Alps Appreciation Thread

[CPTBadAss]

Show Image

You know you're dedicated to Alps when your desoldering gun has a tip just for em. The legs on Alps are slightly bigger than MX switches.

Haha when i first got my desoldering gun i wasnt able to use it on Alps right away because of that, had to order a 1.2mm tip for them, is that what you use also?

Using a Hakko A1006, 1.3mm tip.

[bocahgundul]

Can I ask you guys what is the other custom board that can accept alps beside kingsaver and the alps party keyboard?

[E3E]

Can I ask you guys what is the other custom board that can accept alps beside kingsaver and the alps party keyboard?

As far as I know (thanks to itzmeluigi), there's the LZ-FE and Orion v2 (both need the Leeku Alphas PCB and plate) and then that's it.

Well, the Duck Mini and Duck Viper/Eagle can too. As well as the Duck Lightpad, which is a number pad.

And then yes, of course, the Kingsaver. Oh, and Leeku made an MXAlps PCB for the G80-3000 too. It supported it under one revision at least, then cut support for Alps after the next revision, I think.

Right, and lastly the upcoming VE.A will support both MX and Alps.

If you want to go further, there's the Infinity, Infinity Ergodox, Alps Party, and Clueboard that all support Alps too, aaaand the Monarch.

[bocahgundul]

Can I ask you guys what is the other custom board that can accept alps beside kingsaver and the alps party keyboard?

As far as I know (thanks to itzmeluigi), there's the LZ-FE and Orion v2 (both need the Leeku Alphas PCB and plate) and then that's it.

Well, the Duck Mini and Duck Viper/Eagle can too. As well as the Duck Lightpad, which is a number pad.

And then yes, of course, the Kingsaver.

Can I pm leeku for that plate and pcb for lz fe?

[axtran]

Can I ask you guys what is the other custom board that can accept alps beside kingsaver and the alps party keyboard?

As far as I know (thanks to itzmeluigi), there's the LZ-FE and Orion v2 (both need the Leeku Alphas PCB and plate) and then that's it.

Well, the Duck Mini and Duck Viper/Eagle can too. As well as the Duck Lightpad, which is a number pad.

And then yes, of course, the Kingsaver.

Can I pm leeku for that plate and pcb for lz fe?

Why don't you just try?

He's pretty busy fulfilling Compact SQ GB orders right now, but he's answered all of my questions via PM.

[E3E]

Can I pm leeku for that plate and pcb for lz fe?

You can certainly try. 

[bocahgundul]

Can I ask you guys what is the other custom board that can accept alps beside kingsaver and the alps party keyboard?

As far as I know (thanks to itzmeluigi), there's the LZ-FE and Orion v2 (both need the Leeku Alphas PCB and plate) and then that's it.

Well, the Duck Mini and Duck Viper/Eagle can too. As well as the Duck Lightpad, which is a number pad.

And then yes, of course, the Kingsaver.

Can I pm leeku for that plate and pcb for lz fe?

Why don't you just try?

He's pretty busy fulfilling Compact SQ GB orders right now, but he's answered all of my questions via PM.

Thank you!

[henz]

Can I ask you guys what is the other custom board that can accept alps beside kingsaver and the alps party keyboard?

As far as I know (thanks to itzmeluigi), there's the LZ-FE and Orion v2 (both need the Leeku Alphas PCB and plate) and then that's it.

Well, the Duck Mini and Duck Viper/Eagle can too. As well as the Duck Lightpad, which is a number pad.

And then yes, of course, the Kingsaver.

Can I pm leeku for that plate and pcb for lz fe?

Why don't you just try?

He's pretty busy fulfilling Compact SQ GB orders right now, but he's answered all of my questions via PM.

Thank you!

Please let me know hos this goes.

[bocahgundul]

Can I ask you guys what is the other custom board that can accept alps beside kingsaver and the alps party keyboard?

As far as I know (thanks to itzmeluigi), there's the LZ-FE and Orion v2 (both need the Leeku Alphas PCB and plate) and then that's it.

Well, the Duck Mini and Duck Viper/Eagle can too. As well as the Duck Lightpad, which is a number pad.

And then yes, of course, the Kingsaver.

Can I pm leeku for that plate and pcb for lz fe?

Why don't you just try?

