Post by: keylock on Fri, 28 October 2011, 14:04:25
I have considered buying the Kinesis Advantage for some time but Im very disturbed by the blue keycaps. According to posts on this forum the keycaps of this keyboard seem to not be standard cherry keycaps. Is this accurate? can keycaps made for the Kinesis be purchased somewhere? This post http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:20814 describes a mod with g81 keycaps which seem to fit. Is the g81 keycaps also non standard keycaps? Does anyone have experience with with these keycaps?
Thanks in advance
Post by: Lanx on Fri, 28 October 2011, 14:19:27
Post by: keylock on Fri, 28 October 2011, 15:23:06
Post by: rantenki on Wed, 02 November 2011, 23:17:45
[ATTACH=CONFIG]30709[/ATTACH]
Post by: sordna on Wed, 02 November 2011, 23:53:02
The only reason these blue keycaps are different, is to tell you by feel (and by glancing) you are in the home row. Instead of nubs in the F and J keys, you have a concave spherical surface on all 8 home row keys. I actually like both the look and the feel of these keys, but you are free to change them with standard keys, they will fit and as long as your F and J have the nubs you'll have no problem locating the home row, either method works fine.
I put my some letter keys from my Poker to the Kinesis briefly and they fit perfectly.
Post by: Lanx on Thu, 03 November 2011, 00:43:10
Post by: Input Nirvana on Wed, 09 November 2011, 17:00:09
But, check this new thread out.....
http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:23722
(http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:23722)
Good old Geekhack back to the rescue with mo' koo' shizz!
Post by: Razer1987 on Tue, 22 November 2011, 06:10:16
Do you think that it would be weird to change the keycaps for SA family respecting the number of the row like a classic keyboard? I am affraid that the shape of the keyboard will make that uncomfortable…
ty
Post by: ricercar on Tue, 22 November 2011, 16:45:28
- The thumb keys are not shaped as you would expect. (I've left mine in place)
- The wide symbol keys - + | " are mostly fugly when replaced with single-width standard key caps.
- The cursor arrows do not match the angle of their neighbors.
Maybe if ripster's nice I'll post a picture. Chortle. (EDIT I'll add pics anyway, because _i'm_ nice.)
Post by: Razer1987 on Tue, 22 November 2011, 17:09:56
Quote from: ricercar;457743
- The thumb keys are not shaped as you would expect. (I've left mine in place)
i want to leave them too
Quote
- The wide symbol keys - + | " are mostly fugly when replaced with single-width standard key caps.
if all goes fine, i expect to get 1,25 width keys
Quote
- The cursor arrows do not match the angle of their neighbors.
not sure that i understand that… do they fit with the stock keycaps? because even if they were «row 3 arrows», you replaced them by row 4 DCS family? So if they are still from the same row even if the shape is not the same, it should fit?
I would like SA family on it but i am afraid to loose the ergonomy with row 2 and 4, every switch has its own position, they did that for a reason… and it would be too expensive to reproduce the original composition with my bépo layout.
i would love to see a picture
thank you
Post by: ricercar on Tue, 22 November 2011, 17:17:10
Quote
not sure that i understand that… do they fit with the stock keycaps?The arrow keys fit on the stems fine, but the key height and angle are dramatically different than the keys above them and to the sides.
Post by: Razer1987 on Tue, 22 November 2011, 17:25:30
is it an old one? because now the function keys don't have mx switches… do you know if yours has exactly the same shape of a new one? because it looks perfectly ergonomic.
Post by: ricercar on Tue, 22 November 2011, 17:37:45
As near as I can tell, it's the exact same form factor as the Advantage. However, Input Nirvana would know better, because he's owned both Essentials and Advantages.
Post by: sordna on Tue, 22 November 2011, 21:57:03
Quote from: ricercar;457775
The arrow keys fit on the stems fine, but the key height and angle are dramatically different than the keys above them and to the sides.
That's the case with the stock keycaps as well, they are angled differently. Anyway, you can play with the angle by turning those keycaps 180°, at least it's something to try and see what you find more comfortable.
In any case I don't think you lose much of the ergonomics by going with standard keycaps, for example keys 3 and 8 are indeed shorter than their neighbors, but the switches mounted on that column sit lower anyway, so you still get a lot of the ergonomic effect.
Regarding the arrow keys, I believe they are shorter than nomral keycaps, if your replacement keycaps feel too tall, you can always dremel them.
Post by: Input Nirvana on Thu, 01 December 2011, 22:33:19
There are 12 different key profiles on the Kinesis Contour, not counting the rubber keys. Some of the keys match Filco/Filco clone keys, I saw that when I was at WASD Keyboards. I was supposed to try and identify all the keys for a couple people here on GH and add it to my Kinesis mod article. Considering my life the last couple months, I'm lucky to still be able to type here occasionally, let alone anything else, so I don't feel too bad. My suggestion is for someone with a Kinesis to compare with a Filco/Filco clone to identify as many Kinesis keys as possible and post it. Then it will be done before I get around to it.
In the future (spring/6 months from now) I will be involved with another GH'r making molds for cases, modified cases, and key caps. The goals are higher quality cases, different colors, modified cases, split cases, sooper kool kwality key kaps. It will be wonderful I'm sure.
Post by: Razer1987 on Tue, 13 December 2011, 21:51:35
1 unit: 8 R4, 14 R3, 12 R2 (8 spherical), 18 R1, 4 R5
1,25 unit: 6 R2, 2 R4
2 unit: 2 R1 and 2 vertical like enter numpad
it is only ten different shapes, maybe i miss something?
the only keys that i can't reproduce with wasd are the 4 R5 (ctrl, alt, etc.) and the home row with spherical.
I will post some pics when i get them
Post by: Input Nirvana on Tue, 13 December 2011, 22:32:55
EDIT- All I did was take off the keycaps (you only need to take off one of the key wells since the keys are the same as the other side) and line them all up. Some are a different height, slope, size. I was going to go to WASD and match up what I could with Filco-type keys that he has. I know at least some of them match.
Post by: Razer1987 on Wed, 14 December 2011, 00:15:12
Post by: Input Nirvana on Wed, 14 December 2011, 00:26:24
I'll take mine keys off first. I'm sure I'll have an accurate answer. I'm a detail nit-pick person.
BRB 20 mins.
EDIT----
I coded each key cap type with a letter (A, B, C,....)
One problem is I only came up with 11 key types, not 12. I can't remember where/what the 12th key type was since I can't find my notebook, and I did this about 2 years ago. Maybe the 12th key type was the rubber nubbins.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]34922[/ATTACH]
Post by: Razer1987 on Wed, 14 December 2011, 01:25:34
Post by: Input Nirvana on Wed, 14 December 2011, 01:27:45
Post by: Razer1987 on Wed, 14 December 2011, 01:37:23
without any measuring device but only my eyes a flat space and a flat plastic card, i see it like that
Post by: Input Nirvana on Wed, 14 December 2011, 01:44:00
And the two bottom rows are different keys, they are similar, but different.
Take another look, confirm you are doing the RIGHT HAND key well.. before we proceed.
Post by: Razer1987 on Wed, 14 December 2011, 01:46:00
Post by: Razer1987 on Wed, 14 December 2011, 01:51:42
the only difference between us is that i don't see any difference between G and H
Post by: Input Nirvana on Wed, 14 December 2011, 01:54:58
I was going to have WASD etch Klingon characters onto the key caps :)
[ATTACH=CONFIG]34924[/ATTACH]
Post by: Razer1987 on Wed, 14 December 2011, 01:57:41
Post by: Input Nirvana on Wed, 14 December 2011, 02:00:25
Post by: Razer1987 on Wed, 14 December 2011, 02:01:48
Post by: Input Nirvana on Wed, 14 December 2011, 02:11:02
Look:
[ATTACH=CONFIG]34925[/ATTACH]
Kinesis has changed key cap manufacturers. The black one on left is from #82000 and the white one is from #35000. The black one does not have the R1 designation. And on #82000 the two bottom rows are the SAME.
Post by: Razer1987 on Wed, 14 December 2011, 02:19:06
and also mine are not from the same manufacturer as 82000 because i have R1 designation
so you think that i am not crazy and that i have two identical rows?
Post by: Input Nirvana on Wed, 14 December 2011, 02:30:39
On my #82000 I do not have the R1 designations, I have B4, B6, B15 on the same exact keys...seems like gibberish. On the white (over 10 years old) the rows are slightly different. I just checked 2 other boards #40000, #31000 and they have the slightly different rows.
You're not crazy, you're French :)
Post by: Razer1987 on Wed, 14 December 2011, 02:34:30
Post by: Input Nirvana on Wed, 14 December 2011, 02:41:22
There has to be a way to get this done, I'll help. Give me the info on the keys you are doing...
I can see that he would be in a bad spot if something happened to a couple of the keys and he couldn't replace them.
Post by: Razer1987 on Wed, 14 December 2011, 02:53:09
i want 8 row 3 DSA family keys to reproduce the home row with a bépo layout
and 5 row 5 DCS family to reproduce 2 Ctrl, 1 Alt Gr, 1 Menu and 1 windows flag
i think that i can get the spherical keys easily from the Round 4 group buy and maybe i can ask 7bit to add row 5 to the group buy… because even if they have them in stock, i don't know if Signature Plastic can sell such a few quantity to me… i have to ask them
but maybe if some Kinesis users want to make custom keysets, it will be interesting to get these keys in a bigger quantity
Post by: Input Nirvana on Wed, 14 December 2011, 02:59:25
EDIT- Anything custom on your Kinesis...I'd like to put a picture in the photo Gallery of the Kinesis mod article.
Post by: Razer1987 on Wed, 14 December 2011, 03:36:52
Post by: Input Nirvana on Wed, 14 December 2011, 03:41:34
I may be going past WASD on Dec. 23. I can see if he will be there and I can bring one of my Kinesis keyboards and get the key caps matched once and for all. If that is of any help to you, let me know and I'll post the info.
Hey, you have Cnerry blue MX switches on the Advantage?
Post by: Razer1987 on Wed, 14 December 2011, 03:56:00
I have some time before ordering the keycaps from wasd, i didn't finish my layout, i begin with coraldraw so it takes time…
i emailed Kinesis about keycaps infos and Signature Plastic to see if they can sell little keys quantity. I know that the keys from SP (even from WASD) will not be exactly the same as stock but at least it would be a good way to keep the same ergonomic feeling. I will post the answers.
And it would be great if you can share your info about the keys with WASD.
Post by: Razer1987 on Wed, 14 December 2011, 15:15:50
-Kinesis : These are our custom molds so we would not be able to provide contact information. If there is a special layout you would want, our supplier has a 1000 keycap set minimum. We would be able to check on pricing for the layout you are requesting.
(i ask them if they can share there manufacturer and the exact keys composition)
-SP : We have these stock items available for $1.00 / each - for a total of $14
(USD). Shipping to the US will be $3.50 and shipping to France will be
$5.50. If you would like to proceed, I will send you an invoice for payment
through PayPal, I would just need to know where the items will be shipping
to.
This is very cool, so if other people want that
- 8 row 3 from DSA family
- 6 row 5 from DCS family (the kinesis only needs 4 but i want to make also the alternative keys)
maybe we can have lower prices with multiple orders.
A combination between WASD set and these keys would be a great way to reproduce the stock set at a correct price.
So next step is to convince WASD to work on our own keycaps… (it would also be awesome if they were able to laser etched the side of keys to reproduce the keypad layout)
Post by: Input Nirvana on Wed, 14 December 2011, 15:32:37
If WASD could be profitable being THE Kinesis Custom Key Cap Guy on the Planet, I'm sure he might consider doing it.
Can you clarify the SP info? I'm a bit lost.
Post by: Razer1987 on Wed, 14 December 2011, 16:20:15
Quote from: input nirvana;470796
Kinesis wants 1000. If it were 500 I'd throw money in to make a buy, but I'm conservative. There is a market for the custom caps, I don't know how big it is since I would imagine almost all Kinesis users are touch-typists. You almost have to be.
i am a beginner touch typist, i anticipate this purchase even if i am not really able to take advantage of it because i have a good opportunity to buy it in Canada and it is cheaper than in France.
i don't know if i have to understand 1000 sets or 1000 keys… still it is a lot, i type with bépo layout and i am not gonna find a lot of people who want that…
Quote
If WASD could be profitable being THE Kinesis Custom Key Cap Guy on the Planet, I'm sure he might consider doing it.it would be great but i am not sure that the market is really big… most of kinesis users only need blank keycaps…
Quote
Can you clarify the SP info? I'm a bit lost.
SP can sell the keys that WASD cannot provide. And you can buy only one key if you want and if it is in stock.
- the home row with spherical (DSA family R3) lot of colors available
- the modifiers keys like «alt» and «ctrl» which look like DCS family R5 (the highest key) only black in stock
i know that this mix will not be perfect as stock, because every manufacturer has its own profile key but i am sure that SP keys will fit nicely with WASD keys. It is the only way to keep the ergonomic profile.
i am not sure that WASD can find this kind of keys (sph and R5) in the family keycaps that they provide
the only way to have a homogeneous family keyboard would be to purchase a full set of SP keycaps but we don't know if they have the same profile as stock set (same problem with WASD).
Post by: fossala on Wed, 14 December 2011, 16:22:06
Post by: Input Nirvana on Wed, 14 December 2011, 18:53:35
Personally I just want blank key caps.
Post by: Razer1987 on Wed, 14 December 2011, 19:07:46
I am gonna try WASD for a full set and replace the R5 by R4 and the sph by classic one.
Post by: kps on Sat, 17 December 2011, 18:41:59
Code: [Select]
Front Back Front Kinesis
P0 340 380 A S D F J K L ;
P1 475 550 75° Ctrl Alt Alt Ctrl
P2 400 425 73° =+ 1 2 4 5 6 7 9 0 -_ Home PageUp
P3 350 335 71° 3 8 Q W E R T Y U I O P
P4 350 290 70° Tab \| CapsLock G H '" SHIFT SHIFT End PageDown
P5 380 280 71° Z X C V B N M , . /
P6 415 275 71° `~ Insert Left Right Up Down [{ ]} Delete Enter
P7 415 300 70° BackSpace SpaceI believe this means they would map to a normal keyboard's keys like this:
Code: [Select]
P0 A row A S D F J K L ;
P1 Function row Ctrl Alt Alt Ctrl
P2 1 row =+ 1 2 4 5 6 7 9 0 -_ Home PageUp
P3 Q row 3 8 Q W E R T Y U I O P
P4 A row Tab \| CapsLock G H '" SHIFT SHIFT End PageDown
P5 Z row Z X C V B N M , . /
P6 Modifier row `~ Insert Left Right Up Down [{ ]} Delete Enter
P7 Keypad Enter BackSpace SpaceEdit: diagrams superseded by this later post (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?23446-kinesis-advantage-keycap-replacement-limitations&p=473372&viewfull=1#post473372).
Post by: dorkvader on Sat, 17 December 2011, 19:55:04
Do your know why 3 and 8 are different profiles? I assume it's to help tough typing on the number row.
Post by: Input Nirvana on Sat, 17 December 2011, 20:13:37
KPS- Nice, better than I would have done. Can I use this in the Split Kinesis mod article? It can be helpful for others.
Interesting note about differences between two rows that was mentioned before:
I'm noticing that there is a difference between the two rows (P5 and P6), but not on the newer Advantage.
Post by: kps on Sat, 17 December 2011, 21:04:06
Quote from: input nirvana;472988
Can I use this in the Split Kinesis mod article? It can be helpful for others.
Sure, use it anywhere.
Quote
Interesting note about differences between two rows that was mentioned before:
I'm noticing that there is a difference between the two rows (P5 and P6), but not on the newer Advantage.
I do have an Advantage (at work) and a KB120 (in storage). Some day I may get around to measuring them as well.
Post by: Input Nirvana on Sun, 18 December 2011, 03:13:53
Quote from: kps;473003
I do have an Advantage (at work) and a KB120 (in storage). Some day I may get around to measuring them as well.
Earlier in this thread, I scratched out a diagram showing the two rows key types I assigned the designations"G" and "H"....(I know, it's crude, but I did it quick to get info to our new GH buddy Razor1987). This was using key caps from either a 130 or 132 Essential.
Some key cap info:
Doubleshot keys on Model 100 (black legend), 110, 120. Singleshot keys 130, 132 Essential, 133 Classic, 134 Professional, Advantage, Advantage Pro.
Doubleshot keys have a shorter "skirt" or the "sides of the key cap" than the singleshots.
The doubleshot keys that have dual legends...only one of the two legends is doubleshot.
I have a 134 Professional with dual legends (qwerty/dvorak) that is doubleshot. I suppose they were just 'using up' their dual legend stock so it happened to be a doubleshot set.
On my Advantage SN# 82000, the key caps (your rows P5 and P6) are the same exact key cap in size. Same key caps, no difference.On my 134 Professional with doubleshots/dual legends (your rows P5 and P6) are the same exact key cap in size. Same key caps, no difference.
Either on my 130 or 132 (your rows P5 and P6) are different as you show. ------I will go and make other comparisons in the next day or so and update this line----(I have 5 models to compare)
If anyone has any questions, please ask now, not later. Taking all these key caps off all these boards to measure and compare is a chore :)
EDIT---With this info/diagrams that kps provided (Post #46), it should be possible to look for replacement key caps.
Post by: kps on Sun, 18 December 2011, 15:21:14
Quote from: input nirvana;473138
Doubleshot keys have a shorter "skirt" or the "sides of the key cap" than the singleshots.Good point. I will switch to stem-relative measurements in the diagrams.
Post by: kps on Sun, 18 December 2011, 16:48:55
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=35367)
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=35368)
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=35369)
Post by: Input Nirvana on Sun, 18 December 2011, 18:23:54
I'm updating your images in the Split Kinesis mod article.
Post by: kps on Mon, 19 December 2011, 19:22:29
Code: [Select]
KB120 KB130 Advantage
Fr Bk St Fr Bk Fr Bk St Fr Bk Fr Bk St Fr Bk
P0 285 320 -90 340 380 -40 345 375 -40
P1 435 490 -10 74° 85° 475 550 -55 75° 88° 500 550 -45 80° 85°
P2 340 350 -5 66° 88° 400 425 -55 73° 88° 405 425 -40 72° 88°
P3 275 250 -10 67° 85° 350 335 -40 71° 88° 345 325 -35 69° 88°
P4 275 210 -5 61° 83° 350 290 -60 70° 88° 340 285 -40 69° 88°
P5 255 205 -10 62° 85° 380 280 -40 71° 88° 375 285 -40 69° 88°
P6 355 305 -10 63° 88° 415 275 -45 71° 88° 375 285 -40 69° 88°
P7 355 215 -10 63° 83° 415 300 -45 70° 88° 380 285 -40 69° 88°(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=35464)
Post by: Input Nirvana on Mon, 19 December 2011, 20:33:02
I'm surprised there is a key cap difference from the 130 to the Advantage.
EDIT---I guess different key cap manufacturer, some specifications not crucial, the degree of slope seems the same? Height of key top on switch should be the same?
Now to see if all the key caps can be acquired as 'standard' key caps from sources....a few with the very high 'skirts' wouldn't be too crucial I think...
Post by: kps on Tue, 20 December 2011, 09:44:57
Quote from: input nirvana;474109
You confirm P5 and P6 are the same on the Advantage. What is the serial # of your Advantage?Model KB500USB-bkl Serial# 51919UB
Model KB132MPC Serial# 30614EM
Model 120 Serial# 20958
Quote
EDIT---I guess different key cap manufacturerAlthough I only measure two of each profile from the Advantage, my impression is that its keycaps are molded to tighter tolerances than the older ones, though we're talking <5 mils rather than ~10.
Quote
some specifications not crucial, the degree of slope seems the same? Height of key top on switch should be the same?I was surprised by how much difference there was in some of the caps, e.g. a full 1/10 inch in the home keys between KB120 and KB130. I certainly have never noticed any difference in key shape between KB130 and Advantage (my primary home and work keyboards) though I did notice a difference in key feel (Cherry switches do wear!).
Quote
Now to see if all the key caps can be acquired as 'standard' key caps from sources....a few with the very high 'skirts' wouldn't be too crucial I think...I suspect any reasonably similar caps would be fine. I think SP has a choice of stem lengths, which might help someone ordering from them.
Post by: Input Nirvana on Tue, 20 December 2011, 10:47:32
Quote from: kps;474382
Model# KB500USB-bkl Serial# 51919UB
I believe my KB132MPC is 30xxx.
Although I only measure two of each profile from the Advantage, my impression is that its keycaps are molded to tighter tolerances than the older ones, though we're talking <5 mils rather than ~10.
I was surprised by how much difference there was in some of the caps, e.g. a full 1/10 inch in the home keys between KB120 and KB130. I certainly have never noticed any difference in key shape between KB130 and Advantage (my primary home and work keyboards) though I did notice a difference in key feel (Cherry switches do wear!).
I suspect any reasonably similar caps would be fine. I think SP has a choice of stem lengths, which might help someone ordering from them.
Cherry switches wearing: Are you referring to the tactile bump, the spring tension, or both?
I wonder if there is a difference in the actual keywells (the 'basket' that the switches are mounted into)? I'm not going to investigate that :)
On the most recent "CODE" measurements, can you explain the relative measurements?
I am going to be making key caps (as shown in a GH thread), this info is extremely relevant. And if someone wants no legends/different legends this will be their guide.
Post by: kps on Tue, 20 December 2011, 11:44:42
Quote from: input nirvana;474442
Cherry switches wearing: Are you referring to the tactile bump, the spring tension, or both?
Tactile bump. My KB132 was my work keyboard for 12 years (I'm a programmer) when I got the Advantage.
Quote
I wonder if there is a difference in the actual keywells (the 'basket' that the switches are mounted into)? I'm not going to investigate that :)
I hadn't thought of that; I just assumed they were the same. I may try a quick check with a profile gauge, though that probably wouldn't identify any difference that wouldn't also be visible.
Quote
On the most recent "CODE" measurements, can you explain the relative measurements?
Code: [Select]
KB120 KB130 Advantage
Fr Bk St Fr Bk Fr Bk St Fr Bk Fr Bk St Fr Bk
P0 285 320 -90 340 380 -40 345 375 -40
P1 435 490 -10 74° 85° 475 550 -55 75° 88° 500 550 -45 80° 85°
P2 340 350 -5 66° 88° 400 425 -55 73° 88° 405 425 -40 72° 88°
P3 275 250 -10 67° 85° 350 335 -40 71° 88° 345 325 -35 69° 88°
P4 275 210 -5 61° 83° 350 290 -60 70° 88° 340 285 -40 69° 88°
P5 255 205 -10 62° 85° 380 280 -40 71° 88° 375 285 -40 69° 88°
P6 355 305 -10 63° 88° 415 275 -45 71° 88° 375 285 -40 69° 88°
P7 355 215 -10 63° 83° 415 300 -45 70° 88° 380 285 -40 69° 88°(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=35546)
First two columns (Fr Bk) are the height of the key from the bottom of the skirt to the lowest point of the cylinder. St is the distance between the bottom of the stem and the bottom of the skirt; all the stems are inset slightly (shorter than the skirt). So Fr+St and Bk+St are the stem-relative heights shown in the diagrams. The final two columns are the angles between the base of the (bottom of the skirt) and the front and back faces of the key.
Post by: Input Nirvana on Tue, 20 December 2011, 12:02:56
Post by: erw on Tue, 20 December 2011, 17:59:23
I have #80318UB-se, btw.
Post by: Input Nirvana on Tue, 20 December 2011, 20:59:12
1) I'll send an email to Rick at Kinesis and ask if there is any info (such as approximately when the changes may have occurred and if there is more than the 3 we now know about thanks to Kps). I'll also ask if there is are different keywell 'baskets'.
2) I'm probably going to WASD Keyboards on Friday the 23rd, and will bring at least a 130 series and an Advantage. Before that I'll look and see if there are any differences between the 130, 132, 134. We'll try to match up all the key caps on the boards and test fit.
Then WASD will be the "go-to" guy for Kinesis key caps. He'll be the "#1 Kinesis Key Cap Expert on the Planet" and have the exact key cap layout. Hell, that's gotta be worth something to someone somewhere. This will allow different colors/laser/etching if he knows what key cap to supply. And we may be able to get equally sized and shaped PBT or other type key caps, maybe even doubleshots. Imagine, one-click Kinesis key cap ordering. Who would have thunk it?
I'll try and see if there are any differences with the keywell 'basket', but somehow I doubt there is. I'll be sure to keep the (at least) 3 key cap sets for future reference and for key cap molding purposes.
I will mold key caps for the Kinesis this spring with my goal being to make a better-feeling key cap. If it turns out great, I'll be here to brag. If it sucks, you'll never hear another word about it ever again.
Post by: sordna on Tue, 20 December 2011, 21:27:34
Post by: Input Nirvana on Tue, 20 December 2011, 22:40:08
There is also the possibility that a couple key caps will be VERY close but not exact. That may be an option as well. I'll bring calipers...I don't have an angle finder anymore though :(
I will take a black and a white keyboard, and we'll put various colors on them and have him snap some pics in his photo-box. They may not all be the correct key caps, but I think it would be wise to get some cool color concept pics to show and inspire.
I bet we can definitely do some sort of a group buy between GH and Deskthority at least once or twice.
OBSERVATION:
My Kinesis doubleshots home row are shiny and smoother than the singleshot home row.
The doubleshots other than home row are less shiny and smooth than the singleshots other than home row.
Can you confirm Sordna and KPS?
Post by: sordna on Tue, 20 December 2011, 23:18:58
Quote from: input nirvana;474907
My Kinesis doubleshots home row are shiny and smoother than the singleshot home row.
The doubleshots other than home row are less shiny and smooth than the singleshots other than home row.
Can you confirm Sordna and KPS?
The keyboards I have close to me (the Advantage LF and my pristine model #110) do not have shine on the keys yet :-)
My other model #110 has keys so shiny from use, they are glossy like mirrors on all rows! However, being doubleshots they actually look great!
Post by: boli on Wed, 21 December 2011, 03:27:10
Post by: Input Nirvana on Wed, 21 December 2011, 09:43:04
Quote from: boli;475041
Just to let you know, I'd be interested in a set or 3 of Colemak (or possibly blank) key caps as well. Wouldn't mind getting rid of the stickers on the numbers row and other places, but that'd mean a slightly different layout in my case.
You mean from WASD Keyboards? PM me with the keyboards/key cap info/questions/thoughts asap.
This...
[ATTACH=CONFIG]35600[/ATTACH]
Or this?
[ATTACH=CONFIG]35601[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=CONFIG]35602[/ATTACH]
Post by: kps on Wed, 21 December 2011, 09:57:25
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=20607)
Since the function row (what I call P1) is not taller, I think the main concern would be whether the thumb modifiers can be pressed naturally without accidentally activating the key below.
Post by: Input Nirvana on Wed, 21 December 2011, 10:03:12
And so it begins....
Post by: Input Nirvana on Wed, 21 December 2011, 10:11:55
Post by: boli on Wed, 21 December 2011, 13:50:58
Quote from: input nirvana;475149
You mean from WASD Keyboards? PM me with the keyboards/key cap info/questions/thoughts asap.
