Alps Appreciation Thread

[menuhin]

Show Image

WHAT THE ...???!!!

You're going to destroy all of them today? Although I'm not a full size keyboard person, but I still want to pay my respects to these nice poor vintage.
What's inside the two NeXT?

I'm looking for some cream dampened by the way. I'd rather dismantle a yellowed ADB Apple keyboard if I have choose where to harvest them from.

[alh84001]

:O

[mike52787]

Show Image

WHAT THE ...???!!!

You're going to destroy all of them today? Although I'm not a full size keyboard person, but I still want to pay my respects to these nice poor vintage.
What's inside the two NeXT?

I'm looking for some cream dampened by the way. I'd rather dismantle a yellowed ADB Apple keyboard if I have choose where to harvest them from.

The NeXts have SKCM cream, the best alps switch ever imo

[menuhin]

Could someone please explain the difference(s) between "pine" and "bamboo" Alps switches? I know about the slits and longer tabs in the top switch housing of pine switches, but are there other differences as well?

I have a similar question:
Are the base housing of all Alps SKCL and Alps SKCM switches the same? How about Matias's switches' base housing, are they also compatible / the same in terms of the structure?
Because it may save me some work of doing the tedious hot-swappable PCB mod, if I can effectively just pop and swap the top housing + everything inside.

[menuhin]

Docutech envy . Where did caps form that SGI end up?

sold the caps.  everything here is going to be desoldered today

I actually have some blues on their way to me, do you just want the blues from the Docutech?

Your post will be a strictly forbidden post on DT  with all the Europeans who treasure the heritage and history. Sadly, I don't run a keyboard museum.

[mike52787]

Docutech envy . Where did caps form that SGI end up?

sold the caps.  everything here is going to be desoldered today

I actually have some blues on their way to me, do you just want the blues from the Docutech?

Your post will be a strictly forbidden post on DT  with all the Europeans who treasure the heritage and history. Sadly, I don't run a keyboard museum.

Docutechs dont use SKCM blues, they use SKCM greens. There is no real point to keeping docutechs together, there is no way to convert them, the protocol hasnt been deciphered yet. I dont see the problem with desoldering vintage boards.

[Mattr567]

You're destroying the Docutech too? E3E kinda set up a nature preserve for those where they can roam free lol. What are you going to do with the caps/switches?

The NeXts have SKCM cream, the best alps switch ever imo

They are good indeed. SKCM Blue, SKCM Cream and SKCL Striped Amber are the best 3 Alps switches ever from all the switch types.

[menuhin]

Docutech envy . Where did caps form that SGI end up?

sold the caps.  everything here is going to be desoldered today

I actually have some blues on their way to me, do you just want the blues from the Docutech?

Your post will be a strictly forbidden post on DT  with all the Europeans who treasure the heritage and history. Sadly, I don't run a keyboard museum.

Docutechs dont use SKCM blues, they use SKCM greens. There is no real point to keeping docutechs together, there is no way to convert them, the protocol hasnt been deciphered yet. I dont see the problem with desoldering vintage boards.

The modern Chinese are very similar to the American, doing it even to a much larger scale, scrapping and dismantle everything just for the metal.

I see the problem of Moore's law of computer products, and programmed or planned obsolescence in the computing equipment industries. Obviously the input devices can be reused, only the memory and CPU / GPA and connectivity options need to be upgraded, and the display when significant improvement in technology is there. Computing equipment industries nowadays are not investing so much in the input devices but more to the look, and and many of these older input devices are built to last, not one of those pop bottles or plastic bags.

[alienman82]

removed.

[Hypersphere]

<snip>
<snip>
 ... The only real quirk with the SGI cap set is the stepped caps lock.

And the Italic font!

[mike52787]

<snip>
<snip>
 ... The only real quirk with the SGI cap set is the stepped caps lock.

And the Italic font!

I actually quite like the italic font. Its a subjective thing I think.

[menuhin]

You're destroying the Docutech too? E3E kinda set up a nature preserve for those where they can roam free lol. What are you going to do with the caps/switches?