He's pretty busy fulfilling Compact SQ GB orders right now, but he's answered all of my questions via PM.

Thank you!

Please let me know hos this goes.

Ok bro. Anybody that haves LZ that wants the pcb and plate too?

[henz]

Can I ask you guys what is the other custom board that can accept alps beside kingsaver and the alps party keyboard?

As far as I know (thanks to itzmeluigi), there's the LZ-FE and Orion v2 (both need the Leeku Alphas PCB and plate) and then that's it.

Well, the Duck Mini and Duck Viper/Eagle can too. As well as the Duck Lightpad, which is a number pad.

And then yes, of course, the Kingsaver.

Can I pm leeku for that plate and pcb for lz fe?

Why don't you just try?

He's pretty busy fulfilling Compact SQ GB orders right now, but he's answered all of my questions via PM.

Thank you!

Please let me know hos this goes.

Ok bro. Anybody that haves LZ that wants the pcb and plate too?

Goes wothout saying i want it

[bocahgundul]

Can I ask you guys what is the other custom board that can accept alps beside kingsaver and the alps party keyboard?

As far as I know (thanks to itzmeluigi), there's the LZ-FE and Orion v2 (both need the Leeku Alphas PCB and plate) and then that's it.

Well, the Duck Mini and Duck Viper/Eagle can too. As well as the Duck Lightpad, which is a number pad.

And then yes, of course, the Kingsaver.

Can I pm leeku for that plate and pcb for lz fe?

Why don't you just try?

He's pretty busy fulfilling Compact SQ GB orders right now, but he's answered all of my questions via PM.

Thank you!

Please let me know hos this goes.

Ok bro. Anybody that haves LZ that wants the pcb and plate too?

Goes wothout saying i want it

Bruh.
If we could gather some interest we could easily get the pcb and plate!

[Blaise170]

That's polished up into an incredible keyboard. What would one use to get the yellow out of the plastic, short of dyeing?

I have a Retrobright setup in my closet, the bulb is about a foot from the shelf so I exchange the bulb with my CFL blacklight and place the boards on the shelf wrapped in plastic with 40% hydrogen peroxide gel.

That looks great! AEK's really do come out nicely. The only reason I swapped SKCM Orange into my SGI Granite rather than just buy a AEK is because moving the bumps to D/K kill my typist speed, and swapping the caps looks awful imo.

Yeah the dots on DK are an oddity but not enough for me not to use it. I barely use them anyways.

Show Image

You know you're dedicated to Alps when your desoldering gun has a tip just for em. The legs on Alps are slightly bigger than MX switches.

Really? The tip included on my Aoyue fits Alps just fine.

I need a real desoldering gun. Harvesting an entire AEKII worth of SKCM creams the other day was simply exhausting.

I'd suggest getting an Aoyue if you can, they aren't quite as nice as Hakko but I'm loving my rework station.

[bocahgundul]

Can I ask you guys what is the other custom board that can accept alps beside kingsaver and the alps party keyboard?

As far as I know (thanks to itzmeluigi), there's the LZ-FE and Orion v2 (both need the Leeku Alphas PCB and plate) and then that's it.

Well, the Duck Mini and Duck Viper/Eagle can too. As well as the Duck Lightpad, which is a number pad.

And then yes, of course, the Kingsaver. Oh, and Leeku made an MXAlps PCB for the G80-3000 too. It supported it under one revision at least, then cut support for Alps after the next revision, I think.

Right, and lastly the upcoming VE.A will support both MX and Alps.

If you want to go further, there's the Infinity, Infinity Ergodox, Alps Party, and Clueboard that all support Alps too, aaaand the Monarch.

So the only tkl is kingsaver,lz fe and orion v2 right? Korean custom doesn't have much option on alps eh?

Uh I wish that every custom have an option for alps plate and a pcb that supports both like the clueboard!

[henz]

Can I ask you guys what is the other custom board that can accept alps beside kingsaver and the alps party keyboard?

As far as I know (thanks to itzmeluigi), there's the LZ-FE and Orion v2 (both need the Leeku Alphas PCB and plate) and then that's it.

Well, the Duck Mini and Duck Viper/Eagle can too. As well as the Duck Lightpad, which is a number pad.

And then yes, of course, the Kingsaver.