Oh are you in a hurry? I thought you'd go talk to the WASD guy first to check if he can even provide all the different keys needed for a Kinesis Contoured, and possibly even offer sets, and since it's nice to know some people who'd likely buy I thought I'd tell you I'm interested in general. :)
Anyway, I have 3 Kinesis Contoured Advantage (all less than 3 years old), two of which are in use.
- Advantage LF, black UB, model # KB500USB-blk-LF, serial # 80013UBLF (in use at home)
- Advantage, black USB, model # KB500USB-G-blk, serial # 80441UB (gathering dust at home)
- Advantage, black USB, model # KB500USB-G-blk, serial # dunno it's at work
Depending on price/availability I'm interested in:
Ideally: Two full sets of key caps for my custom (Colemak) layout (http://homepage.mac.com/boli/ars/80329_kinesis_colemak_small.png). Since I'm the only one who uses this I guess it's rather unlikely to be able to get it. All the main keys are Colemak, but many of the other stuff is changed. If you think it's possible I could ofc make a list of keys using the excellent key cap overview by kps (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?23446-kinesis-advantage-keycap-replacement-limitations&p=473372&viewfull=1#post473372) - or do you think the key caps on my newer models are different?
Alternatively: Two full sets of blank key caps (not as awesome as Colemak keycaps, but beats having wrong info printed on the keys). Maybe a light and a dark set to make a check board pattern (like some korean SC2 players and sordna). ;) Light/dark shades of grey would probably be better than black/white.
***
Also WTH is that thing called Frankenboard? :D Nice work on the blank black keboard, I like the real F keys and extra thumb keys. Even the blank grey one looks very nice. :)
Post by: Input Nirvana on Wed, 21 December 2011, 13:59:13
Since WASD custom laser/etch all him keys, you can get anything.
The Frankenboard looks like something from the Apollo lunar landings...I can just see Buzz and Neil pounding away on it now...
Post by: boli on Wed, 21 December 2011, 14:02:09
Post by: Input Nirvana on Wed, 21 December 2011, 14:13:26
I just sent an email to Rick at Kinesis with the questions, and a link to this page/thread.
Post by: Input Nirvana on Wed, 21 December 2011, 15:11:58
"The keycaps started out standard from Cherry, however years ago there were changes in the factory."
"Different factories have different tools and methods, which explain some of the slight differences, especially in the slope."
"However, looking at some of those diagrams, one must take into account the length of the stem. Where one keycap from say an older model 120 may appear smaller than a keycap from a newer keyboard, the stem was likely longer, thus it wouldn’t feel any different when placed on the Cherry key switch."
"As far as I know there have only those three styles, however it was never intentional. The slight differences were simply a matter of changing factories over the years."
So I guess it would seem that Kinesis had the profile/slope/height of each key cap where they wanted it, they have kept it (or tried to keep it) the virtually the same, and anything underlying (shorter key, longer stem, visa-versa) is somewhat of a non-issue. It's all about the key cap top height and slope (which a minor variance shouldn't be an issue). I'm still not clear if there are any actual special "Kinesis" key caps.
Post by: Input Nirvana on Wed, 21 December 2011, 22:48:07
I was thinking that if anyone had a specific idea of key cap colors/combinations they wanted to see/might want on a Kinesis, when I go on Fri. I'll have a white and a black Kinesis that we can 'mock up' and Weyman can take pics in his photo-box.
This has always been a favorite color scheme of mine:
[ATTACH=CONFIG]35648[/ATTACH]
Post by: boli on Thu, 22 December 2011, 03:32:36
On a Kinesis board the whole Esc/F# keys row would need to stay the same, given they're rubber keys. I assume the yellow key is something special like Fn?
Most of the modifier keys are in the thumb cluster on a Kinesis and thus already easily distinguished from the other keys - only Shift and Tab are left as special keys in the keywell area... for symmetry I'd probably only change the Shift keys (at most, maybe even leave them) and leave Tab alone. Or more likely, because it's easier: leave the thumb clusters alone, leave the Shift keys alone, and just change the other keys.
This is assuming labeled key caps. With blank keys all of them would need to be replaced (except the rubber keys).
BTW I'm in contact with Kinesis about LF keywells to upgrade my Cherry Brown Kinesis, and I asked about key caps. Rick referred me to this thread. Small world. :)
Post by: fossala on Thu, 22 December 2011, 04:25:21
Post by: boli on Thu, 22 December 2011, 05:10:24
Post by: erw on Thu, 22 December 2011, 11:08:02
Yesterday I ordered a few keys from WASD: Green shift and arrow keys (so it's symmetrical (though I know not everyone keeps the arrow keys in their default locations (well, me neither -- I swapped up and down))). And then a red key for my control (caps lock) which will break the symmetry. But all in all, I think black with a bit of blue and green and then a red accent will work nicely. I'll post pics when I get them.
Post by: Input Nirvana on Thu, 22 December 2011, 11:10:09
http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/
We just need to get the right keys laid out, which we'll do tomorrow and hopefully have a work around with the couple issues we see here in this thread. I'll post here tomorrow evening.
Regarding the color scheme I posted on the HHKB above, it's about the look, nothing at all to do with the purpose of the keys. It's just pretty :)
Post by: Input Nirvana on Thu, 22 December 2011, 11:15:16
I (we, with my employees) had what seemed to be a pretty clean retrofit solution to convert them to switches. I was going to do it at cost (about $30), figuring about 10 people would send their keyboards, and we could get the idea 'out there'. The real problem which makes this not feasible, is the other 6 keys in the rubber F-key row. Moving them is a full-on complete re-work solution.
Post by: Input Nirvana on Sat, 24 December 2011, 18:21:07
***I will be editing this single post with updated information, solutions, thoughts, work-arounds.***
WASD Keyboards Kinesis Key Cap Project
First, let me thank WASD Keyboards for all of their help and support. Ever since the beginning, they've been informative and have provided solutions. Without their efforts, some of these projects would be dead-in-the-water. Plus WASD still has areas they are evolving into that will further be of interest to GH.
This post is a work in progress and what I have done currently. I need to add more pics with close ups and edit. I'm trying to get all the info and the steps to get to the 'perfect' point. What we've discovered is that many keys were the same, a few aren't, some of which are still ok, and a few that need a work around. The few that may not be an exact match, I will be using for a week or two to see if I notice or get used to the differences.
Direct key cap replacement:
[ATTACH=CONFIG]35886[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=CONFIG]35910[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=CONFIG]35911[/ATTACH]
The key caps that can be replaced with EXACTLY the same key caps ONLY, are shown in this photo. There are 6 key cap 'types' so far and they are color coded (mostly). Red, orange, grey, and white single keys, and the two long grey keys which are also different from each other (they should have been 2 completely different colors for this example). For the right hand keywell/thumb cluster the "SPACE" key is an 'enter' key on a num pad. The "ENTER" key is an 'R1 1x2' key. The 10 Black and blue keys with legends in this picture are original Kinesis key caps that don't have an exact replacement (yet). At this stage, everything is as original, no changes.
KEY ISSUE #1 (affects 6 keys-pinky keys)
[ATTACH=CONFIG]35890[/ATTACH]
The extreme right row, lower 3 pinky keys match R2 which is the same profile as a "G" and "H" key but are 1x1.25 instead of 1x1. The replacement keys are about 1mm taller front skirt than the original Kinesis keys (which affects the slope) These are R1 1x1.25. Note the 2 red arrows to show the slightly high key corners. The bottom key it's not an issue, the top key you may graze the high corner. This key may not be an issue\problem, I'm just trying to get the exact replacements as a first choice.
OPTION: Need R2 1.25 keys that have the actual same slope of key top. (HELP: you can compare with the "G" or "H" key, should be same exact top slope and height). I don't believe this designation key cap exists as a 'standard key'.
KEY ISSUE #2 (affects 2 keys-pinky keys)
[ATTACH=CONFIG]35891[/ATTACH]
The extreme right row, upper most singlepinky key is a NUM 1.25 version of the NUM/P2 row key. So it's different than the 3 keys below it. At this time we are using the same key as the lower 3, so it's 'flatter' and not facing you as much as the original Kinesis key. The upper corner key is such a low-use key, this may be acceptable.
OPTION: Need a NUM/F-key that is 1.25. (HELP: you can compare with a "NUM" or "F-key" key, should be same exact top slope and height).
KEY ISSUE #3 (affects 8 keys-home row)
[ATTACH=CONFIG]35892[/ATTACH]
The 4 home row keys (blue) are spherical. I don't know if this is for ergo purposes, for home row identification, or a little marketing, but I'm thinking it may be for the latter two choices. Since WASD had no spherical keys we used the same profile as the orange row (R3/P3) above, because they are the 'flattest' slope. I believe the spherical keys are available, we just need to source them. Here is an observation/possible solution: If you look at the entire home row (HJKL:") the key to the very left and the very right are the profile (R2 or P4 on kps chart) which also is a standard key. Yet the 4 keys that the fingers rest on are zero slope/slant. Maybe this is not as much for ergonomics as it is just for the identifying of the home row finger positions. If that is the case, those home row keys could either be 1) stay as the sphericals, or 2) have the same "ergo" profile as the left and right key (R2/P4) but have a nubbin for identifying. I should have recognized this sooner when I was at WASD Keyboards. I have replaced the R3 we put on at WASD with R2/P4 and I think it's very good, maybe better than the R3.
OPTIONS:
1) find Spherical
2) R2
(HELP: you can swap and compare and offer opinions)
KEY ISSUE #4 (affects 4 keys-thumb cluster single keys)
The two keys at the top of the cluster are very tall (see P1 on KPS chart). The slope is not a problem, it's available, but not in a key of that dramatic height. I'm working on changing some other key heights for a work around. Since we didn't have any of the 2 highest keys, I'm playing with adjusting all three key heights. In the pictures above, you can see the original Kinesis keys with legends, and the 2 lower keys that are the appropriate keys for those positions (red and grey keys). What I've done to keep the staggered height, is to remove the highest keys and move the keys "up" a spot to see if it will all work together. There are a couple ways to do this, and I'm looking for what's best.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]35883[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]35885[/ATTACH]
We will need to (ideally) get the exact keys, but just short of that, what we have here will work. I need a couple days of using it on one hand to see how any differences may affect usage.
The key on the left is an R2/P4 on kps chart, the middle key is the NUM/Fkey/P2 on kps chart, and the key on the right is the extra tall P1 on kps chart, and seems to not be a standard key. Perhaps someone can measure the tallest keys on the Race?
[ATTACH=CONFIG]35907[/ATTACH]
OPTIONS:
1) Need correct key height/slope (see KPS chart for measurement)
2) develop work around with multiple key adjustments (not as bad of an idea as it sounds)
(HELP: you can swap and compare and offer opinions)
Fun Factoid: I found out at WASD Keyboards that the original doubleshot keys (allegedly from Cherry) appear EXACTLY like Signature Plastics doubleshots, they look exactly like the key caps for the Kinesis keyboards. They were only offered in white, but it just so happens that WASD has a bunch of black doubleshots many that fit Kinesis...they look good :) Good thing for WASD I don't like legends, or I woulda been stashing those bad boys in my pockets till I jingled out his store!
[ATTACH=CONFIG]35909[/ATTACH]
WASD Keyboards has the following colors, laser, etching available (if not more that I don't know about):
[ATTACH=CONFIG]35912[/ATTACH]
And keys can always be Rit Dyed for more combinations like purple, pink, safari stripes or camo.
I am still going to be making resin key caps for the Kinesis sometime this spring. Who knows what will happen? If it can be made to be high-quality, and easily, might do it and have WASD sell them.
KEYBOARDING RESULTS:
Key issue #1-No problems and can't tell a difference.
Key issue #2-No problems but I can tell a difference. These two keys are very low use, so I'm going to say that the difference is negligible.
Key issue #3-No problems, I am currently using the R2 and am used to it.
Key issue #4-This I have not had the time to address :(
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
UPDATE: 1-25-2012
Boli, the human guinia pig, has ordered this from WASD Keyboards as the first test set. This set is lacking the 4 tall modifier keys (CTRL, ALT/OPT, WIN/COMMAND)
[LIST=|INDENT=1]
- 10 R4 (1w)
- 12 R3 (1w)
- 12 R2 (1w)
- 18 R1 (1w)
- 8 R1 (1.25w)
- 2 R1 1x2 (2w)
- 2 NumpadEnter (2w)
Post by: dorkvader on Sun, 25 December 2011, 00:01:25
Still: Good work! I also like the pictures. I'm a visual learner, so seeing the different colour on the [8] key really explained things for me. I sort-of understood why it was a different profile until now, but now it makes a lot of sense.
Post by: Input Nirvana on Sun, 25 December 2011, 03:31:49
I'll go back and add, amend, correct, solve the key cap issues in POST #83. It's quite involved unfortunately and not worth it for all the crazy posts. This way people can skim the same post to see as the "problems" get deleted and only the solutions are presented.
I went to the wiki (thanks for the kick in the butt KPS) and noticed (mostly Ripster) has made dramatic changes and added a lot of shizz. There may be an answer in there or a direction. I want to solve this thing right away, so I'll try to spend time over the holiday doing what I can with the key caps, measurements, and mock-ups. After that, anything that is not resolved will involve contacting the massive GH database of users, WASD, other manufacturers to get the last couple pieces dialed in.
At that point the hope is that we can go to WASD with a Kinesis key cap order and just specify colors, legends, O-rings, etc.
When I was at WASD, dooling around with all the shapes and sizes, I didn't have time to try any color schemes :( Maybe just need to use a Photoshop or something...anyone wanna throw in on this?
Post by: fossala on Sun, 25 December 2011, 04:49:24
Post by: erw on Tue, 27 December 2011, 19:28:34
Quote from: input nirvana;477340
KEY ISSUE #1 (affects 6 keys-pinky keys)
(Attachment) 35890[/ATTACH]
The extreme right row, lower 3 pinky keys are R2/P4 1.25 which is the same profile as a "G" and "H" key. The replacement keys are about 1mm taller front skirt than the original Kinesis keys (which affects the slope). Note the 2 red arrows to show the slightly high key corners. The bottom key it's not an issue, the top key you may graze the high corner. This key may not be an issue\problem, I'm just trying to get the exact replacements as a first choice.
OPTION: Need R2 1.25 keys that have the actual same slope of key top. (HELP: you can compare with the "G" or "H" key, should be same exact top slope and height).
Are you using R1 1x1.25 as replacement? Or some R2 1x1.25 that is for some reason not the exact right size? Either way, doesn't all three of them have the high corners?
Post by: Input Nirvana on Tue, 27 December 2011, 21:51:39
Quote from: erw;478645
Are you using R1 1x1.25 as replacement? Or some R2 1x1.25 that is for some reason not the exact right size? Either way, doesn't all three of them have the high corners?
Good question.
Using R2 1x1.25. Keep in mind, some of the issue are the key itself, and some of the issue is it's relationship to adjoining keys. The reason the middle of the 3 keys does not have any mentionable difference is that the corners are "away" from home row finger movement, and the key above/below are higher, so it minimizes or negates the potential 'high corner' in that key position. Also since the key wells are formed, there are different angles at different spots that may maximize or minimize the issue.
Does that make sense?
EDIT- Maybe there is a different standard key that can go there...hmmm....need to look more and compare. And, I may be making a key mistake here and there, so that's why a little time and help is welcome! :)
EDIT---The 3 pinky keys have the same profile as the R1 key caps but are 1.25 wide. I assume these are R1 1x1.25 keys. I'm checking to see if there are R2 1x1.25 key available. If there are, I think this one issue disappears.
Post by: erw on Wed, 28 December 2011, 07:01:55
Quote from: input nirvana;478738
EDIT---The 3 pinky keys have the same profile as the R1 key caps but are 1.25 wide. I assume these are R1 1x1.25 keys. I'm checking to see if there are R2 1x1.25 key available. If there are, I think this one issue disappears.
I'm still confused.. They should be R1, therefore you're looking for... R2?
When I ordered from WASD recently, the only 1x1.25 key available (in individual keys, at least) was R1 so I'm surprised you got an R2. Either way, I'll report on using three WASD R1 1x1.25 as the pinky keys when I receive them.
Post by: erw on Wed, 28 December 2011, 07:55:02
Quote from: input nirvana;477340
WASD Keyboards has the following colors, laser, etching available (if not more that I don't know about):
(Attachment) 35912[/ATTACH]
And keys can always be Rit Dyed for more combinations like purple, pink, safari stripes or camo.
Having just spent hours reading the Rit dye thread, I wonder: Are WASD keys PBT and not ABS such that they can be dyed without melting?
Post by: fossala on Wed, 28 December 2011, 07:55:50
Post by: Input Nirvana on Wed, 28 December 2011, 12:07:10
Quote from: erw;478884
I'm still confused.. They should be R1, therefore you're looking for... R2?
When I ordered from WASD recently, the only 1x1.25 key available (in individual keys, at least) was R1 so I'm surprised you got an R2. Either way, I'll report on using three WASD R1 1x1.25 as the pinky keys when I receive them.
DANG! I'm getting confused. The WASD keys that I used to replace the Kinesis keys R1 1x1.25. I don't think there are R2 1x1.25. The existing Kinesis keys match an R2 1x1 profile, so it seems that we want R2 1x1.25 keys.
Please remember I keep going back to post #83 and fine tuning, correcting, clarifying, updating.
Post by: Input Nirvana on Thu, 29 December 2011, 03:27:53
KEYBOARDING RESULTS:
Key issue #1-No problems and can't tell a difference.
Key issue #2-No problems but I can tell a difference. These two keys are very low use, so I'm going to say that the difference is negligible.
Key issue #3-No problems, I am currently using the R2 and am used to it.
Key issue #4-This I have not had the time to address :(
Post by: erw on Thu, 29 December 2011, 19:22:54
Btw, what does a full standard replacement set from Kinesis cost?
Post by: sordna on Thu, 29 December 2011, 20:33:14
Quote from: erw;479874
Sounds good!
Btw, what does a full standard replacement set from Kinesis cost?
$35 for standard keycaps and $39 for the dual legend (qwerty/dvorak ones). Both come in black or white. That's what they quoted me early August. At that time I learned they even have black dual legend keycaps (for some reason I had thought the dvorak caps only came in white).
Post by: fossala on Fri, 30 December 2011, 04:19:17
Quote from: sordna;479930
$35 for standard keycaps and $39 for the dual legend (qwerty/dvorak ones). Both come in black or white. That's what they quoted me early August. At that time I learned they even have black dual legend keycaps (for some reason I had thought the dvorak caps only came in white).
The dual legend ones are ugly, I type in dvorak and would prefer qwerty than dual. I wish they would sell me some blank ones, that would make me happy.
Post by: sordna on Fri, 30 December 2011, 11:23:10
Post by: Input Nirvana on Fri, 30 December 2011, 12:08:14
Post by: Input Nirvana on Fri, 30 December 2011, 12:35:37
Post by: erw on Fri, 30 December 2011, 20:33:29
[ATTACH=CONFIG]36299[/ATTACH]
[ATTACH=CONFIG]36300[/ATTACH]
[ATTACH=CONFIG]36301[/ATTACH]
I have tried the new keys on the various pinky key locations (key issues 1 & 2). Using an R1 as shift is fine. Using another key on the NUM row (I tried an original shift (R2)) is no problem for me, since I float to get up there anyway. The different slopes of the two middle pinky keys (caps lock and tab) are a bit more noticeable. I'd like to have the true R2s, but if it's not possible, it's not possible.
I'll get around to issues 3 & 4 in the new year.. :-)
Post by: sordna on Sat, 31 December 2011, 00:47:39
Post by: Input Nirvana on Sat, 31 December 2011, 03:27:39
I like the look :)
Post by: sordna on Sat, 31 December 2011, 04:21:01
But here's my thoughts on issue #2 (the + - top corner keys). Looking sideways at my original Kinesis keys, the + and - keys have a different angle than their neighbors on the same row (1 and 2). So using a flatter key would actually bring more consistency in that row, so the problem is not so much the slope, but the height. Keys in other rows are not tall enough to make good replacements. Sigh.
I wonder if WASDKeyboards can find Kinesis' supplier (or co-operate with Kinesis) and get blank Kinesis keysets to sell as is, or etched/engraved.
Post by: Input Nirvana on Sat, 31 December 2011, 10:51:54
Note 2 original Kinesis white keys (issue #1, #2) relative to red and orange keys.
(http://geekhack.org/webkit-fake-url://B4D6C857-5488-4920-BCDF-4B247C285AE0/imagejpeg)
Note 2 gray R2 keys and same red and orange keys.
(http://geekhack.org/webkit-fake-url://321D5C1D-EF4B-4AF6-8875-D15B8F338930/imagejpeg)
Post by: erw on Sun, 01 January 2012, 09:39:28
Quote from: input nirvana;477340
KEY ISSUE #4 (affects 4 keys-thumb cluster single keys)
The two keys at the top of the cluster are very tall (see P1 on KPS chart). The slope is not a problem, it's available, but not in a key of that dramatic height. I'm working on changing some other key heights for a work around. Since we didn't have any of the 2 highest keys, I'm playing with adjusting all three key heights. In the pictures above, you can see the original Kinesis keys with legends, and the 2 lower keys that are the appropriate keys for those positions (red and grey keys). What I've done to keep the staggered height, is to remove the highest keys and move the keys "up" a spot to see if it will all work together. There are a couple ways to do this, and I'm looking for what's best.
(Attachment) 35883[/ATTACH] (Attachment) 35885[/ATTACH]
I have tried moving the keys up and putting an R1 in the "hole" as in your second picture. It does not look like a big difference, but it feels big. I can no longer hit a "stair" key without also hitting the one below it, or having to twist my thumb in an uncomfortable manner. The modifier above Enter also requires an uncomfortable twist of the thumb.
I would not use these replacements. I think we really need the tall keys, unfortunately. I also guess Kinesis would only have used these apparently non-standard keys if they were necessary.
Post by: Input Nirvana on Sun, 01 January 2012, 10:19:08
The profile of the 4 keys is available, the height is the problem.
Time to consider options.
Post by: fossala on Sun, 01 January 2012, 10:21:06
It's in USA and has the grey spherical keys.
Post by: dorkvader on Sun, 01 January 2012, 11:20:12
Quote from: input nirvana;481414
100% agree. I replaced the original keys last night, noted the feel and swapped with replacements this morning...not satisfied with the downgraded experience. :(Can you source "row5" keycaps like on the Race? They look a bit taller.
The profile of the 4 keys is available, the height is the problem.
Time to consider options.
Here's the picture I was thinking of:
[ATTACH=CONFIG]26598[/ATTACH]
Also, something looks off about the right enter key on that kinesis on ebay. It might just be me, though.
Post by: erw on Sun, 01 January 2012, 17:51:49
Quote from: dorkvader;481446
Also, something looks off about the right enter key on that kinesis on ebay. It might just be me, though.
Totally off. Wtf.
About key issue 3, the home keys, I have placed my old arrow keys in my right hand home row instead of the spherical keys. Even though they're R1, they're pretty easy to use. But I think they should be replaced by R3. It seems to make for the smoothest curve.
I really thought I'd miss the spherical form that cradles your fingertips, but the standard cylindrical shape is not too bad. And it looks kind of refreshing to not have blue home keys, btw:
[ATTACH=CONFIG]36430[/ATTACH]
Post by: Input Nirvana on Tue, 03 January 2012, 03:02:41
Post by: erw on Tue, 03 January 2012, 09:43:39
But when I get home from uni today, I'll swap some R3's from the other side of the board and see how "unconscious" I can make it :-)
Post by: erw on Tue, 03 January 2012, 13:51:15
But having actually tried all three options now, I'm gonna go with R2 as the winner. I can't decide on who gets second place but it would probably be R1.
Post by: Input Nirvana on Tue, 03 January 2012, 17:40:37
Quote from: erw;482488
I should guess less and test more. R3s as home keys just do not feel right. It's weird that such small differences mean so much for the fingers. Changing them around makes me feel all not-at-home at my keyboard.
But having actually tried all three options now, I'm gonna go with R2 as the winner. I can't decide on who gets second place but it would probably be R1.
AH-HA!!! I thought so! R2, even though it seems the flattest profile would be best since the sphericals are 'flat'. I'm glad someone else came to that SAME EXACT conclusion. Erw, you make a GREAT guinea pig. Thanks for playing :) We get a third person to concur, and I'll close that chapter for good.
INPUT NIRVANA GOING OUT ON A LIMB: I like the home row sphericals, but am now wondering if they are a 'compromise key cap'?
We're knocking down these key issues one by one....almost there!
Post by: erw on Wed, 04 January 2012, 13:00:39
I'm still typing with my left hand home keys as R1 and my right hand home keys as R2 and the rest of the board is a mess :-P
What do you mean by "compromise key cap"?
Post by: Input Nirvana on Wed, 04 January 2012, 17:51:26
That is my head working overtime on a key cap.
Post by: erw on Wed, 04 January 2012, 18:17:58
Quote from: input nirvana;477340
For the right hand keywell/thumb cluster the "SPACE" key is an 'enter' key on a num pad. The "ENTER" key is a '+' key on a num pad.
Do normal num pad plus keys have a sideways slope?
And what about the left hand delete key?
Post by: kps on Wed, 04 January 2012, 20:53:12
Quote from: erw;483426
Do normal num pad plus keys have a sideways slope?
No, the Space and BackSpace keys don't have a sideways slope; they are the same as a number pad Enter in the source profile.
Quote
And what about the left hand delete key?
The Delete and Enter keys, the sideways-sloping ones, are modifier-row keys turned on their sides.
Post by: Input Nirvana on Thu, 05 January 2012, 01:50:23
Post by: erw on Thu, 05 January 2012, 05:16:35
Quote from: kps;483502
The Delete and Enter keys, the sideways-sloping ones, are modifier-row keys turned on their sides.
Ok, so they're not num pad plus keys, they're modifiers. That clears it up.
Post by: erw on Sun, 08 January 2012, 10:26:10
So anyway, how are we doing with the tall modifiers?
Post by: Input Nirvana on Mon, 09 January 2012, 11:08:09
No info in wiki? I looked but may have missed.
If everything fails, I will make a bunch this summer. (see GH thread on making key caps)
Post by: dorkvader on Mon, 09 January 2012, 22:07:03
Quote from: input nirvana;486630
If everything fails, I will make a bunch this summer. (see GH thread on making key caps)I wonder if we can contact vortex (if that really is their name: wasn't it KBT or something before?) directly about where they got the row5 keycaps for the race?. Also, you'll be the clack factory of kinesis!
Post by: Input Nirvana on Tue, 10 January 2012, 01:37:16
Post by: boli on Mon, 16 January 2012, 11:40:13
Quote from: input nirvana;482220
R1, R2, and R3.... Comparing the 3 of these for the home row, can you please rate in order of preference and why?
Quote from: input nirvana;482705
We get a third person to concur, and I'll close that chapter for good.
Hey guys
Since I currently have 3 Kinesis boards I thought I should give this a try, especially since there are very few regular width R2(=P4) keys on each keyboard. Namely the G and H keys (in QWERTY speak); I did not notice that the End and PageDown key would have worked as well.
I used this P# to R# mapping (http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=35910&d=1324803815) and this P# reference (http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=35911&d=1324805031)
Anyway, so I removed all spherical keys on my work keyboard, and put the flat R3(=P3) keys on the right hand side instead, that is I put the UIOP (in QWERTY speak) keys from my home keyboard there. They worked well, and provided the smoothest transition from top row to home row. Due to the different slope than the adjacent keys (caps lock, G, H and ') there is a slight "hitch" when moving to either of those 4 adjacent keys - nothing to worry about though.
