What would you like to see?

[10centNickle]

What are some fresh ideas you would like to see related to keyboards?

[Leopard223]

New stabilizers design, a new switch design sdandard that eliminates the north facing issue with cherry keycaps. 
Clickbar like tactility but quite.

High end plastic keyboards.

[Leslieann]

A socket/switch design that was actually built for swapping.

Unfortunately it wouldn't be very backwards compatible with current swap sockets and while it technically exists (Outemu and optical) there is universal standard and therefore extremely limited.

[ddrfraser1]

Topre hipro keycaps, alps keysets, switch designs other than MX style becoming main stream such as contactless or Alps etc.

[blur410]

More XT layout keyboard kits. Love the XT layout and would love to see one like the old NMB's and Model F's. Sadly I missed out on all the fun GB's years ago and had no chance to get one.

[ddrfraser1]

Same. I love the XT layout. Would have love to get in on the Caliope. But I do think we will see more of this kind of thing 

[Findecanor]

New stabilizers design, a new switch design sdandard that eliminates the north facing issue with cherry keycaps. 

I think that a new switch should be:
* Centre LED (example: Omron B3K)
* Lower-profile. But not too low, and not too wide either: You don't want a situation where keycaps have to be floating or have a wider top surface than standard. (example: Cherry MX Low Profile)
* Stabilisers for 2u-2.75u should be a bar between an active and a dummy switch. That way, ISO/ANSI/JIS/Split space etc. could be accommodated by a single PCB/plate design without additional cutouts. Larger keys could have left-justified legends be backlit or use multiple LEDs. (example: IBM Buckling spring, Ericsson switch).
* Sound-damped. Down and up. (Example: Alps Cream, MX Silent)
* Contactless. Enables hotswapping. Smoother without metal contacts. (Examples: XMIT, Flaretech)
* A tactile switch that combines a progressive spring with a rubber dome/sleeve in parallel. No surfaces grinding against each other. (Example: linear contactless MX-clone with a rubber sleeve from a Mitsumi KPQ)

[cthalupa]

More high end boards with numpads. I know they're not particularly popular, but I make a lot of use of the numpad day to day, and am not a fan of layers. Wish I had been in the hobby when the Austin ran!

[Chalkboard]

Topre custom boards

[tp4tissue]

Ergodox with 2 more Top row of keys.

[moosekeyboards]

Ergodox with 2 more Top row of keys.

Anything besides F keys? Is the spacebar situation perfect as it is?

[tp4tissue]

Ergodox with 2 more Top row of keys.

Anything besides F keys? Is the spacebar situation perfect as it is?

Yes, the spacebar is perfect , People who says it's not are simply NOT tented properly.  TENTING is critical.

Yes, the F row, + more keys in general,  there's plainly NO REASON to have fewer keys..

There's a need to save horizontal space for the mouse surface,  which EGDX already gives you the maximum amount of.   There is NO NEED to save Vertical space, hell put 3-4 extra rows on there. More hotkeys.

[Chalkboard]

More hotkeys.

This is also a big thing I would like to see. Give me more hot/macro keys on the main layer

[funkmon]

More XT layout keyboard kits. Love the XT layout and would love to see one like the old NMB's and Model F's. Sadly I missed out on all the fun GB's years ago and had no chance to get one.

I didn't even know there were XT layout group buys! That sounds awesome!

[killyou]

Hot swappable 60% keyboard with alu case withouth FLOATING KEY DESIGN DAMN IT

[treeleaf64]

Easier assembly of split keyboards and better case options. I'm tired of seeing those stupid two pieces cases wwhere it's nothing but a sandwich.

[Findecanor]

You know what ... now that rotary encoders have become so commonplace on customs, shouldn't fancy keycap sets also include colour-matched knobs?

[typo]

Full Topre line offered in nice Aluminum cases at non absurd prices.

[blur410]

Realforce boards already use a steel mounting plate. Also cast aluminum case with an ultra expensive pcb(capacative pcbs use a lot of copper) is gonna be pretty low margin at "reasonable" prices, enough that Topre would never consider it. By non-absurd I assume you mean in the mid 400 dollar range btw. Anything less than that would never ever happen.

[moosekeyboards]

Full Topre line offered in nice Aluminum cases at non absurd prices.

Sadly topre in aluminum cases feels really bad.  That's why you don't see this.  there have been a few of them in the past, but they are always a let down.

[Matchablossom]

Topre custom boards

I second that!

A squished 100% that won't compromise on keys and saves space. Most 1800 compact 100% sizes make compromises on either the size of the 0 of the num-pad, arrow-keys or delete/ins/home/etc. .