Can I pm leeku for that plate and pcb for lz fe?

Why don't you just try?

He's pretty busy fulfilling Compact SQ GB orders right now, but he's answered all of my questions via PM.

Thank you!

Please let me know hos this goes.

Ok bro. Anybody that haves LZ that wants the pcb and plate too?

Goes wothout saying i want it

Bruh.
If we could gather some interest we could easily get the pcb and plate!

Do an IC, I can help out to some extent.

[bocahgundul]

Can I ask you guys what is the other custom board that can accept alps beside kingsaver and the alps party keyboard?

As far as I know (thanks to itzmeluigi), there's the LZ-FE and Orion v2 (both need the Leeku Alphas PCB and plate) and then that's it.

Well, the Duck Mini and Duck Viper/Eagle can too. As well as the Duck Lightpad, which is a number pad.

And then yes, of course, the Kingsaver.

Can I pm leeku for that plate and pcb for lz fe?

Why don't you just try?

He's pretty busy fulfilling Compact SQ GB orders right now, but he's answered all of my questions via PM.

Thank you!

Please let me know hos this goes.

Ok bro. Anybody that haves LZ that wants the pcb and plate too?

Goes wothout saying i want it

Bruh.
If we could gather some interest we could easily get the pcb and plate!

Do an IC, I can help out to some extent.

Sure bro! I'll make an IC when leeku replied to my Message

[mastermachetier]

Does anyone have a few different common alps switches they can send my way for me to try I am willing to pay ? Interested in alps green, white , cream, cream dampened , salmon , white dampened, and matias as well . Also if you have the more rare ones you don't mind letting me try . I am also willing to pay for shipping here and back if someone wants to lend me some .

Thanks !!

[Blaise170]

Does anyone have a few different common alps switches they can send my way for me to try I am willing to pay ? Interested in alps green, white , cream, cream dampened , salmon , white dampened, and matias as well . Also if you have the more rare ones you don't mind letting me try . I am also willing to pay for shipping here and back if someone wants to lend me some .

Thanks !!

Green, Cream, and White Damped aren't common. 

[mastermachetier]

Does anyone have a few different common alps switches they can send my way for me to try I am willing to pay ? Interested in alps green, white , cream, cream dampened , salmon , white dampened, and matias as well . Also if you have the more rare ones you don't mind letting me try . I am also willing to pay for shipping here and back if someone wants to lend me some .

Thanks !!

Green, Cream, and White Damped aren't common. 

Good to know

[fohat.digs]

white dampened are common, look for end-run AEK2s copyright 1995

Orihalcon is selling some fine test kits on ebay.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/281933137057?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

[jacobolus]

Hey bocahgundul and henz (and others): can you guys stop quoting whole nested comment chains? Just delete the part that’s not immediately relevant context for your comment. Nobody wants to look at the same giant blob of nested chitchat ten times in a row.

Example:

More

Can I ask you guys what is the other custom board that can accept alps beside kingsaver and the alps party keyboard?

As far as I know (thanks to itzmeluigi), there's the LZ-FE and Orion v2 (both need the Leeku Alphas PCB and plate) and then that's it.

Well, the Duck Mini and Duck Viper/Eagle can too. As well as the Duck Lightpad, which is a number pad.

And then yes, of course, the Kingsaver.

Can I pm leeku for that plate and pcb for lz fe?

Why don't you just try?

He's pretty busy fulfilling Compact SQ GB orders right now, but he's answered all of my questions via PM.

Thank you!

Please let me know hos this goes.

Ok bro. Anybody that haves LZ that wants the pcb and plate too?

Goes wothout saying i want it

Bruh.
If we could gather some interest we could easily get the pcb and plate!

Do an IC, I can help out to some extent.

Sure bro! I'll make an IC when leeku replied to my Message

[henz]

Hey bocahgundul and henz (and others): can you guys stop quoting whole nested comment chains? Just delete the part that’s not immediately relevant context for your comment. Nobody wants to look at the same giant blob of nested chitchat ten times in a row.

Example:

More

Can I ask you guys what is the other custom board that can accept alps beside kingsaver and the alps party keyboard?

As far as I know (thanks to itzmeluigi), there's the LZ-FE and Orion v2 (both need the Leeku Alphas PCB and plate) and then that's it.