On the left hand I started off with R1(=P5) keys, those with the steepest slope, I just used ZXCV keys from my home keyboard for this. It was entirely usable, but the right hand side felt slightly better. Due to the steep slope there were noticeable differences in both vertical and horizontal transition.
Then I replaced the left hand with the less sloped R2(=P4) keys, that is to say I put the G and H keys from two other Kinesis boards there (as mentioned above I overlooked End and PageDown until a few minutes ago). These keys worked very well too, providing a seamless horizontal transition, and the same small but noticeable hitch between home<->top and home<->bottom.
So, my order of preference is as well: R2 > R3 >> R1. R1 are too steep. R2 and R3 both worked well for me, I'd be happy with either, however the R2 are better integrated horizontally (meaning seamless transition to caps lock, G, H or '), and do provide a noticeable difference to the top row - which means it's easier to feel when you're in the home row.
Hope this helped. :)
Post by: Input Nirvana on Mon, 16 January 2012, 15:08:54
So you're saying the sphericals are definitely better, but R2 is almost as good and is acceptable?
I am committed to:
1) getting us exact non-legended Kinesis keycaps
2) a reasonable compromise on a few of the difficult sourcing/pricey keycaps so we can get from WASD Keyboards
The goal is for custom colors, legends, engraving/etching.
Any further info you guys... :)
Post by: nodnerb on Mon, 16 January 2012, 15:38:10
(Cheapest option to get a contoured keyboard to Australia that I've ever seen.)
The enter key was crooked enough that it interfered with the space key. I've replaced that key with a lasered grey numpad Enter key from a Cherry G80 board. Works fine but looks a little ghetto.
It's taking me a little while to get used to the keyboard coming from a Goldtouch but it's a challenge I am enjoying.
Post by: erw on Mon, 16 January 2012, 15:57:57
Quote from: input nirvana;491830
So you're saying the sphericals are definitely better, but R2 is almost as good and is acceptable?
It's just me, but I think I prefer R2 over sphericals.
Quote from: input nirvana;491830
The goal is for custom colors, legends, engraving/etching.
Oh my. I can't really decide if I'd want blank or Colemak caps. I'm a bit worried I'll order both when it is possible :-P
Quote from: nodnerb;491854
It's taking me a little while to get used to the keyboard coming from a Goldtouch but it's a challenge I am enjoying.
It took me two months to get used to the Advantage, so don't worry if you're not used to it within a few days like other people. But as long as you're enjoying it :-D
Post by: boli on Mon, 16 January 2012, 17:47:40
Quote from: input nirvana;491830
So you're saying the sphericals are definitely better, but R2 is almost as good and is acceptable?
I haven't had a go with sphericals on one side and flats on the other side actually (might give it a whirl tomorrow at work), but even so the R2s (and even R3s) felt good enough to be a decent replacement for the sphericals. The spherical's sole point seems to be to mark the home position both visually and tactilely, and I guess either of these things can be had with replacements. Personally I'm not sure the home position needs to be marked, as the hands kind of move into the proper position automatically by now.
Quote from: erw;491875
Oh my. I can't really decide if I'd want blank or Colemak caps. I'm a bit worried I'll order both when it is possible :-P
Good question. I guess if a set isn't too expensive why not. :)
***
Anyway, it looks like 3 of the 4 key issues with WASD replacements are resolved (using replacements with tolerable compromise), and only issue #4 remains, which means that we can already replace all but 4 keys on a Kinesis board, that's great!
Then there's the second option of ordering 1000+ custom key caps from Kinesis, which I guess would have to be blank to be acceptable (but likely not ideal) for most. 1000 is quite a few, at 68 keys per full set that would have to be at least 15 sets. I'd probably buy 2 such blank sets and get a few colored key caps from WASD to spice it up.
And there's the 3rd option SP, which someone mentioned way earlier on page 3 with if you want PBT blank just ask signature plastic, it would not be too expensive, but I'm not sure if it would be an exact replacement - given the work kps and IN put into it I doubt the SP solution would be perfect (unless they supply Kinesis). Not sure if anyone ever asked SP.
Post by: Input Nirvana on Mon, 16 January 2012, 20:30:44
I think Dorkvader suggested a possible 'tall key' replacement from the RACE keyboard, I don't know if anyone has taken a close look, or looked elsewhere for possible replacements.
Again, someone could call Kinesis and beg Rick for some info on this situation...I have a feeling they won't say their source, many places won't, but it could be helpful anyhow. If blank white keys were purchased, they could be Rit Dyed.
Post by: dorkvader on Mon, 16 January 2012, 21:50:49
Quote from: input nirvana;492089
I contacted SP a couple years ago and they said they 'used to' supply Kinesis keys, but they away the molds. Who does that? And I believe they must have supplied the doubleshots after comparing at WASD Keyboards.I read you have to be careful with RIT dye on ABS because of the heat. That said, PBT kinesis keys in any colour wound be amazing.
I think Dorkvader suggested a possible 'tall key' replacement from the RACE keyboard, I don't know if anyone has taken a close look, or looked elsewhere for possible replacements.
Again, someone could call Kinesis and beg Rick for some info on this situation...I have a feeling they won't say their source, many places won't, but it could be helpful anyhow. If blank white keys were purchased, they could be Rit Dyed.
Post by: Input Nirvana on Tue, 17 January 2012, 00:43:34
Quote from: dorkvader;492137
I read you have to be careful with RIT dye on ABS because of the heat. That said, PBT kinesis keys in any colour wound be amazing.
A higher quality key cap is well-deserved by the Kinesis board. If we can't get the blanks from Kinesis or the manufacturer, we'll just continue with our 'matching up' quest. I assume even the possibility of blanks would probably be only black or white, but I may be wrong. Then again, most keys seem to be standard keys with only a few possible real 'Kinesis Custom Keys'.
Post by: boli on Tue, 17 January 2012, 02:18:27
So, interest check:
Who of you Kinesis owners would buy blank original Kinesis key cap sets, and if so how many?
I'd take at least 2 sets, maybe 3.
Post by: erw on Tue, 17 January 2012, 06:39:03
Can't WASD just buy a 1000 modifiers from them? :-)
Post by: Architect on Tue, 17 January 2012, 08:29:16
Too bad, some years ago I threw out a number of old Advantages because they were so old and worn out (not mine - other engineers who left the company). But then again I'm not sure I'd want to keep some old nasty keycaps, too much bad joo-joo.
Post by: kps on Tue, 17 January 2012, 08:50:28
Post by: Input Nirvana on Tue, 17 January 2012, 09:01:06
-Would like to get the sphericals black or white (not just blue) as well.
-Ultimately we (or WASD) MAY need to source these things :(
-I really like Dorkvaders thoughts on PBT keys as well.
WASD Keyboards may be the best/easiest way to get blanks from/through Kinesis. Disclaimer: For several reasons, at this point, I would like/prefer WASD to handle a minimum order/group buy:
1) it just makes sense
2) it will be easier overall, he is set up for it
3) custom legends for all you wacky Colemak users (oops, did I type that out loud on my Colemak layout?)
4) he can stock for easy future purchases
5) has a great track record
6) There is no one else I would rather do business with regarding key caps.
7) I think I owe him money. I should really check on that. No one likes a deadbeat.
***I'll go to the OP and update the info later today on what has been discussed.***
I definitely want at least 1 blank set, probably more. I was going to do Ripsters sandblast mod to blank out the existing keys, but the plastic is so thin, you really can't blast too much or it's a very bad thing.
FUNNY-ISH STORY:
The first few times I called Rick, admittedly, I asked a lot of *&%@ questions. When I would call I could almost hear Rick "Oh, it's YOU again :(". Now, a couple years later, my questions are much better, and I think I've offered a thing or two back, so it more like "Oh, it's YOU again :)"
The reason I mention this? Imagine working a keyboard company, especially Kinesis. You KNOW there is some crazy stupid stuff coming in on the phone line. As silly as it sounds, I bet the guy goes home to his girlfriend, puts his head on her lap, covers his eyes and says "You can't believe what someone called and asked me. Why would someone want to hook up a keyboard to a car battery?" Poor Rick, go easy on him.
Post by: Architect on Tue, 17 January 2012, 09:08:12
Post by: Input Nirvana on Tue, 17 January 2012, 10:06:05
Quote from: Architect;492407
Never talked directly to him but I've been emailing Rick for years about various Kinesis things.
I'm sure you've asked some crazy **** too (car batteries and such) so I don't feel too bad for being the source of his massive drinking problem.
Post by: erw on Tue, 17 January 2012, 15:45:35
Quote from: input nirvana;492400
Imagine working a keyboard company, especially Kinesis. You KNOW there is some crazy stupid stuff coming in on the phone line. As silly as it sounds, I bet the guy goes home to his girlfriend, puts his head on her lap, covers his eyes and says "You can't believe what someone called and asked me. Why would someone want to hook up a keyboard to a car battery?" Poor Rick, go easy on him.
Hahaha, epic! :-)
I almost feel bad about asking, but why would someone want to hook up a keyboard to a car battery? :-P
Post by: dorkvader on Tue, 17 January 2012, 18:20:58
Quote from: erw;492784
Hahaha, epic! :-)Why wouldn't they?
I almost feel bad about asking, but why would someone want to hook up a keyboard to a car battery? :-P
You can test the protection circuitry! Or plug it into the voltage regulator for added power of the chips (though this would likely cause the VR to heat up too much) etc.
I dunno: everytime someone asks that question, I feel obligated to come up with an anwser. Must be the engineer in me.
Post by: Input Nirvana on Tue, 17 January 2012, 18:23:23
"Because you can."
Post by: sordna on Tue, 17 January 2012, 18:24:57
EDIT: My older Kinesis #110 has been shipped and started its journey. (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?26055-Kinesis-Contoured-Try-amp-Forward) Enjoy trying out the rare doubleshot keycaps it has, since we're discussing keycaps here...
Post by: Input Nirvana on Tue, 17 January 2012, 19:53:19
Post by: boli on Wed, 18 January 2012, 01:52:43
Quote
I just double checked and unfortunately it's 1,000 sets, not 1,000 total keycaps.
I then asked about the manufacturer, we'll see.
Post by: boli on Wed, 25 January 2012, 12:07:36
Anyway, we can replace all but the 4 tall thumb cluster keys, and I would like to do so. I did notice something though.
@IN: question about the replacements: you replaced both the P5 and P6 keys with R1 keys, even though P5 and P6 have a slightly different slope. Is the replacement really just one key type? (Edit: Yes they are; I'm an idiot for asking and could have checked out my own keyboard right away)
Assuming the above replacement is acceptable the total order for one Advantage without 4 tall thumb keys would be:
- 10 NUM (1w)
- 12 R3 (1w)
- 12 R2 (1w)
- 18 R1 (1w)
- 8 R1 (1.25w)
- 2 NUM_PAD_+ (2w)
- 2 NUM_PAD_ENTER (2w)
1w means width of one, 1.25w means width of 1.25, 2w means width of 2.
Update: More questions as I'm ordering. :)
Quote from: input nirvana;477340
For the right hand keywell/thumb cluster the "SPACE" key is an 'enter' key on a num pad. The "ENTER" key is a '+' key on a num pad. The 10 Black and blue keys with legends in this picture are original Kinesis key caps that don't have an exact replacement (yet). At this stage, everything is as original, no changes.
Are you sure about the Kinesis-ENTER key cap being the same as a WASD-Numpad "+" (http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/index.php/products/individual-blank-keycaps/numpad-plus-cherry-mx-keycap.html)? It doesn't look right. WASD-R1 1x2 (http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/index.php/products/individual-blank-keycaps/row-1-size-1x2-00-cherry-mx-keycap.html) looks like a much better fit.
I do agree on the Kinesis-Space/Backspace, it does look like the WASD-Numpad "Enter" (http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/index.php/products/individual-blank-keycaps/numpad-enter-cherry-mx-keycap.html)
Post by: boli on Wed, 25 January 2012, 12:38:33
Quote from: input nirvana;477340
For the right hand keywell/thumb cluster the "SPACE" key is an 'enter' key on a num pad. The "ENTER" key is a '+' key on a num pad. The 10 Black and blue keys with legends in this picture are original Kinesis key caps that don't have an exact replacement (yet). At this stage, everything is as original, no changes.
Are you sure about the Kinesis-ENTER key cap being the same as a WASD-Numpad "+" (http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/index.php/products/individual-blank-keycaps/numpad-plus-cherry-mx-keycap.html)? It doesn't look right.
I do agree on the Kinesis-Space/Backspace, it does look like the WASD-Numpad "Enter" (http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/index.php/products/individual-blank-keycaps/numpad-enter-cherry-mx-keycap.html)
Post by: kps on Wed, 25 January 2012, 12:56:08
Post by: boli on Wed, 25 January 2012, 13:06:06
I'm not going to mess around with the tall thumb keys at all, because these as well as the Home key (serves as Ctrl for me) are crucial for me.
So I just ordered a full set of dark grey blank key caps, with the option of black thumb keys, because I plan to leave the 4 tall keys in place, so they'll stay black; also I think the Delete/Enter key replacements won't have the correct shape so I might leave those as well (looking forward to IN's answer to questions above). I threw in an optional orange WASD cluster (though for me (http://homepage.mac.com/boli/ars/80329_kinesis_colemak_small.png) it will be FRST), as well as optional orange home keys. I also ordered extra pairs of the 1.25 wide keys in various colors to play around with, and a set of 40A o-rings.
Damn you GH, making me spend $138 ($10 is international slow shipping) plus VAT/customs... :P
Post by: Input Nirvana on Wed, 25 January 2012, 13:52:16
Quote from: boli;498732
No reply from Kinesis.
Anyway, we can replace all but the 4 tall thumb cluster keys, and I would like to do so. I did notice something though.
@IN: question about the replacements: you replaced both the P5 and P6 keys with R1 keys, even though P5 and P6 have a slightly different slope. Is the replacement really just one key type?
Assuming the above replacement is acceptable the total order for one Advantage without 4 tall thumb keys would be:1w means width of one, 1.25w means width of 1.25, 2w means width of 2.
- 10 NUM (1w)
- 12 R3 (1w)
- 12 R2 (1w)
- 18 R1 (1w)
- 8 R1 (1.25w)
- 2 NUM_PAD_+ (2w)
- 2 NUM_PAD_ENTER (2w)
Update: More questions as I'm ordering. :)
Are you sure about the Kinesis-ENTER key cap being the same as a WASD-Numpad "+" (http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/index.php/products/individual-blank-keycaps/numpad-plus-cherry-mx-keycap.html)? It doesn't look right. WASD-R1 1x2 (http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/index.php/products/individual-blank-keycaps/row-1-size-1x2-00-cherry-mx-keycap.html) looks like a much better fit.
I do agree on the Kinesis-Space/Backspace, it does look like the WASD-Numpad "Enter" (http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/index.php/products/individual-blank-keycaps/numpad-enter-cherry-mx-keycap.html)
NOOOOOOOOOO!!!! I made a mistake with all the keys in front of me. The ENTER key is an R1 1x2 key!!!!!!!
On the later Advantage, the P5 and P6 key caps are the same, and it works just fine that way, so the single replacement is just fine as well.
Follow up with Rick.
Quote from: kps;498785
I spent a week with num-row keys in place of the tall thumb keys. To compensate for the height difference, I replaced Delete and Enter with numpad-enter keys (i.e. like BackSpace and Space) and that worked well. I also replaced Home and PageUp with the next shorter keys, and that did not work so well — it was fine for the modifier, but made Home and PageUp harder to press.
Digesting this. But I'm thinking the only real answer is the 4 tall key caps regardless. The whole thumb cluster needs to work together, so it all works, or it all doesn't work, yes?
Quote from: boli;498791
Cheers for the update kps.
I'm not going to mess around with the tall thumb keys at all, because these as well as the Home key (serves as Ctrl for me) are crucial for me.
So I just ordered a full set of dark grey blank key caps, with the option of black thumb keys, because I plan to leave the 4 tall keys in place, so they'll stay black; also I think the Delete/Enter key replacements won't have the correct shape so I might leave those as well (looking forward to IN's answer to questions above). I threw in an optional orange WASD cluster (though for me (http://homepage.mac.com/boli/ars/80329_kinesis_colemak_small.png) it will be FRST), as well as optional orange home keys. I also ordered extra pairs of the 1.25 wide keys in various colors to play around with, and a set of 40A o-rings.
Damn you GH, making me spend $138 ($10 is international slow shipping) plus VAT/customs... :P
Make the ENTER, DELETE key cap correction!!!!!!!
*** I need to review this info tonight/tomorrow and make updates to the "INFO" post****
Post by: Input Nirvana on Wed, 25 January 2012, 13:59:51
Post by: boli on Wed, 25 January 2012, 14:06:28
We'll see what they answer, if they can't change it no biggie (the R1 2x1 key costs more than the Numpad key too), I might leave the thumb cluster alone anyway (because of the tall keys), and this will probably not be my last order at WASD either.
Post by: Input Nirvana on Wed, 25 January 2012, 14:10:40
If you get stuck with wrong keys, I'll take care of it. I don't want that hanging over my head :(
EDIT---- I am totally committed to the exact replacements. If we don't find the tall keys in the next 2 months or so, I will make keys caps (see GH thread on this). There aren't that many of us that need this, so once I can get it right, I can pump out a couple dozen easy enough.
I finish my project in March, and will be home and have the time to do this at that time.
Post by: boli on Wed, 25 January 2012, 14:15:13
Quote from: input nirvana;498851
When did you order? I need to be more careful :(
If you get stuck with wrong keys, I'll take care of it. I don't want that hanging over my head :(
The confirmation mail says 19:55, that's 10:55 am PST I think. But seriously don't worry about it, not your fault, I could have waited - but I was so eager. Only after ordering did I spend more time looking at the fotos and my own keyboard and noticed that R1 1x2 looks much better. :)
Post by: Input Nirvana on Wed, 25 January 2012, 14:25:34
Quote from: boli;498859
The confirmation mail says 19:55, that's 10:55 am PST I think. But seriously don't worry about it, not your fault, I could have waited - but I was so eager. Only after ordering did I spend more time looking at the fotos and my own keyboard and noticed that R1 1x2 looks much better. :)
Boli:
Spoke to Weyman, the change will be made to the R1 1x2 keys.
We, as a group, need to put together the info for WASD and he will create a Kinesis 'set' we can order at the drop of a hat, at a good price point with the usual available options.
*just need those damn tall keys!!*
Post by: boli on Wed, 25 January 2012, 14:29:46
Quote from: input nirvana;498870
Boli:
Spoke to Weyman, the change will be made to the R1 1x2 keys.
We, as a group, need to put together the info for WASD and he will create a Kinesis 'set' we can order at the drop of a hat, at a good price point with the usual available options.
*just those damn tall keys!!*
Thanks a bunch IN! They haven't replied to my mail yet, I wonder how I can pay the extra dollar (the R1 1x2 cost $1.25 vs the Numpad+ $1, and I ordered 2 black 2 dark gray).
As for the info, this is it for a Kinesis set without the 4 tall thumb keys:
- 10 R4 (1w)
- 12 R3 (1w)
- 12 R2 (1w)
- 18 R1 (1w)
- 8 R1 (1.25w)
- 2 R1 1x2 (2w)
- 2 NumpadEnter (2w)
BTW this set costs $66.50 normally (blank, dunno about engraving cost).
Post by: Input Nirvana on Wed, 25 January 2012, 15:00:59
All those colored keys in the pics I have to figure this out and swap/try profiles with are on loan, gratis, or toss aways from WASD to the cause. I tried to pay him a retainer to keep it easy, but he told me to leave. I think I wore him out. :) Joking, he's a great guy.
EDIT---Just added the Boli key cap list to the end of the *INFO* post #83. The entire post will be cleaned up and modified today/tomorrow.
Post by: kps on Wed, 25 January 2012, 15:50:40
Quote from: input nirvana;498834
Digesting this. But I'm thinking the only real answer is the 4 tall key caps regardless. The whole thumb cluster needs to work together, so it all works, or it all doesn't work, yes?
Yes, I agree. I wonder if there's a possibility of getting num-profile keys with a longer stem — SP offers their MX keys with several different stem lengths, so perhaps WASD's supplier does likewise.
Post by: sordna on Wed, 25 January 2012, 15:59:12
Post by: boli on Wed, 25 January 2012, 16:33:40
Quote from: input nirvana;498890
What was the method of payment? If there's an issue, I'll spot you the $1 USD, with interest, compounded hourly, minimum 90 day terms. I'll need collateral, preferably a Kinesis keyboard, but almost anything will do. lol
All those colored keys in the pics I have to figure this out and swap/try profiles with are on loan, gratis, or toss aways from WASD to the cause.
I Paid by paypal and could do so again np. :)
They haven't replied to my mail yet, but I'm sure it will be OK. Happy to get the right keys in any case. And sweet of WASD to throw in your test keys. :)
Now let's see if any suitable tall thumb keys can be found to complete the set. I guess any tall key might serve as long as the (possibly different) slant isn't uncomfortable.
Also we probably all got 2 extras of those keys with our Kinesis boards to account for the various OSs, so one could use them to try "blanking" them. Maybe then they would fit nicely with the other blank black WASD thumb cluster keys.
Post by: Input Nirvana on Thu, 26 January 2012, 11:31:36
Post by: boli on Thu, 26 January 2012, 14:06:32
Quote from: input nirvana;499622
There are a couple methods to 'blank' a key, depending on how the legend is applied. It's kind of a drag no matter what :(
As long as they're not doubleshots it can't be too bad, can it? :P
Post by: Input Nirvana on Thu, 26 January 2012, 15:20:12
That's no fun.
Post by: boli on Thu, 26 January 2012, 16:46:17
BTW Weyman replied to my mail, it's all OK and shipping today! \o/
Of course I couldn't help asking about the tall thumb cluster keys, which got me rambling, so I more or less summarized the results of this thread into the mail. I hope he doesn't miss the question in that wall of text. ;)
I'm looking forward to the new key caps and o-rings, lots of stuff to play around with. I'm also wondering how well the replacement 1.25 keys will work, particularly the top left and right corner ones. The WASD replacements of those seem to be the most different from the Kinesis originals (not counting the tall thumb keys, which seem irreplaceable for now).
Post by: boli on Thu, 26 January 2012, 17:24:41
@Input Nirvana: While I replied to Weyman I started wondering: have you tried the R1 1.25 keys for the top left/right corners both ways? If used the wrong way the slant would be more like the original, however the height would be lower.
Post by: sordna on Thu, 26 January 2012, 17:33:58
Post by: Input Nirvana on Thu, 26 January 2012, 18:33:29
Quote from: boli;500017
Quick reply from WASD, doesn't look good for the tall thumb keys. He says his supplier won't have them as they're too unique, having them made (requires new tooling etc.) wouldn't be economical given the likely rather low demand, and the same applies for having them sourced by Kinesis's supplier, hundreds/thousands of keys in various colors for just 4 keys in each set... so we're stuck with the originals for now.
@Input Nirvana: While I replied to Weyman I started wondering: have you tried the R1 1.25 keys for the top left/right corners both ways? If used the wrong way the slant would be more like the original, however the height would be lower.
Yes, turned the existing key around and the 3 lower keys around, it was not good, the key rubbed. Double check this, I've been making a lot of mistakes lately :)
Yes, when Weyman saw the tall keys, he became exasperated "Where are THESE from???" lol
Quote from: sordna;500026
You could always mod keys, cut off stems from donor keys and glue them on keycaps that you want to make taller (making their stems extra long).
Quite a few people have done this, it must work well. It sure seems to me it wouldn't though. Need to check the slant of the 4 keys first, then determine the height adjustment. Someone else needs to go first. My confidence is low. I'd rather make keys from molds and have more options. Oh yea, I'm gonna do that with my first spare $100 and 2 free days :)
Post by: erw on Sun, 29 January 2012, 15:01:12
Quote from: input nirvana;500091
Quite a few people have done this, it must work well. It sure seems to me it wouldn't though. Need to check the slant of the 4 keys first, then determine the height adjustment. Someone else needs to go first. My confidence is low. I'd rather make keys from molds and have more options. Oh yea, I'm gonna do that with my first spare $100 and 2 free days :)
I don't think any of the keys have the same slope as the modifiers. The closest I think you can get is an R2 turned upside down. This will stick out in most places, but it might actually work at the that exact location above delete or enter if the stem was extended. Anyway, I think a NUM key is close enough but I plan to test this.
I have liberated a stem from a spare key, but what is a good way to affix it to a NUM key? Will hot glue be strong enough? Btw, my spare stem is 7.5 mm and a NUM key needs about 3.0 mm extra to match the modifier height.
Post by: kps on Mon, 30 January 2012, 08:44:36
Quote from: erw;502524
I have liberated a stem from a spare key, but what is a good way to affix it to a NUM key? Will hot glue be strong enough? Btw, my spare stem is 7.5 mm and a NUM key needs about 3.0 mm extra to match the modifier height.
Assuming both are ABS, I would use ABS cement (which is really a solvent weld). Look in the plumbing section of your local hardware store.
Post by: Input Nirvana on Mon, 30 January 2012, 10:19:32
The ABS solvent (ever see the purple stains around white, plastic (ABS) pipes? Or 2 part epoxies from hardware stores (in little matching toothpaste-like tubes).
If you have never used any of these glues, you'll want to sample-glue something to get a feel for the 'working time'.
Post by: kps on Mon, 30 January 2012, 11:06:06
Quote from: input nirvana;503181
Not always about sheer strength.
Or even shear strengh. :dance: (http://instantrimshot.com/classic/?sound=rimshot&play=true)
Post by: Input Nirvana on Mon, 30 January 2012, 17:46:03
Good one
Post by: erw on Mon, 30 January 2012, 18:07:16
Until I get to gluing, I have to actually get this stem cut down to 3 mm. It's pretty hard actually using only a cutting board and a sheath knife from when I was a boy scout :bowl:
It's so small!
.
.
.
The stem.
Not the knife.
Post by: erw on Mon, 30 January 2012, 18:32:16
Well, it's only a test. But I don't feel like doing this for four modifiers on each of my boards -_-
Post by: Input Nirvana on Mon, 30 January 2012, 19:39:11
Post by: erw on Tue, 31 January 2012, 08:36:25
Post by: sordna on Tue, 31 January 2012, 12:00:30
Quote from: boli;498872
Thanks a bunch IN! They haven't replied to my mail yet, I wonder how I can pay the extra dollar (the R1 1x2 cost $1.25 vs the Numpad+ $1, and I ordered 2 black 2 dark gray).
As for the info, this is it for a Kinesis set without the 4 tall thumb keys:
- 10 R4 (1w)
- 12 R3 (1w)
- 12 R2 (1w)
- 18 R1 (1w)
- 8 R1 (1.25w)
- 2 R1 1x2 (2w)
- 2 NumpadEnter (2w)
BTW this set costs $66.50 normally (blank, dunno about engraving cost).
You could possibly bring the price down by ordering an existing keycap set, perhaps an 87 key set at $36.99 and the individual missing keys. The 104 set is an especially good deal at $39.99.
