Alps Appreciation Thread

[klennkellon]

I used to have a IIgs with orange alps. I loved it but sold it because
!. Made some profit
2. Needed the teensy
3. No rollover.

The M0116 has really crappy rollover too.  Unsuitable for stuff like gaming.

to add onto this, my packard bell has really crappy rollover, barely any 3+ combinations work.

[mike52787]

I used to have a IIgs with orange alps. I loved it but sold it because
!. Made some profit
2. Needed the teensy
3. No rollover.

The M0116 has really crappy rollover too.  Unsuitable for stuff like gaming.

to add onto this, my packard bell has really crappy rollover, barely any 3+ combinations work.

Thats a real shame, especially since its a linear board.

[Aran.E99]

For me, key rollover is everything. As much as I loved orange alps, it made me hate the board. If I get round to my perfect alps build, I will specifically look for key rollover.

[mike52787]

For me, key rollover is everything. As much as I loved orange alps, it made me hate the board. If I get round to my perfect alps build, I will specifically look for key rollover.

Most customs have nkro capability, so youll be good there. are you interested in a 60% custom? if so hasu's alps64 pcb supports nkro and is fully programmable. The only readily available tkl pcb for alps/matias is the kbp v80, it also supports nkro.

[Aran.E99]

By custom, i mean putting switches of my choice in a vintage board. Also out of curiosity, what is plate compatibility like?. Lets say I solder my alps switch of choice into an AT101W plate, will the at101w plate fit any other cases?  I could have it like a sleeper car (a really crappy car that has a very powerful engine in) (basically a stock at101w with blues)

[mike52787]

By custom, i mean putting switches of my choice in a vintage board. Also out of curiosity, what is plate compatibility like?. Lets say I solder my alps switch of choice into an AT101W plate, will the at101w plate fit any other cases?  I could have it like a sleeper car (a really crappy car that has a very powerful engine in) (basically a stock at101w with blues)

if I were you I wouldnt bother with an at101w. desoldering them is a real ***** because silitek had the great idea of bending over the legs of the switches. If I was to swap switches I would start with a northgate omnikey.

[Aran.E99]

By custom, i mean putting switches of my choice in a vintage board. Also out of curiosity, what is plate compatibility like?. Lets say I solder my alps switch of choice into an AT101W plate, will the at101w plate fit any other cases?  I could have it like a sleeper car (a really crappy car that has a very powerful engine in) (basically a stock at101w with blues)

if I were you I wouldnt bother with an at101w. desoldering them is a real ***** because silitek had the great idea of bending over the legs of the switches. If I was to swap switches I would start with a northgate omnikey.

If I could afford an omnikey

I think if I can get some white alps, I will do the fk2001 for my first custom.

[mike52787]

By custom, i mean putting switches of my choice in a vintage board. Also out of curiosity, what is plate compatibility like?. Lets say I solder my alps switch of choice into an AT101W plate, will the at101w plate fit any other cases?  I could have it like a sleeper car (a really crappy car that has a very powerful engine in) (basically a stock at101w with blues)

if I were you I wouldnt bother with an at101w. desoldering them is a real ***** because silitek had the great idea of bending over the legs of the switches. If I was to swap switches I would start with a northgate omnikey.

If I could afford an omnikey

I think if I can get some white alps, I will do the fk2001 for my first custom.

They shouldnt be all that out of reach, atleast across the pond they arent. I paid about 70$ for mine shipped to my door.

[Aran.E99]

If you lived in the good ol' ye olde England, you would feel our struggle.

[chyros]

Got another Alps board, going to be a nice review in a few weeks I reckon .

I used to have a IIgs with orange alps. I loved it but sold it because
!. Made some profit
2. Needed the teensy
3. No rollover.

NO rollover! You mean it can't detect ANY keypresses simultaneously?!

Tbh there are precious few Alps boards with NKRO. Mostly it's the really heavy duty stuff, like OmniKeys and Zeniths.