The NeXts have SKCM cream, the best alps switch ever imo

They are good indeed. SKCM Blue, SKCM Cream and SKCL Striped Amber are the best 3 Alps switches ever from all the switch types.

I wonder if the 'cushion' feel of Striped Amber can be achieved by some spring mod on some other more common linear Alps.
The cushion feel is also what I like about heavier MX linear switches such as lubed Gateron black.

[E3E]

yeah the board is ISO so whatever.  saving the switches for now just desoldering since i have time for once.  also it's missing a foot on the case which is also yellowed and beat

Yeah, if mine's cases were beat up past a certain point or had a broken part, I wouldn't hesitate scrapping them. Fortunately/unfortunately, they don't.

Also, the protocol isn't completely alien. It's been worked out on bitsavers. It's just that a converter hasn't been made for it yet. I'm hoping Wingpad can help with that, and if THAT doesn't work out, then I'll talk to Hasu about a converter.

I'd also include SKCM Green and Brown as top tier tactile switches. It's just that they are more sensitive than others when it comes to plate/case rigidity.

[menuhin]

yeah the board is ISO so whatever.  saving the switches for now just desoldering since i have time for once.  also it's missing a foot on the case which is also yellowed and beat

Yeah, if mine's cases were beat up past a certain point or had a broken part, I wouldn't hesitate scrapping them. Fortunately/unfortunately, they don't.

Also, the protocol isn't completely alien. It's been worked out on bitsavers. It's just that a converter hasn't been made for it yet. I'm hoping Wingpad can help with that, and if THAT doesn't work out, then I'll talk to Hasu about a converter.

I think we need to have some keyboard museums to let these boards roam free.
Perhaps GH in the North America (GH West and GH East) and perhaps one by DT in Europe, perhaps one in south Asia like Malaysia and one in East Asia. There are keyboard and keycap companies (SP, Cherry, GMK, etc), and I won't if they can symbolically rent a room for such purpose, so that it becomes a common asset for forum members, not a private collection.

[Hypersphere]

@mike52787: It's okay to like Italic font on keycaps. It just isn't my cup of tea. However, I am willing to tolerate the font in order to get the benefit of the PBT feel.

@menuhin: Great idea about keyboard museums with support provided by keyboard and keycap companies. There might be foundations and other tech companies that could be approached as well.

Back to the pine/bamboo thing. Today I took a closer look at the switches in my Northgate Omnikey 101 ANSI boards with white Alps switches. One has a noticeably nicer sound and feel than the other and is generally quieter. It turns out that my favorite one has pine switches (with slits in the top switch housings) and the less-favored one has bamboo switches (without slits in the top switch housings). It really does make a difference! Nevertheless, they are each great keyboards -- it is just that the pine version is at a higher level. Indeed, I would say that the pine Northgate is even nicer to type on than my Leading Edge DC-3014 with blue Alps.

[menuhin]

I think the Alps gang can definitely approach Matias for sponsorship.
But a community shared museum with possibility of loaning keyboards to try out would be even better.

[chyros]

Docutech envy . Where did caps form that SGI end up?

sold the caps.  everything here is going to be desoldered today

wat

Back to the pine/bamboo thing. Today I took a closer look at the switches in my Northgate Omnikey 101 ANSI boards with white Alps switches. One has a noticeably nicer sound and feel than the other and is generally quieter. It turns out that my favorite one has pine switches (with slits in the top switch housings) and the less-favored one has bamboo switches (without slits in the top switch housings). It really does make a difference!

Yes, it's really quite significant, isn't it? There's quite a few myths floating around the community, but that one is definitely not one of them. I'm not sure it's actually due to the slits themselves, but at the least they are a good indicator of something else being different.

[alienman82]

removed.

[drevyek]

Could someone please explain the difference(s) between "pine" and "bamboo" Alps switches? I know about the slits and longer tabs in the top switch housing of pine switches, but are there other differences as well?

