: [IC] Orbit 65% - Curved, Silicon Pin Top Mount, 17mm Front Height, V2 SoundTest!
Post by: Stanced on Sat, 25 March 2023, 18:15:03
any time line on groupbuy?
Title: Re: [IC] Orbit 65% - Curved, Silicon Pin Top Mount, 17mm Front Height, V2 SoundTest!
Post by: WoobEC on Tue, 28 March 2023, 05:32:14
This is great
Title: Re: [IC] Orbit 65% - Curved, Silicon Pin Top Mount, 17mm Front Height, V2 SoundTest!
Post by: diyachronic on Thu, 30 March 2023, 13:17:59
Project looks great! How much does each version of the keyboard weigh?
Title: Re: [IC] Orbit 65% - Curved, Silicon Pin Top Mount, 17mm Front Height, V2 SoundTest!
Post by: OhNyne on Thu, 30 March 2023, 15:20:55
Would a hotswap pcb be offered?
Title: Re: [IC] Orbit 65% - Curved, Silicon Pin Top Mount, 17mm Front Height, V2 SoundTest!
Post by: involuntarysoul on Thu, 30 March 2023, 18:52:36
please have raw alu version, would really make this board stand out

(https://i.imgur.com/AC1zTo9.jpg)
Title: Re: [IC] Orbit 65% - Curved, Silicon Pin Top Mount, 17mm Front Height
Post by: Ra66it_AU on Mon, 03 April 2023, 19:09:05
I had the same doubt when I designed this. After testing I don't think brass bottom is the main reason for pinging noise. From my experience, the pinging noise is mainly from uneven fitting between metal cases, I tried this mod from 3ildcat's video for my Kei and most of the pinging disappeared.
Link: https://youtube.com/shorts/VSMdbEgdvQ4?feature=share (https://youtube.com/shorts/VSMdbEgdvQ4?feature=share)
I wonder when custom keyboard designers will include that trick in their case designs - when I first thought of adding gaskets to a case that was the idea, not for the plate but for the case. It will indeed produce a much more solid sound.

With the addition of several extra screws in V2, the break-force mod has become unnecessary. However, it is evident that this mod could greatly enhance the sound of cases that lack sufficient screws connecting the top and bottom cases.
Title: Re: [IC] Orbit 65% - Curved, Silicon Pin Top Mount, 17mm Front Height, V2 SoundTest!
Post by: Stanced on Tue, 04 April 2023, 09:54:42
Do you have a timeline when the GB might be?

Title: Re: [IC] Orbit 65% - Curved, Silicon Pin Top Mount, 17mm Front Height, V2 SoundTest!
Post by: OhNyne on Thu, 06 April 2023, 14:11:35
Maybe on the back of the case where it says " Machina" it could be kinda like the vegas weight  or think6.5 v3 where its color varies from the case itself. Just a thought though.
Title: Re: [IC] Orbit 65% - Curved, Silicon Top Mount, 17mm Front Height, Updated Colors
Post by: Ra66it_AU on Sat, 08 April 2023, 06:46:23
Hello hello, I updated some rendering here: https://imgur.com/a/FFaE7GB (https://imgur.com/a/FFaE7GB)
Title: Re: [IC] Orbit 65% - Curved, Silicon Top Mount, 17mm Front Height, Updated Colors
Post by: diyachronic on Wed, 12 April 2023, 11:56:14
That copper bottom is stunning. Do you have an idea of how much the copper bottom would affect price compared to the brass bottom?
Title: Re: [IC] Orbit 65% - Curved, Silicon Top Mount, 17mm Front Height, Updated Colors
Post by: Ra66it_AU on Fri, 14 April 2023, 22:55:26
Still under discussion, but will announce GB details soon. :thumb:
Title: Re: [IC] Orbit 65% - Curved, Silicon Top Mount, 17mm Front Height, Updated Colors
Post by: involuntarysoul on Sat, 15 April 2023, 13:19:44
for the alu bottom, 4 separate weight seems to be alot of extra machining for not much gain, would it be more cost effective to have a single large weight?
Title: Re: [IC] Orbit 65% - Curved, Silicon Top Mount, 17mm Front Height, Updated Colors
Post by: hzh0525 on Tue, 18 April 2023, 13:56:53
I will definitely buy a copper/brass bottom one!
Title: Re: [IC] Orbit 65% - Curved, Silicon Top Mount, 17mm Front Height, Updated Colors
Post by: Ra66it_AU on Sat, 22 April 2023, 02:58:34
for the alu bottom, 4 separate weight seems to be alot of extra machining for not much gain, would it be more cost effective to have a single large weight?