If you lived in the good ol' ye olde England, you would feel our struggle.

Not impossible mate, just be assertive, I'm sure you can do it .

[Mattr567]

I used to have a IIgs with orange alps. I loved it but sold it because
!. Made some profit
2. Needed the teensy
3. No rollover.

The M0116 has really crappy rollover too.  Unsuitable for stuff like gaming.

to add onto this, my packard bell has really crappy rollover, barely any 3+ combinations work.

Same with my Packard Bell. Can't press arrow up, shift and x at the same time for example on BeamNG for shifting. Other than gaming the rollover doesn't have an effect. Wonder if it would be possible to do a bit of extra hand wiring to bypass the issue actually. Don't want to touch this thing with a Soldering Iron at all though.

[Aran.E99]

But the shipping is ridiculous. Guess I gotta stick to my SMKs and black alps

[mike52787]

I used to have a IIgs with orange alps. I loved it but sold it because
!. Made some profit
2. Needed the teensy
3. No rollover.

The M0116 has really crappy rollover too.  Unsuitable for stuff like gaming.

to add onto this, my packard bell has really crappy rollover, barely any 3+ combinations work.

Same with my Packard Bell. Can't press arrow up, shift and x at the same time for example on BeamNG for shifting. Other than gaming the rollover doesn't have an effect. Wonder if it would be possible to do a bit of extra hand wiring to bypass the issue actually. Don't want to touch this thing with a Soldering Iron at all though.

That would still be impossible unless you added a teensy to the equation. the original controller was only designed for 2kro.

[mike52787]

But the shipping is ridiculous. Guess I gotta stick to my SMKs and black alps

wow, you werent kidding. I just took a quick look through ebay.co.uk and I am even more thankful I live in the USA now.

[E3E]

Seems like the only ANSI vintage blue Alps board with NKRO is the Leading Edge DC-3014.  I looked around for so long to get mine at a reasonable price too. There WAS one that sold for $59 a month ago on eBay too.

But yeah, I was looking for a while for the DC-3014 just because of its NKRO. Outside of blue alps, I know the Omnikey 101 has it, and the Zenith ZKB-2 has it. Those are the only ANSI or ANSI-like boards I can think of with NKRO.

Quite a few of the 84 key (modified XT layout) boards I've seen had NKRO though. The Z-150s, the DC-2014, and even the Xerox 6085/DocuTechs all have NKRO (ironically, I could not use any of these examples when I owned them). I know there's more.

Also, that IBM Model M clone seemed to have diodes in its matrix if I'm not mistaken.

[mike52787]

My model m clone that came from taobao had no diodes.

[Aran.E99]

I have tried to low ball sellers to get stuff for cheaper but it doesn't work. This is why I need to move to the USA.

[E3E]

My model m clone that came from taobao had no diodes.

Snap, there we go. I was wondering that because it looked like it on the Deskthority thread, unless they had several versions.

I have tried to low ball sellers to get stuff for cheaper but it doesn't work. This is why I need to move to the USA.

I was blissfully hopeful when I first started my search for blue Alps boards, that I could find them for as low as $50, but I still haven't ever gotten one that cheap, and the average price I was paying was like, $100 for them.

I was happy to not pay $100 for the DC-2014 I bought. I feel that is too expensive for such a common model, but that's me being cheap, I guess. xP I snagged mine for $85. I actually got the DC-3014 for $5 less.

[Aran.E99]

My model m clone that came from taobao had no diodes.

Snap, there we go. I was wondering that because it looked like it on the Deskthority thread, unless they had several versions.

I have tried to low ball sellers to get stuff for cheaper but it doesn't work. This is why I need to move to the USA.

I was blissfully hopeful when I first started my search for blue Alps boards, that I could find them for as low as $50, but I still haven't ever gotten one that cheap, and the average price I was paying was like, $100 for them.

