Alps Appreciation Thread

[chyros]

Yeah, definitely D: . Of course, the reason they couldn't is because they didn't have to. As soon as making keyswitches turned less lucrative, they just focused on different things. Alps is a massive company so in a way it wasn't much more than an inconvenience. Cherry never had that choice, so they had to stay in the market.

That's true, Alps is a much larger company. It's easy to see them as the underdog when you're just looking at these to as if they were just keyboard switch companies, but Alps always had more going for it. It wasn't just a start-up that couldn't keep up with Cherry.

YES!!!!!!!!!!  

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More pics soon, need to crack this beast open and clean! Its all seems to be surface dirt and nothing serious. The Blues have Alps logos as well.

Photek bought one off off hammergammeler and it also had blue Alps with logos. It seems to be a trend with this one. The only other I've seen that with was the Apple IIc replacement keyboard.

Nice! :eek:

That the top housings have Alps logos is particularly interesting, late SKCM Blues it would seem.

EDIT: I am guessing they also have white switchplates too?

If they didn't, I'd be surprised. I have some no logo blues with white switch plates. I wonder if these have long or short plates. I'm guessing they're still long though. Orange had long switch plates even with the logos on the housings.

Gotta wonder HOW late these are, because my Acer and Leading Edge are both from 1989 and don't have switches with the logos. One even has grey switch plates while the other has white. So those two probably used left over stock. I guess these were actually from batches made in the late late 80s.

SKCM Blue is somewhat abysmally documented considering the amount we collectively know about them. It'd be cool if the community could pool resources to find out as much as we can about these lovely things :D .

[alienman82]

removed.

[Hypersphere]

I've found that the context of the switch can make a big difference in how much you will like them. Variables include metal vs plastic construction of the keyboard case and how much dirt has accumulated inside the switches.

"Case" in point, as it were: I recently acquired a Northgate 101 with white Alps and a Leading Edge DC-2014 with blue Alps. I find the typing experience with the Northgate superior to that of the Leading Edge.

[chyros]

Condition is EVERYTHING with Alps, I can't stress this enough. Other switches might only start to protest when they're half-destroyed, but the fickle Alps squirm with even the lightest amount of debris near. Having had so many different Alps boards in so many different conditions, the contrast between a used and an unused Alps board is just staggering. Once you go unused Alps, you never go back.

It's Alps' one defining weakness .

[fohat.digs]

the contrast between a used and an unused Alps board is just staggering. Once you go unused Alps, you never go back.

I don't know that "new" is actually the thing rather than "clean"

I still have an AT101W that I got with a Dell system in the late 1990s that still feels pretty good after *substantial* use (but not abuse), and I got one New-in-Box (but not hermetically sealed-in-plastic) a couple of years ago that was awful. There seemed to be some very fine dust that must have been atmospheric that had gotten all the way in.

[klennkellon]

Is there any way that the design of Alps could be changed so that they're not as susceptible to dust?

[chyros]

Is there any way that the design of Alps could be changed so that they're not as susceptible to dust?

Tbh I'm not sure what it is about Alps that makes them so susceptible in the first place xD .

the contrast between a used and an unused Alps board is just staggering. Once you go unused Alps, you never go back.

I don't know that "new" is actually the thing rather than "clean"

I still have an AT101W that I got with a Dell system in the late 1990s that still feels pretty good after *substantial* use (but not abuse), and I got one New-in-Box (but not hermetically sealed-in-plastic) a couple of years ago that was awful. There seemed to be some very fine dust that must have been atmospheric that had gotten all the way in.

You're right, a better term would be "like new" or just "clean and unused". Even NOS boards can be very dirty with some bad luck :/ .

Also, I've found that black Alps feel uncharacteristically stiff when completely unused. I've had three completely unused and sealed AT101s over time and they all felt a little rough at first. None of the other Alps switches I've tried had that, not even clones.

If I were a braver man I'd pull an Ellipse and make brand-new SKCM blue boards. But I'm not xD .

[digi]

Funny, I had a debounce issue on a alps switch, literally took it apart, blew some air through it and put it back together. It began to register perfectly...they definitely are more sensitive than all the other inferior switches

[E3E]

If I were a braver man I'd pull an Ellipse and make brand-new SKCM blue boards. But I'm not xD .

Yeah, I was going to make a joke about when you make it big on youtube and get rich in about a year or so, to come back to this, but the process of getting all that done and handled and working with factories itself is just really intimidating. You'd have tons to cover before any ground could be made, but we'd all be eternally grateful, haha.

Seriously though, your channel is starting to get a lot more attention these days, which is awesome, man. It's definitely going to blow up at some point.