I have a similar question:
Are the base housing of all Alps SKCL and Alps SKCM switches the same? How about Matias's switches' base housing, are they also compatible / the same in terms of the structure?
Because it may save me some work of doing the tedious hot-swappable PCB mod, if I can effectively just pop and swap the top housing + everything inside.

The bases of SKCM Damped Creams are different. The little blocks on the bottom if the inside of the switch, where the sliders contact when it bottoms out, is a bit widened.

Additionally, all short switchplate switch have little legs for the short switchplate to stand on. Without them, the switchplate would slip down into the switch.

So you have 3 different cases: Damped Creams, Short switchplate, and Long switchplate. As far as I can tell, the top cases only vary based on the pine/bamboo slits.

[menuhin]

Could someone please explain the difference(s) between "pine" and "bamboo" Alps switches? I know about the slits and longer tabs in the top switch housing of pine switches, but are there other differences as well?

I have a similar question:
Are the base housing of all Alps SKCL and Alps SKCM switches the same? How about Matias's switches' base housing, are they also compatible / the same in terms of the structure?
Because it may save me some work of doing the tedious hot-swappable PCB mod, if I can effectively just pop and swap the top housing + everything inside.

The bases of SKCM Damped Creams are different. The little blocks on the bottom if the inside of the switch, where the sliders contact when it bottoms out, is a bit widened.

Additionally, all short switchplate switch have little legs for the short switchplate to stand on. Without them, the switchplate would slip down into the switch.

So you have 3 different cases: Damped Creams, Short switchplate, and Long switchplate. As far as I can tell, the top cases only vary based on the pine/bamboo slits.

Are base cases of cream dampened and white dampened the same?

What's "simplified" in the later Alps designs then? Mainly without the slits?

[Hypersphere]

Just now checked my non-ADB NeXT board with undamped creams. Looks like it has the pine (with slits) top switch case -- another reason why I rather like this board.

The NeXT form factor is very much to my liking and the layout lends itself to a HHKB remapping. The only slight drawback is the case material, which is something of a smudge and fingerprint display.

I would also like to give the NeXT board a detachable cable. I am not sure if the case will accommodate putting the present design of the Hasu converter inside, but the internal wiring could bypass the connector and go directly to the converter board.

[mike52787]

Just now checked my non-ADB NeXT board with undamped creams. Looks like it has the pine (with slits) top switch case -- another reason why I rather like this board.

The NeXT form factor is very much to my liking and the layout lends itself to a HHKB remapping. The only slight drawback is the case material, which is something of a smudge and fingerprint display.

I would also like to give the NeXT board a detachable cable. I am not sure if the case will accommodate putting the present design of the Hasu converter inside, but the internal wiring could bypass the connector and go directly to the converter board.

All SKCM Cream switches will have pine switch tops as they are a first gen switch. They were phased out by SKCM blacks before the changeover, hence the presence of Pine blacks in the NeXt boards.

[mike52787]

Could someone please explain the difference(s) between "pine" and "bamboo" Alps switches? I know about the slits and longer tabs in the top switch housing of pine switches, but are there other differences as well?

I have a similar question:
Are the base housing of all Alps SKCL and Alps SKCM switches the same? How about Matias's switches' base housing, are they also compatible / the same in terms of the structure?
Because it may save me some work of doing the tedious hot-swappable PCB mod, if I can effectively just pop and swap the top housing + everything inside.

The bases of SKCM Damped Creams are different. The little blocks on the bottom if the inside of the switch, where the sliders contact when it bottoms out, is a bit widened.

Additionally, all short switchplate switch have little legs for the short switchplate to stand on. Without them, the switchplate would slip down into the switch.

So you have 3 different cases: Damped Creams, Short switchplate, and Long switchplate. As far as I can tell, the top cases only vary based on the pine/bamboo slits.

Are base cases of cream dampened and white dampened the same?

What's "simplified" in the later Alps designs then? Mainly without the slits?

