Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES

[h1ro]

Couple of random questions:

On the site it mentions a 9 degree tenting angle and a 4.5 negative tilt. I can see from the gif how the negative tilt works but no idea how the 9 degree tenting happens. Any chance of a picture?

Does the final case have that lovely matt finish (rather than the rather glossy finish of your other boards)?

Did the keycaps end up being PBT and laser symbols (although otaku style would be rather cool too come to think of it!)

Thanks

[Matias]

Couple of random questions:

On the site it mentions a 9 degree tenting angle and a 4.5 negative tilt. I can see from the gif how the negative tilt works but no idea how the 9 degree tenting happens. Any chance of a picture?

Does the final case have that lovely matt finish (rather than the rather glossy finish of your other boards)?

Did the keycaps end up being PBT and laser symbols (although otaku style would be rather cool too come to think of it!)

Sure...

See attached drawing for the tenting.

Yes, the case is matte, but still made from the same high-quality (and more expensive) polycarbonate material.

All the new keycap sizes are PBT.  The standard caps are ABS.  We're using a UV printing process for the legends (UV paint).

[h1ro]

Thanks for the information. The tenting makes much more sense now! And I much prefer the matte look - more stealth

What led to the decision to mix both PBT and ABS? Does it feel odd when typing switching between the two?

[Matias]

What led to the decision to mix both PBT and ABS? Does it feel odd when typing switching between the two?

We only did tooling for the keycaps that weren't already available from our keycap supplier.  We did those in PBT.  Our supplier's tooling is for ABS.

It doesn't feel odd switching between the two, since they are on different sized keys, and we matched the texture and shape of the PBT caps to the original ABS ones.

[jacobolus]

We only did tooling for the keycaps that weren't already available from our keycap supplier.  We did those in PBT.  Our supplier's tooling is for ABS.

Are you planning to add PBT tooling for standard key sizes in the future, or just stick with the caps you can already get for those?

[Matias]

We only did tooling for the keycaps that weren't already available from our keycap supplier.  We did those in PBT.  Our supplier's tooling is for ABS.

Are you planning to add PBT tooling for standard key sizes in the future, or just stick with the caps you can already get for those?

Yes, the plan is to have all key sizes available in PBT.

Long term, I'd like to move away from ABS completely, but we're playing things by ear.

[h1ro]

Thanks for the info - this is such a useful thread!

And +1 on the completely PBT keycaps for the future

[Matias]

Thanks for the info - this is such a useful thread!

Yes, I agree.

And another one was especially useful, as it led to the addition of settings DIP switches.  Pat yourselves on the back...  :-)

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=53183.msg1200646#msg1200646

[Matias]

Okay, I just got an update on the production schedule for the Ergo Pro...

It's looking like we're going to miss the August production date by a few months.  The PBT keycaps are taking a little longer than expected, and we have to redo the electronics to support the DIP switches and lockable embedded number pad.

Our best guess is around October, but we're telling everyone December (just to be safe).  This also coincides with the National Ergonomics Conference & Expo (NECE) where the Ergo Pro will make its official debut.

I know that a lot of you will be disappointed with the delay -- especially those who pre-ordered.  We feel bad about that, so we are giving everyone who pre-ordered prior to this announcement a free iRizer laptop stand...

If you plan to use your Ergo Pro with a laptop, you'll need a stand and the iRizer is the best one we make.  It even includes a little MiniRizer for your smartphone / business cards / etc.  They usually sell for $39.95.  We really appreciate your support, and hope this small gift helps make up for the delay.

Next, I have some GOOD news to announce...

I can now officially state that the Ergo Pro will be available in ISO layouts for Europe. UK, German, and Nordic versions of the Ergo Pro will be available exclusively from The Keyboard Company (our European distributor).  If you wish to pre-order a European Ergo Pro, please contact them.

Thanks again for your patience.

[MissMurd3r84]

Am glad that I did not pre-order yet, as I am still unsure if you take the money now or at a later date, so I'd hate to think of my money being tied up for all those months Am sure it would be worth it in the end, but will wait a bit longer

[jacobolus]

I'm glad the 'virtual' numpad is getting a locking mode. Will that feature trickle down into other Matias numpad-less keyboards?