I use the full size for work. It's okay at home for gaming and free-time stuff on my computer, but for work I can't live without F-keys, navigation keys, and a Numpad. Using a layer for that would cost time and is very inconvenient with the number of times I use those keys.

[yui]

i'd really want a decently priced 122 or more keys custom with full size numpad and navpad, and iso and winkeyless options. a custom M122 or FK9200 if you will, a project for the long future if no one makes it before me

[Chalkboard]

Topre custom boards

I second that!

A squished 100% that won't compromise on keys and saves space. Most 1800 compact 100% sizes make compromises on either the size of the 0 of the num-pad, arrow-keys or delete/ins/home/etc. .

I use the full size for work. It's okay at home for gaming and free-time stuff on my computer, but for work I can't live without F-keys, navigation keys, and a Numpad. Using a layer for that would cost time and is very inconvenient with the number of times I use those keys.

Yeah that's exactly what I would like to see in Topre as well. Something like an Austin layout or a Boston layout.

[blur410]

Now a custom topre board could be doable, especially if NiZ decides it's a good idea to make PCB's and springs, then people buy BKE redux domes or NiZ domes, and voila, now people have a custom project platform. I think NiZ could be willing to organize a group buy for a particular layout(For instance, 60% with standard standoffs, ortholinear or 40% may have a buyer base) but anything particularly niche(like split ergo, 96% layout, 83 key XT) will likely be out of reach without making your own capacitive PCB(very expensive stuff, as even the cheapest of cheap of any capacative boards is over 100 dollars).

[HungerMechanic]

Yes blur, you hit on something that's feasable but requires some courage from the manufacturer.

A lot of us want to experiment with BKE domes, but there's no affordable platform to do so. You can do it on a Niz, but the BKE don't line up properly in comparison to a Topre board for dome replacement.

Be nice to order a custom Niz with BKE Ultra Lights, for example. Or even an empty board designed for BKE that could be populated. But I guess Niz makes money from its dome sales?

[HungerMechanic]

New stabilizers design, a new switch design sdandard that eliminates the north facing issue with cherry keycaps. 
Clickbar like tactility but quite.

High end plastic keyboards.

I basically agree with everything you are saying here.

You might want to check out the ART BOX switches and maybe Kailh BOX Silent Red/Brown switches. For reference purposes.

Because the ART BOX switches seem to have a housing design where you can put them in a wrong-facing PCB and there won't be any interference with Cherry-profile.

A silent clicky would be a holy grail for a lot of people.

[Leslieann]

High end plastic keyboards.

This actually sort of exists thanks to hot swap, no longer do you need to desolder before doing anything.
Though it's not exactly off-the-shelf, at least it can be done without a lot of hassle.

Seriously if you haven't tried a fully modded plastic board you should.

[Leopard223]

New stabilizers design, a new switch design sdandard that eliminates the north facing issue with cherry keycaps. 
Clickbar like tactility but quite.

High end plastic keyboards.

Huh, I recently seen the new BOX creams and thought why wont Kailh just re-release it's box switches with this design, good to know about those switches, definitly going to try getting a sample.
I basically agree with everything you are saying here.

You might want to check out the ART BOX switches and maybe Kailh BOX Silent Red/Brown switches. For reference purposes.

Because the ART BOX switches seem to have a housing design where you can put them in a wrong-facing PCB and there won't be any interference with Cherry-profile.

A silent clicky would be a holy grail for a lot of people.

High end plastic keyboards.

This actually sort of exists thanks to hot swap, no longer do you need to desolder before doing anything.
Though it's not exactly off-the-shelf, at least it can be done without a lot of hassle.

Seriously if you haven't tried a fully modded plastic board you should.

Can you elaborate about fully modding plastic boards? 
Modding is great but it has it's limits, getting a different mounting , case design and plastic aren't possible with modding.
ABS and PC are nice but aren't as sturdy or hefty as other plastics (which I don't know their name).

[blur410]

More PVC and opaque dyed resin cases could be very cool indeed.

[Aritega]

A random thought but I do like to see more MX Lock designs. I would also like to see more Kailh Chocs/MX low profile customs that aren't split or ortholinear, and more keycap options as well.

[chalcocabana]

I like the 60% case compatible pcbs in different layouts (ortho, split, etc.) and I wanna see more of them. They are very budget friendly generally as they use standard 60% cases. I want to try an Atreus style layout in a standard 60% case at some point.

[Leslieann]

Can you elaborate about fully modding plastic boards? 
Modding is great but it has it's limits, getting a different mounting , case design and plastic aren't possible with modding.
ABS and PC are nice but aren't as sturdy or hefty as other plastics (which I don't know their name).