I was happy to not pay $100 for the DC-2014 I bought. I feel that is too expensive for such a common model, but that's me being cheap, I guess. xP I snagged mine for $85. I actually got the DC-3014 for $5 less.

Yeah, I've seen super cheap keyboards that I would get BUT ive seen some with postage 4x the price. A model M for $22 is amazing but im not paying $45 shipping...

[alienman82]

removed.

[emdude]

Yeah, there aren't enough Clacks here.

[alienman82]

removed.

[fohat.digs]

Just transplant in the switch type of your choice:

[Mattr567]

Switched to my SGI Granite w/ SKCM Orange from the Packard as my daily. Missed that solid PBT tactile sensation. Refreshing.

The Packard went with the rest of them in storage. Keep all of them faceup in a closed closet (no yellowing, although my SGI spacebar is a bit yellowed again ) with nothing on them besides their cables, and I try to keep that at a minimum.

[E3E]

Switched to my SGI Granite w/ SKCM Orange from the Packard as my daily. Missed that solid PBT tactile sensation. Refreshing.

The Packard went with the rest of them in storage. Keep all of them faceup in a closed closet (no yellowing, although my SGI spacebar is a bit yellowed again ) with nothing on them besides their cables, and I try to keep that at a minimum.

I've actually seen some of my DocuTechs seemingly get a slight bit yellow again after storing them away. I RB'd them twice. After the second time the 1997 hasn't, but maybe it's because I had it on display.

It's probably because our central AC unit broke three months ago. Even though my room was never steaming hot (used a window unit, but it wasn't too great at cooling the whole room), it might've gotten the boards to reyellow a little. Finally got the AC unit replaced though and it's frigid in here, so hopefully that doesn't happen again.

Only the parts that were formerly yellow did this. The boards I have with no yellowing didn't yellow at all, or the parts on the DocuTechs that weren't yellow to begin with.

[chyros]

Switched to my SGI Granite w/ SKCM Orange from the Packard as my daily. Missed that solid PBT tactile sensation. Refreshing.

The Packard went with the rest of them in storage. Keep all of them faceup in a closed closet (no yellowing, although my SGI spacebar is a bit yellowed again ) with nothing on them besides their cables, and I try to keep that at a minimum.

I've actually seen some of my DocuTechs seemingly get a slight bit yellow again after storing them away. I RB'd them twice. After the second time the 1997 hasn't, but maybe it's because I had it on display.

It's probably because our central AC unit broke three months ago. Even though my room was never steaming hot (used a window unit, but it wasn't too great at cooling the whole room), it might've gotten the boards to reyellow a little. Finally got the AC unit replaced though and it's frigid in here, so hopefully that doesn't happen again.

Only the parts that were formerly yellow did this. The boards I have with no yellowing didn't yellow at all, or the parts on the DocuTechs that weren't yellow to begin with.

I wrote a lengthy explanation on why this happens on DT, basically retrobright can't undo the damage to the plastic which leaves it vulnerable to attack by molecular oxygen.

[E3E]

I wrote a lengthy explanation on why this happens on DT, basically retrobright can't undo the damage to the plastic which leaves it vulnerable to attack by molecular oxygen.

I did read that, actually, but it'd take a few more reads to really sink in every detail.

Would you say that heat hastens the process of reyellowing? Are all retrobrighted keyboards truly destined to become yellowed again? Some of my boards haven't reyellowed as of now, but I have heard that it typically happens in the span of a few years.

It DEFINITELY seems like the yellowed (ie damaged) plastic is all that reyellows and not the plastic that never suffered it in the first place, though the UV treating that comes with retrobrighting worries me slightly when it comes to the plastic that hasn't yellowed being exposed.

I've actually never had old electronics yellow on me in my time of owning things like the SNES and others that were prone to it (even the gamecube's front bezel, I've heard). I've only ever received yellowed electronics in the way of vintage keyboards. 

[chyros]

I wrote a lengthy explanation on why this happens on DT, basically retrobright can't undo the damage to the plastic which leaves it vulnerable to attack by molecular oxygen.