In the case of cream dampened and white dampened the switch bottom housings should be the same. As for simplified alps switches, The switchplates are different. Instead of the normal one piece switchplate we all know and love, the simplified switches have 2 cheap copper contacts. Matias uses the simplified design, hat is why it is not as good as OG alps. Simplified bottom and top housings are differed due to the change in switchplate design.

[Hypersphere]

Thanks for the explanation. When I first dived into the Alps pool, I had no idea that the waters ran so deep. The evolution of Alps is intricate and fascinating.

"SKCM Cream" seems to cry out for a contraction of the name to SKCream or simply Scream. Ironic, given that they are neither loud nor inherently fast. I'll have to check my typing speed on Screams vs. other switches ....

[mike52787]

Thanks for the explanation. When I first dived into the Alps pool, I had no idea that the waters ran so deep. The evolution of Alps is intricate and fascinating.

"SKCM Cream" seems to cry out for a contraction of the name to SKCream or simply Scream. Ironic, given that they are neither loud nor inherently fast. I'll have to check my typing speed on Screams vs. other switches ....

I dont particularly like the name SKCM cream, as when I am trying to Hype Promote my favorite alps switch, People think I am talking about dampened creams. Scream sounds good

[Hypersphere]

Scream it is!

...and what about damped creams? Dreams perhaps? or maybe just muffled screams.

[mike52787]

Scream it is!

That's really a great name

[digi]

Added some sweet Yellow Alpsies in the classy's!

[alienman82]

removed.

[fohat.digs]

every pin is bent

Sucks big time.

I have had at least 2 Dell AT101Ws and a Northgate 101 like that.

Half a dozen is plenty, at most! (4 corners + 2 central)

[Mattr567]

the alps gods must be trying to talk.  every pin is bent on the docutech.  gonna be good tims desoldering it.

They're are sending a message, dont desolder, dont desolder!

I hate bent pins. My way is to use a solder sucker first to remove most of the solder, then use some braided copper to try to remove as much solder as possible from the sides of the pin. Then heat the pin from one side with the iron and bend it up with a small flathead screwdriver on the otherside.

[alienman82]

removed.

[Mattr567]

Bought 61 SKCM Amber's from Digi. Gonna make a Amber/Blue Alps Focus FK-3001 masterpiece!

The alpha's will be Amber while the rest will be Blue's. This makes the Focus unique since before I had no reason to use it since I have my SKCM Blue Packard. Great use for it

[digi]

Bought 61 SKCM Amber's from Digi. Gonna make a Amber/Blue Alps Focus FK-3001 masterpiece!

The alpha's will be Amber while the rest will be Blue's. This makes the Focus unique since before I had no reason to use it since I have my SKCM Blue Packard. Great use for it

Wow, that sounds amazing....on 2nd thought...not sure I'm ready to let these go (j/k)

[mike52787]

Bought 61 SKCM Amber's from Digi. Gonna make a Amber/Blue Alps Focus FK-3001 masterpiece!

The alpha's will be Amber while the rest will be Blue's. This makes the Focus unique since before I had no reason to use it since I have my SKCM Blue Packard. Great use for it

Sounds like a cool board!

[alienman82]

removed.

[Mattr567]

Sounds like a cool board!

Thanks, it will be. I know E3E doesn't like Amber's but in the Focus I think they will be great switch. Blue's are good choice to complement it also.

for a second i thought you meant digikey   

Lol you thought I bought some NOS Amber's? Lol.

[E3E]

Dressed my Mira up with a mix and match of a few sets today. All this after a lot of hard work cutting some 60% plates out of AEK plates for someone in trade for the the One Per Desk caps you see on this board.

Well-earned I think, haha. Brutal.

[Mattr567]

I see that mix of Taihao and NeXT in there

Great looking board. Matches well.

[E3E]

I see that mix of Taihao and NeXT in there

Great looking board. Matches well.

Haha, you got it! It was a bit tricky to figure what would match the One Per Desk caps well, since they have no real usable mods. Black blends in perfectly with the dark brown mods. I really like it.

I was originally planning to use the C. Itoh PBT sphericals for the Mira, but I think the Retro look of these caps fit it too well.