Funny, I had a debounce issue on a alps switch, literally took it apart, blew some air through it and put it back together. It began to register perfectly...they definitely are more sensitive than all the other inferior switches

I had one do this to me on my Acer. I opened the switch and messed with the contact leaf spring and got it working like a charm again with no issues. It's hard to really kill an Alps switch, but I have encountered some that no kind of shimming or contact bending could fix. Don't know what happens to the contacts that makes them just die, since they're so well-contained and use that spring to push the plates together. Hmm.

I also had an issue with the backspace and space bar not returning properly on one board, and it was the return springs seeming to have worn out or getting softer. The keys would stick at times and it was the most annoying thing. At first, I thought it was a stab issue. Nope. Lubing didn't do a thing. Then I realized it was the return spring and swapping them out worked like a charm.

[emdude]

Once you go unused Alps, you never go back.

Quite literally too.

Is there any way that the design of Alps could be changed so that they're not as susceptible to dust?

Tbh I'm not sure what it is about Alps that makes them so susceptible in the first place xD .

The wear comes from the friction between a dusty slider and the housing, right?  Maybe simplifying the design of the slider, perhaps making it plainly rectangular like KPT switches, would help.

If I were a braver man I'd pull an Ellipse and make brand-new SKCM blue boards. But I'm not xD .

If you do ever go through with this, I think a partnership with Matias would be very appropriate and would expedite a number of things, I'd imagine.

[E3E]

Gone back to typing on my Orion with buttery smooth SKCM Blues from the heavy SKCL Browns in the NCR. I mean, those are really fun to type on with the thick tai hao caps, but it's like...

The bump down in weighting and that old familiar click was nice to return to. <3

[klennkellon]

Do linear Alps typically hold up a little a little longer so long as they remain clean? You don't have to worry about the metal on the click leaf wearing out.

tbh I almost don't want to use this SKCL brown board as my daily driver because It's in such pristine condition and I want to preserve it! Need to get a board with something slightly less obscure and rare like some SKCM Orange

[Hypersphere]

@Chyros: To quote your words above, "Once you go unused Alps, you never go back."

Does this mean that you can never use them?

[alienman82]

removed.

[E3E]

Do linear Alps typically hold up a little a little longer so long as they remain clean? You don't have to worry about the metal on the click leaf wearing out.

I think it's about the same for both. I'd say linear alps are a little more vulnerable ONLY because their entire feeling rides on that smooth linear travel. I'd say you don't have anything to worry about when it comes to the switches just suddenly changing feel on you. They won't!

Pretty much only keyboards stored in junk yards or in otherwise really dusty (especially fine dust) areas will have issues. I keep all my keyboards in boxes or cases when I'm not using except for the one Docutech I like to display and whatever keyboard is in the current rotation at my desk.

So yeah, unless your place is crazy dusty, you should be fine, especially if you store your boards away or keep them in rotation.

[emdude]

Do linear Alps typically hold up a little a little longer so long as they remain clean? You don't have to worry about the metal on the click leaf wearing out.

I think it's about the same for both. I'd say linear alps are a little more vulnerable ONLY because their entire feeling rides on that smooth linear travel. I'd say you don't have anything to worry about when it comes to the switches just suddenly changing feel on you. They won't!

Pretty much only keyboards stored in junk yards or in otherwise really dusty (especially fine dust) areas will have issues. I keep all my keyboards in boxes or cases when I'm not using except for the one Docutech I like to display and whatever keyboard is in the current rotation at my desk.

So yeah, unless your place is crazy dusty, you should be fine, especially if you store your boards away or keep them in rotation.

I imagine that the lack of a tactile/clicky leaf also means one less contact point by which a slider can wear out.

That said, I don't think wear on the slider is an issue as long as you're only considering later SKCM switches.  You can simply swap sliders if they are damaged, even for ones from Matias switches.  It is the early SKCM switches that are lubricated that are irreplaceable, at this point.

[E3E]

True, the click and tactile leaves would/could eventually wear the slider at the points they meet. It is interesting that the earlier linears had symmetrical sliders. Still wonder why they did that when SKCM didn't.

[emdude]

Isn't the edge (where it would meet the leaf) of an SKCM slider more rounded on the switchplate side?  This is just a conjecture but I think the click/tactile leaf side of the slider has a sharper edge, thus the asymmetry, to help produce the desired tactility.

EDIT: Ah, according to the DT wiki, the sharper edge is to reduce drag, which makes sense.