Well, the Duck Mini and Duck Viper/Eagle can too. As well as the Duck Lightpad, which is a number pad.

And then yes, of course, the Kingsaver.

Can I pm leeku for that plate and pcb for lz fe?

Why don't you just try?

He's pretty busy fulfilling Compact SQ GB orders right now, but he's answered all of my questions via PM.

Thank you!

Please let me know hos this goes.

Ok bro. Anybody that haves LZ that wants the pcb and plate too?

Goes wothout saying i want it

Bruh.
If we could gather some interest we could easily get the pcb and plate!

Do an IC, I can help out to some extent.

Sure bro! I'll make an IC when leeku replied to my Message

Thank you for your input . I wouldn't normally do that, but its not easy to edit forum quotes on my nexus phone(having a newbie taking upp all my spare time). I know you're going to say something in the lines of: "stop quoting then". This was important, just wanted to make sure it reached the recipient.

[romevi]

white dampened are common, look for end-run AEK2s copyright 1995

Orihalcon is selling some fine test kits on ebay.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/281933137057?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

I saw that, but the price seemed a bit steep. Is it reasonable?

[fohat.digs]

Is it reasonable?

It would take several hundred dollars and several months, minimum, to do it the old-fashioned way: find and purchase 1 each of keyboards bearing those switches and try them yourself.

[E3E]

Is it reasonable?

It would take several hundred dollars and several months, minimum, to do it the old-fashioned way: find and purchase 1 each of keyboards bearing those switches and try them yourself.

Yeah, but then he could fashion testers himself and make a little profit

[bocahgundul]

Hey bocahgundul and henz (and others): can you guys stop quoting whole nested comment chains? Just delete the part that’s not immediately relevant context for your comment. Nobody wants to look at the same giant blob of nested chitchat ten times in a row.

Example:

More

Can I ask you guys what is the other custom board that can accept alps beside kingsaver and the alps party keyboard?

As far as I know (thanks to itzmeluigi), there's the LZ-FE and Orion v2 (both need the Leeku Alphas PCB and plate) and then that's it.

Well, the Duck Mini and Duck Viper/Eagle can too. As well as the Duck Lightpad, which is a number pad.

And then yes, of course, the Kingsaver.

Can I pm leeku for that plate and pcb for lz fe?

Why don't you just try?

He's pretty busy fulfilling Compact SQ GB orders right now, but he's answered all of my questions via PM.

Thank you!

Please let me know hos this goes.

Ok bro. Anybody that haves LZ that wants the pcb and plate too?

Goes wothout saying i want it

Bruh.
If we could gather some interest we could easily get the pcb and plate!

Do an IC, I can help out to some extent.

Sure bro! I'll make an IC when leeku replied to my Message

Good to know jacob, ah forgot to use @ cause editing post is hard on phone
This is the second time so I'm sorry

[khronokrator]

I'd suggest getting an Aoyue if you can, they aren't quite as nice as Hakko but I'm loving my rework station.

I looked up that Aoyue rework station just now on Amazon. Wow, talk about extensive. 

A bit out of my budget at the moment, so I'll have to make do with my cheap $30 soldering iron. I'm not really sure what I'd use the heat gun for, though.

[bocahgundul]

after a week of using blue alps I have to say that I can't appreciate blue alps at all!. I'm sorry alps god but I have to sell this board and next is green alps!

[Blaise170]

I have the 701A++ so it out only has the desoldering gun and iron, quite a bit cheaper too.

[fohat.digs]

Desoldering is not too bad if the tech who assembled it originally did not bend the legs over before soldering them!

[romevi]

after a week of using blue alps I have to say that I can't appreciate blue alps at all!. I'm sorry alps god but I have to sell this board and next is green alps!

I'll take it.

[njbair]

Desoldering is not too bad if the tech who assembled it originally did not bend the legs over before soldering them!

Why do they do this? Most of the Apple boards I've harvested, had a mix of bent and unbent.

[fohat.digs]

Why do they do this? Most of the Apple boards I've harvested, had a mix of bent and unbent.

If you put a few around "dry" and crimp them down, then they hold the plates together while you solder in the rest.
Otherwise, there could be some lift somewhere in between and the switch body would not be held tight against the plate.