Post by: erw on Tue, 31 January 2012, 12:17:19
Quote from: sordna;504277
You could possibly bring the price down by ordering an existing keycap set, perhaps an 87 key set at $36.99 and the individual missing keys. The 104 set is an especially good deal at $39.99.
I was kind of hoping there would be a Kinesis set with a similar price reduction compared to ordering single keys. Maybe we could get such a set even though it is not complete yet.
Btw, how slow/fast is wasd with replying to emails?
Post by: boli on Tue, 31 January 2012, 12:58:18
Quote from: erw;504304
I was kind of hoping there would be a Kinesis set with a similar price reduction compared to ordering single keys. Maybe we could get such a set even though it is not complete yet.
Btw, how slow/fast is wasd with replying to emails?
Got reply to my first the next day, the second in a few minutes.
I also asked if they'll make a semi complete set available if tests prove it's good enough, no reply yet. He did reply thoroughly to other stuff... will ask again when/if I'm happy with the key caps. :)
Post by: sordna on Tue, 31 January 2012, 13:06:08
Post by: boli on Wed, 01 February 2012, 07:35:15
[ATTACH=CONFIG]39217[/ATTACH]
Applied a few o-rings to the right home row keys to compare feeling to the unmodded left side, and one to the backspace thumb key. The shorter travel feels weird ATM, let's see what happens once I'm used to it - previously I thought I'd really like shorter travel, we'll see if my expectations were correct. Noise is about the same unless bottoming out, which at work often happens with thumb keys, probably less with the others.
Some sad news:
While the invoice looks as if they exchanged the wrong keys I ordered...
[ATTACH=CONFIG]39218[/ATTACH]
...the actual keys were not replaced. :(
[ATTACH=CONFIG]39219[/ATTACH]
Keys on the left are the correct ones, those on the right are not (as you can see when looking at the Kinesis originals). R1 1x2 should look like this (http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/index.php/products/individual-blank-keycaps/row-1-size-1x2-00-cherry-mx-keycap.html).
Post by: kps on Wed, 01 February 2012, 09:33:19
Quote from: boli;505151
...the actual keys were not replaced. :(Unfortunate, but I doubt it will be a problem in practice. I spent a week with all num-enter and the difference was essentially unnoticable.
Post by: sordna on Wed, 01 February 2012, 10:30:40
Post by: boli on Wed, 01 February 2012, 16:12:51
Quote from: sordna;505283
He got numpad-plus, which when used as Delete/Enter make it hard to press Home/End/PgUp/PgDown without interfering, I just tried it.
Exactly. I don't use those keys too much so it could be acceptable for now. Edit: except the Ctrl key. :( (Home on default Kinesis. Check out my custom layout in sig for reference)
Update: Somehow pics/attachments don't show up properly here, seems to work in this post (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?20464-What-did-you-add-to-your-Keyboard-today-Post-Your-Pics&p=505608&viewfull=1#post505608).
Post by: sordna on Wed, 01 February 2012, 16:34:52
Post by: boli on Wed, 01 February 2012, 16:37:41
Updated previous post with new pic.
Also: I already accustomed to the shorter travel and less noise because of o-rings, and I love it! Too bad the 125 pieces set isn't enough for 2 keyboards (136 needed), so I left a few keys without o-rings.
Update:
Weyman from WASD keyboards replied with this:
Quote
Sorry about that. That's pretty frustrating for me too as I totally wrote it there but my employee pulled the order with the description column and didn't look the other column!
I'll have replacements sent out right away and, of course, you can keep the wrong keycaps.
Very good customer service indeed, I'm impressed. :)
Post by: Input Nirvana on Thu, 02 February 2012, 16:00:47
So I'm not surprised by his service, he's the type of person that can't be any other way. :)
GO TEAM WASD KEYBOARDS!!!!
Post by: boli on Thu, 02 February 2012, 18:17:41
Quote from: sordna;504277
You could possibly bring the price down by ordering an existing keycap set, perhaps an 87 key set at $36.99 and the individual missing keys. The 104 set is an especially good deal at $39.99.
Indeed, I just checked out the 3 different sets WASD provides, plus the cost of the extra keys needed:
Moved more complete info to newer post (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?23446-kinesis-advantage-keycap-replacement-limitations&p=507346&viewfull=1#post507346) below.
Post by: sordna on Thu, 02 February 2012, 18:40:12
But I do like the 104 + 4 extra keys option, makes it much easier/faster to order, and less chance for errors.
Anyway, based on all this, WASD should offer a Kinesis blank keycap set for around $35 (with num row keys as a compromise for the 4 tall keys, for a full set). I think $35 for a 68 key set would be fair. For sure it shouldn't exceed the 87 key cap set price.
Post by: boli on Thu, 02 February 2012, 18:47:56
I just placed an order for a black engraved Colemak 104 set, and have asked Weyman what font and size they use by default (he's quick: arial 8 pt) so I can match the other keys with my next order - separate orders for tax/customs reason, if it's below ~$68 (including shipping) I won't have to pay tax/customs. The handling fee was almost twice as much as tax with the last order, I'd like to avoid that. :P
Post by: erw on Thu, 02 February 2012, 18:48:37
Post by: boli on Thu, 02 February 2012, 19:11:47
Quote from: erw;506769
Cool.. good to know. Do your counts treat keys with dots/lines (qwerty F and J, numpad 5) separately?
I counted the 2 lined keys (as I will use them), but not the dotted key (won't be used).
Post by: Input Nirvana on Fri, 03 February 2012, 01:42:45
Post by: Input Nirvana on Mon, 06 February 2012, 02:40:55
Geekhack got hacked, but before it was reloaded, Dox had posted about finding the 4 tall keys in the thumb clusters from Signature Plastics. I know that SP used to make the double shot keys for the Kinesis. So the question is whether they still offer the tall keys single shot or double shot.
Dox, can you post again regarding this? Include whatever info you have if possible.
I'll send off an email to them now to see if I can get the ball rolling (if this is a key cap they currently have).
EDIT----
(this is a quick note I have sent, just to get a response. I'll follow up if I don't here back in 2 days).
Hello,
We are looking for key caps for the Kinesis Advantage. I believe you used to be the manufacturer of these keys when they were 2 shot in the 1990's. I don't know anything else.
We either need the entire keycap set, or at least some of the "Kinesis Advantage" specific key caps (ie: the 4 uppermost keys in the thumb clusters)
If there is any information you have on this, and whether these items are for sale, please contact me.
Thank you,
Post by: boli on Mon, 06 February 2012, 03:22:28
Quote from: input nirvana;507143
Geekhack got hacked, but before it was reloaded, ...
OT forum noob question: where do you get info like this? I looked for official word for the reload last week, and didn't find anything other than some people referring to a "restore from backup" and stuff like that. Nothing in the site announcements (http://geekhack.org/forumdisplay.php?63-site-announcements) either.
Back on topic: IIRC Dox mentioned that SP at some point charged $20 for individual key caps in low volume, which is a bit much, and as we only need 4 per keyboard I dunno if a group buy (of what, 5 people?) would change that.
Post by: sordna on Mon, 06 February 2012, 09:32:20
Post by: boli on Mon, 06 February 2012, 11:29:27
Edit: I just noticed that this week's forum restore (or whatever it was) brought back posts that were lost with last week's restore, however posts made since last week's restore are gone. Great. I did save one post in a text file, you can find it below (hopefully without the mistakes erw pointed out last week).
Quote from: sordna;504277
You could possibly bring the price down by ordering an existing keycap set, perhaps an 87 key set at $36.99 and the individual missing keys. The 104 set is an especially good deal at $39.99.
I checked out the prices with the 37, 87 and 104 key set from WASD, and it's definitely possible to save a few bucks with those if what you need is blank keys.
- 104 key set: costs $39.99, you'll need just 3 extra keys: 1 extra R1 1x1.25, 1 R1 1x2, 1 NumPadEnter for a total cost of $43.49
- 87 key set: costs $36.99, you'll need 10 extras: 1 R2, 4 R1, 1 R1 1x1.25, 2 R1 1x2, 2 NumPadEnter for a total cost of $47.74
- 37 key set: costs $19.99, you'll need 27 extras: 10 R4, 1 R2, 4 R1, 8 R1 1x1.25, 2 R1 1x2, 2 NumPadEnter for a total cost of $49.49
- 37 key set AND numpad set: together they cost $29.98, you'll need 16 extras: 6 R4, 8 R1 1x1.25, 1 R1 1x2, 1 NumPadEnter for a total cost of $44.23
While a basic engraved/edged 104 set costs only $10 more, one would have to get a lot of extra custom keys to complete a Kinesis Advantage set:
- A 3 and 8 R3 key for the num row
- The eight 1x1.25 R1 keys on the outer edges of the keyboard
- Four R1 keys in the bottommost row: `, Insert, [ and ] (I assume the arrows in the 104 set are R1, which would fit well)
- The four long thumb keys (two of which are usually sideways, so beware when lasering)
- The End and PageDown thumb keys (I assume the Home and PageUp keys are R4 in the 104 set)
US, Dvorak and Colemak are probably good starting points, but due to the easy "remappability" I guess many people have their own custom layout.
I guess this is a lot harder to do than a blank set, but I would definitely buy one (or two) if the price is reasonable.
Personally I ordered a black engraved Colemak 104 set, plus the missing keys as blanks. And I emailed all of this info to WASD.
A less expensive option which wouldn't require WASD to offer a Kinesis Advantage set would be to create a custom layout template (http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/index.php/products/custom-keyboard-options/custom-option-upload-your-key-design.html) for a Kinesis Advantage (which could be adjusted for individual custom layouts) and use the Custom Keyboard Designer (http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/index.php/custom-designer/) to order key caps. When done right one would need only 3 extra custom keys (same as for the 104 set listed above). Cost would be $59.99 for the custom 104 key cap set, plus $21 for the 3 custom keys ($7 each).
If anyone is proficient with Adobe Illustrator or Corel Draw this shouldn't be too much work. Basically all the R1 1x1.25 keys which are normally used for 2x Ctrl, 2x Command/Win, 2x Alt,
Post by: erw on Mon, 06 February 2012, 14:45:53
[ATTACH=CONFIG]39482[/ATTACH]
[ATTACH=CONFIG]39483[/ATTACH]
Not the same slope as the tall modifiers, but pretty close.
I didn't seat it fully because I wanted to be able to get the 3 mm stem piece up, so you can see a bit of the red switch stem below. But even if fully seated, an R4 with stem extension will still leave a small gap between the keycap and the case.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]39481[/ATTACH]
I like this pic, btw. f/2.8 :-)
Here are my normal modifiers fully seated:
[ATTACH=CONFIG]39484[/ATTACH]
Post by: erw on Mon, 06 February 2012, 14:51:11
Quote from: boli;507346
After having used blanks for a few days I noticed it's occasionally quite handy to have legends. While they're not needed for typing it's often nice to confirm at a glance that one's pressing the right key.
Is this for some types of keys in particular (letters, symbols) or just all of them?
Quote from: boli;507346
Edit: I just noticed that this week's forum restore (or whatever it was) brought back posts that were lost with last week's restore, however posts made since last week's restore are gone. Great. I did save one post in a text file
Good you had a backup :-)
Post by: boli on Mon, 06 February 2012, 16:40:14
Quote from: erw;507450
Is this for some types of keys in particular (letters, symbols) or just all of them?
On the original Advantage LF the num row (which I moved one position to the left) doesn't have stickers with the proper labels on them, so on that particular board I sometimes catch myself picking the wrong symbol based on the misleading label when typing one of the shifted num row keys - though I can type the right symbol when not looking. :-/
With the letter keys I'm quite used to seeing the QWERTY label when looking, which I don't do when typing a sentence, but it might happen for say a particular keyboard shortcut, possibly unconsciously/automatically. I guess not looking is something to work on/get more used to, as apparently I look more than I thought I did.
The board with blank key caps will probably end up at home eventually and hopefully help with training. :) As an aside ATM that keyboard (a converted Advantage LF with o-rings) is with a work buddy. He's trying it out to compare to the other one without o-rings and brown switches he's been using on and off the last few days/weeks. He digs o-rings, is still unsure about the reds. He was also fiddling around with ControllerMate to be able to give my TE a test run. Who knows, could turn out to become a new member of this subforum. :D Speaking of which, another work buddy (former TypeMatrix user) with a brown TE of his own, and custom Dvorak layout should post around here soon, met him today for o-ring testing on my Advantage. So far o-rings are very well received, his will be the 4th bag ordered. ;)
At work I'd like to try a board with proper, if subtle, legends. Looking forward to it. :)
Quote
Good you had a backup :-)
Aye, even though it was a slightly outdated one, had to redo the fixes. ;)
Post by: Dox on Mon, 06 February 2012, 16:46:39
What I said yesterday is that I found a few keys with the high profile of the thumb keys in my SP grab bag.
So, I'm pretty sure that SP can still do them.
Last time I ordered some non stocked keycaps from SP, I had to pay 20$ per keycap (I ordered 4 keycaps). What was for some blank PBT. Price will get lower in a group buy.
I have a Esc, F1, F2, F5, F6, F8, F9, / and Insert.
I was happy when I found those as they will probably be useful for my future ErgoDoxs!
Post by: Input Nirvana on Mon, 06 February 2012, 16:51:58
Someone, (I can't follow up properly at this time) could possibly get the info from Dox and figure out what he's got, if SP has it, and/or where that possibility may stand.
Other choices:
-We can see about removing legends from black and white key cap sets from Kinesis.
-We can find sphericals in other colors.
-We can make the missing keys in a couple months, unless someone else does it sooner.
Post by: boli on Mon, 06 February 2012, 16:58:15
Quote from: erw;507444
I tried gluing my stem fragment to an R4 with hot glue, just to test it before I considered more extreme glues. It didn't endure being pulled off again, but here's how it looked:
Not the same slope as the tall modifiers, but pretty close.
I didn't seat it fully because I wanted to be able to get the 3 mm stem piece up, so you can see a bit of the red switch stem below. But even if fully seated, an R4 with stem extension will still leave a small gap between the keycap and the case.
I like this pic, btw. f/2.8 :-)
It's out of focus, /qq! ;) Seriously though, nice shallow depth of field effect. :)
The extended R4 looks pretty good, I don't think the small gap would matter, as long as the key feels alright. Did it feel OK?
Quote from: Dox;507530
I found a few keys with the high profile of the thumb keys in my SP grab bag.
So, I'm pretty sure that SP can still do them.
Last time I ordered some non stocked keycaps from SP, I had to pay 20$ per keycap (I ordered 4 keycaps). What was for some blank PBT. Price will get lower in a group buy.
I have a Esc, F1, F2, F5, F6, F8, F9, / and Insert.
I was happy when I found those as they will probably be useful for my future ErgoDoxs!
If they can still do it (with tooling for some other keyboard maybe) I guess it would depend a lot on the price. At 4 keys per board we'd most likely need quite a few participants to achieve a good price? (don't have any experience with group buys yet)
Quote from: input nirvana;507534
The simple email answer from SP today is that they no longer have the tooling for the Kinesis Contoured line. :(
Someone, (I can't follow up properly at this time) could possibly get the info from Dox and figure out what he's got, if SP has it, and/or where that possibility may stand.
Other choices:
-We can see about removing legends from black and white key cap sets from Kinesis.
-We can find sphericals in other colors.
-We can make the missing keys in a couple months, unless someone else does it sooner.
:( Too bad, but maybe they still do similar keys for other boards, it's not like tall F keys Dox mentions could have been produced for a current Advantage. Though I guess those could have been customized with the Kinesis tooling, which would help explain the high cost.
Other than that the options you mention are available for blanks, and the stem extension would probably be required for custom engraved/etched keys.
Post by: Dox on Mon, 06 February 2012, 17:14:16
Pics:
[ATTACH=CONFIG]39496[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]39497[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]39498[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]39499[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]39500[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]39501[/ATTACH]
Post by: boli on Mon, 06 February 2012, 17:18:36
Quote from: Dox;507547
Hummm..... I think she is confusing them with the old home row spherical.
Who is she? As for home row sphericals I'm not fussed, the replacements feel good. :)
Those keys do look pretty much like what we're looking for.
Post by: Dox on Mon, 06 February 2012, 17:23:10
I guess that IN answer from SP came from Melissa. (never heard of anyone else there)
Post by: boli on Mon, 06 February 2012, 17:30:45
Quote from: Dox;507555
Yeah I think that they are the same. I will confirm it when I receive sordna kinesis from the try and forward tour.
I guess that IN answer from SP came from Melissa. (never heard of anyone else there)
Hmm, the keys you have don't seem to be any of the ones in the following chart from SP's FAQ (http://keycapsdirect.com/faq.php).
(http://keycapsdirect.com/images/faq/FamilyProfilesLG.jpg)
Post by: erw on Mon, 06 February 2012, 17:35:57
Quote from: boli;507537
It's out of focus, /qq! ;) Seriously though, nice shallow depth of field effect. :)
The extended R4 looks pretty good, I don't think the small gap would matter, as long as the key feels alright. Did it feel OK?
Thanks :-)
Yeah, it was fine. I wasn't completely relaxed when I was touching it consciously because I knew it was fragile, but I used it for some days without any issues.
Post by: Dox on Mon, 06 February 2012, 17:40:12
Quote from: boli;507565
Hmm, the keys you have don't seem to be any of the ones in the following chart from SP's FAQ (http://keycapsdirect.com/faq.php).DCS row 5. What's what it is.Show Image(http://keycapsdirect.com/images/faq/FamilyProfilesLG.jpg)
Edit: I measured the sloping angle and it's 6 deg too.
Post by: boli on Mon, 06 February 2012, 17:45:27
Quote from: Dox;507574
DCS row 5. What's what it is.
Oh, that'd be a standard key then I guess. :) I thought DCS5 was the closest fit, but it didn't seem quite tall enough.
Edit:
Quote from: erw;507569
Yeah, it was fine. I wasn't completely relaxed when I was touching it consciously because I knew it was fragile, but I used it for some days without any issues.
Awesome, in that case we have hope for both original-shape blanks by SP (Dox's find) and engraved/etched customs with stem extension from WASD. ^_^
Post by: sordna on Mon, 06 February 2012, 17:53:01
Post by: kps on Mon, 06 February 2012, 17:53:48
Quote from: input nirvana;507534
The simple email answer from SP today is that they no longer have the tooling for the Kinesis Contoured line. :(
I'm pretty sure SP auto reply "we don't have the tooling" to every inquiry.
I suspect that the SP DCS series row 5 would be a good match for the thumb modifiers. I don't have measurements, but if their diagrams are to scale this key with a a flush stem (PU) would be pretty much an exact match for the KB120 key.
Quote
-We can find sphericals in other colors.
The SP DSA series would do. Their center height is 295 mils. With SP's flush stem (PU) or slightly recessed stem (4U) they would be nearly an exact match for the KB130 and Advantage series. With the -86mil stem (6U) they'd be close to the KB120 height. With the -45mil stem (HU) they'd be in between. (The difference in height between the KB120 and later sphericals is more than a tenth of an inch.)
Post by: Input Nirvana on Mon, 06 February 2012, 18:04:41
Looks like there are some better options possibly available with smaller compromises! Yaaayyyy!!!
What. A. Hassle. For. Key. Caps.
Post by: sordna on Mon, 06 February 2012, 18:09:13
Post by: kps on Mon, 06 February 2012, 18:28:06
Quote from: sordna;507597
Which is the correct row numbering?
According to ISO/IEC JTC 1/SC 35 N WD 9995-2 2010-10-8 the correct numbering is ‘A’ for the row with the space bar, `B’ for the row with Level 2 select (or, as the hoi polloi refer to it, “shift”), and so on.
Failure to employ the correct numbering will lead to a written reprimand being placed on file in your permanent record.
Post by: boli on Tue, 07 February 2012, 02:29:55
Quote from: boli;507346
A less expensive option which wouldn't require WASD to offer a Kinesis Advantage set would be to create a custom layout template (http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/index.php/products/custom-keyboard-options/custom-option-upload-your-key-design.html) for a Kinesis Advantage (which could be adjusted for individual custom layouts) and use the Custom Keyboard Designer (http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/index.php/custom-designer/) to order key caps. When done right one would need only 3 extra custom keys (same as for the 104 set listed above). Cost would be $59.99 for the custom 104 key cap set, plus $21 for the 3 custom keys ($7 each).
If anyone is proficient with Adobe Illustrator or Corel Draw this shouldn't be too much work. Basically all the R1 1x1.25 keys which are normally used for 2x Ctrl, 2x Command/Win, 2x Alt,
As I'm having my heating fixed I'm stuck at home for an hour or two, so I took the chance to do this! Here's a preview, please report any errors. WASD's templates can be found at the link above, and the normal WASD keyboard to Kinesis mapping is taken from the ghetto-adapted-chart in the post I quoted.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]39547[/ATTACH]
Note: This is the Kinesis default layout. I will be making my custom layout (see sig) with Colemak, and I will make a save when the letters are moved to Colemak positions, prior to doing my personal adjustments like moving the num row and doing my others adjustments (erw and Input Nirvana, I'm looking at you guys). I'm happy to provide the AI/PDF templates I made. The 3 extra keys at the bottom would have to be ordered as customs, unless WASD is willing to make them and leave off the blank keys, which aren't needed on a Kinesis board.
Update: Sent an email to WASDkeyboards:
Quote
Hi Weyman
I finally found time to adapt your custom layout templates for a Kinesis Advantage board. Attached you'll find a preview (it's being reviewed/corrected at GeekHack, I can provide AI (CS4 version) or PDF once it's final).
The keys I left blank aren't needed on a Kinesis Advantage, however the 3 extra keys I put at the bottom are needed. I'm wondering if you can use a layout like this to make a custom Kinesis set, and if so what the price would be (without the blank keys, but with the extra 3 keys instead).
Just to make sure, please confirm a few assumptions:
- the Home and PgUp are R4?
- The `, Insert, [ and ] in the numpad area are R1?
- The PgDn in the numpad area is R2?
- The four arrows are R1?
Thank you and best regards, Oliver
Post by: boli on Tue, 07 February 2012, 03:04:06
Quote from: boli;507346
A less expensive option which wouldn't require WASD to offer a Kinesis Advantage set would be to create a custom layout template (http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/index.php/products/custom-keyboard-options/custom-option-upload-your-key-design.html) for a Kinesis Advantage (which could be adjusted for individual custom layouts) and use the Custom Keyboard Designer (http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/index.php/custom-designer/) to order key caps. When done right one would need only 3 extra custom keys (same as for the 104 set listed above). Cost would be $59.99 for the custom 104 key cap set, plus $21 for the 3 custom keys ($7 each).
If anyone is proficient with Adobe Illustrator or Corel Draw this shouldn't be too much work. Basically all the R1 1x1.25 keys which are normally used for 2x Ctrl, 2x Command/Win, 2x Alt,
As I'm having my heating fixed I'm stuck at home for an hour or two, so I took the chance to do this! Here's a preview, please report any errors. WASD's templates can be found at the link above, and the normal WASD keyboard to Kinesis mapping is taken from the ghetto-adapted-chart in the post I quoted.
Note: This is the Kinesis default layout. I will be making my custom layout (see sig) with Colemak, and I will make a save when the letters are moved to Colemak positions, prior to doing my personal adjustments like moving the num row and doing my others adjustments (erw and Input Nirvana, I'm looking at you guys). I'm happy to provide the AI/PDF templates I made. The 3 extra keys at the bottom would have to be ordered as customs, unless WASD is willing to make them and leave off the blank keys, which aren't needed on a Kinesis board.
Edit: Removed outdated template and added updated version in later post below.
Update: Sent an email to WASDkeyboards:
Quote
Hi Weyman
I finally found time to adapt your custom layout templates for a Kinesis Advantage board. Attached you'll find a preview (it's being reviewed/corrected at GeekHack, I can provide AI (CS4 version) or PDF once it's final).
The keys I left blank aren't needed on a Kinesis Advantage, however the 3 extra keys I put at the bottom are needed. I'm wondering if you can use a layout like this to make a custom Kinesis set, and if so what the price would be (without the blank keys, but with the extra 3 keys instead).
Just to make sure, please confirm a few assumptions:
- the Home and PgUp are R4?
- The `, Insert, [ and ] in the numpad area are R1?
- The PgDn in the numpad area is R2?
- The four arrows are R1?
Thank you and best regards, Oliver
Post by: erw on Tue, 07 February 2012, 08:57:32
I think the Enter text should be vertical upside down compared to the Delete key.
Post by: boli on Tue, 07 February 2012, 10:14:22
Quote from: erw;508120
Awesome job :-)
I think the Enter text should be vertical upside down compared to the Delete key.
Thanks. Wut you don't like wrong sloped keys for your right thumb? ;) Good catch, will fix when back home (3 times, that's what I get for being overzealous and doing the Colemak and custom layout already).
Update: Updated template to v0.4
[ATTACH=CONFIG]39569[/ATTACH]
Post by: Input Nirvana on Tue, 07 February 2012, 12:35:22
------There is quite a bit of information on this post, so I am not exactly sure
what it is that you are wanting me to look at. To clarify, we made custom
keycaps for Kinesis back in the 80's. This program was an ergonomic keyboard
with very custom shapes. This was also well before my time, so I don't know
if any of our standard DCS keycaps were used in the program and
unfortunately all of that information went back to Kinesis with their
tooling. We do make DCS sculptured keycaps that are referred to on that
post, however what keys are used and whether or not they are a good fit on
the Kinesis board is unknown to me.
Do you have pictures of the keycaps you are looking to replace? I don't have
a reference to the Kinesis keyboard you are looking at, so I don't know what
keys in particular you need.-------
Post by: sordna on Tue, 07 February 2012, 12:44:09
Post by: boli on Tue, 07 February 2012, 12:50:15
As for pictures, we have ksd's chart:
http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=35911&d=1324805031
And we have the photos in Dox's post (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?23446-kinesis-advantage-keycap-replacement-limitations&p=507547&viewfull=1#post507547), for example this one:
http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=39501&d=1328570045
These can be viewed without being logged in.
Post by: erw on Sun, 12 February 2012, 12:42:15
Quote from: boli;508023
Sent an email to WASDkeyboards
Any word from Weyman?
Post by: boli on Sun, 12 February 2012, 13:08:26
Quote from: erw;512556
Any word from Weyman?
Unfortunately no. I assume he's busy (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?23023-Estimated-Timeline-for-New-Products&p=510007&viewfull=1#post510007) with the 105 keyboards.
Update: Resent mail with the updated preview (v0.4).
Update 2: BTW I should get the Colemak set some time next week, looking forward to checking out the laser engraving quality. I got the spare keys as blanks this week already.
Post by: Input Nirvana on Mon, 13 February 2012, 02:10:26
heh heh
Post by: boli on Tue, 14 February 2012, 13:56:09
Apologies for the excessive noise in the pictures, this camera doesn't cope well with low light situations... I like the all black look quite a bit, looks very elegant IMO.