I only have these spares from XMIT at the moment as I'm waiting for my full board to come in, but I think they look really really good on a black board, so I might ultimately put them on my Orion. Not sure though. Really, those low profile chinese caps are the best fit, especially ergonomically.

I don't know if these PBT caps will go better on the Mira, but they definitely aren't as colorful.

[Mattr567]

SKCM Orange Apple IIC?!!!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/122225618304

[Mattr567]

Also found this newish reddit thread (22 days old). Guess they did have more NOS SKCM Green Chyros, but this guy paid $8 per switch (59*8=$472) Saw your comment's in that thread btw E3E. That dude is absolutely insane. That's tops those sky high prices of SKCM Blue boards from a couple months ago by plenty! Wayy off the deep end.

https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/59xkg6/the_whole_industry_in_shambles_cause_i_paid_8/

[E3E]

SKCM Orange Apple IIC?!!!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/122225618304

A2S4500 isn't a model number I'm familiar with when it comes to SKCM Amber, so I can believe it. Probably a later model.

I have seen people mention having SKCM Oranges in their IIcs, but with how casually of a manner in which they described it, I just assumed they mistook SKCM Ambers for SKCM Orange.

[E3E]

Also found this newish reddit thread (22 days old). Guess they did have more NOS SKCM Green Chyros, but this guy paid $8 per switch (59*8=$472) Saw your comment's in that thread btw E3E. That dude is absolutely insane. That's tops those sky high prices of SKCM Blue boards from a couple months ago by plenty! Wayy off the deep end.

https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/59xkg6/the_whole_industry_in_shambles_cause_i_paid_8/

I need to look out for DocuTech poachers at that price point, hahaha.

[MandrewDavis]

SKCM Orange Apple IIC?!!!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/122225618304

Info on the IIC from DT,

Apple Hairpin Spring switches were used from April 1984 to August 1986 (in //cs with model number A2S4000, ROM revisions 255 and 0 (although newer ROMs can go in those)).

Alps SKCM taxi yellow switches were used from September 1986 to August 1988 (in //cs with model number A2S4100, ROM revisions 3 and 4).

Alps SKCM orange switches were used from (on the IIc line anyway, Apple certainly used them elsewhere, dating as far back to the IIGS in September 1986) September 1988 to September 1990, on the IIc Plus, model A2S4500, ROM revision 5.

Sources: http://apple2history.org/history/ah08/ and http://apple2history.org/history/ah09/ although the comments on keyswitches are from memory. (The switch to the Alps keyboard was required by the Memory Expansion system, which needed a plate mount switch to get the keyboard rigidity without compromising on clearance to the motherboard.)

Apple seemed to have used oranges on the later models.

[Mattr567]

Interesting. Never knew Oranges could come with them. Just the very late ones then. So SKCM Amber, Orange, and Blue could come with the IIC since there was that one replacement keyboard that had them. Blue's are probably a fluke though since it was a replacement board and Alps likely ran out of Amber's for that batch.

[MandrewDavis]

Interesting. Never knew Oranges could come with them. Just the very late ones then. So SKCM Amber, Orange, and Blue could come with the IIC since there was that one replacement keyboard that had them. Blue's are probably a fluke though since it was a replacement board and Alps likely ran out of Amber's for that batch.

I have seen a few A2S4000s with Amber alps, but didn't know any came with blues considering Apple never used them anywhere else in their lineup.

[alienman82]

removed.

[Mattr567]

Interesting. Never knew Oranges could come with them. Just the very late ones then. So SKCM Amber, Orange, and Blue could come with the IIC since there was that one replacement keyboard that had them. Blue's are probably a fluke though since it was a replacement board and Alps likely ran out of Amber's for that batch.

I have seen a few A2S4000s with Amber alps, but didn't know any came with blues considering Apple never used them anywhere else in their lineup.

Here you go: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=71488.0

Those also have top logos like the Packard Bell T9's do, so it makes sense that there late in the production run.

[E3E]

The "heathen" blues with their tramp stamps!