Based on my experience, using four individual weights was more effective in eliminating internal noise compared to using a single weight. Additionally, arranging the four weights in a way that forms a star shape at the center aligns with the orbital theme being considered. Overall, I believe it is worth the extra cost.
Title: Re: [IC] Orbit 65% - Curved, Silicon Top Mount, 17mm Front Height, Updated Colors
Post by: Wise Donkey on Sun, 30 April 2023, 02:02:19
It's ashame the concentric circles are on the inside instead of on the outside. It's a beautiful form.
Title: Re: [IC] Orbit 65% - Curved,Silicon Top Mount,17mm Front Height. Update on GB in May
Post by: aicyborg on Mon, 01 May 2023, 19:36:17
Kinda blows you couldn't get a UK/EU vendor for this, but I guess it's whatever.
Title: Re: [IC] Orbit 65% - Curved,Silicon Top Mount,17mm Front Height. Update on GB in May
Post by: rMxGTR on Wed, 03 May 2023, 16:07:10
Is there a way to get raw top with copper bottom?
Title: Re: [IC] Orbit 65% - Curved,Silicon Top Mount,17mm Front Height. Update on GB in May
Post by: Akele on Fri, 05 May 2023, 01:07:26
Is there a way to get raw top with copper bottom?

Ra66it_AU is running a poll on Discord asking if people have an interest a raw alu top + copper/brass bottom config. May be worth voting in that if you haven't done so. It's certainly the config I'd like to buy.
Title: Re: [IC] Orbit 65% - Curved,Silicon Top Mount,17mm Front Height. Update on GB in May
Post by: Ra66it_AU on Wed, 10 May 2023, 07:38:18


Orbit
Designed by Machina
UPDATE 30-04-23
Prices, color options, vendors, and more! Going in to GB soon



Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/hn8Kr0Q.png)

Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/Y8tKDnN.png)

Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/c0bH2Jr.png)

Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/0Hirchm.jpg)

Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/T4xVv1I.jpg)

Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/g2SSDcO.jpg)

Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/vJpOkRU.jpg)





Hello there, I am Ra66it from Australia. Introducing my first keyboard project Orbit by Machina, a 65% silicon pin mounting style keyboard.

I have been wanting a 65% keyboard ever since I tried the tadpole mounting on Frog TKL. Started last year as a personal project, I received my first prototype this October.


The main idea of the design is to keep the keyboard as slim as possible. Internally, trying to make a clean-sounding keyboard with the least amount of foam.

The external curves and internal weight pattern give me an astronomy vibe, I hope this keyboard is also in your orbit :)
The look of this keyboard is influenced by the HHKB series (HG variant and Pro2).



IC FORM: https://forms.gle/pCphkNEkyidLt7gPA (https://forms.gle/pCphkNEkyidLt7gPA)

DISCORD LINK: https://discord.gg/KZ7axT7zKg (https://discord.gg/KZ7axT7zKg)

INSTAGRAM LINK: https://www.instagram.com/machina.syd/ (https://www.instagram.com/machina.syd/)





0. CONTENTS

1.DETAILS
2.VENDOR
3.PRICE & SALES DETAILS
4MEDIA
5.COLOR RENDER
6.LAYOUT
7.PHOTO
8.DESIGN CHANGELOG
9.PROJECT STATUS
10.TYPING TEST





1.DETAILS

- Typing angle 7.0°
- Front height: 17mm
- Mounting style: Silicon pin/ Tadpole ( 3 hardness options)
- Screwless exterior design (detachable silicon feet hiding all the screws at the bottom)
- PCB: Inhouse design with USB-C daughterboard - configurable with QMK/VIA, hotswap, and solder option available.
- Will come with a matching carrying case
- Weight:  1.5kg/3.3 lbs built for Aluminium Version
               2.5kg/5.5 lbs built for Brass/Copper Version
- Materials:
     - Aluminium Top Case
     - Two bottom case designs:
     - Full PVD Aluminium Bottom Case with 4 internal brass weights
     - Full Brass Bottom Case with clear coat finish
     - Anodized/ E-coated Aluminium Bottom Case (NEW ADDED as IC form suggests)
     - Color Renders: https://imgur.com/a/FFaE7GB

   




2.VENDOR

AU: www.najakeys.com (http://www.najakeys.com)
South Korea: Geonworks https://geon.works/ (https://geon.works/)
Rest of the world: www.machina.mx (http://www.machina.mx)






3.PRICE & SALES DETAILS

Sale Format: GB (May 2023)
Color Renders: https://imgur.com/a/FFaE7GB
Price
  • Anodized Top Case + Anodized Bottom Case                                $349
  • Anodized Top Case + Aluminium PVD Bottom Case                       $389
  • Anodized Top Case + Full Brass Bottom Case (clear E-coated)       $399
  • Anodized Top Case + Full Copper Bottom Case (clear E-coated)     $439
  • All Raw Aluminium Top & Bottom Cases (clear E-coated)               $369
  • Hotswap                                                                                   +$10
  • E-coat                                                                                      +$20
* Prices in USD
** By default, comes with a full aluminium plate, 70A hardness silicon pins, 1.6mm PCB, and no flex cut on either PCB or plate.