As you can see there's loads of blank keys that didn't come with the set. The custom layout set will fix this, if/when Weyman replies. If not I'm somewhat tempted to get the custom layout with 3 extra custom keys... :)
[ATTACH=CONFIG]40495[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]40496[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]40497[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]40498[/ATTACH]
And here's a few extra ones with some color, though I don't like any of these particularly.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]40499[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]40500[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]40501[/ATTACH]
Post by: sordna on Tue, 14 February 2012, 14:01:32
Post by: boli on Tue, 14 February 2012, 14:04:57
BTW I have 3, the one in the pictures above is the one with browns. A second LF (well upgraded with red key wells) is with another work buddy who's also doing a test drive. This forces me to really test the TE at work. ^^
Post by: Input Nirvana on Tue, 14 February 2012, 14:45:04
We gotta firm up the final key caps situation 1)exact 2) reasonable swaps 3) keys I'm gonna make for what can't be reasonably swapped.
Boli, you're the man!
Post by: boli on Tue, 14 February 2012, 15:25:56
With the WASD custom layout vector files (104 key) we're very close to reaching a 2) reasonable swaps state IMO. If only we could get those 3 extra lasered key caps needed for an Advantage, instead of all the extra unneeded caps from the num block and navigation area.
The WASD replacements have worked pretty well, other than for the tall thumb keys (the R4 aren't tall enough so the thumbs hit the keys below). For those we have options like SP (possibly), sandpaper, extending stems, or Input Nirvana's garage cap factory. :D
Post by: erw on Tue, 14 February 2012, 17:36:46
I had almost settled on etched, but now I'm about to change my mind again :-)
Quote from: boli;514428
sandpaper
Haha, I just tried sandpapering a key yesterday to see how easy it was to get nice looking. Unfortunately it still looks rough while it feels smooth. But I don't have anything finer than grit P400.
Post by: boli on Tue, 14 February 2012, 17:48:02
Quote from: erw;514555
The caps are lovely, boli :-)
[snip] Haha, I just tried sandpapering a key yesterday to see how easy it was to get nice looking. Unfortunately it still looks rough while it feels smooth. But I don't have anything finer than grit P400.
Yeah I like the caps too. When I received them I thought 8pt was way too small/subtle, but now that they're on the board it's much better. Still wondering how larger fonts would look like when etched (some of the spare caps were 10pt I think, but I left them with a work buddy).
Haha. Come to think of it I might have some fine sandpaper in my guitar case in the cellar (was used for nail filing). Hmm... ^^
Small clarification on the R4 aren't tall enough so the thumbs hit the keys below: While I do touch the two keys below, and even slightly depress them sometimes, I haven't accidentally activated one yet. Still tall keys would be nice. :)
On an unrelated note: I tried out 2 and 3 o-rings on a stem. 2 didn't feel noticeably different from 1. 3 took quite a bit of pressure to make the key cap stick. I put in on the e key (k in QWERTY), wrote a few lines of text and surprisingly didn't really care for it. I thought I liked short travel, thinking back to the Apple aluminum keyboard. But with 3 rings it's harder to not bottom out, and even with the softer landing not bottoming out feels nicer. One ring is enough to make the occasional landing both softer and less noisy. Did anyone else have experiences with this?
Post by: sordna on Tue, 14 February 2012, 18:12:02
Regarding o-rings: I only use 1 under each key, since prefer to avoid bottoming out as much as possible.
Post by: erw on Tue, 14 February 2012, 19:33:05
Quote from: boli;514563
Yeah I like the caps too. When I received them I thought 8pt was way too small/subtle, but now that they're on the board it's much better. Still wondering how larger fonts would look like when etched
Yeah, the size looks good. I guess normal Kinesis keycap letters would be around 16pt in that scale, but that's not really a good. Size <10pt or something centered and huge (30pt?) would be cool I think. There are so many options and I want to order them all!
Quote from: sordna;514581
Actually a sanded key should look better over time, remember how textured keys get shiny anyway? Of course, getting finer sandpaper like 800 or finer grit would help too.
Mine get shiny very slowly, I guess my hands are not very abrasive (come to think of it, girls at my dance class sometimes say I have soft hands). But I just got an idea and used my jeans for the final "sanding"! Now it looks better and it's the smoothest key I have :-P
Post by: sordna on Tue, 14 February 2012, 19:35:24
Quote from: erw;514628
But I just got an idea and used my jeans for the final "sanding"! Now it looks better and it's the smoothest key I have :-P
That's called "buffing". Good idea by the way!
Post by: Input Nirvana on Wed, 15 February 2012, 00:20:58
I pinched photo #2 and inserted it into the Split Kinesis gallery...it's slick!
Post by: boli on Wed, 15 February 2012, 02:12:01
Quote from: erw;514628
Yeah, the size looks good. I guess normal Kinesis keycap letters would be around 16pt in that scale, but that's not really a good. Size <10pt or something centered and huge (30pt?) would be cool I think. There are so many options and I want to order them all!
If you go the custom layout way there's lots of spare keys you can experiment with. Let me know if you'd like the vector files I made (AI 4 format).
Quote from: input nirvana;514924
Boli-
I pinched photo #2 and inserted it into the Split Kinesis gallery...it's slick!
Awesome, I'm sure it will be very happy among all those nice modded-Advantage and intermission pix. ;D
Update: Weyman replied!
Quote
Thanks for laying it out like that. I'd be happy to assist you and other GH members with getting a custom Kinesis set. I have a few other projects I need to finish at the moment, so I'll have get back to you on this set in about a week. I can offer the set at the same price as a regular custom set. I think what I'll do is make a special template that users can upload with their orders. I'll let you know as soon as I have time to work on it. Thank you.
OK so that'd be $60. Not as low as one could have hoped, but it beats paying $60 for the set and $7 each for the 3 extra custom keys.
And for people who'd rather have blanks there is the $43.49 option I listed (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?23446-kinesis-advantage-keycap-replacement-limitations&p=507346&viewfull=1#post507346) earlier.
Post by: Input Nirvana on Wed, 15 February 2012, 02:46:32
Quote from: boli;514978
Update: Weyman replied!
Since I met Weyman, I'm a big fan of his. As long as it makes business sense (which has many interpretations), he will probably be open to services/products/ideas. It's tough from our perspective to understand why selling a couple of this or that isn't a good thing for him, but remember it's often a TIME issue. If he can invest time in initially developing a process that can be repeated with less of a time investment, it is economy of scale and he can afford to provide what we want at a competitive price point. That's why I originally went to his location with a Kinesis to try and hammer out some of the bug-a-boos. Here we are a couple months later still working on getting it right. Time.
In the interest of making it work out, if it turns out I need to make these darn 'missing' key caps, I'd make a ton and give them to Weyman so the Kinesis template can be flawless. But don't worry, you guys working/contributing in these threads will still get the 'missing' keys from me directly. Mostly so I can get your addresses should I need places to hide out from girlfriends :)
Post by: boli on Wed, 15 February 2012, 10:02:48
Quote
Hi Weyman
Great to hear back from you, I'm looking forward to your follow-up mail in a week. :)
A special template sounds good, even though I've already created 3 different versions based on the current 104 template - I'm happy to recreate them though.
As for price that would mean $60, despite needing 40 keys less than the normal 104 set? I take it the extra cost is for the extra work you'd have when lasering the 3 extra keys that don't fit in the 104 jig...
Best regards, Oliver
I'm OK with $60 because I'm aware that anything out of the ordinary means extra work, we'll see.
Quote from: input nirvana;514996
In the interest of making it work out, if it turns out I need to make these darn 'missing' key caps, I'd make a ton and give them to Weyman so the Kinesis template can be flawless. But don't worry, you guys working/contributing in these threads will still get the 'missing' keys from me directly. Mostly so I can get your addresses should I need places to hide out from girlfriends :)
Ha! :D
Instead of making your own it might be worth ordering a DCS row 5 from SP to verify it's the one we need. According to their DCS inventory (http://keycapsdirect.com/key-capsinventory.php) they have 1'000 caps stock of ABS DCS - 1X ROW 5 - BLACK (NN). They don't have any PBT versions, nor any other colors stock.
Interest check:
- Who would buy blank key cap sets from WASD at the current $44?
- Who would buy lasered key cap sets from WASD at the current $60?
I need at least another lasered set, more likely two. However I am somewhat tempted to order a custom set now so I have the option of trying out some weird stuff on the extra keys... ;) Also I'd like to know how an "old school remix" set would look on a black Kinesis. Could be awesome or awful. For now I really like the elegant all black caps...
Post by: Input Nirvana on Wed, 15 February 2012, 12:03:10
An email needs to go to SP about the measurements of DCS-1X ROW 5....oops, I just sent it :)
Will report back when I get a response.
Post by: boli on Wed, 15 February 2012, 12:11:21
Quote from: input nirvana;515251
I'm in for blank. And, despite my 'exciting' and 'arty' flair for the Kinesis, the black color suits me fine. But of course I'm open to other color options/mixes.
Just one set?
Quote
An email needs to go to SP about the measurements of DCS-1X ROW 5....oops, I just sent it :)
Will report back when I get a response.
Awesome, cheers!
Post by: erw on Wed, 15 February 2012, 12:32:29
Quote from: input nirvana;514996
Mostly so I can get your addresses should I need places to hide out from girlfriends :)
Haha, if you need a place to hide from girlfriends in Europe, lemme know :-P
Quote from: boli;515149
Interest check:
- Who would buy blank key cap sets from WASD at the current $44?
- Who would buy lasered key cap sets from WASD at the current $60?
I'd like two lasered sets. Well, I'd like a lot more, but I'm probably only going to want to buy two for the moment :-)
Post by: Input Nirvana on Wed, 15 February 2012, 14:02:20
"The height on the front of the key: from the bottom skirt to the upper-most
point is 0.470".
The height on the back of the key: from the bottom skirt to the upper-most
point is 0.512"
The slope is -6 degrees"
Melissa Petersen
Signature Plastics LLC
I'm definitely in for a set of black, no legends, and with the extra keys that are added (see mods articles). Any more will be this summer for 2 other boards also with extra keys (see mods articles) and NOT black.
Post by: boli on Wed, 15 February 2012, 16:14:51
Meanwhile I'll go check out if I still have the fine sandpaper I mentioned. :)
Update 1: IN, for how long have you had the pic of the Mothership in your article? For some reason I never saw that before. ;D
Update 2: I do have some P 800 sandpaper, which is quite fine, but did leave some faint marks, and a finer one for polishing, which got more or less (rather less) rid of the marks. Now I get that sandpapering isn't exciting, quite a bit of work for a single key, and that was only one with Ctrl on it. :)
Update 3: Ugh I need coarser sandpaper, this Option Alt legend takes forever to get off.
Post by: Input Nirvana on Wed, 15 February 2012, 17:54:23
The article is a horrible mess, very disorganized and difficult to navigate. It should be broken down into several specific bite sized pieces, as previously suggested....too much info is hard to navigate. And those damn girlie pics really distract!
Post by: boli on Wed, 15 February 2012, 17:58:19
Quote from: input nirvana;515514
The Mogambo-Mothership-of-all-Kineses-Keyboards? The one at the beginning of the gallery has been there a loooong time. The huge pic with the notes I am making is very recent.
Ye I meant the one at the very end - that thing has almost everything. :) *Must focus on the keyboard*
Post by: Input Nirvana on Wed, 15 February 2012, 18:02:23
Quote from: boli;515517
Ye I meant the one at the very end - that thing has almost everything. :) *Must focus on the keyboard*
Keep in mind, the red notes are MY notes on what I may make those same keys. The guy that flies that particular keyboard is Korean, so I have no idea what his captions say :) I can tell you he is using an AIKON controller, not the stock Kinesis controller.
Post by: boli on Thu, 16 February 2012, 03:11:16
[ATTACH=CONFIG]40732[/ATTACH]
Post by: Input Nirvana on Thu, 16 February 2012, 03:20:49
Paper grit/type and process.
Do you think the caps are getting a little thin?
Post by: boli on Thu, 16 February 2012, 03:22:34
[ATTACH=CONFIG]40733[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]40734[/ATTACH]
I just used the P800 sandpaper I had and rubbed like an idiot, once the legend was gone I used the polishing paper. I should really get some rougher sandpaper to start with though, 5-10 minutes of rubbing is what was done to the right key. I didn't use a jig nor a wooden cylinder or similar for the sandpaper, just held the key with one hand and rubbed with the other...
Don't notice any thinness, but they feel very smooth. And the edges are a little sharper, but that's not an issue when typing.
Post by: Input Nirvana on Thu, 16 February 2012, 03:40:40
Thank you, I'm thinking it looks pretty darn good. What are your thoughts?
Post by: boli on Thu, 16 February 2012, 06:14:20
I think they look good as well. The smoothness of the surface doesn't matter to me. While the difference is noticeable, both are fine.
BTW the WASDkeyboards website was updated with a 105 key custom designer.
Post by: Icarium on Thu, 16 February 2012, 13:03:45
Post by: boli on Thu, 16 February 2012, 17:10:33
[ATTACH=CONFIG]40778[/ATTACH]
[ATTACH=CONFIG]40780[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=CONFIG]40781[/ATTACH]
This one in particular illustrates better how it looks like IRL, less shine more dark elegance ;D
[ATTACH=CONFIG]40779[/ATTACH]
Post by: Input Nirvana on Fri, 17 February 2012, 05:36:40
Not that I have any ideas, but just the concept of having something non-techy and contributing towards the artistic side of the keyboard, like your pics, Boli. Heck, all you need is a Darth Vader key cap!
Post by: boli on Fri, 17 February 2012, 06:39:24
Personally I don't care about Click Clack keys or other key caps with weird 3D surfaces. To be fair a Darth Vader would look pretty neat on a full black Advantage.
Post by: Input Nirvana on Fri, 17 February 2012, 12:44:48
Quote from: boli;516899
-If the Kinesis had a proper escape button I'd have put a red key cap on it (like I did on my TE), as the single "special" key.
-Personally I don't care about Click Clack keys or other key caps with weird 3D surfaces.
-To be fair a Darth Vader would look pretty neat on a full black Advantage.
With you 100% on all 3 statements.
I'd be good with a 2D key, right in the very middle of the keyboard, that didn't perform any other function when pressed other than make the sound of a womans voice: "Oh, Input Nirvana, you're plundering my booty!"
Post by: boli on Fri, 17 February 2012, 13:22:53
Post by: kps on Fri, 17 February 2012, 15:57:01
Quote from: boli;515968
BTW the WASDkeyboards website was updated with a 105 key custom designer, and while they were at it they raised the price of custom layout key caps to $80, up from $60.You had me scared for a moment! But no, the price of a custom set is still $60, which is -$80 from a custom keyboard.
Post by: boli on Fri, 17 February 2012, 16:00:23
Quote from: kps;517258
You had me scared for a moment! But no, the price of a custom set is still $60, which is -$80 from a custom keyboard.
Oh, right you are, thanks for the correction. Will fix misleading earlier posts.
Edit: Hmm, in the keyboard designer it looks like it's $59.99 for just the key caps and +$10 for the custom design for a total of $69.99.
Now I'm actually unsure what is was before the recent designer update. Earlier (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?23446-kinesis-advantage-keycap-replacement-limitations&p=507346&viewfull=1#post507346) I wrote $59.99 total, but had I missed the $10 for custom all along, or did the price increase by $10?
Post by: kps on Fri, 17 February 2012, 19:20:54
Quote from: boli;517263
I wrote $59.99 total, but had I missed the $10 for custom all along, or did the price increase by $10?
Neither, it's just that the tool is a bit confusing in that respect. The $59.99 includes the etched or engraved layout shown in the Flash tool. Hit "Preset designs" and select the blank layout, and the price drops to $49.99; then uploading your design brings it back to $59.99.
Post by: minnus on Fri, 17 February 2012, 22:37:16
Post by: Input Nirvana on Sat, 18 February 2012, 02:30:01
Go to my sig and hit the link, follow it down to the Kinesis Gallery towards the end and see several painted keyboards.
And, the Kinesis Advantage Pro, is a black plastic board, with silver paint on the top half of the case. It's painted overseas with some pretty good paint, I've never seen one scratched.
Post by: minnus on Sat, 18 February 2012, 13:01:14
Post by: Input Nirvana on Sat, 18 February 2012, 14:09:51
Post by: oneproduct on Wed, 22 February 2012, 08:10:12
Choose 6 from the following, or add an X after the 125 to get 10 for the price of 9:
Item Qty $ Description
BLANKPBT/R3U125/BLUE 1 2 Blank 1.25 units (row 3 / ASDFGH row) /50
BLANKPBT/R3U125/WHITE 1 2 Blank 1.25 units (row 3 / ASDFGH row) /50
BLANKPBT/R3U125/BLACK 1 2 Blank 1.25 units (row 3 / ASDFGH row) /50
BLANK/R3U125/WHITE 1 2 Blank 1.25 units (row 3 / ASDFGH row) /50
BLANK/R3U125/VERYDARKGREY 1 2 Blank 1.25 units (row 3 / ASDFGH row) /50
BLANK/R3U125/BLACK 1 2 Blank 1.25 units (row 3 / ASDFGH row) /50
BLANK/R3U125/LIGHTGREY 1 2 Blank 1.25 units (row 3 / ASDFGH row) /50
BLANK/R3U125/DARKGREY 1 2 Blank 1.25 units (row 3 / ASDFGH row) /50
BLANK/R3U125/CLEAR 1 2 Blank 1.25 units (row 3 / ASDFGH row) /50
Choose 2 from the following, or add an X after the 125 to get 10 for the price of 9:
Item Qty $ Description
BLANKPBT/R1U125/BLUE 1 2 Blank 1.25 units (row 1 / Function row) /50
BLANKPBT/R1U125/WHITE 1 2 Blank 1.25 units (row 1 / Function row) /50
BLANKPBT/R1U125/BLACK 1 2 Blank 1.25 units (row 1 / Function row) /50
BLANK/R1U125/WHITE 1 2 Blank 1.25 units (row 1 / Function row) /50
BLANK/R1U125/VERYDARKGREY 1 2 Blank 1.25 units (row 1 / Function row) /50
BLANK/R1U125/BLACK 1 2 Blank 1.25 units (row 1 / Function row) /50
BLANK/R1U125/LIGHTGREY 1 2 Blank 1.25 units (row 1 / Function row) /50
BLANK/R1U125/DARKGREY 1 2 Blank 1.25 units (row 1 / Function row) /50
BLANK/R1U125/CLEAR 1 2 Blank 1.25 units (row 1 / Function row) /50
To order, send a PM to 7bit_R4:
http://geekhack.org/private.php?do=newpm&u=11268
The PM should look like:
BLANKPBT/R3U125/BLACK 6
BLANKPBT/R1U125/BLACK 2
EMAIL myaddress@mydomain.com
I hope that I understood input nirvana's post on the 6th page correctly and that those are indeed the profiles needed.
Post by: boli on Wed, 22 February 2012, 08:37:27
One has to take care regarding row numbers, as SP and WASDkeyboards use different terminology. In this thread we used the WASD terminology, whereas the group buy round 4 uses the SP terminology.
If I understand correctly this is it:
- Num row: SP row 1, WASDkb row 4
- QWERTY row: SP row 2, WASDkb row 3
- ASDFGH row: SP row 3, WASDkb row 2
- ZXCVBN row: SP row 4, WASDkb row 1
- Bottom modifier row: SP row ?, WASDkb row 1
#1: 6 pinky keys Should be WASDkb R2 (or SP R3), but WASD doesn't have those, so we made do with WASDkb R1.
#2: 2 pinky keys Should be WASDkb R4 (or SP R1), but WASD doesn't have those, so we made do with WASDkb R1.
Thanks oneproduct, it looks like you picked the proper SP keys. :)
Also, I think the group buy offers spherical keys as well, for people who prefer the 8 spherical home position keys.
I gave ordering some of the SP keys a thought as well, but I don't think I'll do it. While I do like the round3 style doubleshots (judging from pictures), which is even available as Colemak set, a Kinesis set would be somewhat incomplete as a few keys (such as the 1.25 wide keys, the Kinesis bottom row keys as well as the thumb keys) wouldn't have a proper label. For blank sets it should work fine though.
WASD key caps should soon be available with custom labels, so all but 4 keys can be replaced with decent (if occasionally not exact) caps.
Post by: oneproduct on Wed, 22 February 2012, 09:39:22
Item - Qty - Price - Description
BLANKSPH/R3U100D/SPHBLUE 1 2 Blank 1 unit key with deep dish /50
BLANKSPH/R3U100D/SPHGREY 1 2 Blank 1 unit key with deep dish /50
Post by: kps on Wed, 22 February 2012, 09:56:57
Quote from: oneproduct;521821
For the spherical keys on the homerow, you can order from these:
Item - Qty - Price - Description
BLANKSPH/R3U100D/SPHBLUE 1 2 Blank 1 unit key with deep dish /50
BLANKSPH/R3U100D/SPHGREY 1 2 Blank 1 unit key with deep dish /50
Note that those are significantly taller than the Kinesis home keys. However, if there are more than a couple orders, I expect 7bit would be willing to add an "ASDFJKL;" SPH set, since the keys are already being made for regular sets.
Post by: boli on Wed, 22 February 2012, 17:49:45
I ask because I found this in IN's sig, apparently the cylindrical key caps in the pic are shorter than stock:
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=15817&d=1299376935)
Other than that they look pretty much what I saw from some round 3 group buy pics. I quite like that style. :)
Post by: Input Nirvana on Wed, 22 February 2012, 19:42:40
Quote from: boli;522269
I suppose one would ideally get 8 sphericals and the rest cylindricals from the round 4 group buy so they would match, or is it just the sphericals that are extra long?
I ask because I found this in IN's sig, apparently the cylindrical key caps in the pic are shorter than stock:Show Image(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=15817&d=1299376935)
Other than that they look pretty much what I saw from some round 3 group buy pics. I quite like that style. :)
The pic is from this Geekhack thread:
http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?13894-Mmmm-ergo-Kinesis-Advantage-)
The info source may have dried up, may be worth a PM?
Post by: boli on Thu, 23 February 2012, 02:12:31
Quote from: input nirvana;522393
The pic is from this Geekhack thread:
http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?13894-Mmmm-ergo-Kinesis-Advantage-)
The info source may have dried up, may be worth a PM?
Aha, SP keys from Whiterice, which seem to be a quarter inch (~6 mm!?) shorter than the stock Kinesis. No part no.
And I see you've been on your quest for replacement key caps for over a year. :)
Update: rantenki is still active on GH, I sent a PM to ask for details.
Post by: oneproduct on Thu, 23 February 2012, 05:50:44
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=41218&d=1329772053&thumb=1)(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=39171&d=1328057465&thumb=1)
Who doesn't love cats? :)
Tacgnol in particular needs more orders or is at risk of getting cut. :(
Post by: Input Nirvana on Thu, 23 February 2012, 13:10:36
Quote from: boli;522856
IN, your sig is quite a treasure trove. This trackball (http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=19273&d=1308455232) looks very comfortable for right handed people. :)
Aha, SP keys from Whiterice, which seem to be a quarter inch (~6 mm!?) shorter than the stock Kinesis. No part no.
And I see you've been on your quest for replacement key caps for over a year. :)
Update: rantenki is still active on GH, I sent a PM to ask for details.
-He did a nice job on the trackball mod, it's documented on GH and generated interest. I may not have linked it in article...I'll go back and link it if I didn't.
http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?17582-My-Kinesis-Keyboard-mod&highlight=kinesis+trackball
-Have not had time to follow up and check status of key replacement, so didn't check on Whiterice info. I'm gone a lot for another week :(
-Been doing the "Kinesis mod thingy" for a while now, you guys are late to the party!...But it's far more fun with you guys, so better late than never :)
-Good you sent PM
Post by: boli on Thu, 23 February 2012, 16:18:02
I ordered a small rubber mat to fasten the Trackpad on top of the Kinesis for a while, hope it works.
About your mod thingy, I'm reading it a bit at a time lest I get too excited and do something expensive. :P
Post by: Input Nirvana on Thu, 23 February 2012, 17:30:39
Quote from: boli;522856
IN, your sig is quite a treasure trove.
Meh, it has a lot of useful and interesting info everybody with a Kinesis should be aware of. And people without a Kinesis :)
Now THESE are treasure troves:
http://www.maxim.com/girls/videos-hot-girls-washing-cars-0
http://www.fhm.com/girls
Post by: Input Nirvana on Sat, 25 February 2012, 02:10:02
So key issues #1 and #2 can be resolved with some restrictions on color. They can be PBT or (did you say blank doubleshot?) ABS. Now this just begs the question about the rest of the keys being PBT....
Issue #3 - We need to clarify/keep checking on the sphericals (height issues?)?
Issue #4 - The 4 tall thumb keys....NEMESIS!
I like the kittys for the thumb keys...they have a bit of understated style.... :)
Post by: oneproduct on Sat, 25 February 2012, 17:08:53
Quote from: input nirvana;525280
or (did you say blank doubleshot?) ABS
Yes, they are blank, but they are doubleshot just to keep the same thickness as the other keys.
Quote from: input nirvana;525280
I like the kittys for the thumb keys...they have a bit of understated style.... :)
Please help by ordering some longcat and, more importantly, tacgnol <-- that guy is going to get cut unless we get 27 more orders :(
Go go Kinesis users! http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?26824-TACGNOL-ADDED!-Meme-keys-group-buy
Post by: Input Nirvana on Sat, 25 February 2012, 23:03:58
Quote from: oneproduct;525957
Yes, they are blank, but they are doubleshot just to keep the same thickness as the other keys.
Please help by ordering some longcat and, more importantly, tacgnol <-- that guy is going to get cut unless we get 27 more orders :(
Go go Kinesis users! http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?26824-TACGNOL-ADDED!-Meme-keys-group-buy
I am totally interested in doubleshot blanks for ALL keys. Where can I see pics of the colors? The Kinesis deserves higher quality key caps.
The cats are cool, and are coolest as a set. I could be good for a set, possibly a second.
Post by: oneproduct on Sun, 26 February 2012, 02:09:38
I'm not sure if there are minimum order requirements for these blank keys.
Quote
The cats are cool, and are coolest as a set. I could be good for a set, possibly a second.
Go for two! :) If we don't get enough orders for the black on white cat there won't be any sets at all!
Post by: Input Nirvana on Mon, 27 February 2012, 02:39:54
Quote from: oneproduct;526491
The colors will match the ones that are being used in the main sets which you can see here: http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?20485-Double-shot-replacements-ROUND-FOUR!-6-days-2-go!
I'm not sure if there are minimum order requirements for these blank keys.
Go for two! :) If we don't get enough orders for the black on white cat there won't be any sets at all!
I only spent a short time on the thread, and then on the wiki-order page (a crazy amount of over-info...I love it!), but I'm going to try and determine if it is possible to replace all the key caps on a Kinesis, although maybe not the 4 extra-tall thumb-modifiers with the doubleshot blanks. I like the doubleshots the early Kinesis boards came with, but not the fact the 'skirt' was shorter, and I don't care for having legends, but I like the thicker key caps, there is a slight difference in sound and they are obviously smoother.
If it is possible, maybe someone may choose to get doubleshot kegended, doubleshot non-legended, or PBT keycaps for their Kinesis...they have till the end of February to place the order.
Post by: boli on Mon, 27 February 2012, 03:30:21
Quote
ROUND3/ALPHA
ROUND3/COLEMAK
BLANKPBT/R1U125/BLACK 4
BLANKPBT/R3U125X/BLACK
BLANKPBT/R3U125/BLACK 2
That is one (default grey) Colemak set (letters and numbers only), as well as 2 sets of the 1.25 units wide side keys in black blank PBT.