[Mattr567]

The Packard Bell is fully restored! Typing on it right now. Clean up super well, even though it took all damn day lol. Cleaning the individual switches took the longest by far. No rust on the plate at all, and combined with the lack of yellowing I guess that this board was not used very much, but just had a good amt. of surface crud. Looks brand new. Types amazing. The metal back plate is thinner than I thought but better than plastic nonetheless.

The SKCM Blue's use long white plates w/ logo's. Model number is T9102. I think in that other geekhack thread where it was T9201 was just a typo. 102 makes sense since the oem model number is FDA-102. The chip on it is from 1989.
Pics!

[E3E]

You actually opened and cleaned every switch? It looked clean enough to not have to do that, haha. That's dedication. I only did that on my Docutechs because of the rarity of the switches.

I technically did it on my SKCL Browns in my NCR and SKCL Greens in my Hammer Alps board because I lubed the springs to get rid of that terrible ping, but yeah. Most blue Alps boards I've had, if not all of them, except for a really grimy FK-2001 from TaoBao, didn't really need any cleaning switch wise and they all felt great.

[Mattr567]

You actually opened and cleaned every switch? It looked clean enough to not have to do that, haha. That's dedication. I only did that on my Docutechs because of the rarity of the switches.

I technically did it on my SKCL Browns in my NCR and SKCL Greens in my Hammer Alps board because I lubed the springs to get rid of that terrible ping, but yeah. Most blue Alps boards I've had, if not all of them, except for a really grimy FK-2001 from TaoBao, didn't really need any cleaning and they all felt great.

Yea. I've done my SGI twice (before and after switch swap) and FK-3001 as well. In the 3001 they made a huge difference and in the other three times more minor. I did it in this case since someone had spilled something on in the past and wanted to make sure it was all good.

Specfially in this case it made them feel a bit more snappy and tactile. Minor imo, but do it once and your done. The only board I didn't do was my Greens from my Zenith since they felt perfect. Still a pain in the ass even though I've gotten quite quick at it. Total time for restro was around 4-5 hours straight. I'll put on twitch or a podcast so I don't get bored.

Total around 750 switches at least, with all that and the Taobao stuff i'm slowly restoring. Not counting either the couple times I've swapped my pcb mount cherry board. Some goddamn dedication alright

[E3E]

You actually opened and cleaned every switch? It looked clean enough to not have to do that, haha. That's dedication. I only did that on my Docutechs because of the rarity of the switches.

I technically did it on my SKCL Browns in my NCR and SKCL Greens in my Hammer Alps board because I lubed the springs to get rid of that terrible ping, but yeah. Most blue Alps boards I've had, if not all of them, except for a really grimy FK-2001 from TaoBao, didn't really need any cleaning and they all felt great.

Yea. I've done my SGI twice (before and after switch swap) and FK-3001 as well. In the 3001 they made a huge difference and in the other three times more minor. I did it in this case since someone had spilled something on in the past and wanted to make sure it was all good.

Specfially in this case it made them feel a bit more snappy and tactile. Minor imo, but do it once and your done. The only board I didn't do was my Greens from my Zenith since they felt perfect. Still a pain in the ass even though I've gotten quite quick at it. Total time for restro was around 4-5 hours straight. I'll put on twitch or a podcast so I don't get bored.

Total around 750 switches at least, with all that and the Taobao stuff i'm slowly restoring. Not counting either the couple times I've swapped my pcb mount cherry board. Some goddamn dedication alright

Oh snap, someone didn't actually spill something in that Packard Bell, did they?

Yeah, that's definitely some dedication though. The Packard looks clean! Only thing I always thought was funky on that board was the bottom plate and its feet.

[Mattr567]

You actually opened and cleaned every switch? It looked clean enough to not have to do that, haha. That's dedication. I only did that on my Docutechs because of the rarity of the switches.

I technically did it on my SKCL Browns in my NCR and SKCL Greens in my Hammer Alps board because I lubed the springs to get rid of that terrible ping, but yeah. Most blue Alps boards I've had, if not all of them, except for a really grimy FK-2001 from TaoBao, didn't really need any cleaning and they all felt great.

Yea. I've done my SGI twice (before and after switch swap) and FK-3001 as well. In the 3001 they made a huge difference and in the other three times more minor. I did it in this case since someone had spilled something on in the past and wanted to make sure it was all good.

Specfially in this case it made them feel a bit more snappy and tactile. Minor imo, but do it once and your done. The only board I didn't do was my Greens from my Zenith since they felt perfect. Still a pain in the ass even though I've gotten quite quick at it. Total time for restro was around 4-5 hours straight. I'll put on twitch or a podcast so I don't get bored.