IC form here: https://forms.gle/pCphkNEkyidLt7gPA (https://forms.gle/pCphkNEkyidLt7gPA)
Added options for raw finish and copper in IC form





4.MEDIA
Lightning Keyboards Build VOD: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbM91RubDVk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbM91RubDVk)
Alexotos
DBOkeys
Avi
LightningKeyboards
Keybored
NearLucid
Geon
Makerchun
* will update here once videoes are available

Show Image
(https://imgur.com/a/VRCmW8B.jpg)




5.COLOR RENDER
More Color Renders: https://imgur.com/a/FFaE7GB
Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/oJZkXy2.jpg)
Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/wgWbXXf.jpg)

Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/6Md9os5.jpg)
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(https://i.imgur.com/oh6fmhe.jpg)

Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/M8VD5f1.jpg)
Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/1KoGtg0.jpg)





6.LAYOUT

Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/92tTz5d.jpg)





7.PHOTO
V1 Prototype photos
Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/iQV5Sqi.jpg)

Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/Z7paENu.jpg)

Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/myTVzLf.jpg)

Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/807bQk0.jpg)

Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/3CbYCDu.jpg)

Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/9xS8N6C.jpg)

Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/ISzykUp.jpg)

Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/JJzyeED.jpg)

Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/tCTQZKf.jpg)




V2 PHOTO
UPDATE 06-02-23
V2 Prototype photos
Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/jFgxusl.jpg)

Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/uVwSAIj.jpg)

Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/gVZjCFE.jpg)

Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/bNMKMXI.jpg)

Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/4vpawZC.jpg)

Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/RT04K2c.jpg)

Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/K0nPblG.jpg)

Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/97nNzF0.jpg)

Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/0QfRpYE.jpg)




8.DESIGN CHANGELOG
V1 Prototype
- 1.2mm PCB with flex cut
- 4 screws between the top and bottom case
- 4 separate rubber feet

V2 Prototype
- 1.6mm PCB with no flex cut
- 8 screws between the top and bottom case
- Changed to 2 long rubber feet instead of 4
- Testing Brass Patina
- Quality of life changes to the PCB
- Silicon pin positions redesigned

V2.5 Prototype
- Can confirm 1.6mm PCB without flex cut is better.
- Keeping 8 screws between the top and bottom case.
- Keeping the bezels as slim as V1.
- Redo long rubber feet molding. (failed last time)
- Testing Brass Patina (ongoing process)
- Quality of life changes to the PCB (ongoing process)

V2 Prototype Exploded View
Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/STjTgHU.png)





9.PROJECT STATUS [GOING INTO GB SOON]


V1 Log
More
After typing with V1 proto for a month, overall I am happy with the look and typing feel, the typing experience is firm but not stiff, and the 50A silicon pins allow some bounciness in the board. Personally, I always build my keyboards with plate foam, it reduces those tiny noises and still keeps the characteristics of the board. The sound is quite clean without case foam, more on the clacky side. I bearly noticed any hollowness, but it is a bit loud for my liking.

For the V2 proto, the goal is to keep the sound profile more isolated. I added more screws between the two cases and lengthen the rubber feet, hopefully, it can reduce resonance between the metal pieces, and the thickness of the top case has been increased by 1mm to make the sound more isolated.

Red arrows indicate the newly added screw holes, the placement won't affect how the space bar sound.

Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/ULq2afB.jpg)

One thing I am currently testing is the patina on the brass bottom, I have included the photo in the IC form, please feel free to check it out and leave some feedback. If you are a patina artist who enjoys my design, please please reach out to me.


V2 Log
More
V2! Lots of good news, all the changes made seem promising.
In this round, all materials have raw finishes and I really enjoy the colours, considering adding that as a GB option.
You may notice that the V2 bezels are slightly thicker than V1, but I prefer V1 bezels more after putting them side by side, will change that back next round.
see the comparison here:
Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/BDZf0Q2.jpg)


Overall the design is final now, the next round (Proto V2.5) will be the final round, mainly for review units.
I will lock in all the case colours, materials, and finishes after the next round. Please fill in the IC form if you want to share your opinion.

 



V2.5 Log

UPDATE 30-04-23
After hearing some feedback, I have changed the placement of the logo at the bottom.
Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/ZgglKz1.png)


Currently all the review units have been sent out, and more content will be released next month, meanwhile, collecting community feedback before we go GB in May. 







10.TYPING TEST

ProtoV1 Plate foam only


I overlubed my left shift lol

ProtoV2 Sound Test [NO FOAM]

Lightning Keyboards Build VOD:





Thank you all for reading till the end!