I think I'll only use the letter keys of the Colemak set, because the 3# and 8* keys are the wrong profile for a Kinesis... and one set of side keys might be used on another Kinesis, that's why I get 2 sets.
BTW the Alpha set is a lot cheaper ($39 vs. $83) than a TKL set. A TKL set would only add arrows and Home and PageUp keys fitting for a Kinesis Advantage, so it's not worth it IMO.
I'm not sure you can get a full blank Kinesis set for a reasonable price, because you might have to buy 2 numpad sets in order to get the long thumb keys (NumPadEnter specifically). The other stuff should be OK, like Kinesis Delete and Enter should be R4U200H I think. But then again, I haven't checked in detail.
Post by: oneproduct on Mon, 27 February 2012, 07:36:01
Quote
ROUND3/ALPHACOLEMAK
Post by: boli on Mon, 27 February 2012, 10:56:21
I guess this second PM should take care of it:
Quote
ROUND3/ALPHA 0
ROUND3/COLEMAK 0
ROUND3/ALPHACOLEMAK
Post by: kps on Mon, 27 February 2012, 11:47:32
- you order at least 3 copies
- you assemble the set from keys that already exist (which would mean blanks for =/+ and so on),
OR
- your order a whole bunch of copies
I suggest you decide on and propose a 'Kinesis addon' set with the various 1.25 keys and thumb keys and such that are not part of the ALPHA sets, and see how many you'd have to order. SP profiles do include the tall keys. The DCS profile, with DSA for the home keys, is close to (if not exactly) the original Kinesis keys.
Post by: Input Nirvana on Mon, 27 February 2012, 11:58:56
At this time, I'm only interested in one set black set of keys with NO legends, I don't know if anyone else (at least 3 copies) is interested in that.
The SP profiles "do include the tall keys"? The 4 tall keys in the thumb clusters we have been grousing about?
As far as the home keys, that seems like a reasonable replacement, or sticking with that particular row designated keys (G, H)
Post by: kps on Mon, 27 February 2012, 12:22:58
Post by: kps on Mon, 27 February 2012, 13:01:28
[ATTACH=CONFIG]41962[/ATTACH]
I'm not sure how realistic this to Round 4 is, unless someone wants a couple dozen of them.
Post by: boli on Mon, 27 February 2012, 13:22:36
Quote from: kps;528203
I think that the following special keys, on top of ALPHA and CURARROWS sets, would fill a Kinesis.
(Attachment) 41962[/ATTACH]
I'm not sure how realistic this to Round 4 is, unless someone wants a couple dozen of them.
Yeah that'd be almost the exact set needed for a Kinesis Advantage. All except the Backspace and Space, that would have to be NumPadEnter Profile (unless a vertical DCS R4 has this profile?)
Personally I'd prefer to skip the sphericals (DSA) and go with the default DCS Row 3 keys from an ALPHA set instead. Also ideally I'd like 2x Cmd and 1x Option and instead of 1x Ctrl and 2x Alt.
Quote from: input nirvana;528126
At this time, I'm only interested in one set black set of keys with NO legends, I don't know if anyone else (at least 3 copies) is interested in that.
For the sake of quickly getting something together for round 4 I'd take one blank black PBT Kinesis set (no sphericals needed), so together with Input Nirvana we'd have 2. Update: I should clarify I mean only the additional Kinesis keys, not including the ALPHA or CURARROWS sets.
Anyone for a 3rd set?
Post by: oneproduct on Mon, 27 February 2012, 14:08:42
BLANKPBT/R3U125/BLACK 6
BLANKPBT/R1U125/BLACK 2
But if they do indeed have the tall profile keys it may be worth asking about those.
Outside of those I think it would be way too expensive. You can get a cheap PBT set elsewhere to cover all the alpha keys (replacing the sphericals) and most of the numbers and then go to WASDkeyboards to get the few missing ones in ABS. I really only care that the keys that I use most are PBT, if at all. For the numpad enters I'm getting longcat and tacgnol from the meme key group buy. :)
So that being said, if anything I think that we should focus on getting the order I listed above into enough quantities so that it actually happens and maybe the tall keys if possible.
Post by: boli on Mon, 27 February 2012, 14:40:22
Update: Just PMed 7bit asking on his opinion for the possibility of these 3 Kinesis sets:
- A: The 8 1.25 wide keys
- B: The 4 tall thumb keys
- C: The Kinesis full add-on set as suggested by kps
Post by: Input Nirvana on Mon, 27 February 2012, 16:41:29
I also need to kick around the idea of a few extra keys for the added keys to the Kinesis, I contacted Sordna to see what he used/thinks is best. I've never crossed that bridge with my mods yet.
Post by: rirakuma on Tue, 28 February 2012, 22:34:55
This is a great project. I'm so glad I found you guys, been dreaming of this myself, so I would like to help out if I can.
I can put money towards a group buy, either blank keycaps or Colemak.
I will be watching this thread, hope I can be of assistance in anyway.
Post by: Input Nirvana on Wed, 29 February 2012, 01:27:58
I still haven't seen the entire kit and what the keys are/cost, but we have a couple more days to see what we can do on this.
Welcome aboard!
Post by: gnorsilva on Wed, 29 February 2012, 02:15:11
I'd like to get two full sets of blank black keys but with blank blues for the home row. Willing to contribute to the group buy.
Just a bit overwhelmed by all the different combinations of keys and sizes, so not sure how much that would cost or if I'm even posting in the right thread!
P.s. Once I get the blanks I'll be converting to Colemak :)
Post by: Input Nirvana on Wed, 29 February 2012, 04:53:40
To put this together with this particular group key buy on such short notice, can Oneproduct/Boli/Kps possibly list out the purchase of the key caps? Like it would be sent to 7bit as an order? As a blank order, and as a Colemak legended order? I don't know if color or doubleshot ABS verses PBT will make a difference on sets (ie: would the kits be different if you ordered it as a doubleshot ABS than as a PBT?). Obviously mixing colors may change the way it's ordered.
It seems we may have half a dozen sets (total)...I'm not clear on what the minimums may be, or if we need to all order the same, etc....maybe we need to wait this one out? Are there other options that Oneproduct mentioned? Boli, did you ever hear back from 7bit?
I'm sorry I'm not more put together with this...it popped up suddenly on our radar, and I'm not even sure if everything matches the way we want. I am mostly gone for another couple days, but will be involved more by the weekend...just in the nick of time!
Post by: boli on Wed, 29 February 2012, 05:31:45
Post by: oneproduct on Wed, 29 February 2012, 06:26:51
If we do double shot ABS it will be much cheaper because we can get an alpha-numerial kit (number row, all letters, punctuation) for a reasonable price because they match with sets that can be ordered through the group buy whereas for PBT ones we'd be the only ones ordering them really.
So if you want to get a whole set in double shot ABS it's possible (with Colemak instead of qwerty at no additional cost) BUT if you want to do PBT (as I do) then it's better to buy a blank set from elsewhere at a cheaper price and just get the PBT keys that we couldn't find elsewhere from this group buy, which are the 8 side keys of size 1.25 and the 4 tall keys in the thumb cluster (but these tall keys aren't available in the group buy at the moment).
There would be a few other keys missing, such as the 2x numpad enter which you couldn't get from a single blank PBT set. I'll try to figure out what would be missing after a blank 87/104 set that you could order from imsto or qtan and convert it into a round 4 order.
EDIT: Darn, I just remembered everyone talking about how it was literally impossible to get a blank black set of PBT keys. For no particular reason, KBC sells blank white and both black and white engraved, but not blank black.
Post by: oneproduct on Wed, 29 February 2012, 07:11:49
//letters and numbers, pick one of the following - $42 total
NOIR/ALPHA 1
NOIR/ALPHACOLEMAK 1
NOIR/ALPHADVORAK 1
//the arrow keys - $3 total
NOIR/CURARROWS 1
//the four keys next to the arrow keys - $1.2 each
BLANK/R4U100/BLACK 4
//OPTIONAL: these would replace the labelled 3 and 8 number keys with blank keys of proper profile - $1.2 each
BLANK/R2U100/BLACK 2
//the keys along the sides of the keyboard - $2 each
BLANK/R1U125/BLACK 2
BLANK/R3U125/BLACK 6
//the standard size thumb cluster keys - $1.2 each
BLANK/R1U100/BLACK 2
BLANK/R3U100/BLACK 2
//numpad enter I think. It's considered row 1 rather than row 2 right? Row 2 is also available if I'm wrong - $3.6 each
BLANK/R4U200V/BLACK 2
//numpad 0 $3.6 each
BLANK/R4U200H/BLACK 2
Total
$42
$3
8*$2
8*$1.2 (or 10*$1.2 if you want to replace the labbeled 3 and 8 keys with blanks of proper profile)
4*$3.6
------
$85
So you would send this message to 7bit_R4 (http://geekhack.org/private.php?do=newpm&u=11268)
NOIR/ALPHACOLEMAK 1
NOIR/CURARROWS 1
BLANK/R4U100/BLACK 4
BLANK/R2U100/BLACK 2
BLANK/R1U125/BLACK 2
BLANK/R3U125/BLACK 6
BLANK/R1U100/BLACK 2
BLANK/R3U100/BLACK 2
BLANK/R4U200V/BLACK 2
BLANK/R4U200H/BLACK 2
EMAIL youremail@yourdomain.com
Someone should double check if I picked the right row profiles maybe. The row profile is shown in each key order by BLANK/R# <--
Note that this still leaves the tall thumb cluster keys unaccounted for. Also, I'm not sure if the side keys actually exist or not, or whether 7bit just listed every possible combination of row and size...
Post by: boli on Wed, 29 February 2012, 11:56:29
Quote from: input nirvana;530617
It seems we may have half a dozen sets (total)...I'm not clear on what the minimums may be, or if we need to all order the same, etc....maybe we need to wait this one out? Are there other options that Oneproduct mentioned? Boli, did you ever hear back from 7bit?
No, haven't heard anything from 7bit.
Speaking about half a dozen sets, I don't want a full blank set, just those keys that aren't in an AlphaColemak set (this wasn't clear in my previous post before I edited it). As there's no such thing ATM I'll pass, or rather leave the order I placed alone (AlphaColemak + 8 side keys).
Quote from: oneproduct;530647
Someone should double check if I picked the right row profiles maybe.
//the four keys next to the arrow keys - $1.2 each
BLANK/R1U100/BLACK 4
These should be R4 I think (when counting from the top, unlike WASDkeyboards)
Quote
//numpad enter I think. It's considered row 1 rather than row 2 right? Row 2 is also available if I'm wrong - $3.6 each
BLANK/R1U200V/BLACK 2
I'd have expected this to the R4 - lowest row, but then again I'm not even sure the Vertical really matches a NumPadEnter profile.
Quote
//numpad 0 $3.6 each
BLANK/R1U200H/BLACK 2
Shouldn't this be R4 too?
Post by: boli on Wed, 29 February 2012, 12:09:02
Quote from: oneproduct;530647
Someone should double check if I picked the right row profiles maybe.
//the four keys next to the arrow keys - $1.2 each
BLANK/R1U100/BLACK 4
These should be R4 I think (when counting from the top, unlike WASDkeyboards)
Quote
//numpad enter I think. It's considered row 1 rather than row 2 right? Row 2 is also available if I'm wrong - $3.6 each
BLANK/R1U200V/BLACK 2
I'd have expected this to the R4 - lowest row, but then again I'm not even sure the Vertical really matches a NumPadEnter profile.
Quote
//numpad 0 $3.6 each
BLANK/R1U200H/BLACK 2
Shouldn't this be R4 too?
Post by: hayesdaniel on Thu, 01 March 2012, 19:30:49
Post by: oneproduct on Fri, 02 March 2012, 00:09:25
Post by: Dox on Fri, 02 March 2012, 15:32:16
Post by: Input Nirvana on Fri, 02 March 2012, 20:26:17
Quote from: Dox;533341
I got the keyboard from sordna's kinesis try and forward tour and I can confirm that the high thumb keys on the 20 years old keyboard ARE Signature Plastics DCS row 5.
HOLY ****!!!
Can you believe it??? Pics!!!
So, does that mean:
-ALL key cap issues are addressed on the Kinesis?
-We now know what every EXACT key replacement is?
-No key caps are "custom"?
How do you like the Kinesis? Maybe an Ergo-Dox tweak or two? OR maybe a Kinesis tweakie? LOL
Post by: sordna on Sat, 03 March 2012, 00:20:37
Post by: Dox on Sat, 03 March 2012, 00:27:37
Pics!!!
[ATTACH=CONFIG]42515[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]42516[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]42517[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]42518[/ATTACH]
Post by: Input Nirvana on Sat, 03 March 2012, 01:23:54
Dox, thank you for putting the star on the top of the tree! Crazy how it got figured out, too, heh heh :)
I guess I should go back and edit the big key cap page, or just post there to find the exact replacement list here. I'm limited to iPhone web access for a while, so most in depth posting/graphics/naked girls will be at a minimum. The post from Oneproduct, does it have the correct key cap designations for exact replacement now? (Ignoring color, type of plastic, legends, etc.)
Post by: boli on Sun, 04 March 2012, 05:04:32
Quote from: oneproduct;530638
If we do double shot ABS it will be much cheaper because we can get an alpha-numerial kit (number row, all letters, punctuation) for a reasonable price because they match with sets that can be ordered through the group buy whereas for PBT ones we'd be the only ones ordering them really.
So if you want to get a whole set in double shot ABS it's possible (with Colemak instead of qwerty at no additional cost) BUT if you want to do PBT (as I do) then it's better to buy a blank set from elsewhere at a cheaper price and just get the PBT keys that we couldn't find elsewhere from this group buy, which are the 8 side keys of size 1.25
Hmm, I couldn't find anywhere what material the ROUND3 doubleshots are. I assumed they were PBT, but if I understand you correctly they are in fact ABS? (If so I better adjust my order of the 1.25 wide side keys to match)
Quote from: input nirvana;533742
The single shot key caps have a taller skirt than the double shot key caps. You can see the extensive measurements and concise graphics Kps made earlier in this thread (posts #52, 54, 58). Same key cap, just a taller skirt.
I see, so that is where the difference comes from. Not an issue at all then! :)
Quote
Crazy how it got figured out, too, heh heh :)
So we have:
- Alpha keys, extra bottom row, most thumb keys either from WASDkeyboards or round 4 group buy, with the exception of the 3 and 8 key (3 and 8 are only an issue if you want legends, no issue for blank key caps).
- Side keys (1.25 wide) from round 4 group buy
- Tall thumb keys from Signature Plastics
Post by: dorkvader on Sun, 04 March 2012, 12:04:54
Quote from: boli;534761
Hmm, I couldn't find anywhere what material the ROUND3 doubleshots are. I assumed they were PBT, but if I understand you correctly they are in fact ABS? (If so I better adjust my order of the 1.25 wide side keys to match)As far as I can tell, all doubleshots are ABS. I know for a fact that SP only does doubleshot ABS, so the round3 keys must be. I don't have any firsthand knowledge, as I didn't participate in round3, though.
Post by: kps on Sun, 04 March 2012, 12:45:23
Quote from: dorkvader;534975
As far as I can tell, all doubleshots are ABS.
Yeah, PBT shrinks as it sets, so it's not practical to double-shot it.
Post by: boli on Sun, 04 March 2012, 13:09:45
Post by: Input Nirvana on Mon, 05 March 2012, 02:35:50
Quote from: boli;534761
So we have:Correct?
- Alpha keys, extra bottom row, most thumb keys either from WASDkeyboards or round 4 group buy, with the exception of the 3 and 8 key (3 and 8 are only an issue if you want legends, no issue for blank key caps).
- Side keys (1.25 wide) from round 4 group buy
- Tall thumb keys from Signature Plastics
- Is this correct? ^^^
- The tall thumb keys from SP, can they be blank doubleshot?
- The Group Buy 4, (ABS doubleshot) is that coming from SP?
- Now the keys are all figured out, is this something WASD could put together?
- Boli...any info from 7bit?
*Boli, "E" on the thumb cluster layout? Share???
Post by: boli on Mon, 05 March 2012, 03:16:52
Quote from: input nirvana;535519
- Is this correct? ^^^
I obviously think so, but having it double-checked by someone else can't hurt. :)
Quote
- The tall thumb keys from SP, can they be blank doubleshot?
- The Group Buy 4, (ABS doubleshot) is that coming from SP?
No idea. Dorkvader mentioned the leftover round3 doubleshots were from SP, dunno about the new round4 caps.
Quote
- Now the keys are all figured out, is this something WASD could put together?
- Boli...any info from 7bit?
Still haven't gotten a reply from 7bit. I assume we'll have to make do with getting the 1.25 wide side keys this time around, and will have to get SP DCS row 5 some other way.
Haven't heard from Weyman either, the last he wrote was that he'll make an extra layout template for us Kinesis Advantage users. I assume he's very busy with the fully custom ISO keyboards he introduced recently.
Was your idea to have Weyman order those 1.25 unit wide side keys, as well as the DCS row 5 from SP (or whoever makes them) so he can offer complete sets to us Kinesis users? I remember he won't laser key caps we send him because of the risk losing them on the way.
Quote
"E" on the thumb cluster layout? Share???You can find out symphonic's and my own trials at the Colemak forum in Optimizing the Maltron layout (http://forum.colemak.com/viewtopic.php?pid=9453#p9453). The idea is taking the Colemak layout, putting E on the left thumb, moving a few other letters around (as few as possible) and hopefully getting a good Malt-like layout.
At this stage we're just messing around, though a few of the basic ideas seem quite promising, and they feel alright in a quick tryout. Here's an example:
Code: [Select]
qwfp * j luy;
arst g h ndio
zxcv b k m,./
e Space
The * spot is unused. If I end up switching to this I might put Tab there, as I noticed during the TrulyErgonomic test that having Tab operated by the index finger feels very nice.I'd like to use Michael ****en's layout analyzer/optimizer on those ideas, once it supports putting letters on the left thumb. The web analyzer as well as carPalx don't seem to be all that well suited to the task.
Post by: dorkvader on Mon, 05 March 2012, 14:21:53
Quote from: input nirvana;535519
- The Group Buy 4, (ABS doubleshot) is that coming from SP?Yep, since devlin are expensive, unless something radical changes, Round4 should be through SP. I guess I'm the bridge to the GB forum? :P
Post by: Input Nirvana on Mon, 05 March 2012, 16:37:45
Thank you for all the answers!
Boli-
Regarding the Malt Optimization thread on the Colemak forum, I hadn't checked up on that thread recently...and look what you guys have done! I think there is a major Kinesis-specific layout hidden in some on that work. In my split Kinesis mod article, I have a header and pics for the custom-optimized layout that should be developed. I'll need to link the Colemak thread, it's just that juicy :)
Post by: boli on Mon, 05 March 2012, 17:48:25
Quote from: dorkvader;535958
Yep, since devlin are expensive, unless something radical changes, Round4 should be through SP. I guess I'm the bridge to the GB forum? :P
Cheers! Wut there's stuff outside the ergo/layout subforums? ;) Seriously though, that round 4 thread is massive. Just saw posts about 4 separate group buys and whatnot, will need to read on. :)
Quote from: input nirvana;536100
Regarding the Malt Optimization thread on the Colemak forum, I hadn't checked up on that thread recently...and look what you guys have done! I think there is a major Kinesis-specific layout hidden in some on that work. In my split Kinesis mod article, I have a header and pics for the custom-optimized layout that should be developed.
I suppose you mean the "KEYBOARD KEY LAYOUT MODIFICATIONS" section? I was hoping for something more specific in there. ;) But it's nice to see you're also fascinated by the Malt premise of putting a letter on a thumb key. :) Other Kinesis specific layouts such as Arensito (which features a single thumb Shift, something tricky to combine with thumb letter+space) or the MTGAP Kinesis versions are also interesting... the latter might become more so once left thumb keys can be included in the optimizations/analysis.
Post by: sordna on Mon, 05 March 2012, 20:27:00
Post by: Input Nirvana on Mon, 05 March 2012, 22:43:34
I think that a majority of the performance gains are from adding only 2 thumb keys and that radically changes the Kinesis. More than 2 are still better though. I noted adding thumb keys in the "aircraft carrier" thread. :)
Boli:
Yea, it's chicken **** I don't have real, original content in the keyboard layout section yet. It is meant as a placeholder until I got around to playing with putting "E" on the left thumb cluster. But soon I'll link the threads/posts on GH and Colemak (and their links) as they develop/clarify a bit more.
Post by: dorkvader on Tue, 06 March 2012, 08:24:25
Quote from: sordna;536329
Once you add some thumb keys to the Kinesis it all falls into place, I can assign at least 2 letters on my thumb keys :-) Love my extra thumb keys, but I'll be adding palm keys very soon.I assume the palm keys are for control?
Quote from: boli;536173
Cheers! Wut there's stuff outside the ergo/layout subforums? ;) Seriously though, that round 4 thread is massive. Just saw posts about 4 separate group buys and whatnot, will need to read on. :)Yeah, there's a GB for red on black "ragnorock" which was invented, added to r4, then spun off. Since SP quoted lower prices to him, 7bit wants to "spin off" all the styles in an attempt to get lower pricing. Ofcourse the "special" addon kits are still expensive.
Also, since there are a number of similar GB's being run by people who want their moogle kits NOW, those have been detached. I've already got some excellent RGBY, and I'm participating in another RGBY, as well as WYSE (and maybe moogle) kit GB's.
Hah! I should write up a round4 timeline with all the details.
Post by: sordna on Tue, 06 March 2012, 10:05:49
Quote from: dorkvader;536792
I assume the palm keys are for control?
No, they will be for shift and/or access to the 2nd layer.
Post by: Input Nirvana on Wed, 07 March 2012, 14:52:32
I noticed that we, as a group, have made some very big headway with Kinesis issues recently. We now have almost fully addressed every aspect of the Kinesis (as broken down in the Split Kinesis Mod article) other than firmware. Just a few more incidental steps/trials/fine tuning, and the Kinesis project will have been effectively reverse engineered, upgraded, customized and rebuilt. This has been my goal from my first post (of 2,500 so far) over 2.5 years ago. There was almost NO Kinesis activity when I joined.
A few more months with practical applications of these advances, and my tenure here at Geekhack should be slowing to a graceful close. I had no idea the path would be so involved and convoluted. LOL
Post by: boli on Mon, 12 March 2012, 03:11:47
Code: [Select]
Order-ID |Description |Price|Qty|Pcs|Total
BLANK/R1U125/BLACK |Blank 1.25 units (row 1 / Function row) /50 | 2.00| 4| 4| 8.00
BLANK/R3U125/BLACK |Blank 1.25 units (row 3 / ASDFGH row) /50 | 2.00| 2| 2| 4.00
BLANK/R3U125X/BLACK|Blank 1.25 units (10x row 3 / ASDFGH row) /50|18.00| 1| 10|18.00
ROUND3/ALPHACOLEMAK|! A-Z and Punctuation keys COLEMAK |69.00| 1| 53|69.00
Total | | | | 69|99.00
On another note, I'll ask Weyman about a the Kinesis template again.
Post by: Input Nirvana on Mon, 12 March 2012, 18:48:06
Post by: Input Nirvana on Tue, 13 March 2012, 21:44:17
I guess I went to sleep last night and woke up this morning a cheap-ass.
I'm thinking about sanding a keycap per day and having smooth, legendless, pimp-daddy keycaps in 68 days all for the cost of a few pieces of sand paper.
Post by: boli on Wed, 14 March 2012, 03:22:20
I'm currently checking out the prices of the other styles, here's the update (I checked by placing a preorder since the pricelist (http://deskthority.net/wiki/Round4_Pricelist) used to be off at times, but ATM it matches the email). I also had to check if the price was a mistake and alpha + colemak separately would come cheaper (it does!).
Code: [Select]
RETRO/ALPHA |! A-Z and Punctuation keys |29.00| 1| 53| 29.00
RETRO/COLEMAK |! Colemak language kit |29.00| 1| 14| 29.00
RETRO/ALPHACOLEMAK |! A-Z and Punctuation keys COLEMAK |64.00| 1| 53| 64.00
ROUND3/ALPHA |! A-Z and Punctuation keys |29.00| 1| 53| 29.00
ROUND3/COLEMAK |! Colemak language kit |29.00| 1| 14| 29.00
ROUND3/ALPHACOLEMAK|! A-Z and Punctuation keys COLEMAK |64.00| 1| 53| 64.00
SPH/ALPHA |! A-Z and Punctuation keys |29.00| 1| 54| 29.00
SPH/COLEMAK |Colemak language kit | 9.00| 1| 14| 9.00
SPH/ALPHACOLEMAK |! A-Z and Punctuation keys COLEMAK |54.00| 1| 54| 54.00
A fully customized set from WASDkeyboards (if Weyman comes through) would be $60, and apparently he might offer PBT keys in 4 to 6 months, so the WASD option is very tempting!
I might cancel all of my round 4 GB orders other than the 1.25 wide side keys, we'll see. I asked 7bit to clarify about the overpriced Colemak options.
Post by: Input Nirvana on Wed, 14 March 2012, 03:50:51
My thought:
Is the group buy (blanks) any cheaper than from SP directly? I say buy exactly one exact Kinesis set from SP and tell Weyman he is not responsible for a laser engrave/etch problem. I mean really, this is what needs to happen in the real world. We need to know what one exact Kinesis replacement set costs from SP. I will buy a blank set, have him engrave it. If it's good, you buy it, if there is a problem, I'll keep it since I don't care about legends. Good idea huh?
Post by: boli on Wed, 14 March 2012, 03:55:33
Post by: Input Nirvana on Wed, 14 March 2012, 04:36:54
2- Cost for Weyman to put on legends.
Maybe buying 2-5 blank sets will help pricing?
I don't have time for doing this.
Post by: boli on Thu, 15 March 2012, 03:13:53
Quote
This is wrong, I will correct the prices. They will be lower.
Expect $54 for ALPHACOLEMAK at most, maybe less.
SPH/COLEMAK might be a bit more expensive and SPH/ALPHA a bit cheaper.
To bring prices really down, please order more!!!
The prices haven't changed much yet though.
Post by: boli on Thu, 15 March 2012, 03:29:28
Quote from: input nirvana;545556
1- We need a price from SP for the exact replacement set in both doubleshot and PBT.
2- Cost for Weyman to put on legends.
Maybe buying 2-5 blank sets will help pricing?
I don't have time for doing this.:)
A Kinesis set (with cylindrical instead of spherical home keys) from SP would be something like this (please check and confirm/point out mistakes):
- 10 DCS row 1 1x1
- 12 DCS row 2 1x1
- 12 DCS row 3 1x1
- 18 DCS row 4 1x1
- 4 DCS row 5 1x1
- 2 DCS row 1 1x1.25
- 6 DCS row 3 1x1.25
- 2 NumPad+, maybe something like DCS row 3(?) 2x1 (vertical)
- 2 DCS row 4 1x2
If you pm me the email of SP's contact (Melissa I think?) I'll ask.
Post by: Input Nirvana on Thu, 15 March 2012, 21:11:46
We need to make a KPS diagram and schedule with the Signature Plastics key caps designations for the Kinesis. Then post in this thread and the Split Kinesis Mod wiki so it will be easily available for future reference. It should show the sphericals and the cylindrical equivalents for the home row. If someone doesn't get to to it, I'll do it eventually when I'm back in the next month or so.