[Matias]

Am glad that I did not pre-order yet, as I am still unsure if you take the money now or at a later date, so I'd hate to think of my money being tied up for all those months Am sure it would be worth it in the end, but will wait a bit longer

I thought I'd addressed this before.  Anyway...

Your credit card would be charged at the time you place the order.  Our card processing service doesn't allow for deferred payments.  As a "thank you" for this inconvenience, we give you free shipping and (to those who pre-ordered early) a free iRizer stand.

If at any time you decide you don't want to wait, you can always ask for a refund and we'll credit you back the full amount.

So far, I think we've only had one person cancel their order.  The rest seem to be happy to have the new features.

I'm glad the 'virtual' numpad is getting a locking mode. Will that feature trickle down into other Matias numpad-less keyboards?

Perhaps, but that would require a complete re-design of the electronics.  I don't see that happening anytime soon.

[jacobolus]

I'm glad the 'virtual' numpad is getting a locking mode. Will that feature trickle down into other Matias numpad-less keyboards?

Perhaps, but that would require a complete re-design of the electronics.  I don't see that happening anytime soon.

It’s too bad the margins are so tight on keyboards. An extra $5 on the BOM would get you enough CPU/etc. to do pretty much whatever you wanted with the firmware.

[Matias]

I'm glad the 'virtual' numpad is getting a locking mode. Will that feature trickle down into other Matias numpad-less keyboards?

Perhaps, but that would require a complete re-design of the electronics.  I don't see that happening anytime soon.

It’s too bad the margins are so tight on keyboards. An extra $5 on the BOM would get you enough CPU/etc. to do pretty much whatever you wanted with the firmware.

Actually, it's not margins, but design philosophy...

1)  Modifiable firmware on a keyboard is an unnecessary security hole.  We live in a world where the NSA (and others) intercept electronics shipments, and flash their firmware to introduce security vulnerabilities.  I can't stop them from doing that if they really want to, but I don't need to make it easy for them.

2)  I think lockable embedded number pads are bad design.  If you need a number pad, get a number pad.  Embedding one is a kludge...  It pulls you out of home row, the columns don't line up properly, the minus-star-slash keys are in the wrong place, Enter is now too far away and awkward to reach with your little finger.  If you lock the number pad by accident, you're typing gibberish.  I could go on all day about why embedded number pads are all kinds of wrong.

However, people want what they're used to, so we're putting them in from now on. 

3)  I'm a strong believer in macro software.  Pretty much anything you want to do to manipulate a keyboard layout can be done via appropriate software running on your PC.  And macro software can adjust behaviour according to context, whereas fancy firmware in your keyboard has no clue what app is running.

I suspect most people here will disagree with me, but we design stuff for a wide range of users -- not just hardware hobbiests -- so our priorities are a little different.

[jacobolus]

I also agree with you that, in general, modes suck.

The main thing I don’t like (AT ALL) about the current Matias keyboards with virtual numpads is that the Fn key is on the right hand, and the numpad is also on the right hand. This makes it extremely awkward to actually use as a numpad. This is a different design from nearly all keyboards with a similar virtual numpad feature [mainly on various laptops], where the Fn key is pressed with the left hand, leaving the right hand free to actually use the numpad.

So adding a numpad lock is a way of getting around that design flaw in a relatively painless way.

[jacobolus]

3)  I'm a strong believer in macro software.  Pretty much anything you want to do to manipulate a keyboard layout can be done via appropriate software running on your PC.  And macro software can adjust behaviour according to context, whereas fancy firmware in your keyboard has no clue what app is running.

The problem is that, at least on a Mac, you can’t use user-space level software – or even a new system-level declarative keyboard layout – to change which keys are defined as modifiers, or to intercept certain keyboard shortcuts. Instead, you need to install a separate keyboard driver or kernel extension or similar, and these can have odd bugs and cause system instability. Often configuring these is a pain in the ass, and writing a new one from scratch would be a bigger pain.

For anyone who wants to carry their keyboard from one machine to another, or especially from on OS to another, having everything set up in computer software makes it a huge headache to get setup.

Current macro software tends to not be fully flexible with some kinds of input, for example moving the mouse around the screen, or scrolling. Sometimes you can sort of hack it together, but just emulating a mouse at the keyboard level can be much easier to get working.

