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Author Topic: Model M "Spacesaver" spring transplant  (Read 10519 times)

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Offline jayray999

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Model M "Spacesaver" spring transplant
« on: Sat, 02 May 2009, 12:49:23 »
Ok. Here's a question for those who know. I have a Model M mini a.k.a Spacesaver but I much prefer the keys on my two full sized NIB Model Ms.

1. Could I just take out the buckling springs from one of the full sized keyboards  and transplant them one at a time into the Spacesaver?

2. Is this hard to do?

3. Will I have to open the back?

4. Will the modded Spacesaver feel like the donor Model M?

5. Unrelated question: Can a full sized Model M's controller be transplanted into the Spacesaver if the latter's controller dies in the future?
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"In Italy for thirty years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder, bloodshed and they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly love, five hundred years of democracy and peace, and what did they produce? The cuckoo clock."
Harry Lime (Orson Welles) :: The Third Man (1949)

Offline keyb_gr

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Model M "Spacesaver" spring transplant
« Reply #1 on: Sat, 02 May 2009, 14:17:57 »
1. According to sandy55, M spring/hammer assemblies are interchangeable.

2. + 3. You'll have to go as far as necessary for a repair, so it's not entirely trivial. Environment should be as clean as possible when handling membranes.

4. One would hope so. Possibly the issue can already be fixed by performing the stud replacement.

5. There were a number of board revisions for the full-sized M alone, not all of which are interchangeable, so I guess you'd have to have a donor M of the correct vintage at the very least. However, there's not terribly much to break on there. Maybe you'd have to swap the two electrolytics one of those days, but that's about it.
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This message was probably typed on a vintage G80-3000 with blues. Double-shots, baby. :D

Offline huha

  • Posts: 388
Model M "Spacesaver" spring transplant
« Reply #2 on: Sat, 02 May 2009, 17:19:35 »
Key feel should be also somewhat dependant on case construction, so it's not guaranteed the Mini with different springs will feel like the donor board.

-huha
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Offline sandy55

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Model M "Spacesaver" spring transplant
« Reply #3 on: Sun, 03 May 2009, 09:15:05 »
If you REALLY want to swap ( just "swap") whole springs of your spacesaver Mini, you do not follow repairing process introduced above.

See here for removing/installing buckling springs.
removing springs

installing springs

it may be difficult removing/installing 84 springs safely and properly.

I have not examined both springs precisely so I do not know how spring rate of full size M differs from that of Mini.
Also you'd better consider huha's advice.
« Last Edit: Sun, 07 February 2010, 08:58:05 by sandy55 »
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Offline jayray999

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 46
Model M "Spacesaver" spring transplant
« Reply #4 on: Wed, 06 May 2009, 20:01:36 »
Thanks everybody. After reading your comments carefully I have decided to wait and see. I am a big believer in, "If it works don't fix it." The Mini I have is really good in every other respect so now I am convinced the casing is the reason for the different tactile feel.

Now for another transplant question; sorry if I  sound like a broken record.

Can I take the Blue Cherrys out of a G80-3000LSCRC-2 and transplant them into a FKBN87M/EB that has Brown Cherrys with minimum fuss and no soldering?

I do not have the FKBN87M/EB so if the answer is YES, I will set about acquiring one.

The Holy Grail I am in search of is a mini/compact keyboard for my laptop that is very clicky and tactile. After several weeks on this forum I have narrowed down my options to the following:

1. Dumb Luck: Stumble upon an old style SMK-88 or meet someone on this forum who has a spare and wants to do me a good turn.

2. Patience: Wait till Lowpoly's amazing mod goes into replication.

3. Perseverance: Lug a Mini Model M around. This is my current solution and of course the keyboard is next in quality only to the Model M that I use with my desktop.

4. Diligence: Follow Karlito's lead and create a Frankenstein SMK-88 with Blue Cherrys by braving solder fumes OR cut off the numeric keypad on a G80-3000LSCRC-2.

Which brings me to...