Post by: boli on Fri, 16 March 2012, 10:40:06
What do you mean by schedule?
I just sent an email to Melissa asking about prices for blank ABS and PBT sets.
But do you think Weyman from WASDkeyboards would even laser key caps we bought from somewhere else? Last I heard he wouldn't do it because of "could be lost during shipment" concerns. Also since he'll be offering PBT keys in a few months he might tell us to wait... (he has not replied to my last few mails so I'm not even trying to ask).
Post by: boli on Sat, 17 March 2012, 04:47:04
Quote
Thank you for the request! Our pricing is volume sensitive, so I have given
you a range of prices. Pricing for ABS or PBT is the same. These are all
blank keycaps - no printing.The vertical keycaps on the num pad are a row 2/3 keycap for the + and a row
- 5 sets: $133.09 / set
- 10 sets: $75.13 / set
- 15 sets: $55.80 / set
- 25 sets: $40.34 / set
- 50 sets: $28.75 / set
4/4 keycap for the Enter key. Pricing above does not include shipping costs.
Let me know if you need anything else!
Melissa Petersen
Signature Plastics LLC
Post by: Input Nirvana on Sat, 17 March 2012, 13:05:32
I'll make sure the diagram and list are available together.
YAAAYYYYYY! For the first time in history the blank Kinesis key caps are known, shown, sourced and priced! THANKS BOLI!
Q: The key caps quoted are singleshot ABS (not double shot)?
If Weyman will have PBT in a few months, that seems to make the process easier. After all this time, I could wait. I would like samples of all 3 key caps to compare (ABS single, ABS double, PBT).
Post by: dorkvader on Sat, 17 March 2012, 18:55:04
Post by: Input Nirvana on Sat, 17 March 2012, 20:10:48
I have both ABS and doubleshot ABS, and prefer the doubleshot. I don't have PBT to compare with yet.
Post by: boli on Sun, 18 March 2012, 13:04:27
Also, SP's prices are quite high, given we might be able to get fully custom lasered ABS caps from WASDkeyboards for $60. It doesn't have the 4 tall thumb keys, and the 8 1.25-wide side keys aren't exactly the right shape, but all that for $60 is still hellofa good price. :)
Edit: I did not specify single-shot or double-shot when I asked Melissa. I wrote a follow-up mail to ask. I'd also like clarification on the prices, if the number given is the upper or lower bound. That is, if 1 to 5 sets cost $133, or if that price is for 5 to 9 sets. I assume it's the first option, otherwise we'd be missing pricing for < 5 sets. This'd mean that anything less than 6 sets costs ridiculously much.
Post by: dorkvader on Sun, 18 March 2012, 16:41:47
That said, I'd love doubleshot blanks, if only for the irony of it. After heavy use (rootwyrm style) they'd look like a clickclack, too.
Post by: Input Nirvana on Sun, 18 March 2012, 23:21:46
The Kinesis doubleshots are just very 'slightly' nicer, not a big deal though. But enough that I'm interested in getting blank doubleshots for my flagship custom Kinesis. I'm trying to make it as nice as possible as a 'Concept'. That's one reason I may cast an entire set of keys, just to maximize the quality feel. I don't know if PBT feels any different.
Post by: dorkvader on Mon, 19 March 2012, 00:02:14
Post by: boli on Mon, 19 March 2012, 02:54:05
Code: [Select]
All blank keycaps are single shot. We don't manufacture 2-shot blank keycaps
as there is no difference from a single shot keycap.
Price breaks are below:
1 set $596.83 per set
2 sets $305.99 per set
3 sets $210.38 per set
4 sets $162.07 per set
5 to 9 sets $133.09 per set
10 to 14 sets $75.12 per set
15 to 24 sets $55.80 per set
25 to 49 sets $40.34 per set
50 to 74 sets $28.75 per set
75 to 99 sets $24.89 per setOuch, so the prices given earlier were lower bounds, meaning we'd have to order at least 10 for an acceptable price (IMO anyway). Small wonder group buys are interesting. :)
Post by: Input Nirvana on Mon, 19 March 2012, 04:19:56
Boli: I thought the blank ABS doubleshots in group buy 4 were from SP? Maybe I misread a post about that? I realize blank doubleshots are an interestingly odd item. Who is 7bit buying them from I wonder? We need a price for a Kinesis set, no extra keys, blah blah blah.
Otherwise maybe wait for Weyman to get PBT. Or, Input Nirvanas Key Emporium and Manufacturing (INKEM) coming summer 2012! If you follow the MYOC thread....can make some neat stuff!
Post by: boli on Tue, 20 March 2012, 03:43:10
Quote from: input nirvana;550375
Boli: I thought the blank ABS doubleshots in group buy 4 were from SP? Maybe I misread a post about that? Who is 7bit buying them from I wonder?
No idea, the wiki (http://deskthority.net/wiki/Doubleshot_Replacements_Round_4#Order-IDs) links to Signature Plastics DCS-family (http://deskthority.net/wiki/Signature_Plastics_DCS-family), so I assume the blanks are singleshot ABS from SP.
Quote from: input nirvana;550375
We need a price for a Kinesis set, no extra keys, blah blah blah.
The wiki says 7bit's prices are bulk for 25 or more each, which according to Melissa's reply above would be $40 for a full set (though I doubt we'd get anywhere close to 25 orders).
If you wanted you could compose a Kinesis set by ordering 68 individual key caps (or an alphanum set plus some individual keys), though at roughly $2 per key cap that'd result in a total cost of $136ish (which would be close to the price of 5 to 9 sets at SP directly).
Post by: dorkvader on Tue, 20 March 2012, 09:11:24
Quote from: boli;551274
I doubt we'd get anywhere close to 25 ordersI think you'd be surprised. We didn't think we'd get more than about 10 for the ergoDOX. There are a lot of people with Kinesis on this forum.
Post by: boli on Tue, 20 March 2012, 13:06:59
Quote from: dorkvader;551369
I think you'd be surprised. We didn't think we'd get more than about 10 for the ergoDOX. There are a lot of people with Kinesis on this forum.
Maybe. I'm just not so hot on blank keys now that I know what WASDkeyboards can do with a laser... otherwise I might have done a group buy or at least interest check myself.
Post by: Input Nirvana on Tue, 20 March 2012, 23:14:38
1)WASD ABS,
2)WASD PBT towards the end of the year,
3)If there is a group buy put together.
We all already have ABS, so if there is a group buy I would really prefer PBT (thanks Dorkv), and I want blanks. If someone does an interest check or starts a buy and you don't see me in on it, let. me know, I'm in for one set. I have no problem waiting till this fall, I've got other things to do till then :)
Post by: sordna on Wed, 21 March 2012, 04:04:13
:-)
Post by: Input Nirvana on Wed, 21 March 2012, 04:12:03
Quote from: sordna;552249
Can you find me PBT, textured/matte arcade buttons ?
:-)
Q:
1) color?
2) WASD lasee engraved?
3) back filled with putty?
Probably group buy #22, summer 2014.
Post by: faffer on Thu, 22 March 2012, 16:32:33
Post by: dorkvader on Fri, 23 March 2012, 00:03:26
Post by: Input Nirvana on Mon, 26 March 2012, 13:07:12
- When I list the symbols, I used both the shifted and unshifted symbols for that key, just to make it easier to see.
- The "International Key" produces §± in the U.S. but has \| symbol repeated on the key like the actual \| key.
- The legends are based on U.S. and QWERTY. The important information is the actual key caps that are needed, not the legends...they are just for reference.
ORDERING INFORMATION:
A Kinesis set (with cylindrical instead of spherical home keys) as manufactured by Signature Plastics:
[LIST=|INDENT=1]
- 10 DCS row 1 1x1..........1 2 4 5 6 7 9 0 Home PageUp
- 12 DCS row 2 1x1..........Q W E R T Y I O U P 3 8
- *12 DCS row 3 1x1........A S D F G H J K L ;: End PageDown
- 18 DCS row 4 1x1..........Z X C V B N M ,< .> /? `~ \| Larrow Rarrow Uarrow Darrow [[ ]]
- 4 DCS row 5 1x1............CTRL ALT/OPT Command/Win (the 4 keys at the top of the thumb clusters vary in function depending on OS used)
- 2 DCS row 1 1x1.25.......=+ -_
- 6 DCS row 3 1x1.25.......Tab \| CapLock '" Shift Shift
- 2 DCS row 4 1x2 (turned vertical) (NumPadZero).....Enter Delete
- 2 DCS row 4/4 1x2 vertical (NumPadEnter).....Space Backspace
To have the 8 home row keys as the original 'spherical' keycaps:
- *Only 4 DCS Row 3 1x1.... ....G H End PageDown
- Add 8 DSA Row 3 1x1...........A S D F J K L ;: (these may be a "Deep Dish" key cap)
I disregard the 'homing bump' option for the index fingers when using the spherical keys option (see DSA sheet)
A tactile homing "bump" or "bar" can be used on the index fingers of the home row if the spherical keys are not used. Hardly required since the keywells mostly guide your fingers to the correct locations:
- *Only 10 DCS row 3 1x1............................A S D G H K L ;: End PageDown
- Add 2 DCS row 3 1x1 with 'bump' or 'bar'....F J
These key caps are available as ABS or PBT (PBT is a nicer plastic).
The last choice is color.
- - - For the spherical, I need to confirm if the home row is a "deep dish" key cap. - - -
[ATTACH=CONFIG]46143[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=CONFIG]45824[/ATTACH]
Post by: fossala on Mon, 26 March 2012, 14:23:25
Post by: Input Nirvana on Mon, 26 March 2012, 15:29:28
Still to do:
- We have not yet addressed getting the sets with pad printed or dye sublimated legends (SP offerings). Probably not a direction worth going.
- Spherical home row option.
- WASD etched only
- WASD supplied, blank and etched pricing.
This is a lotta work. Thanks to everyone for this!
Post by: fossala on Mon, 26 March 2012, 15:47:27
Post by: Input Nirvana on Mon, 26 March 2012, 18:28:22
Post by: boli on Tue, 27 March 2012, 03:05:54
Quote from: input nirvana;557390
[LIST=|INDENT=1]
- 2 DCS row 4/4 1x2 vertical.....Enter Delete
I think this is not a vertical key, as that would be the wrong slope. Isn't it a horizontal R4 key turned 90 degrees, so only the legend is vertical?
Here's an adapted version of kps' chart with Signature Plastics naming:
(http://homepage.mac.com/boli/geekhack/Kinesis-kps-chart-adapted-for-SP.png)
Quote from: input nirvana;557600
I would think something being set up with WASD probably makes the most sense, unless there's something I'm not thinking of. Blanks, colors, etching...
Yes please, custom layouts FTW! :)
I sent this pic to Weyman as well, but he hasn't responded to my last few emails so I'm not getting my hopes up.
Post by: Input Nirvana on Tue, 27 March 2012, 13:48:09
Quote from: boli;557956
I think this is not a vertical key, as that would be the wrong slope. Isn't it a horizontal R4 key turned 90 degrees, so only the legend is vertical?
Here's an adapted version of kps' chart with Signature Plastics naming:Show Image(http://homepage.mac.com/boli/geekhack/Kinesis-kps-chart-adapted-for-SP.png)
Hmmm....
What I have from WASD a couple months ago...I know we discussed it in the thread...then there was some confusion when you made your order...I don't remember exactly what the answer was we thought we came up with...I'm not able to go through the whole thread (on iphone)...
I got the key designation from the email Melissa at SP sent you. Did I misunderstand what she wrote? I think the 4/4 means the direction of the slope, which would make the slope as a non-vertical key, BUT it's on its side...which is why it's in the "vertical" box on their order sheet.
I THINK: DCS 1x2 row 4=DCS 1x2 row 4/4 vertical SAME EXACT KEY. But the different designation indicates it is in a vertical configuration.
This is what I have from WASD a couple months ago:
The ENTER DELETE have "R1 2.0" on the bottom of the key I got from WASD.
The SPACE BACKSPACE have an "E" on the bottom of the key I got from WASD which means his "ENTER" keypad key.
---but his designation is different, and his R2 2.0 ENTER key does not match SP R2 key, but their R4 key.
Thanks for modifying Kps diagram...I hope he is tracking this thread!
Post by: Bravoecho on Tue, 27 March 2012, 16:51:53
Post by: Input Nirvana on Tue, 27 March 2012, 17:16:15
We know people want these or various combinations of these (so far):
- blank
- Colemak
- Dvorak only
- PBT
- blank to be etched/engraved by WASD KEYBOARDS
For the record, this is what's available from Kinesis:
Singleshot ABS keycaps that are...
1- Black or white keys with QWERTY
2- Black or white keys with QWERTY/DVORAK
Home row are blue sphericals.
Items we need to look into further for an interest check:
- Prices from Signature Plastics on legended ABS/PBT
- Prices from Signature Plastics on doubleshots
- Info from WASD Keyboards about supplying SP keycaps or direct equal for Kinesis replacement sets. (Will he do it, and about when)
- Info from WASD Keyboards about supplying PBT (Will he do it, and about when)
We have pricing from SP for blank ABS and PBT which combined with custom etching from WASD, probably covers 90% of what people would want.
Post by: boli on Tue, 27 March 2012, 18:09:47
Quote from: input nirvana;558351
Hmmm....
What I have from WASD a couple months ago...I know we discussed it in the thread...then there was some confusion when you made your order...I don't remember exactly what the answer was we thought we came up with...
Back then I ordered a NumPadPlus by mistake, rather than a (WASDkeyboards) R1-1x2, to use as Kinesis Delete/Enter:
NumPadPlus (no good):
(http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/n/u/numplus.jpg)
(WASDkeyboards) R1-1x2 (sort of like NumPadZero, used as Kinesis Delete/Enter; in SP lingo I think this is a R4-1x2):
(http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/r/1/r1-12-2.jpg)
WASD's NumPadEnter is used as Kinesis Backspace/Space, so that's easy:
(http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/n/u/numenter.jpg)
Quote
I got the key designation from the email Melissa at SP sent you. Did I misunderstand what she wrote? I think the 4/4 means the direction of the slope, which would make the slope as a non-vertical key, BUT it's on its side...which is why it's in the "vertical" box on their order sheet.
She said: The vertical keycaps on the num pad are a row 2/3 keycap for the + and a row 4/4 keycap for the Enter key
If SP's NumPadEnter and NumPadPlus are anything like WASD's, then we want a vertical r4/4, but not the vertical r2/3. Though until a minute ago I thought it was the other way around, so the chart above did not reflect that yet (it's updated now).
Quote
I THINK: DCS 1x2 row 4=DCS 1x2 row 4/4 vertical SAME EXACT KEY. But the different designation indicates it is in a vertical configuration.
I thought the main thing for a vertical key was that the cylindrical top surface is for a vertical cylinder, but I might be wrong. I'm just assuming due to my WASD experience. If my assumption is correct we definitely don't want such a key as Kinesis Delete/Enter, but a horizontal R4 instead.
Post by: Input Nirvana on Tue, 27 March 2012, 20:53:47
EDIT---
VERTICAL KEYS INFO
ENTER/DELETE - (WASD=R1 1x2).....SP ? (fill in blank)
SPACE/BACKSPACE - (WASD=NumPadEnter).....SP ? (fill in blank)
I'm not so sure I understand the SP nomenclature for the keys under the "VERTICAL" heading/box. Some explanation of their definitions are needed.
Should this diagram get sent to Melissa? Does this convey what we are looking for? Am I thinking of this wrong and there's a better way to match what we found at WASD with what SP names their equivalent?
Boli-Are you closer to the answer than I am?
[ATTACH=CONFIG]46007[/ATTACH]
Post by: boli on Wed, 28 March 2012, 01:41:11
Quote
Boli-Are you closer to the answer than I am?
Well I'm reasonably sure we want the keys I listed in the diagram, but I will ask Melissa to confirm. :)
BTW Weyman replied this:
Quote
Technically, I could make the missing keycaps. But, the problem is still the initial tooling costs of making the mold and then producing the minimum quantity needed for each color. Unfortunately, I don't think there's going to be enough demand overall to justify making them. You have a link to the thread? I'll take a look and maybe I can at least work something out with SP to get the missing keys in a single color.
I returned the link of your official parts list post.
Post by: Input Nirvana on Wed, 28 March 2012, 01:57:59
Should I do that, or do you think you got it? Is it easier if it's verbal verses email? Let me know, I'm happy to do it. We're so close!
Post by: boli on Wed, 28 March 2012, 16:18:59
Quote
Yes our keycaps will look like what you have illustrated, but please be aware that ours are a bit shorter in profile than those pictured. Attached is a picture of our keycaps compared to standard Filco keycaps which are taller, like those pictured.
The file she attached is this: Filco vs. Signature Plastics key caps (http://homepage.mac.com/boli/geekhack/FilcoVsSignature.pdf)
If the Filco keys match WASDkeyboards keys like she said, we might have trouble mixing SP keys with WASD keys. :-/
That said, the only crucial SP key caps (in my opinion anyway) are the tall thumb cluster keys (DCS row 5). I suggest one of you guys in the US orders one to see how well it fits. :)
The 1.25 wide side keys would be nice to have, but not a dealbreaker (IMO), as the WASD replacements work fairly well. I think I'll stick to my order of those from the round 4 group buy, so will hopefully be able to see how well they mix and match.
Personally I'm most interested in a custom lasered set with as many proper keys as possible, so I hope Weyman will come through.
A full blank set from SP is not important to me, but I might buy one for cheap (say $40, which is the price we get for 25+ sets).
Post by: Input Nirvana on Wed, 28 March 2012, 18:33:39
Quote from: boli;559599
She confirmed we need vertical 2x1 row 4/4 (NumPadEnter) and horizontal 1x2 row 4 (NumPadZero). I sent along your picture above.YAYYY! We are positively confirmed! I made the corrections in the thread and Split Kinesis mod wiki for the "OFFICIAL PARTS LIST". I'll add the Kps/Boli diagram now in the wiki article for visual reference.
The file she attached is this: Filco vs. Signature Plastics key caps (http://homepage.mac.com/boli/geekhack/FilcoVsSignature.pdf)
Quote from: boli;559599
If the Filco keys match WASDkeyboards keys like she said, we might have trouble mixing SP keys with WASD keys. :-/Yes, WASD keys are Filco keys. I don't think there would be much of an issue mixing, but if we do this whole thing right, we shouldn't have to. That's what I've been trying for :)
Quote from: boli;559599
That said, the only crucial SP key caps (in my opinion anyway) are the tall thumb cluster keys (DCS row 5). I suggest one of you guys in the US orders one to see how well it fits. :)Dox confirmed the SP DSC Row 5 1x1 to the the 4 tall thumb cluster keys. I looked in the awesome key wiki, but I don't see that Filco has a Row 5 key? That would explain why WASD drew a complete blank when looking at the 4 tall keys on the Kinesis.
Quote from: boli;559599
The 1.25 wide side keys would be nice to have, but not a dealbreaker (IMO), as the WASD replacements work fairly well. I think I'll stick to my order of those from the round 4 group buy, so will hopefully be able to see how well they mix and match.It doesn't matter where the blank keys come from, just that they are the correct replacement keys and that WASD will laser them. That way we have the option of correct blanks and correct custom laser.
Personally I'm most interested in a custom lasered set with as many proper keys as possible, so I hope Weyman will come through.
A full blank set from SP is not important to me, but I might buy one for cheap (say $40, which is the price we get for 25+ sets).
It seems to me that WASD getting and stocking blanks from SP (or whomever) and selling them as blanks and custom laser will make almost everyone happy. But there's always a malcontent in every group :)
What did you wind up buying from the round 4 group buy? It's still going for a couple days....
We are at the very least finally complete with the key cap replacement search (more manufacturers are always an option), so now it's just creating a path to getting custom keys somewhat readily available at a reasonable cost for the future.
Post by: boli on Thu, 29 March 2012, 02:28:13
Quote from: input nirvana;559725
Yes, WASD keys are Filco keys. I don't think there would be much of an issue mixing, but if we do this whole thing right, we shouldn't have to.
Well I already have 3 keyboards full of WASDkeyboards caps. ;) About the mixing, IIRC Filco/WASD and SP keys have different stem lengths to make up somewhat (totally?) for the different skirt length. Melissa's comparison picture makes the difference look more pronounced than I thought, hence my concerns.
Quote
Dox confirmed the SP DSC Row 5 1x1 to the the 4 tall thumb cluster keys. I looked in the awesome key wiki, but I don't see that Filco has a Row 5 key? That would explain why WASD drew a complete blank when looking at the 4 tall keys on the Kinesis.
I thought they were function keys, but the Filco vs. SP comparison pics made me doubt myself. :) I wonder if Melissa's comparison picture shouldn't read R5, R1 to R4 from top to bottom. As it is, it lists row 4 twice, and doesn't have the number row. I asked for clarification.
Quote
It doesn't matter where the blank keys come from, just that they are the correct replacement keys and that WASD will laser them. [snip] It seems to me that WASD getting and stocking blanks from SP (or whomever) and selling them as blanks and custom laser will make almost everyone happy.
That would be awesome, my hopes are on Weyman (you did see his message above?).
Quote
What did you wind up buying from the round 4 group buy?
I'll get 3 sets of 1.25-wide side keys for sure, and maybe a round3 Colemak Alpha set. Current price is too high though, still more than QWERTY Alpha + Colemak set (still have those in my order to get price updates, will remove them eventually), which doesn't make sense.
Post by: Input Nirvana on Thu, 29 March 2012, 03:54:02
Quote from: boli;560129
Well I already have 3 keyboards full of WASDkeyboards caps. ;) About the mixing, IIRC Filco/WASD and SP keys have different stem lengths to make up somewhat (totally?) for the different skirt length. Melissa's comparison picture makes the difference look more pronounced than I thought, hence my concerns.Yea, too risky to try and put a custom laser set with mixing key caps. No one wants crap. Stupid different stem lengths. I had mixed Kinesis doubleshots and Kinesis singleshots and didn't notice a difference, but that doesn't mean anything. I'm taking the idea of mixing off the radar, too problematic. And...we shouldn't need to do this.
Quote from: boli;560129
I thought they were function keys, but the Filco vs. SP comparison pics made me doubt myself. :) I wonder if Melissa's comparison picture shouldn't read R5, R1 to R4 from top to bottom. As it is, it lists row 4 twice, and doesn't have the number row. I asked for clarification.
I'm not happy with that entire sheet. I also saw it in Ripsters ever-more-awesome key wiki, and hated it there too. It doesn't answer questions, and creates more questions. There are other comparisons in the wiki showing Filco and SP...they show 2 top rows the same keys and no Row 5. I asked a question in Rippys subforum if Filco has a Row 5 keycap. Let's see if he 1) tears me to shreds, 2) ignores me, 3) answers.
Quote from: boli;560129
That would be awesome, my hopes are on Weyman (you did see his message above?).Saw his note. I'm not at the 'making custom key caps' threshold. There should be no reason for it (unless I'm missing something?). The best pricing would be from getting complete sets from one source (consistency) and all the keys are currently manufactured....so....I want this for everybody. No compromise. (Am I missing something?)
Quote from: boli;560129
I'll get 3 sets of 1.25-wide side keys for sure, and maybe a round3 Colemak Alpha set. Current price is too high though, still more than QWERTY Alpha + Colemak set (still have those in my order to get price updates, will remove them eventually), which doesn't make sense.I pulled my interest off that group buy because it was confusing, think I had to buy a bunch of extras, too expensive, still may not have gotten what I want, and I have not had the time to devote to sorting it all out and getting it done. It's been a nasty several months for me, and everything has suffered :( I am intrigued by his blank doubleshots though.
In my opinion we've come too far and put too much effort to settle for imperfection for something as simple as key caps, that we should be able to buy easily from Kinesis or a source they could have easily directed us too. I'm not willing to hodge-podge this last step to Kinesis-Nirvana, and I don't want you or anyone else to either. Forget mixing, manufacturing some 'missing' keys, group buying mix-n-match, or whatever. I want the 2 manufacturers of the Kinesis keys (SP is one of them), and I want pricing and options. This is going to happen.
Ba-da-BING!
Post by: Icarium on Thu, 29 March 2012, 05:50:03
Quote from: input nirvana;560166
I had mixed Kinesis doubleshots and Kinesis singleshots and didn't notice a difference, but that doesn't mean anything.
There are DS Kinesis caps? :o
Post by: Input Nirvana on Thu, 29 March 2012, 06:02:28
Quote from: Icarium;560222
There are DS Kinesis caps? :oYou didn't the KEY CAP section in the Split Kinesis mod wiki????
There are even pics :(
Click my sig.
Sigh.
Post by: Icarium on Thu, 29 March 2012, 07:15:13
Quote from: input nirvana;560228
You didn't the KEY CAP section in the Split Kinesis mod wiki????
Well, it's REALLY LONG! :)
Combined with the fact that I don't generally care much about keycaps... maybe I was just too distracted by the boobs. ^^
Post by: boli on Thu, 29 March 2012, 09:10:12
Quote
On a standard keyboard, the function row and the number row are the same height and are row 1 keycaps. The QWERTY row is row 2, the ASDFG row is row 3 and the bottom two rows are row 4.
I hope this clarifies!
No time for other stuff ATM (work).
Post by: bogboar on Thu, 29 March 2012, 11:43:29
Quote from: rantenki;444685
I swapped my keys out during one of the early cherry keycap group buys, and they work _awesome_. I never looked back, and there is nothing unusual about the keys. The main issue is relocating keys from various rows to the thumb keys. The kinesis keys are all kinda tall though, so YMMV.
(Attachment) 30709[/ATTACH]
How do you game on your Kinesis – do you operate WASD with your pinky/ring/middle fingers? Seems to me like if a man were to get a Kinesis, a man would migrate to ESDF-centric gaming.
Post by: Input Nirvana on Thu, 29 March 2012, 12:48:47
Quote from: boli;560332
No time for other stuff ATM (work).
I'm making effort :)
http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?29302-The-only-place-on-the-planet-for-this
EDIT---
I'm traveling on iPhone, so hard for me to search.
- Does Dox know who makes 7bits GB4 keys?
- Do we know that these are exact Kinesis replacements?
- I'm looking for Filco key info similar to SP diagrams.
Post by: boli on Mon, 02 April 2012, 02:52:41
Quote from: bogboar;560449
How do you game on your Kinesis – do you operate WASD with your pinky/ring/middle fingers? Seems to me like if a man were to get a Kinesis, a man would migrate to ESDF-centric gaming.
Exactly right, ESDF it is (but then I used ESDF even before switching to the Kinesis).
Quote from: input nirvana;560527
I'm making effort :)
Cheers for checking. So far we learned that the Race function (F#) key row is also called R5, just like the tall SP keys, right?
Post by: Input Nirvana on Mon, 02 April 2012, 03:27:08
Quote from: boli;564434
So far we learned that the Race function (F#) key row is also called R5, just like the tall SP keys, right?
Yes, and a little more than that. I've made the conversions. Anything in RED is not confirmed yet and we need to still follow up.
(This is copied from the Everything Kinesis Advantage wiki....I renamed the Split Kinesis Mod Project, LOL!)