I did read that, actually, but it'd take a few more reads to really sink in every detail.

Would you say that heat hastens the process of reyellowing? Are all retrobrighted keyboards truly destined to become yellowed again? Some of my boards haven't reyellowed as of now, but I have heard that it typically happens in the span of a few years.

It DEFINITELY seems like the yellowed (ie damaged) plastic is all that reyellows and not the plastic that never suffered it in the first place, though the UV treating that comes with retrobrighting worries me slightly when it comes to the plastic that hasn't yellowed being exposed.

I've actually never had old electronics yellow on me in my time of owning things like the SNES and others that were prone to it (even the gamecube's front bezel, I've heard). I've only ever received yellowed electronics in the way of vintage keyboards. 

Heat hastens all processes, so definitely, yeah.

The reason only the yellowed portions re-yellow again is because that's where the plastic is most damaged. I'm also pretty certain the treatment itself isn't exactly good for the plastic, either.

[E3E]

Heat hastens all processes, so definitely, yeah.

The reason only the yellowed portions re-yellow again is because that's where the plastic is most damaged. I'm also pretty certain the treatment itself isn't exactly good for the plastic, either.

That makes sense. Yeah, I've read that a certain museum decided against retrobrighting as a method for restoration because of how it weakens the plastic further.

Two questions for you, my expert chemist friend:

1) Is it at all possible to halt or prevent the reyellowing, or is it inevitable?

2) I'm not sure if you have, but do you forego retrobrighting because of this, or have you ever thought of doing it?

It's a shame, since the plastics look so much nicer with that fresh, new look. I wonder how much exposure to heat/UV led to the yellowing in the first place. It's so common to see yellowed boards from the '80s.
I know I've seen some yellowed Focus boards, but I can't recall many of those ever being too yellowed. Does the yellowing have to do mostly with different formulations used for the plastics?

[Blaise170]

Yeah, it makes sense what you're saying, reason I said salmon is probably because I don't have any brown boards yet xD . I only have three main colour Alps keyboards to go, I think xD.

Haha, yeah. I understand that. The lineage of SKCM brown is really strange to think about. It was what seems to be the first tactile Alps switch and then it went on up to 1989 and its unique force curve was continued on with SKCM green which continued into the late 90s at least. Still curious to see how long DocuTech keyboards were actually produced. 1998 is our latest date as of yet.

Sharp used scoops for the X68K

Those were ABS, right?

ABS. Also still need Lime and Brown Alps, those have stayed out of reach.

[Aran.E99]

Just transplant in the switch type of your choice:

i wish

[E3E]

ABS. Also still need Lime and Brown Alps, those have stayed out of reach.

Did you manage to snag some brown linear boards?

[Blaise170]

ABS. Also still need Lime and Brown Alps, those have stayed out of reach.

Did you manage to snag some brown linear boards?

No, only time I've been close is a VideoWriter but that was Mitsumi.

[chyros]

Heat hastens all processes, so definitely, yeah.

The reason only the yellowed portions re-yellow again is because that's where the plastic is most damaged. I'm also pretty certain the treatment itself isn't exactly good for the plastic, either.

That makes sense. Yeah, I've read that a certain museum decided against retrobrighting as a method for restoration because of how it weakens the plastic further.

Two questions for you, my expert chemist friend:

1) Is it at all possible to halt or prevent the reyellowing, or is it inevitable?

2) I'm not sure if you have, but do you forego retrobrighting because of this, or have you ever thought of doing it?

It's a shame, since the plastics look so much nicer with that fresh, new look. I wonder how much exposure to heat/UV led to the yellowing in the first place. It's so common to see yellowed boards from the '80s.
I know I've seen some yellowed Focus boards, but I can't recall many of those ever being too yellowed. Does the yellowing have to do mostly with different formulations used for the plastics?

No worries .