Total around 750 switches at least, with all that and the Taobao stuff i'm slowly restoring. Not counting either the couple times I've swapped my pcb mount cherry board. Some goddamn dedication alright

Oh snap, someone didn't actually spill something in that Packard Bell, did they?

Yeah, that's definitely some dedication though. The Packard looks clean! Only thing I always thought was funky on that board was the bottom plate and its feet.

Not exactly sure if it was a spill but some white goo-y stuff on the bottom of the numpad. Under an Alt key also there was also some weird stuff that looked like a spider web. All cleaned up however

Yea, to remove the metal plate you have to put up the rubber feet. Its not attached to the plate at all unlike other boards. Overall a good build.

[mike52787]

Bought this, what do you guys think? couldnt really pass up this deal.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/371704655117?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

[alienman82]

removed.

[mike52787]

Bought this, what do you guys think? couldnt really pass up this deal.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/371704655117?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

tempted me the other day, but I don't like clicky boards too much hahah

doubtless that it was a good deal though.

[Mattr567]

One interesting thing though is that unlike the Zenith Z-150 I had which had some flex in the plate since it was mounted only at the sides into the top case, the Packard has that and some extra middle screws to prevent flex.

Bought this, what do you guys think? couldnt really pass up this deal.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/371704655117?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Great deal. Those ANSI ones always go for a lot more than the BAE's.

[E3E]

I think I've seen a lot of my boards with screws in the PCB to keep them together. Ugh, it's been so long since I've taken apart the FAME, but I think it did as well. For a board whose descendants almost all had shoddy build quality, the FAME I have was pretty well built. It even had brass threaded screw inserts. The only board I've seen that on since is the DC-3014.

The Acer KB101A definitely has screws to keep the PCB pinned to the plate. I forget if the LE DC-3014 does. Definitely cool though and it's a good way to kill flex indeed.

Did you know the Docutechs had no screws at all? Aside from a screw or two to pin the PCB and plate together. Taking the case apart is all a matter of releasing tabs, which is how a lot of Cherry cases are, actually. The NCR case just uses tabs too.

All metal bottom boards are top mounted too when it comes to the plate, which is neat. Gives things a bit more of a cushioned feel with some natural give.

[mike52787]

I think I've seen a lot of my boards with screws in the PCB to keep them together. Ugh, it's been so long since I've taken apart the FAME, but I think it did as well. For a board whose descendants almost all had shoddy build quality, the FAME I have was pretty well built.

The Acer KB101A definitely has screws to keep the PCB pinned to the plate. I forget if the LE DC-3014 does. Definitely cool though and it's a good way to kill flex indeed.

I know that omnikeys have their pcbs bolted to their plates.

[klennkellon]

$70 for an Omnikey seems like a reasonable deal, you are dealing with a board that is arguably more durable than the Model M.

[chyros]

Jeez, a lot to reply here xD .

If I were a braver man I'd pull an Ellipse and make brand-new SKCM blue boards. But I'm not xD .

If you do ever go through with this, I think a partnership with Matias would be very appropriate and would expedite a number of things, I'd imagine.

I dunno, frankly I doubt it, because I'd be marketing a product specifically to out-perform his own xD .

Yeah, I was going to make a joke about when you make it big on youtube and get rich in about a year or so, to come back to this, but the process of getting all that done and handled and working with factories itself is just really intimidating. You'd have tons to cover before any ground could be made, but we'd all be eternally grateful, haha.

Seriously though, your channel is starting to get a lot more attention these days, which is awesome, man. It's definitely going to blow up at some point.

Haha I seriously doubt that, vintage mechanical keyboards aren't exactly mainstream xD .

Funny, I had a debounce issue on a alps switch, literally took it apart, blew some air through it and put it back together. It began to register perfectly...they definitely are more sensitive than all the other inferior switches

I'm actually typing on the only Alps keyboard with a chattering switch that I have. The 0 key doesn't register properly, and chatters. I've tried to clean it out but it only relieved it momentarily. In truth, Alps switches are quite resilient against chatter, much more than Cherry, due to the design of the switchplate, which is quite durable. Fortunately I have hundreds of spares xD .

@Chyros: To quote your words above, "Once you go unused Alps, you never go back."

Does this mean that you can never use them?

Well, yes, ironically xD . I almost never use my Acer because I'm afraid of somehow damaging it xD .

$70 for an Omnikey seems like a reasonable deal, you are dealing with a board that is arguably more durable than the Model M.

I'd say it's built more like a Model F than an M xD .