[njbair]

Why do they do this? Most of the Apple boards I've harvested, had a mix of bent and unbent.

If you put a few around "dry" and crimp them down, then they hold the plates together while you solder in the rest.
Otherwise, there could be some lift somewhere in between and the switch body would not be held tight against the plate.

That would explain why they usually seem to be the ones on the outside of each key cluster. I always start in the corners when I build a board.

Thanks for the sensible explanation.

[jacobolus]

As fohat says, they typically bend a few leads down for help soldering the rest.

On the other hand, there are some OEMs / workers who just love bending the leads down, and sometimes you’ll get a board with most or all of the leads bent.

The trick to desoldering switches with bent leads is:

(1) Pull all the solder out that you can, as you would otherwise.
(2) Use some kind of pointy metal thing to apply upward pressure to the bent lead while you apply heat to the lead with your soldering iron tip. The lead should in general just “pop” free of the pad, without lifting the pad off the board.
(3) Unbend the lead using some small snipe-nose pliers.

If many of the switches have bent leads, it’s fastest to do these with a batch process: first remove the solder from all the joints, then unstick all the leads from the pads, then unbend all the leads, then remove the PCB. (With Alps switches in particular, it’s better to pull the PCB off the back and then carefully remove switches from the plate from the back side, to avoid breaking the little plastic “wings” on the sides of the switch housing.)

Once you get the hang of it and get into a nice flow, desoldering a lead with bent leads takes about 2x the time of desoldering any other switch. (Amortized time, after batching different steps.)

[E3E]

Why do they do this? Most of the Apple boards I've harvested, had a mix of bent and unbent.

If you put a few around "dry" and crimp them down, then they hold the plates together while you solder in the rest.
Otherwise, there could be some lift somewhere in between and the switch body would not be held tight against the plate.

I guess they never heard of just keeping the PCB upside down and soldering the switches at the corners and any points that would help anchor the two parts together before working on the rest, eh?

We all know that it's possible to have a tight fit without crimping the legs.

[jacobolus]

If you’re running an assembly line which needs to produce X keyboards per hour with a mixed-skill workforce doing the soldering, you want to have a well-defined process which cuts the defect rate to the extent possible while keeping throughput up. Bending the leads down at the corners of the PCB is an entirely reasonable thing to do.

[fohat.digs]

Bending the leads down at the corners of the PCB is an entirely reasonable thing to do.

Plus, they never anticipated anything more than a very rare single switch replacement repair job.

[E3E]

If you’re running an assembly line which needs to produce X keyboards per hour with a mixed-skill workforce doing the soldering, you want to have a well-defined process which cuts the defect rate to the extent possible while keeping throughput up. Bending the leads down at the corners of the PCB is an entirely reasonable thing to do.

Oh, it's not unreasonable at all. I'm sure there was no anticipation that their keyboards would reach enthusiast level in 20 + years time with people making efforts to remove the switches for their own projects or swapping in different switches which were never commonly available to the public outside of other keyboards. Even so, that wasn't their intended purpose anyway. It's just fun to nitpick, though I have seen a few (but not many) boards with no bent pins at all.

To do something quick and efficiently and with good repeatability, yeah, bending the pins over would be a great way to handle it. It's hard to believe that someone manually put these together by hand. I have no idea how assembly lines worked back in the day, but it kind of boggles my mind if that was the case.

[njbair]

If you’re running an assembly line which needs to produce X keyboards per hour with a mixed-skill workforce doing the soldering, you want to have a well-defined process which cuts the defect rate to the extent possible while keeping throughput up. Bending the leads down at the corners of the PCB is an entirely reasonable thing to do.

Oh, it's not unreasonable at all. I'm sure there was no anticipation that their keyboards would reach enthusiast level in 20 + years time with people making efforts to remove the switches for their own projects or swapping in different switches which were never commonly available to the public outside of other keyboards. Even so, that wasn't their intended purpose anyway.It's just fun to nitpick, though I have seen a few (but not many) boards with no bent pins at all.

To do something quick and efficiently and with good repeatability, yeah, bending the pins over would be a great way to handle it. It's hard to believe that someone manually put these together by hand. I have no idea how assembly lines worked back in the day, but it kind of boggles my mind if that was the case.

California. Lots of cheap migrant labor.