1) Unless you're working in an oxygen-free environment, this is not possible, unfortunately.

2) Partly. I also think that yellowing, while ugly, adds character. Of course I prefer boards without it, but I really don't mind if they are. I'm much more interested in condition. It's also not cheap. If I get a yellowed SGI Granite I might, though, as yellowing kind of clashes with its signature thing.

3) Yes, different formulations will result in different levels of yellowing. I don't think modern ABS would yellow nearly as quickly.

[klennkellon]

If the yellowing is very consistent across the board I don't mind it, but if it's very splotchy it makes me think of a disease.

[Hypersphere]

Yellowing also occurs in long-lived proteins in our bodies as we age. This occurs as a result of the Maillard reaction between amino groups on proteins and cabonyl groups on sugars. The lens of the eye contains proteins that persist throughout our lifetime. The lens starts out water-clear, but it gradually turns yellow and even orange as we age.


http://people.brandeis.edu/~sekuler/SensoryProcessesMaterial/eyesGetOld.html

The rate of yellowing depends upon a number of factors in addition to age, e.g., UV light exposure, blood sugar levels, genetics, and antioxidant levels.

The chemistry of aging and yellowing of synthetic polymers seems to depend heavily on UV-induced formation of free radicals, and so these reactions can be attenuated by surface coatings to block UV light and/or by adding free radical scavengers. Conversely, some flame retardants, especially brominated ones, can contribute to the formation of free radicals and accelerate the yellowing of synthetic polymers.

[Aran.E99]

i know i was told not to use a dell AT101W to swap switches, but i am doing it!. already got the top row desoldered... and the pump broke... maybe the keyboard God's way of telling me to not use an AT101W board?

i am the type of impatient person who just likes to get stuff done and since i have no other alps mount boards on hand, i may as well go for it. i am thinking that i may buy some PBT caps and dye them in a camo paint slash, exactly the same as Arnie in commando. if it goes well, i can finally let off some steam. (okay, i'm sorry for that joke but that was such a good opportunity)

the only thing i hate about the AT101W is the case. if all goes well, i might laser a sheet of acrylic and use standoffs to make a base.

[fohat.digs]

The AT101W is an excellent keyboard, the 2nd-best Alps chassis to receive your switches. It is well-built, sturdy, and feels great to type on. If you don't have a Northgate, Dell is the way to go. I have done it more than once.

Sometimes, the assembler got a little impulsive and bent over way too many legs (5%-10% is plenty) which makes removing the old ones much harder than it needs to be.

And the black cases are more desirable, but the AT101 is an awesome keyboard and not to be dismissed.

[Aran.E99]

The AT101W is an excellent keyboard, the 2nd-best Alps chassis to receive your switches. It is well-built, sturdy, and feels great to type on. If you don't have a Northgate, Dell is the way to go. I have done it more than once.

Sometimes, the assembler got a little impulsive and bent over way too many legs (5%-10% is plenty) which makes removing the old ones much harder than it needs to be.

And the black cases are more desirable, but the AT101 is an awesome keyboard and not to be dismissed.

yeah, i agree but people seem to think that i should use a slightly better keyboard. i would keep the switches stock (i modded the blacks to linear and clicky) but the plate is very rusty so i am going to sand it down and paint it. i guess keeping the stock black alps will keep the price low but i think white alps or even blues would be great.

[fohat.digs]

people seem to think that i should use a slightly better keyboard.

the plate is very rusty so i am going to sand it down and paint it.

The Dell "Bigfoot" keyboard is excellent all around, but lots of people have a fetish for smallness.

If you de-solder the switches (and the one that I used for the "faux-Dolch" model had *every single leg* bent over and was a major PITA) the plates will come apart immediately.

Sanding and painting is easy if you remove the plastic wire hold-down tabs, but they can be fussy and you probably don't have spares. I use a very small flat-head screwdriver and ease them in and out of their slots by gently bending the "C" portion slightly closed. Leaving them in place would make sanding and painting extremely difficult, but perhaps you could shield each one with a little spot of masking tape.

