Varmilo VA108M keycap edges initially uncomfy-sharp? All PBT's that way first?

[ibmkeyboardsrule]

Switching from the Leopold FC900R PBT kb's doubleshot keycaps (which feel very comfy, no sharp edges, though I've been banging on that keyboard several years)
compared to the Varmillo's I received today. Perhaps I'm forgetting if the Leopold's keycaps' edges were sharp the first few weeks/months? Can't remember.

The Varmilo's keycaps are so uncomfy that I couldn't endure it forever. Anyone specifically know whether PBT's in general are initially sharp-edged the first few days/weeks/months?

Reached out to Varmilo; their initial question is asking where I bought their kb, to verify whether I received the original actual Varmilo keycaps
(FYI, I bought it from mechanicalkeyboards.com).

I'm not presuming I received an accidentally sharp one, a lemon needing replacement, but this is how a replacement would also feel. Is it due to the angle/height of the varmilo vs the Leopold? (not sure if there is any diff in angle/height, just reaching for any explanation). The surprising sharpness is really noticeable, and in a bad way. BTW am banging on their Cherry MX browns on both kb's. Love the 3-lb weight of the Varmilo (vs. Leopold's nevertheless respectable 2.65) lb.

I researched any comments/feedback I could online about the varmilo VA108M, but no mention of sharp edged keys found.

Not sure whether to keep up till return allowed date to bang on them to see whether they soften or it's a known difference to accept or send back.

Am presuming they only changed the keycap legends a bit (rather than changed the material, sought a different supplier, etc.) just for this Mac-specific version of the VA108M
UPDATE: Varmilo support confirmed it's the same material/design/etc. for said Mac version. And they've never heard someone mentioning this issue. What gives? As mentioned, I'm not some pup transitioning from ABS keycaps / membrane / domes, etc.
Will await what Mechanicalkeyboards says and presumed refund and chalking up my fingers being incompatible to all Varmillo keycaps (huh?). Something's not adding up here.

[HungerMechanic]

It's been a while since I typed on my Varmilo keycaps, but I remember them having relatively sharp edges.

However, I actually find them more comfortable than Leopold keycaps. I actually find Leopold keycaps to feel sharper and more utilitarian.

I think it has a lot to do with typing angle, keyboard placement, user posture, and the particular keyboard.

Varmilo keycaps tend to do better, I find, on low-profile boards. Leopold seems to be designed for deeper cases.

In any case, I doubt your Varmilo keycaps are defective. I think all sorts of subjective factors will impact your typing experience with these keycaps. And both are not as smooth and rounded as they could be. If you want soft PBT, get EnjoyPBT, probably CRP as well and maybe even PBT MT3. SA Ice Cap.

[ibmkeyboardsrule]

Thanks for sharing your experience. Varmilo also said the Leopold should be sharper than the Varmilo, which deepens my confusion since I'm experiencing the opposite.
Makes me wonder whether it's just adjusting to any new kb other than the board I've been on for years, and to try out the Varmilo a solid week. Anyone with additional views, please chime in. The Varmilo is such a lovely kb/keycaps otherwise. With this Mac version, can change from Win to Mac mode via soft keys instead of dipswitches, wow.

Not sure I'm up to experience level taking those (presumed separate keycaps you mentioned) to replace on various board(s) etc.

[HungerMechanic]

I'll go take a look at my Varmilo. But I find that desk height and keyboard angle significantly impact my experience with Varmilo keycaps. There are subjective and objective factors that matter here.

And I agree with Varmilo that Leopold keycaps are pretty sharp or at least angular. I've always found them a bit hostile, despite their reputation.

[ibmkeyboardsrule]

Thanks for offering to double-check. A side-by-side of my Leopold against the new Varmilo is worlds of difference, but as mentioned, in exactly the opposite expectation as mentioned.

I've got 30 days before having to return the Varmilo.

Wondering whether I should just mess with a Macally with the cheap brown switches or the like. SMH.

[ibmkeyboardsrule]

re: posture, position, etc. I tried leaning forward all the way, hunched over the keyboard, as well as leaning far back, but neither extreme helped avoid said sharp-feeling edges.
Not sure what practical avenues there are in that regard to compensate. Surely someone -- should be several -- in the GH community have some real-world knowledge whether new PBT's *generally* are sharp around the edges (regardless of keyboard/housing/person's posture) but then soften after typing some span of time. No?

[yui]

i have had 3 type of pbt caps and none had sharp edges, i had kprepublic's pudding caps, some random tester caps (looks kinda DSA-ish) and my unicomp M, the only ones that felt different at 1st were the unicomp felling rougher and grippier (top texture) than what i was used to, although i never used either Leopold or Varmilo.
as far as softening go, yes it will but pbt is a resistant plastic so it may take some time, especially on the keys that see little use, after 2 years of heavy use the most used keys of my M are only starting to shine up a bit, most used seeming to be tab strangely.
either way if you like the keyboard you can find cheap keycaps online without that problem too.

[ibmkeyboardsrule]

Thanks. Hunger mentioned EnjoyPBT keycaps; I'm not clear in reading the description whether it would be a good physical fit (height/whatever) but presumably so for the Varmilo board.

[ibmkeyboardsrule]

MechanicalKeyboards.com saw fit not to answer any of my questions or comment on the issue, merely instructing me how to return the kb.

[HungerMechanic]

WRT the question about EnjoyPBT, it should be fairly close in profile to Varmilo and Leopold.