About the only one you will case swap is 60%, almost everything else is proprietary, this applies to low end and high end, plastic or aluminum. It's a lack of standards that are the problem and I don't see it changing any time soon as there's no good reason from a manufacturers standpoint. Cooler Master isn't going to get new molds made just so you can swap in a Leopold PCB, there's no benefit in it for them. 60% is interchangeable only because of a quirk in history, had China started to make 60% on their own it too would be all different shapes and bolt patters, it's only because they could cheat and copy the open source GH60 that they all match.

PC isn't as sturdy? Define sturdy. Short of engineering grade plastics you aren't going to get much more durable, Polycarbonate is what bulletproof windows and older Samsung Galaxy phones were/are made of. Once you get into engineering grade plastics the costs are often not much better than just using aluminum.

What I meant by modding is what most of us do, lube/sticker/spring swap switches, stabs, cables, add foam. While that seems mundane, try doing it to an off-the-shelf soldered board, before hot swap this was an absolute monumental task for anyone who lacked a desoldering iron.

[tp4tissue]

Plastic isn't guilt free, we've got massive plastics pollution going on.

[Leslieann]

Considering the price of our keyboards, I'm pretty sure it's safe to say they aren't the problem.

[T’Downit Strider]

I, personally, would love to see an increase in the amount of solid, proper full-size custom cases. There's plenty of stuff for 60% people, and other smaller sizes-I get it, less material, less money-but I don't think it would be TOO expensive, using plastics.

Unless there's some reason I'm not seeing, or everyone knows a manufacturer who does this already, and I'm just dumb. 9-6

Alternatively, I'd love to see an increase in the variety of case designs in general(for those of us without the disposable income for premium boards). I mean, the rimless floating-key design has been done to death already, and there were so many cool design accents in the 80s I'd like to see make a comeback.

[blur410]

Luckily companies have realized high profile cases are utilitarian for the people who care about their switches and caps.

[Leslieann]

I, personally, would love to see an increase in the amount of solid, proper full-size custom cases. There's plenty of stuff for 60% people, and other smaller sizes-I get it, less material, less money-but I don't think it would be TOO expensive, using plastics.

Unless there's some reason I'm not seeing, or everyone knows a manufacturer who does this already, and I'm just dumb. 9-6

Alternatively, I'd love to see an increase in the variety of case designs in general(for those of us without the disposable income for premium boards). I mean, the rimless floating-key design has been done to death already, and there were so many cool design accents in the 80s I'd like to see make a comeback.

Not dumb just not aware of how manufacturing works.
Injection molding is really cheap but the startup costs can be insane so you need to balance that against volume. Believe it or not, the cost of the plastic is almost insignificant in the cost of a keyboard.

As for how this applies to a full size in plastic, it means a much larger, much more precise mold, more R&D since the plate is now integral to the sturdiness of it, almost twice as many resistors, diodes and through holes, you also need a more complicated controller (not enough I.O.) and more memory to hold the programming, more fasteners, more switches, more key caps, a bigger box, more packing material... That stuff is cheap in bulk, but every 10 cents you spend in China making something is a dollar to the end user, so while all of that may only add up to an extra dollar per keyboard the end user pays an extra 10 dollars. This is on top of the thousands and possibly tens of thousands you spent on the molds you needed to get started and need to recover. This is why they would rather use a snap together design rather than an extra fastener, once designed it costs them pretty much nothing from there on out. It's also why companies are so hesitant to alter an existing design and why there is so many low-profile (rimless) designs, it's one less part and one less (very expensive) mold to make.

[fohat.digs]

I, personally, would love to see an increase in the amount of solid, proper full-size custom cases.

As for how this applies to a full size in plastic, it means a much larger, much more precise mold,

As I am rapidly coming up on my 10-year anniversary here, I think about how many people have been lamenting for that entire time how much they would love to be able to buy a custom case to drop their Model M into (and particularly aluminum or some other metal).

It seems to me that this is the simplest possible scenario. Large, eager market, no R&D, no ancillary components, just make 2 single parts (plus maybe a few screws (which might not necessarily need to be oddball pieces requiring oddball tools! by means of a minor tweak)) and start selling them into an existing customer base. And maybe jump-start even that process by working with Unicomp.

If nobody has found a reasonable way to accomplish even this, by now, it should indicate a very high entrance barrier for the process.

 

[blur410]

I, personally, would love to see an increase in the amount of solid, proper full-size custom cases.

As for how this applies to a full size in plastic, it means a much larger, much more precise mold,

As I am rapidly coming up on my 10-year anniversary here, I think about how many people have been lamenting for that entire time how much they would love to be able to buy a custom case to drop their Model M into (and particularly aluminum or some other metal).