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The same exact key caps with the taller skirt (Filco/Costar). So far:
ORDERING INFORMATION (Costar/Filco/equal option):
A Kinesis set (with cylindrical instead of spherical home keys):
[LIST=|INDENT=1]
[*=left]10 row 4 1x1..........1 2 4 5 6 7 9 0 Home PageUp
[*=left]12 row 3 1x1..........Q W E R T Y I O U P 3 8
[*=left]*12 row 2 1x1........A S D F G H J K L ;: End PageDown
[*=left]18 row 1 1x1..........Z X C V B N M ,< .> /? `~ \| Larrow Rarrow Uarrow Darrow [[ ]]
[*=left]4 row 5 1x1............CTRL ALT/OPT Command/Win (the 4 keys at the top of the thumb clusters vary in function depending on OS used)
[*=left]2 row 4 1x1.25.......=+ -_.....A Costar/Filco part?
[*=left]6 row 2 1x1.25.......Tab \| CapLock '" Shift Shift.....A Costar/Filco part?
[*=left]2 row 1 1x2 (turned vertical).....Enter Delete
[*=left]2 row 1x2 vertical (NumPadEnter)......Space Backspace
[/LIST]
To have the 8 home row keys as the original 'spherical' keycaps:
- Only 4 Row 2 1x1..........G H End PageDown
- Add 8 DSA Row 3 1x1...........A S D F J K L ;: (these may be a "Deep Dish" key cap).....A Costar/Filco part number?
I disregard the "homing bump" option for the index fingers when using the spherical keys options (see DSA sheet)
A tactile homing "bump" or "bar" can be used on the index fingers of the home row if the spherical keys are not used. Hardly required since the keywells mostly guide your fingers to the correct locations:
- *Only 10 row 3 1x1.....................................A S D G H K L ;: End PageDown
- Add 2 DCS row 3 1x1 with "bump" or "bar".......F J.....A Costar/Filco part number?
- Only 4 Row 2 1x1..........G H End PageDown
- Add 8 DSA Row 3 1x1...........A S D F J K L ;: (these may be a "Deep Dish" key cap).....A Costar/Filco part number?
I disregard the "homing bump" option for the index fingers when using the spherical keys options (see DSA sheet)
A tactile homing "bump" or "bar" can be used on the index fingers of the home row if the spherical keys are not used. Hardly required since the keywells mostly guide your fingers to the correct locations:
- *Only 10 row 3 1x1.....................................A S D G H K L ;: End PageDown
Post by: boli on Mon, 02 April 2012, 03:49:07
Post by: Input Nirvana on Mon, 02 April 2012, 04:04:24
Skirt height mixing=not bad, but we are trying to avoid. We only need: R2 1x1.25 and R4 1x1.25 (NOT SP designations!!!) and we are complete. The other 2 line items are sphericals, and R2 1x1 with homing bumps/bars, and these are optional.
We know these keys are made. They are on our keyboards, and SP didn't make them. I doubt these are custom. I can't find the Costar/Filco/Race/Anything with a key cap schedule anywhere on the web...I mean really, is it possible it's not "out there"? A couple people on our geeky keyboard sites and then emails to suppliers/manufacturers and we should be done with it. WASD didn't have them, that concerns me. But he didn't have the ultra high R5 either.
We're very close.
Post by: Input Nirvana on Thu, 05 April 2012, 01:42:32
This is a thread on Qtans vendor forum to see about replacement PBT key caps, you can monitor for when the info is available:
http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?29875-Blank-PBT-key-caps-for-Kinesis-Advantage-(Cherry-MX)
Color layout concepts:
I have my all black keyboard idea with no legends...just as Boli did his, but I also I had thought of making my black Kinesis match my iMac (aluminum and black).
One idea was to use gray keys like Boli did (but with 8 red home row keys, like on the right side (Excuse the poor use of red Paintbrush):
[ATTACH=CONFIG]47627[/ATTACH]Maybe instead of light or dark gray, the keys should be silver, or metallic.
Or maybe get the Advantage Pro with the silver top case and swap the blue for red keys:
[ATTACH=CONFIG]47625[/ATTACH]
Or stay with the black and red theme:
[ATTACH=CONFIG]47626[/ATTACH]
I had thought of maybe doing the 'home' thumb key as well:
[ATTACH=CONFIG]47629[/ATTACH]
THE REAL THING
I put some red (they look oversaturated or orange in cell phone photos, but BAD ASS in real life) on one of my extra key wells...because my keyboard underneath has white doubleshots installed. This will be it, no doubt. I should have known. Bold. Masculine, Clean.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]47728[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]47633[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]47731[/ATTACH]
Post by: rantenki on Sat, 07 April 2012, 11:13:23
---snip---
Quote
Hey all, just thought I would drop a heads up that thingiverse has a keycap library that I am working on. You can take a (very early) peek here:
http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:20953
There will eventually be a full set of parametrically generated keys, I just need to get a script together that actually generates them from a spreadsheet rather than having to manually set the design parameters. It's in solidworks, btw.Show Image(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7099/6906598788_c211f2c1c4.jpg)
Cheers;
- Derek
p.s. The flash really added a sheen. The key doesn't stand out at all from the other keys (other than being cleaner) in person.
Post by: Input Nirvana on Sun, 08 April 2012, 01:56:27
What can you tell us about the key? Better/worse/same? And what is the cost?
Post by: dorkvader on Sun, 08 April 2012, 11:05:00
Post by: Input Nirvana on Mon, 09 April 2012, 00:13:27
Post by: rantenki on Mon, 09 April 2012, 14:38:02
Quote
There is nearly no material, maybe a couple meters of filament tops. I am using a PLA plastic in a reprap, specifically this one:
[video=youtube_share;OuQZ-TEaSpg]http://youtu.be/OuQZ-TEaSpg[/video]
The actual material cost is probably less than a dime for the key, but the printer runs about $1k in parts.
This is all a lead up for building a new kinesis variant with adjustable split, tilt and spacing:
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5038/7061836431_8710be05d7_c.jpg)
Post by: Input Nirvana on Mon, 09 April 2012, 14:48:46
I'm looking at this in detail right after lunch!
Post by: uberben on Tue, 10 April 2012, 11:01:10
Quote from: rantenki;571661
This is all a lead up for building a new kinesis variant with adjustable split, tilt and spacing:Show Image(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5038/7061836431_8710be05d7_c.jpg)
This looks awesome! I hope you plan to release all of these parts to thingiverse when you are done. I was hoping I wouldn't have to chop up my factory Kinesis case to experiment with some mods, so 3d printing a custom one would be perfect. Have you tried printing a case yet? I imagine all the weird curves and cavities would make 3D printing a bit of a challenge.
Post by: Input Nirvana on Tue, 10 April 2012, 12:51:10
1) Could use this opportunity to consider a different thumb cluster alignment. I asked Hoggy on Deskthority to post comparative pics of Kinesis and Maltron...very interesting. I can post link here if there is any interest.
2) Options of having the wristrest like on the original Kinesis? I think it may be mandatory since the keywells are 3D.
Post by: rantenki on Tue, 10 April 2012, 13:29:31
Post by: Input Nirvana on Tue, 10 April 2012, 13:46:21
If you have a dedicated thread/website for this, I'd like to have a 'Kinesis Reimagined' mod-heading in my Everything Kinesis Advantage wiki that is currently getting redone. A couple pics and a small write-up, then linking to your website or thread.
Let me know if that could happen in the future.
Post by: rantenki on Wed, 11 April 2012, 12:16:20
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5038/6922102850_25500c8a9c_z.jpg)
http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:20953 (http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:20953)
Post by: Icarium on Thu, 12 April 2012, 03:46:10
Post by: rantenki on Thu, 12 April 2012, 20:29:15
As for the more over-reaching project of the keyboard case, I do expect to have the casing done in a couple of weeks, as work is a bit hectic til the end of the month. I haven't printed the case yet, but there won't be any difficulties. I have integrated snap-off supports in the design, so it prints standing up on it's end, and none of the overhangs are enough to cause problems.
Post by: Icarium on Tue, 17 April 2012, 02:42:31
I should totally build a 3D printer. I wish any of my friends were only remotely interested in something like that. Doing it completely on my own is just too much alone time. :/
Post by: Input Nirvana on Tue, 17 April 2012, 02:47:44
I can't get the video to load to see what's required. If this is something that the community would want a bunch of stuff from, I may be in a position to make one in several months.
Post by: rantenki on Tue, 17 April 2012, 17:53:44
http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:20953
Post by: Input Nirvana on Tue, 17 April 2012, 18:10:21
The software??
Able to make it do wood key caps?
I want to possibly replace my Kinesis keys with wood, and have them match existing profiles/shapes? This is a software issue, correct?
Post by: wasdkeyboards on Tue, 17 April 2012, 18:22:16
But, you guys might want to check out this high-res 3D printer: http://www.indiegogo.com/veloso3dprinter
Post by: net2522 on Tue, 17 April 2012, 18:24:50
Post by: Input Nirvana on Tue, 17 April 2012, 19:03:57
Meh
Post by: uberben on Wed, 18 April 2012, 08:47:34
Also, 3D printing services like Ponoko (http://www.ponoko.com/make-and-sell/materials) and Shapeways (http://www.shapeways.com/materials) can 3d print some interesting materials such as steel, glass, and multi-coloured ceramic. Those materials would be less flexible, so the stems might need to me more carefully designed so they fit perfectly. Alternatively, you could print the stems in plastic separately and then glue them in, much like my wood cap suggestion.
Post by: Icarium on Wed, 18 April 2012, 10:35:43
I hope this link works. ;)
That's not my work btw. Sadly! ;)
Post by: rantenki on Wed, 18 April 2012, 22:27:16
The best method would probably be to make an aluminum mold blank for each of the bottoms, then tops that are interchangable for the keys. I may get around to that but I really want to get a new keyboard case built up first so that I can split my kinesis.
Post by: erw on Fri, 08 June 2012, 19:30:13
How's progress on the non-SP tall keys? :pizza:
Post by: Input Nirvana on Sat, 09 June 2012, 00:22:28
We've been trying to get 2 options:
1) SP keys (available in ABS or PBT)....these are available.
2) Taller non-SP keys (in either ABS and PBT)....I had several sources that confirmed they could not do all the keys, was waiting for a couple more answers....then I had some serious life issues cropped up the 3rd week of April that brought almost everything to an absolute stop :(
Kinesis has a few sets they found of ABS BLACK with BLUE home row keys that are taller without labels (blank) for $40. If I could afford it, I would buy one set, but it's not a prudent purchase for me at this time. I'm in debt.
My bigger desire is to get keys in PBT and hopefully that are taller than the SP keys. But, if not available, I'll settle for the shorter SP keys made of PBT. The only drawback is that the key set pricing in ABS or PBT is very expensive unless you buy many sets. :(
I may be able to get involved again to try and source the taller keys (we know they are made in ABS) and maybe even PBT...our keyboards and fingers deserve it. But I don't know when I'll be able to do this, maybe towards the end of the year, so if someone wants to pick up where it's been left off....go for it.
Post by: erw on Sat, 09 June 2012, 05:52:27
Quote from: input nirvana;610142
You've been gone quite a while...I figured you took a trip to the South Pacific and hooked up with a native girl :)
We've been trying to get 2 options:
1) SP keys (available in ABS or PBT)....these are available.
2) Taller non-SP keys (in either ABS and PBT)....I had several sources that confirmed they could not do all the keys, was waiting for a couple more answers....then I had some serious life issues cropped up the 3rd week of April that brought almost everything to an absolute stop :(
Sorry to hear, man. I hope things are better :hug:
Quote from: input nirvana;610142
Kinesis has a few sets they found of ABS BLACK with BLUE home row keys that are taller without labels (blank) for $40. If I could afford it, I would buy one set, but it's not a prudent purchase for me at this time. I'm in debt.
My bigger desire is to get keys in PBT and hopefully that are taller than the SP keys. But, if not available, I'll settle for the shorter SP keys made of PBT. The only drawback is that the key set pricing in ABS or PBT is very expensive unless you buy many sets. :(
I may be able to get involved again to try and source the taller keys (we know they are made in ABS) and maybe even PBT...our keyboards and fingers deserve it. But I don't know when I'll be able to do this, maybe towards the end of the year, so if someone wants to pick up where it's been left off....go for it.
Quote from: boli;547827
But do you think Weyman from WASDkeyboards would even laser key caps we bought from somewhere else? Last I heard he wouldn't do it because of "could be lost during shipment" concerns. Also since he'll be offering PBT keys in a few months he might tell us to wait... (he has not replied to my last few mails so I'm not even trying to ask).
I see WASD is not planning PBT in the near future:
Quote from: wasdkeyboards;433197
Frequently requested, but not planned
- PBT (currently unable to find a manufacturer with a reasonable price)
so maybe he would how be willing to order, say, 50 sets at $28.75 from SP, and then laser them? But I guess they all have to be the same color, then.
Post by: Input Nirvana on Sat, 09 June 2012, 10:41:59
I think I was unable to find all of the 'taller' keys in ABS. Kinesis buys them from a broker in Taiwan...not direct from a manufacturer.
I contacted 2 people on GH about 'taller' PBT, one can't supply all the keys, the other didn't follow up after a couple messages...my guess is they can't do it either.
Boli participated in group buy 4, which I've always been confused with...it's a combination of group buy 3 and 4....???? Supposedly 7bit said the keys were going to be blank doubleshots....? I think Boli was going to verify at some point...but I don't think he has gotten them yet? That deal is a mystery to me.
BOTTOM LINE FOR BLANKS AT THIS TIME:
-ABS short-available from SP
-PBT short-available from SP
-ABS tall-we know they are made, don't know who (a few sets are available from Kinesis for $40)
-PBT tall-we don't know they are all made.
-DOUBLESHOT ABS-allegedly available
Post by: boli on Sun, 10 June 2012, 06:50:28
BTW all of the group buy round 4 key caps are from SP, and SP doesn't make double shot blanks.
If I wanted a blank set I'd buy one of the few Kinesis set left (and recommend everyone who'd like blanks to get one while it lasts), can't beat the price and perfect fit.
Alas, I'm hooked to custom lasered key caps by now, so I'm waiting for PBT keys from WASD, whenever that may happen. In the mean time stuff like Diablo 3 and R/C helis keep spare time at a minimum. :P
Post by: Input Nirvana on Sun, 10 June 2012, 13:46:32
Still didn't ship? The longest group buy in history? LOL
NO doubleshot blanks.
Keys from SP so they will be the shorter keys (if black, it doesn't really matter since you see between the keys less).
Thanks for the insight/info.
Yes, I'm so tempted to get a set of blanks, it's just so easy, so affordable.
1) just a bad time for me to spend even $40 (I sort of want 2 sets so $80 if I was so bold)
2) really want PBT
Post by: dorkvader on Mon, 11 June 2012, 09:40:02
Quote from: input nirvana;610847
NO doubleshot blanks.Wanting Doubleshot blank keycaps is kind of a joke, as there is no practical difference to a normal blank keycap (except the underside has the potential to be a different colour) and it is considerably more expensive to produce them. As far as I know, they only exist on keyboards that had all doubleshot keys and one blank one (where it kind of makes sense) and possibly devlin.
So, I only want some doubleshot blanks for the extreme irony of it. In my opinion, it's not a big deal.
Post by: Input Nirvana on Mon, 11 June 2012, 13:38:19
It's now a dead issue.
Post by: erw on Tue, 12 June 2012, 08:34:53
Post by: iMav on Tue, 12 June 2012, 08:46:36
Quote from: erw;611946
I just ordered a full replacement set from WASD with my Danish Colemak layout and a bold retro look. Can't wait to get it!!WASD sells a complete Kinesis Advantage keycap set?
Post by: erw on Tue, 12 June 2012, 09:05:45
Quote from: iMav;611950
WASD sells a complete Kinesis Advantage keycap set?
No (not yet :-)
I used the replacements discussed in this thread: http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?23446-kinesis-advantage-keycap-replacement-limitations&p=477340&viewfull=1#post477340
Specifically, all eight 1x1.25 side keys are R1 (instead of three R2 and one R4), the eight home keys are R2 (instead of sphericals), and -- the only actual issue -- the four modifiers are R4 instead of the fabled R5 which has recently turned out to not be a custom Kinesis creation, it's just that WASD doesn't have it.
Post by: Input Nirvana on Tue, 12 June 2012, 10:11:10
Quote from: erw;611955
No (not yet :-)
I used the replacements discussed in this thread: http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?23446-kinesis-advantage-keycap-replacement-limitations&p=477340&viewfull=1#post477340
Specifically, all eight 1x1.25 side keys are R1 (instead of three R2 and one R4), the eight home keys are R2 (instead of sphericals), and -- the only actual issue -- the four modifiers are R4 instead of the fabled R5 which has recently turned out to not be a custom Kinesis creation, it's just that WASD doesn't have it.
Correctamundo...it's been a complicated process so far.
Eventually, we'll get another source for PBT or custom caps.
Post by: boli on Fri, 03 May 2013, 13:50:40
I bought a few DCS row 5 black key caps from Signature Plastics for my 3 Kinesis keyboards as well as the ErgoDox (which is being assembled by TheProfosist - I had opportunity to try out my friend's ErgoDox though).
SP still have some of those keys in their ABS DCS inventory (http://keycapsdirect.com/inventorypdfs/DCSABSInventory.pdf) (no PBT ones unfortunately), which you can order here (http://keycapsdirect.com/key-capsinventory.php) if you are interested.
When mounted on the keyboard they are a bit less high than the originals, maybe half a millimeter. Their skirt is about a full millimeter shorter than the skirt of the original keys, but their skirt is flush with the stem - unlike the originals, where the stem is a little bit recessed.
At least the keys are a bit higher than the original second highest keys (orange in this picture), and as such they seem to work out OK. Not perfect, but the best replacement I've used so far.
(http://bueechi.net/geekhack/Kinesis-kps-chart-adapted-for-SP.png)
Compared to the DSA keys that came with the ErgoDox they are a godsend. I hope the DCS keys for the ErgoDox will be better, but nobody could tell me what profiles they were, so we'll see...
Post by: Input Nirvana on Fri, 03 May 2013, 20:30:47
Just a quick note....remember we had noted there were 2 types of Kinesis keycaps...the original white, doubleshot key caps that are shorter and with shorter skirts about flush with the stem. Then the newer, single shot that are taller and taller skirts with the stems recessed a bit. We also noted that the original doubleshots sat lower on the keyboard than the newer singleshots but maintained the same profiles. And, as a last item, the profiles stayed the same for all keycaps EXCEPT there was a minor difference with the 2 bottom rows of the key wells that later Kinesis used the same R4 key caps for both rows.
Does this assist with anything? I'm typing this from memory...
I really want to work on the Everything Kinesis article and adding the pics since they are so relevant...but I don't have access to it.... :(
Gonna swing by the GH meet up this weekend!!!!
Post by: uberben on Fri, 03 May 2013, 23:11:59
I'd love to see that article fixed up too. Any chance you could send me the pics in the mean time? It is such a good collection and I'd hate to see it disappear. I'd love to help you fix up the article too, if I can.
Post by: Input Nirvana on Fri, 03 May 2013, 23:54:45
I'm going by the GH meetup tomorrow and will see Mkawa. Soarer send me several emails with all the pics, I'll start looking fir them this weekend, I hope they didn't get lost with my stalker problem last year, but I bet Soarer still has them in the event I come up dry. I have located a few more that are relevant as well. I'll see what I can do.
As you may remember, we wanted to clean out the crap (I didn't intend to have it grow to what it ultimately became), reconfigure everything in a wiki-type format for ease of use...but I don't know if that's still an option with whatever formats GH uses. Can you tell I haven't been around much?
One big issue was adding in the info, contacts, links for some of the alternate mainboards that had been cropping up, and some of the talented people I had found that did some amazing work.
Post by: Input Nirvana on Sun, 05 May 2013, 01:44:10
After all my huffing and puffing about blank keycaps, preferably of PBT...I have found something today that will be far more awesome. I saw it at the GH meetup in Silicon Valley.
Option #1 I just saw this key in real life, and it looks at least 10 times better than the pic. The white is really white, and the 'geekhack' is a cool orange translucent polycarbonate. I want black keys with Klingon alphabet in either the same dark orange or red translucent polycarbonate. Will need to add backlighting to the Kinesis keyboard cherry switches. Beyond effing cool!
[attach=1]
Option #2 The original idea to have the black key caps out of PBT, maybe with the 8 home row keys in red. I'm not nearly as excited about this anymore...
Post by: erw on Mon, 31 March 2014, 07:48:52
[attach=1][attach=2]
So, any news about Kinesis keycap replacements? I'm planning to order some for my other Kinesis from WASD as soon as I get my ergodox ;D
Post by: cruzin on Thu, 21 August 2014, 14:01:56
I think I never posted my WASD caps from 2012 in here:
(Attachment Link) (Attachment Link)
So, any news about Kinesis keycap replacements? I'm planning to order some for my other Kinesis from WASD as soon as I get my ergodox ;D
Sorry for the necro... did you ever end up ordering from WASD again? I'm looking to get replacement caps for my Advantage and really like the look of yours in the pic. How did you order the thumb cluster? I emailed them the other day about replacement caps and they said they don't make a set for it.
Post by: erw on Wed, 15 October 2014, 19:55:04
I took a screenshot from my order back then, so you can see how to map the Kinesis layout on a 104 or 105 key layout. The crossed out keys are only some I included for experimentation; they are not needed. They don't use the same online designer tool anymore, so you'll have to do it in Inkscape yourself, but that's probably for the better. And note that the four thumb modifiers are only Row 4 height since they don't carry the Row 5 (P1) keys, but this has not turned out to be a problem for me. I also just realized that the lowest row (with the arrow keys) is supposed to be P6 keys ("Row 0"), but using WASD's Row 1 for these has been no problem at all.
[attach=1]
However, the above layout needs the following remarks:
The "Enter" text on the numpad 0 key should be rotated 90 degrees clockwise to make it read correctly when mounted vertically on the Kinesis (which you can do yourself in Inkscape). Also, you need two extra keys that won't fit on the first 104/105-key layout: (1) Another Row 1 1x2 with the centered text "Delete" rotated 90 deg. COUNTER-clockwise, and (2) another Numpad Enter with the centered text "Space" (like the other numpad enter: not rotated).
I asked nicely if I could get those two extra keys in return for all the unmarked keys that I didn't need anyway, and I could.
Post by: pkircher on Sun, 24 May 2015, 06:41:45
the carbon job is still in process ..
(http://puu.sh/hXFFm/f35f95a327.png)
Post by: m0j0 on Wed, 14 October 2015, 15:52:51
As I mentioned in another thread, I'm trying to get some replacements for my Kinesis keyboards with just the Command (⌘) symbol and the Option (⌥) symbol.
WASD can do it, of course, with the R4 size. I'm waiting to hear back from SP.
Post by: coherent on Tue, 08 December 2015, 15:09:21
Do I have a buy a bunch of key cap packs from a place? Did anyone figure out the right keys for the thumb keys? What would the layout file for wasdkeyboards look like- or does anyone have a specific shopping list of parts? Thanks!
EDIT: From what I can tell, the cheapest option is to simply buy the blank keycap set from the kinesis website. I read that the cheapest kit to buy from WASD is the following, is that right? Has anyone bought that?
(http://i.imgur.com/vpXcytz.png)
Alternatively, am I understanding it right that I can buy just 2x of any 108 keyboard set and be okay? Like could I just buy 2x of this mass drop rainbow keycap set and be done at $60?
https://www.massdrop.com/buy/npkc-rainbow-keycaps/talk
Post by: stian on Fri, 11 December 2015, 11:34:49
56 – 1x keys (optionally including two homing keys)
8 – 1.25x keys (shift caps, tab)
4 – 2x keys (these are the thumb keys, space enter etc)
This is what my Kinesis looked like with DSA PBT Blanks http://i.imgur.com/ceaWMIQ.jpg (http://i.imgur.com/ceaWMIQ.jpg)
I'm using the Graphite set now though, still PBT DSA: https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/f4Ib29Q9QEIt9mZn1MRaFlNUfIoQyErT5NJUzGzWwvvwSs7Ok1luga_ueGHnv9yDqgayYqiEc2LBiA=w1738-h977 (https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/f4Ib29Q9QEIt9mZn1MRaFlNUfIoQyErT5NJUzGzWwvvwSs7Ok1luga_ueGHnv9yDqgayYqiEc2LBiA=w1738-h977)
For the blanks I ordered (I think), one normal set, and then ordered single pieces for the missing parts; I'm still using the keys from my blanks purchase for the graphite as well.
Just look at what you're ordering and find something that fits you the best. I'm guessing the Ergodox sets will be the best + extra's. The 1.25x keys probably need to be ordered separately.
I also see Signature Plastics / Pimp My Keyboard aren't selling the DSA blanks anymore..
Post by: Input Nirvana on Sun, 03 January 2016, 19:19:17
Post by: hoggy on Tue, 05 January 2016, 17:16:58
Post by: Input Nirvana on Tue, 05 January 2016, 17:27:41
🏼
Post by: hoggy on Tue, 05 January 2016, 21:58:18
I went somewhat quiet here and at Deskthority for a while, but I'm slowly ramping back up to gear. Kind of ran out of ergo boards to buy (that's not meant as a boast). I've found myself eyeing up typewriters, but having seen where that impulse has gone with keyboards, I'm content to just look for a while longer.
Post by: glitchathon on Sat, 13 February 2016, 16:56:12
A look at the diagram that boli posted seems to show that vertically, the row numbers are swapped with WASD (number row is row 1 in the diagram, but WASD calls that row 4, for instance). It would seem that WASD's keys with legends from that set would not match the Kinesis at all?
Post by: F2a on Tue, 06 June 2017, 14:05:16
Post by: flac.head on Fri, 10 November 2017, 09:28:47
Post by: hmeh on Thu, 08 February 2018, 14:27:56
Also, they still don't have tall keys so DCS R5s for the thumb modifiers will have to do. Has anyone tried these? Do they work ok?
Post by: lasttycoon on Wed, 03 October 2018, 16:18:09
Post by: hmeh on Wed, 03 October 2018, 16:25:43
Post by: lasttycoon on Wed, 03 October 2018, 16:30:28
I ended up buying ducky double shot pbt. They’ve been great. Not the labels I want, but they caps are good
Can I ask where you sourced them? I don't really need labels at all, I am mostly looking for aesthetics and feel.
Post by: hmeh on Wed, 03 October 2018, 23:04:04
They sent me an extra KP0 and KPenter and a bunch of other keys I didn't end up needing. I've got almost all the keys covered but the tall keys, the square brackets and the tilde/|\ key on the lower left. Those I don't tend to use very often so I preferred to leave them properly legended. I'm quite happy w/ it.
Note the 3 and the 8 which should be right square bracket and KP8 respectively to have the proper profile.
[attachimg=1]
Post by: lasttycoon on Thu, 04 October 2018, 09:40:37
I just bought these: https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=3248 and asked them to include an extra PBT KP0 and KPEnter. You just add this to your cart and put it in special instructions: https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=2380
They sent me an extra KP0 and KPenter and a bunch of other keys I didn't end up needing. I've got almost all the keys covered but the tall keys, the square brackets and the tilde/|\ key on the lower left. Those I don't tend to use very often so I preferred to leave them properly legended. I'm quite happy w/ it.
Note the 3 and the 8 which should be right square bracket and KP8 respectively to have the proper profile.
You are awesome!