* * *

But I can respect your point about making things harder for the NSA & al. If I were shipping a consumer product I would probably make different choices than I do when building my own DIY hardware.

[hoggy]

Matias - I'm really pleased about the design change.  Happy to wait for the board, but the laptop riser is a nice thought - thanks!

[hjkl_over_wasd]

Lately, I've been wondering if MX browns really are the switches I should be using. I really like them, but they might be an enabler for my bad typing habit of banging on the keys and always bottoming out, which leads to painful joints when typing on a metal plate. The Matias switches and keyboards have piqued my interest, especially now that I see that PBT caps are being used.

I read that custom firmware isn't something that is going to be supported, but are the Matias keyboards all running in PS/2-mode over a USB cabel?
That would at least enable DIY'ers to use a teensy/TMK setup without too much hassle.

[Matias]

I read that custom firmware isn't something that is going to be supported, but are the Matias keyboards all running in PS/2-mode over a USB cabel?
That would at least enable DIY'ers to use a teensy/TMK setup without too much hassle.

No, they are USB through a 3-port USB 2.0 hub.

The electronics are all on a daughter board though, so DIYers can replace the electronics easily by creating a new daughter board and plug that into the main PCB that has all the switches soldered onto it.

[h1ro]

Now a daughterboard sounds like a fantastic idea (although well beyond me!)

I'm curious - what connector type goes between the two sections?

[Matias]

Matias - I'm really pleased about the design change.  Happy to wait for the board, but the laptop riser is a nice thought - thanks!

Thanks, response so far has been very understanding and positive.

[Matias]

Now a daughterboard sounds like a fantastic idea (although well beyond me!)

I'm curious - what connector type goes between the two sections?

Pin header connectors.  Very easy to source.

[h1ro]

Ah, easy to source. Music to my ears

[MissMurd3r84]

Am glad that I did not pre-order yet, as I am still unsure if you take the money now or at a later date, so I'd hate to think of my money being tied up for all those months Am sure it would be worth it in the end, but will wait a bit longer

I thought I'd addressed this before.  Anyway...

Your credit card would be charged at the time you place the order.  Our card processing service doesn't allow for deferred payments.  As a "thank you" for this inconvenience, we give you free shipping and (to those who pre-ordered early) a free iRizer stand.

If at any time you decide you don't want to wait, you can always ask for a refund and we'll credit you back the full amount.

So far, I think we've only had one person cancel their order.  The rest seem to be happy to have the new features.

My apologies if I had indeed missed you responding earlier. Cheers

[h1ro]

Matias, I notice in the thread on your upcoming 60% board you saying:

"but each key in the Fn layer will have its own unique keycode, which you can capture and assign to a macro on your PC/Mac"

Is that going to be the case with the ErgoPro?

[argcargv]

I think each key will have unique keycode.
Matias talked alot about being able to get any remap using software on the computer.
So each key has to have different keycode for software on the computer to be able to tell the difference and thus remap them.

[h1ro]

Excellent - thanks for the info

[argcargv]

Any updates? Just made an order 

[Grim Fandango]

I think it looks very cool. Personally I do not mind the staggered layout, since that is the layout I have to use for about 8 hours a day anyway.

One thing I wonder though is whether there will be any lighter Matias Alps switches. I like the feel of the ones that they are currently using. But if I were to buy a keyboard that really focuses on comfort, I would like the actuation force to be a lot less than what I have felt from other Matias boards. Looks incredibly good though.

[Matias]

Any updates? Just made an order 

Great!

We're still waiting on the rest of the keycap tooling.  We expect to be able to assemble a complete sample by Thursday or Friday.  Will post photos when we do.

One thing I wonder though is whether there will be any lighter Matias Alps switches. I like the feel of the ones that they are currently using. But if I were to buy a keyboard that really focuses on comfort, I would like the actuation force to be a lot less than what I have felt from other Matias boards. Looks incredibly good though.

Thanks, we're doing linear switches (around 45gf) for a customer, and will be selling those separately as well.  You could always swap out the springs for those -- a bit of work, but do-able.

[Grim Fandango]

Thanks, we're doing linear switches (around 45gf) for a customer, and will be selling those separately as well.  You could always swap out the springs for those -- a bit of work, but do-able.