It seems to me that this is the simplest possible scenario. Large, eager market, no R&D, no ancillary components, just make 2 single parts (plus maybe a few screws (which might not necessarily need to be oddball pieces requiring oddball tools! by means of a minor tweak)) and start selling them into an existing customer base. And maybe jump-start even that process by working with Unicomp.

If nobody has found a reasonable way to accomplish even this, by now, it should indicate a very high entrance barrier for the process.

Just email Ellipse about all that. Took 5 years and 10's of thousands of dollars. Even with boards at 389 a pop he isn't getting that much profit compared to what he sank in. Would totally buy an aluminum SSK tho with a proper paint job.

[Maledicted]

A random thought but I do like to see more MX Lock designs. I would also like to see more Kailh Chocs/MX low profile customs that aren't split or ortholinear, and more keycap options as well.

Yes. I think relatively thin and small choc boards would be a good choice for keeping in a laptop bag with a laptop to carry around. There need to be more boards tailored to that purpose. It would probably tip the balance for people on the fence about bothering to lug a board around.

I, personally, would love to see an increase in the amount of solid, proper full-size custom cases.

As for how this applies to a full size in plastic, it means a much larger, much more precise mold,

As I am rapidly coming up on my 10-year anniversary here, I think about how many people have been lamenting for that entire time how much they would love to be able to buy a custom case to drop their Model M into (and particularly aluminum or some other metal).

It seems to me that this is the simplest possible scenario. Large, eager market, no R&D, no ancillary components, just make 2 single parts (plus maybe a few screws (which might not necessarily need to be oddball pieces requiring oddball tools! by means of a minor tweak)) and start selling them into an existing customer base. And maybe jump-start even that process by working with Unicomp.

If nobody has found a reasonable way to accomplish even this, by now, it should indicate a very high entrance barrier for the process.

I think that makes more sense now that you can't just buy a Model F for less than something like that would cost new.

[Leslieann]

The Model F was  $375 in 1984, which if you account for inflation is around $1000 today, it was never cheap to make.

The new one is actually a lot cheaper than the original.

[Maledicted]

The Model F was  $375 in 1984, which if you account for inflation is around $1000 today, it was never cheap to make.

The new one is actually a lot cheaper than the original.

Yup. I'm not saying that they're not still a good value or anything (most of the time), just that used ones used to be a better value than some sort of premium Model M option would ever be. I already have one of Ellipse's boards, with another on order. I fear I'll order many more. There's less and less reason to buy a used one anymore.

[DELLA KEY]

I want a keyboard with music playback and volume control buttons!

[HungerMechanic]

Injection molding is really cheap but the startup costs can be insane so you need to balance that against volume. Believe it or not, the cost of the plastic is almost insignificant in the cost of a keyboard.

As for how this applies to a full size in plastic, it means a much larger, much more precise mold, more R&D since the plate is now integral to the sturdiness of it, almost twice as many resistors, diodes and through holes, you also need a more complicated controller (not enough I.O.) and more memory to hold the programming, more fasteners, more switches, more key caps, a bigger box, more packing material... That stuff is cheap in bulk, but every 10 cents you spend in China making something is a dollar to the end user, so while all of that may only add up to an extra dollar per keyboard the end user pays an extra 10 dollars. This is on top of the thousands and possibly tens of thousands you spent on the molds you needed to get started and need to recover. This is why they would rather use a snap together design rather than an extra fastener, once designed it costs them pretty much nothing from there on out. It's also why companies are so hesitant to alter an existing design and why there is so many low-profile (rimless) designs, it's one less part and one less (very expensive) mold to make.

Yeah, I'd like to see more full-size options too, particularly in plastic, but as you say, snap-together is an option.

KBDFans does something like this - they already have a TKL with the KBD8X MKII, and they also have a numpad, KBDPad, so you can just buy them together from the same batch. I'm fine with that, I guess.

[Maledicted]

I want a keyboard with music playback and volume control buttons!

There are a lot of keyboards that have that, although it is usually part of some secondary layer. There are plenty with dedicated buttons and/or knobs/wheels for it as well. They're hated by most for the caps they used to come with (and proprietary bottom row), but I particularly like Corsair K70s partly for those features.

Even this $50 Tecware Phantom L from Amazon has a surprising amount of layered functions.

[fohat.digs]

I want a keyboard with music playback and volume control buttons!

If rubber domes are OK with you, the Compaq SK-2800C is a pretty nice media keyboard. Still no rotary knob, unfortunately.