[Mattr567]

Bigfoots in general as well like the SGI Granite. My SKCM Orange swap in my SGI Bigfoot has been awesome.

[mike52787]

The only reason I advised against using an at101w was the folded over switch legs, never said anything about the build quality )

[fohat.digs]

The only reason I advised against using an at101w was the folded over switch legs, never said anything about the build quality

This is a function of whoever assembled it originally. Most of the ones that I have done were reasonable.

Half a dozen (4 corners and 2 interior) bend-overs is entirely adequate, but I suspect that newbies might have bent them all over to ensure passing QC. I doubt that an experienced assembler would continue to do it because of the wasted time and effort.

I have gotten other Alps boards with far too many legs bent over, as well, including one of my Northgates.

[chyros]

i know i was told not to use a dell AT101W to swap switches, but i am doing it!.

It's a pain to desolder all the switches because the pins on ALL of them are bent in the AT101, but the board is one of the better Alps chassis around, and certainly the most forthcoming.

[Aran.E99]

to be fair, it is a nice plate / board but i hate the case.

[ED2914]

I fixed and cleaned the fake Model M finally. The key feel is terrible as the key caps are too high. It's become very stiff when the press is not directly going downward.

It's surprising that the board is NKRO but the repeat rate will slow down quite a bit. While I use USB adapter, the board will downgrade to 6KRO but the repeat rate will back to normal.

I may try to de-solder the chip and change to Northgate Omnikey's one next week to see the difference.

[Mattr567]

I have a bunch of those Alps model m clone caps if anyone needs them. I think a couple of people have that board. They are the dyesub versions rather than the pad printed ones.

[Mattr567]

What is a good cleaning solution/method to clean the SKCL Green housings? Alcohol with a q tip and warm soapy water soak for a couple of hours hasn't cut it. Have a ton of switches from my China haul to put back together. Right now I have about 45 SKCM Blues that are fully restored. The blues are ready to put back together its just that summer is over i'm quite busy again. Will pick that up at a later point.

[mike52787]

What is a good cleaning solution/method to clean the SKCL Green housings? Alcohol with a q tip and warm soapy water soak for a couple of hours hasn't cut it. Have a ton of switches from my China haul to put back together. Right now I have about 45 SKCM Blues that are fully restored. The blues are ready to put back together its just that summer is over i'm quite busy again. Will pick that up at a later point.

I am in pretty much the same boat. I have about 35 out of my 200 or so blues fully restored. The ones that are finished feel very nice though.

[E3E]

I fixed and cleaned the fake Model M finally. The key feel is terrible as the key caps are too high. It's become very stiff when the press is not directly going downward.

It's surprising that the board is NKRO but the repeat rate will slow down quite a bit. While I use USB adapter, the board will downgrade to 6KRO but the repeat rate will back to normal.

I may try to de-solder the chip and change to Northgate Omnikey's one next week to see the difference.

So some do have NKRO. Seems that there is some variation then. Binding keys, I've learned, are mainly from the switch tops. You'd want to replace them with ones in good condition to truly restore the feel. Cleaning alone won't do it. Lubing with dry lube gets it closer, but I think once they wear down, that binding won't be totally fixable.

It's like that on my DocuTechs vs my 6085 w/ SKCM Green. The 6085, despite all the switches being clean as a whistle, has binding issues when pressed off center. The DocuTechs, despite having grit in the switches, are very smooth and do not have binding. I cleaned out all of the DocuTechs' switches though, but did not lube them.

I hit up the 6085 with molybdenum disulfide powder, and while it works pretty well, it's not 100% the same. Only switching one of the tops with a less worn top gave it that like-new feeling.

I think this is normal wear or some kind of weird degredation. I'm not sure. The 6085 has no shine on the caps and didn't really have much dirt on the plate either. I really don't know what the issue is.