This is good to hear! It is of course an entirely subjective thing, but to me a lighter switch is just more comfortable since I spend 4+ hours a day typing (not sitting behind a computer, which I do almost 10 hours a day, but actually typing).

[jacobolus]

Thanks, we're doing linear switches (around 45gf) for a customer, and will be selling those separately as well.  You could always swap out the springs for those -- a bit of work, but do-able.

Do you have full specs of these new springs and the springs in your clicky/tactile switches? (I.e. total unloaded length, stiffness, wire gauge/material, spring diameter, unloaded length of active section, number of active coils, total length at switch actuation / bottom-out. Or some subset of those would be useful even. Assuming the switch feel could be kept roughly similar with a different spring, I think you could find quite a few customers who would prefer a lower-actuation-force switch, which could be accomplished with a shorter spring or less stiff one.)

[h1ro]

I wonder if it will be possible to remap those dedicated undo/cut/copy/paste on either the windows or mac side of things with Autohotkey or Karabiner.

Anyone have any experience on remapping such dedicated keys?

[davkol]

Cut/Copy/Paste usually send specific key codes, or act as macros for Ctrl+X/C/V or Ctrl/Shift+Insert. No idea which is the case here.

[h1ro]

Ah interesting. Let's hope for specific key codes I do love to remap

[argcargv]

If this board could be teensy modded 
I can only dream about being able to remap on the hardware level

[davkol]

Earlier in the thread:

So, there's gonna be,  non-sanctioned programability?

I prefer the term "hackable".  :-)

[h1ro]

So I took that more to mean the daughter board controller 'could' be replaced. On the assumption someone builds one.

Hopefully there will be many unique keycodes we can remap in software.

[Matias]

Sorry for the radio silence.  Heading back to Canada tomorrow...

We did get the samples assembled.  They are rock solid and super-comfortable to type on.  Photos below.  The first one is the ISO model for Europe.  There's a Japanese sample too, but I haven't assembled it yet.

The undo/cut/copy/paste keys generate the appropriate key combo's for Windows or Mac.  There will be codes in the Fn layer, that you can capture and re-assign.

Thanks for all the questions and discussion...

[h1ro]

Wow, that's looking rather sexy!

Thanks for all your hard work - I can't wait to type on it. The negative angle makes much more sense from those pictures. Looks like you added a cut away at the front? Easier access for the space bar I'm guessing?

Great news about the remapping. Have a safe trip home

[argcargv]

Looks beautiful

[argcargv]

Wow, that's looking rather sexy!

Thanks for all your hard work - I can't wait to type on it. The negative angle makes much more sense from those pictures. Looks like you added a cut away at the front? Easier access for the space bar I'm guessing?

Great news about the remapping. Have a safe trip home

The cut away is very neat!

[SonOfSonOfSpock]

Looks fantastic!

[ReneFroger]

Looks interesting indeed. May I wonder if it is possible to send the spacebar left or right another scancode, which will be received as a spacebar. So that leaves room for us to remap the, for example, the left spacebar.

If so, it would be an instant buy for me. Any thoughts on this, Matias?

[Tiramisuu]

Such a shame people think they need dedicated arrow keys.   It's a lovely board.  It should sell like hotcakes.

[Matias]

Thanks, it's sold very well so far, and we are continuing to make improvements.  It's also been nominated for an ergonomics award.

Regarding the spacebars, the spec currently allows for changing either of them to  be individually assigned Space or Backspace.

[mkawa]

i seriously just had a dream that i bought one of these and it turned out to be a DIY kit made out of cardboard. i have no idea what it means, but there you go.

absolutely true story dudes.

fwiw i was really jazzed about getting it

[Matias]

i seriously just had a dream that i bought one of these and it turned out to be a DIY kit made out of cardboard. i have no idea what it means, but there you go.

absolutely true story dudes.

fwiw i was really jazzed about getting it

We use only the absolute finest cardboard for our imaginary keyboards...  :-)

[mkawa]

oh, i left out the best part. half of it was made of plastic and constructed and half of it was a kit with a cardboard PCB. !?!?!? stupid brain

[Latin00032]

This is getting sold already??