5. Simplicity: Mod an off the shelf KBN87M/EB by transplanting Blue Cherrys from an off the shelf G80-3000LSCRC-2.
« Last Edit: Wed, 06 May 2009, 20:28:22 by jayray999 »
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"In Italy for thirty years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder, bloodshed and they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly love, five hundred years of democracy and peace, and what did they produce? The cuckoo clock."
Harry Lime (Orson Welles) :: The Third Man (1949)

Offline cchan

  • Posts: 223
  • Location: Michigan
Model M "Spacesaver" spring transplant
« Reply #5 on: Wed, 06 May 2009, 20:35:57 »
Sorry, the Simplicity route will not work for you. Filcos' switches are plate mounted, so to get at the innards you must desolder them.
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Offline jayray999

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Model M "Spacesaver" spring transplant
« Reply #6 on: Wed, 06 May 2009, 20:38:47 »
I knew it was too good to be true. Oh well.
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"In Italy for thirty years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder, bloodshed and they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly love, five hundred years of democracy and peace, and what did they produce? The cuckoo clock."
Harry Lime (Orson Welles) :: The Third Man (1949)

Offline xyzzy

  • Posts: 155
  • Location: EU
Model M "Spacesaver" spring transplant
« Reply #7 on: Wed, 06 May 2009, 20:56:48 »
Not all is lost. Majestouch said he should have the Filco tenkeyless with blue clicky Cherry switches for sale in the next weeks.
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Offline o2dazone

  • Posts: 953
Model M "Spacesaver" spring transplant
« Reply #8 on: Wed, 06 May 2009, 21:27:12 »
Simplicity is do-able, but instead of swapping the switch, you just swap the internals of the switch. I believe this is do-able, and done by a few members on the board (correct me if I'm wrong though)
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Offline msiegel

  • Posts: 1230
Model M "Spacesaver" spring transplant
« Reply #9 on: Thu, 07 May 2009, 01:18:19 »
I restored a Space Saver using new spring/hammer assemblies provided by Unicomp, and apart from more consistent springiness across keys, they felt very similar to the originals: no change in activation force vs the less-used of the original springs.

However, replacing the plastic rivets with machine screws and bolts made the board sound less echo-y, and the feel noticeably more solid. (Thanks sandy55! :)
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Filco Zero (Fukka) AEKII sliders and keycaps * Filco Tenkeyless MX brown * IBM F/AT parts: modding
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Offline msiegel

  • Posts: 1230
Model M "Spacesaver" spring transplant
« Reply #10 on: Thu, 07 May 2009, 01:56:37 »
I loved that board... it lasted a good 3 years of heavy pounding before I spilled water directly into it :)

I sent it along to a buddy of mine; I just didn't have the stomach to remove all 42 screws and mess with the internals yet again *shakes head*.  I'll bet cleaning the membranes' contact points and adjusting screw tensions will revive it.

Next I'm going to try miniaturizing an AEK II... which will require programming a microcontroller, so it should be challenging!
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Filco Zero (Fukka) AEKII sliders and keycaps * Filco Tenkeyless MX brown * IBM F/AT parts: modding
Model F Mod Log * Open Source Generic keyboard controller

Offline xyzzy

  • Posts: 155
  • Location: EU
Model M "Spacesaver" spring transplant
« Reply #11 on: Thu, 07 May 2009, 05:32:49 »
Quote from: jayray999;89624
5. Simplicity: Mod an off the shelf KBN87M/EB by transplanting Blue Cherrys from an off the shelf G80-3000LSCRC-2.


Quote from: cchan;89628
Sorry, the Simplicity route will not work for you. Filcos' switches are plate mounted, so to get at the innards you must desolder them.


Quote from: o2dazone;89636
Simplicity is do-able, but instead of swapping the switch, you just swap the internals of the switch. I believe this is do-able, and done by a few members on the board (correct me if I'm wrong though)


As cchan said, in the Filco the switches are plate mounted, which means you cannot reach the tabs that hold in place the upper part of the switch (they are under the plate) so you cannot access its internals without desoldering.

It's possible to do the internals replacement without desoldering only in keyboards that have the switches directly mounted on the PCB (no plate), like the Compaq 11800 and most Cherry boards.
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IBM Model F62 (Ellipse's) • PFU HHKB Pro Type S Hybrid • PFU HHKB Pro • Leopold FC660C • IBM Model M SSK 1391472 • IBM Model M SSK UNI04C6 • IBM Model M 1391405 (x4) • Cherry MX 1800 Compact (blue Cherry) • Cherry MX 11900 Touchboard (brown Cherry) • Dell AT102W (black Alps) • Apple Extended Keyboard II (cream Alps) • Acer 6312-TA (black Acer) • Unikey KWD-601 (white Cherry)

Offline o2dazone

  • Posts: 953
Model M "Spacesaver" spring transplant
« Reply #12 on: Thu, 07 May 2009, 09:23:25 »
Ah my b I didn't know the switch was submerged under the pcb, good to know ^
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