[jacobolus]

I’m think keyboard switches are still mostly soldered down by hand.

In general, there’s a huge amount of manual assembly still involved in making electronic gadgets.

[chyros]

I’m think keyboard switches are still mostly soldered down by hand.

In general, there’s a huge amount of manual assembly still involved in making electronic gadgets.

One of the guys at the recycling centre made PCBs, among others for keyboards. Apparently it's all done by machines. The solder is put on the contacts and is melted in a kind of oven. This would also explain why the contacts are bent on some or all of them, it simply uses that to keep the two together beforehand. He even mentioned that unlike the older boards, the new membrane ones can't be automated as easily because the membranes melt in the heat - so in a way it's more complicated to make rubber dome keyboards than the hi-tech ones before them .

[njbair]

I’m think keyboard switches are still mostly soldered down by hand.

In general, there’s a huge amount of manual assembly still involved in making electronic gadgets.

One of the guys at the recycling centre made PCBs, among others for keyboards. Apparently it's all done by machines. The solder is put on the contacts and is melted in a kind of oven. This would also explain why the contacts are bent on some or all of them, it simply uses that to keep the two together beforehand. He even mentioned that unlike the older boards, the new membrane ones can't be automated as easily because the membranes melt in the heat - so in a way it's more complicated to make rubber dome keyboards than the hi-tech ones before them.

Complicated, maybe, but I guess the material costs must be vastly lower than discrete switches or else rubber domes would have never become the standard for free/low cost keyboards.

Then again, had switches remained the standard past the early '90s, and thus has been produced at the scale of the dot com boom, I wonder how cheap they would be today.

[jacobolus]

[...] made PCBs, among others for keyboards. Apparently it's all done by machines. The solder is put on the contacts and is melted in a kind of oven.

I’m sure that’s the case for surface-mount components (microcontroller, resistors, diodes, etc.). We’re talking about the keyswitches themselves though. They can apparently do it with robots these days though:

[chyros]

[...] made PCBs, among others for keyboards. Apparently it's all done by machines. The solder is put on the contacts and is melted in a kind of oven.

I’m sure that’s the case for surface-mount components (microcontroller, resistors, diodes, etc.). We’re talking about the keyswitches themselves though. They can apparently do it with robots these days though:

Hmmm, could well be. Next time I see him I'll ask him in more detail .

[njbair]

[...] made PCBs, among others for keyboards. Apparently it's all done by machines. The solder is put on the contacts and is melted in a kind of oven.

I’m sure that’s the case for surface-mount components (microcontroller, resistors, diodes, etc.). We’re talking about the keyswitches themselves though. They can apparently do it with robots these days though:

Anything can be automated. It's just a question of whether the scale of production is large enough to amortize the substantial initial investment. Again, I'd bet if the Ergodox was sold by the hundred thousand, there would be a fully automated robotic assembly line pick-and-placing those switches prior to the robotic soldering.

[Blaise170]

Most keyboards are done in solder pools these days, just look at a Keycool or Rapoo PCB. On both I've found random bits of solder from the process.

[FoxWolf1]

Responding to the title of the thread: Yup, ALPS are nice.

Finally got around to replacing the D07-135 I took apart forever ago as part of a failed project. The only color left at this point is the pink ("strawberry"), but in the dim perpetual half-light of my apartment, it's almost red, and thus surprisingly inoffensive. Reckon they've still got a few left, if anyone wants to try tactile ALPS on the cheap.

[frogthejam19]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Acer-KB-101AS-Blue-Alps-Vintage-Keyboard-/111906352404?hash=item1a0e236d14:g:rDgAAOSwPc9Wwok1


Prices are really getting out of hand. I hope no one buys this so the prices of these boards can fall back down to earth where they belong. If this continues I guess I'll never get to type on a blue Alps board.

[fohat.digs]

so the prices of these boards can fall back down to earth where they belong.

Prices "belong" at whatever point at least 1 person is willing to pay.
Just because every buyer always wants prices to be low is irrelevant.

[njbair]

so the prices of these boards can fall back down to earth where they belong.

Prices "belong" at whatever point at least 1 person is willing to pay.
Just because every buyer always wants prices to be low is irrelevant.

I wish more people understood this. At least they all seem to understand it when it's time to sell their stuff.