[T’Downit Strider]

I, personally, would love to see an increase in the amount of solid, proper full-size custom cases. There's plenty of stuff for 60% people, and other smaller sizes-I get it, less material, less money-but I don't think it would be TOO expensive, using plastics.

Unless there's some reason I'm not seeing, or everyone knows a manufacturer who does this already, and I'm just dumb. 9-6

Alternatively, I'd love to see an increase in the variety of case designs in general(for those of us without the disposable income for premium boards). I mean, the rimless floating-key design has been done to death already, and there were so many cool design accents in the 80s I'd like to see make a comeback.

Not dumb just not aware of how manufacturing works.
Injection molding is really cheap but the startup costs can be insane so you need to balance that against volume. Believe it or not, the cost of the plastic is almost insignificant in the cost of a keyboard.

As for how this applies to a full size in plastic, it means a much larger, much more precise mold, more R&D since the plate is now integral to the sturdiness of it, almost twice as many resistors, diodes and through holes, you also need a more complicated controller (not enough I.O.) and more memory to hold the programming, more fasteners, more switches, more key caps, a bigger box, more packing material... That stuff is cheap in bulk, but every 10 cents you spend in China making something is a dollar to the end user, so while all of that may only add up to an extra dollar per keyboard the end user pays an extra 10 dollars. This is on top of the thousands and possibly tens of thousands you spent on the molds you needed to get started and need to recover. This is why they would rather use a snap together design rather than an extra fastener, once designed it costs them pretty much nothing from there on out. It's also why companies are so hesitant to alter an existing design and why there is so many low-profile (rimless) designs, it's one less part and one less (very expensive) mold to make.

Ah, thanks for informing me. Going off of what I get from this, I guess it would be more cost effective to try and get the rights(do they copyright keyboard styles?) to remanufacture old designs that have stopped being sold-that is, if they still have the tooling used to make those designs, which isn't the most likely thing. However, if the tooling did exist, and some random company pulled a Unicomp and bought the tooling to make anew, I'd love to see flat recreations of the boards. After all, one day people like me who want these cases are going to face a roadblock when they've all run out.

[Leslieann]

IP rights are tricky but yes, finding the tooling would be a good way to go, provided you could find it (most is destroyed), buy it and secure the rights to manufacture it. Depending on the company who owns all of that though it may not actually be cheaper. You would think it would be worth almost nothing, just sitting around however the moment you approach them it now has value again and also companies can just plain be jerks about it. You wouldn't be the first I've heard of where a company for absolutely no logical reason made it impossible to buy or even lease something despite no market threat of any sort.

Sure maybe you like the old look, but I doubt there is a big market for them in today's world of rgb, type-c, hot swap, compact form factors and 5million different switches and to be honest I doubt we'll ruin out anytime soon. We certainly will not run out of Model Ms any time soon.

However there is hope.
If you really want that old look and in plastic this is where 3d printing comes to the rescue, my PF65 has a bit of old school look to it despite how modern it is, in fact many of the styling cues were taken directly from old school boards, this is more visible on the earlier designs of it. Can you make a good 3d printed board? Absolutely, especially if you combine it with a laser or water jetted plate and doubly so if you send it out and have it printed using laser sintering on a commercial machine. Those can even replicate the texture to a degree.

[T’Downit Strider]

You know, it's funny you should mention 3d-printed boards, because on my hunt for a good case, I actually also found the option of 3d-printed ones to be a great choice in lieu of a regular thick case. After looking at some stuff by KeyboardBelle, though, I have yet to find anything available that's not a 60%. I understand that most models of 3d printers don't have a build plate that big-I did some minor work with them at my job while in High School-but I really don't care for the 60% form factor. Thus, my search continues. Resin cases also look like a good option, but I haven't looked into them as much as I should. In the meantime, though, I'm gonna grab an old chassis and dust off my soldering iron.

[Leslieann]

There are several 65% and a few larger ones on Thingiverse.

One reason you don't see many larger customs is the controller options. QMK only runs on a few controllers and most are not capable of a full size or even a TKL. Also building your own is relatively new and newer boards have trended smaller. Combined with small build volumes it makes sense that most are smaller boards. It's not hard to rework a design to be bigger or smaller though, once you have a switch mount it's easy to copy/paste it repeatedly in sections or even an entire row extremely fast. Ignoring the controller and wiring, I could add an f-key row, nav cluster or ten key in minutes to my design.

Resin the size of a board is EXPENSIVE and rare, the technology doesn't scale well. I'd recommend laser cut Polycarbonate or acrylic instead, FAR cheaper.
Powder scales well, though it's super expensive, especially at scale, and not really home use friendly at all. This is can be more expensive than CNC milling.