EnjoyPBT is a Chinese dye-subber that uses so-called 'Cherry' profile, although theirs is a little different. So it will be close to Cherry, but not identical to Cherry or Leopold / Varmilo. Still will be fairly close in profile on your keyboard.

EnjoyPBT is one of those, I find, that smooths or softens a little with use. But if you're planning on buying any, best wait till they complete their retooling. Then, their keycaps may be higher-quality.

[ibmkeyboardsrule]

That Summit kb by Varmilo is gorgeous. Complete with latitude/longitude coordinates on the return key.

What I'd really like is a kb with cherry browns, backlit illumination (with the kecap legends clear to shine said through, rather than Varmillos stock caps not having such and so the backlit just shines around the caps instead), Mac-specific legends (showing command, option, etc. keys).
PBT keycaps... guess I'm wishing for too much.

[HungerMechanic]

Drop ran a Tai Hao set intended mainly for their CTRL keyboards which was transparent letters on blue or forest green caps. Doubleshot PBT, OEM profile. It would probably be great on a Varmilo keyboard if Mac shortcuts could be configured, but I don't think it came with Mac-specific keys.

https://drop.com/buy/tai-hao-deep-forest-doubleshot-pbt-backlit-keycaps

Kind of a baseline of what's possible, though. There might be some shine-through sets with Mac legends on AliExpress or mechanicalkeyboards.com

You can set up keyboard shortcuts on Varmilo, probably, with some kind of software if you had to, at worst. This could give you Mac keys. And there must be backlit keycaps of the correct type out there somewhere. So you could just put those on a Varmilo, maybe reconfigure it for the shortcuts, and there you go.

[HungerMechanic]

Okay, I just examined two sets of Varmilo keycaps, and I can confirm that they are on the sharper / more angular end design-wise.

There is batch variance. Some orange keycaps are a little sharper than the gray ones. There is a pronounced differences between the surface edges on something like ABS MT3 and well-worn WYSE DCS as opposed to these Varmilo keycaps. The former are rounded and smooth, even soft. Varmilo are sharp by design.

Are they excessively sharp? The orange Varmilo are sharp enough to notice. I actually didn't mind, as I was using them as accent keys and for navigation. In that regard, the discrete edges were helpful.

I still think that typing angle is everything. I don't run into problems with sharp edges if everything is aligned right. But the sharp nature of these Varmilo keycaps could be a problem for some, if the angles are wrong. So you might want to consider returning them.

If you're looking for softer edges, go for ABS MT3, worn DCS, even well-poured GMK is not quite as sharp. Those are all ABS, though. I checked my ePBT 9009 R4 caps, and they are usually more rounded and softer around the edges than Varmilo.

[ibmkeyboardsrule]

Thanks for your time and research on this, HungerMechanic. I have 4 weeks to return them, so may hang onto them a couple weeks to see whether I adjust or perhaps even try other keycaps but keep the kb. BTW my fave caps were from an old 80's IBM beamspring (pre Model-M, pre-Model F) but that's another story

[HungerMechanic]

Haha, if you liked beamspring, you should look into MT3 WoB / BoW and the upcoming 3277.

[HungerMechanic]

Also, if you can do without backlighting, you might want to consider HK Gaming keycaps. Cheap, PBT, Cherry-profile, and has some Mac keys:

Not sure how sharp the surfaces are, though.

[ibmkeyboardsrule]

Thanks. I noticed that although my Leopold's low-contrast keycap legends were hard to see in subdued lighting, I could see the legends just fine with my Varmillo Mac caps (black legends on white background) without illumination. And the Varmillo backlit illumination (not shining through the caps) was a joke anyhow, heh.

[ibmkeyboardsrule]

I swapped out the keycaps Varmilo supplies for its VA108M and tried the now-softer PBT caps from my Leopold FC900R...I was surprised the Leopold's keycap edges felt sharper on the Varmilo board than they feel on the Leopold. Must be something about the board's profile/angle (despite trying it with the board flat and with its two legs propped out) or something.

Gave up on trying other caps on the Varmilo, and exchanged it for the lessor MacAlly board (which uses ABS caps, but at least uses brown switches, albeit K's not Cherries). I realize I could've bought some ABT's for the Varmilo first, but didn't want to risk even ABT's perhaps feeling weird for the same reason. All this despite Varmilo's being loved by many perhaps who have some radically different fingers posture than I and don't experience same

[HungerMechanic]

It's as I thought.

Typing angle is a large factor. My Varmilos are fine at the right angle, Leopold too, but you notice the sharpness as sub-optimal typing angles.

Also, yes, I suppose Leopold keycaps can be as sharp or sharper than the Varmilo. I never saw Leopold keycaps as particularly rounded. And I agree that their legends are low-contrast. And I think Varmilo keycaps may have been influenced by the Leopold profile. There's a lineage between Varmilo and Leopold, as the former was reportedly involved in manufacturing for the latter company.

I'm actually typing on a Leopold right now, with heavy Ergo Clears and the GMK Honeywell keycaps that are pictured in my profile image. I prefer the GMK to the stock Leopold keycaps for two reasons: first, GMK Honeywell is much more high-contrast than Leopold gray/blue. In fact, the contrast of Honeywell is very strong. Second, the keycap surface is smoother, and the corners a bit more rounded. I honestly find Leopold's PBT double-shots to be a little harsh to type on. Although they are fine for gaming, and go reasonably well with Ergo Clears.

My Ergo Clears are too heavy, though, and I really have to do something about that. 60 G actuation is just too much. It's too bad, because the stabilizers on this keyboard are excellent, and it's otherwise perfect.