Vincent - Special thanks for the amazing photos!
https://www.youtube.com/@vincentchen1985 (https://www.youtube.com/@vincentchen1985)

Eureka Foundry - Much much love for the stunning work from you guys! amazed by the quality of the prototypes.
The feedback on my design really helped me in the early stage.
https://www.eurekafoundry.com/ (https://www.eurekafoundry.com/)

ANZKEEB - Shoutout to my keeb mates, I won't be able to make this without your guys!
Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/4A6Y4kY.jpg)


[/list]
Title: Re: [IC] Orbit 65% - Curved,Silicon Top Mount,17mm Front Height. Update on GB in May
Post by: Ra66it_AU on Mon, 15 May 2023, 22:49:26
Is there a way to get raw top with copper bottom?
Yes!
Title: Re: [IC] Orbit 65% - Curved,Silicon Top Mount,17mm Front Height. 28th May GB OPEN
Post by: Ra66it_AU on Mon, 22 May 2023, 05:50:16
The date for the GB is set on 28th May.
Let's goooooo!
Title: Re: [IC] Orbit 65% - Curved,Silicon Top Mount,17mm Front Height. Update on GB in May
Post by: fzlo on Mon, 22 May 2023, 10:56:21
Is there a way to get raw top with copper bottom?
Yes!

nice! best combo! also red and copper will be a banger
Title: Re: [IC] Orbit 65% - Curved,Silicon Top Mount,17mm Front Height. 28th May GB OPEN
Post by: aicyborg on Mon, 22 May 2023, 18:06:21
The date for the GB is set on 28th May.
Let's goooooo!

Any chance of more regional vendors? One for the UK would be really appreciated. I've been trying to get people here locally to fill out your IC form doing that, seems to have been ignored...
Title: Re: [IC] Orbit 65% - Curved,Silicon Top Mount,17mm Front Height. 28th May GB OPEN
Post by: The Real Omar on Sat, 27 May 2023, 15:19:46
Please offer that Anodize brown as a top color!
Title: Re: [IC] Orbit 65% - Curved,Silicon Top Mount,17mm Front Height. 28th May GB OPEN
Post by: yiuoterw on Sat, 27 May 2023, 16:14:33
Woah, the machining on the internal of the weight looks awesome! Reminds me of something making ripples in water.
Title: Re: [IC] Orbit 65% - Curved,Silicon Top Mount,17mm Front Height. 28th May GB OPEN
Post by: vtachkov on Sat, 27 May 2023, 16:35:26
Probably too late at this point but any chance of offering brass/copper plates?
Title: Re: [IC] Orbit 65% - Curved,Silicon Top Mount,17mm Front Height. 28th May GB OPEN
Post by: malignant narcissism on Mon, 29 May 2023, 17:15:29
Ordered charcoal with a copper bottom. I'm pretty hype on this board so hope it doesn't let me down!
Title: Re: [IC] Orbit 65% - Curved,Silicon Top Mount,17mm Front Height. GB OPEN NOW
Post by: Ra66it_AU on Wed, 31 May 2023, 01:11:52
GB opens!
Title: Re: [IC] Orbit 65% - Curved,Silicon Top Mount,17mm Front Height. GB OPEN NOW
Post by: garrdub on Thu, 01 June 2023, 18:02:14
I really really like this. Might go for the raw copper with the silver top. Great price for full copper and brass booty as well.

Seems like the GB is going well so far, are you close to reaching the soft limit yet?
Title: Re: [IC] Orbit 65% - Curved,Silicon Top Mount,17mm Front Height. GB OPEN NOW
Post by: Ra66it_AU on Mon, 05 June 2023, 10:54:27
2 weeks to go!
Title: Re: [IC] Orbit 65% - Curved,Silicon Top Mount,17mm Front Height. GB OPEN NOW
Post by: synthetics on Tue, 06 June 2023, 13:43:52
Just learned about this board a few days ago, I'm late to the GH thread. Cool design, I like a lot of the little details here, glwgb!
Title: Re: [IC] Orbit 65% - Curved,Silicon Top Mount,17mm Front Height. GB OPEN NOW
Post by: Ra66it_AU on Sat, 10 June 2023, 10:11:13
Updated some video links  ;)
Title: Re: [IC] Orbit 65% - Curved,Silicon Top Mount,17mm Front Height. GB OPEN NOW
Post by: Groom on Fri, 16 June 2023, 14:52:18
I love the curve in side view! and the feeling like hhkb og.
Title: Re: [IC] Orbit 65% - Curved,Silicon Top Mount,17mm Front Height. GB OPEN NOW
Post by: sketch3v on Fri, 16 June 2023, 19:32:07
would be cool to see the same design style on the visible part of the keyboard. I also love these cute gasket feet  ;D