[jaffers]

I've got more alps boards than cherry now and I didn't even have alps boards last week. What the ****

[chyros]

I've got more alps boards than cherry now and I didn't even have alps boards last week. What the ****

It's a deep, spiraling vortex from which there is no escaping .

[fohat.digs]

I know that omnikeys have their pcbs bolted to their plates.

Makes for a problem when you have a rusty plate that you want to clean and paint. The only realistic way to do it is to remove all the stabilizer clips, clean off the rust, and slip strips of paper in between the PCB and the plate to mask from spray and over-spray. Then re-insert the clips and away you go.

[alienman82]

removed.

[mike52787]

I know that omnikeys have their pcbs bolted to their plates.

Makes for a problem when you have a rusty plate that you want to clean and paint. The only realistic way to do it is to remove all the stabilizer clips, clean off the rust, and slip strips of paper in between the PCB and the plate to mask from spray and over-spray. Then re-insert the clips and away you go.

On my avant prime I removed the bolts with a soldering iron and alot of patience. I dont know what possessed them to make them want to solder the bolts to the pcb, but it sure is ****ty to remove.

[Mattr567]

Had a faulty switch on the Packard Bell. The num 0 key. Ended up being the contact. Removed the contact leaf, bent the little plastic hammer foward a bit and blew a bunch of air through it. Works perfect now.

I guess these things really are susceptible to dust lol.

[alh84001]

There's a once-laptop keyboard listed on e-bay. I hope I'm not clashing with someone else here when bidding on it.

[emdude]

I don't think DT's tradition of posting cat pictures to appease potential bidders is practiced here, but it might be appropriate in this case!

EDIT: I think I know which laptop-less keyboard you are talking about.  Hope you can nab it!

[alh84001]

Perhaps But I'm not asking for everyone to back off, I'm trying to spare us an all-out bidding war

Therefore I present just a simple ascii cat

Code: [Select]

  /\_/\
 ( o.o )
  > ^ <


[E3E]

Ahh, that must be the 5140 keyboard? That one is going to get a lot of bids; the seller mentioned to me that many people were asking about buying the keyboard alone, so he decided to lost it for auction.

[alh84001]

Yep. But I'm wondering how many will bite on the price of almost a full system. For US buyers there are other options, and they could have already bought the whole setup for a marginal difference in price. In the end I expect someone from Ukraine to place a bid double the usual value. Happened to me once already 

[mike52787]

I would bid on that, but I hate bidding against other geekhackers. all yours pal

[Hypersphere]

Regarding IBM 5140 keyboards, I have been fortunate a couple of times to have been able to convince sellers of the entire system to sell me only the keyboard. It saves them hassle of shipping a much larger item and it cuts down the shipping cost. I've guided them through the relatively simple procedure of lifting out the keyboard and disconnecting the ribbon cable.

One seller even reduced the price still further after he damaged the ribbon connector.

Of course, you also get sellers who do not want to break up the system.

Either way, with patience and luck, I have managed to get several of these at fairly reasonable prices. However, 5140s seem to be becoming less plentiful and prices are escalating.

[E3E]

I don't know if it's that they're less plentiful; they seem just as common as they've been in the past year, but it's as it always has been: you get some sellers that list them very painfully high prices and others that list them for scrap prices. It's like this for the Apple IIc A2S4100 systems as well. 

[Mattr567]

I don't know if it's that they're less plentiful; they seem just as common as they've been in the past year, but it's as it always has been: you get some sellers that list them very painfully high prices and others that list them for scrap prices. It's like this for the Apple IIc A2S4100 systems as well. 

Yea. Its either super expensive or dirt cheap. More with the IIC's than the 5140's I feel. Seen more beat up ones with missing caps go for $30-40

[MandrewDavis]

I would bid on that, but I hate bidding against other geekhackers. all yours pal

The seller was initially going to sell it to me last night once he dropped the price, even talked and requested an invoice for lower shipping. Pretty disappointing to see a message this morning about listing it for auction.

Anyway, I am impatient to try brown alps, plz don't bid against me.

[E3E]

I would bid on that, but I hate bidding against other geekhackers. all yours pal

The seller was initially going to sell it to me last night once he dropped the price, even talked and requested an invoice for lower shipping. Pretty disappointing to see a message this morning about listing it for auction.

Anyway, I am impatient to try brown alps, plz don't bid against me.

I've had this happen to me too many times just the same, brother.

It sucks.

[alienman82]

removed.

[klennkellon]

Did anyone here ever try those clicky green Alps clones on those XM Ducky's awhile back? I've heard the build quality of the board itself was complete trash but interested in the switches, they had a neat sound.