Scoops vs. Bars vs. Nipples Discussion Thread

[livingspeedbump]

I like bars, bars+scoops is even better. I haven't tried Deep Dish SA yet, but Deep Dish DSA I don't like.

deep dish DSA can barely call itself deep dish. totally agree.

[rowdy]

And just quickly going through and counting:

Scoops: 23
Bars: 14

and for fun:

avg post count (removing one outlier on each end)
scoops: 2911
bars: 1686

You removed me, didn't you?

I voted for bars.

You did nearly double the average

)

[jerue]

I like bars, bars+scoops is even better. I haven't tried Deep Dish SA yet, but Deep Dish DSA I don't like.

deep dish DSA can barely call itself deep dish. totally agree.

I really like the scoops on my Granite set. So maybe that should be the standard with an even deeper dish for scoops? It can only get better...

[Oobly]

Just to throw another spanner in the works, cost can actually be a factor. Scoops require a different mold to be designed and made (dent = raised portion in mold, requires either adding material and then shaping it which is difficult or making a new mold), whereas bars and nipples require only a small modification to an existing mold / design (bump = remove small amount of material from mold = easy).

I have used GMK scoops, SA scoops, Gateron scoops with bars, GMK bars, DCS bars, SA "nipples", IBM Model M "nothings", IBM Model M bars and rubber dome bars.

Bars >> Scoops >> Nipples / Nothing

Nipples press in the highest force area of the keycap and the most sensitive area of the finger and that causes me pain, or at least mild discomfort.
My fingers have difficulty "recognising" scooped keys as home keys when typing fast, unless they also have bars.
Bars rest under the main pressure area of the keycap and I find them the easiest to feel and recognise without causing discomfort.

That's my subjective and opinionated "keyboard science" on the subject. I do love my SA scoops, though, despite all this. They just feel so nice to rest my fingers on / caress.

[Johan]

Bumps/bars imo, Scoops feel weird and look off on GMK. I guess they do their job regardless.

[Firebolt1914]

I recently got some Cherry POM blanks, and they have an even more pronounced scoop than regular Cherry scoops.

They're amazing.

[Karura]

Just to throw another spanner in the works, cost can actually be a factor. Scoops require a different mold to be designed and made (dent = raised portion in mold, requires either adding material and then shaping it which is difficult or making a new mold), whereas bars and nipples require only a small modification to an existing mold / design (bump = remove small amount of material from mold = easy).

Edit: I reread your argument and agree with you, but I still don't see how cost is relevant to the preference of using scoops or bars.

The whole cost issue is pretty much irrelevant and I'm not sure why it keeps getting brought up.

Speaking of POM scoops, I also got a set and they are spectacular. They're a tiny bit deeper than the ABS DS ones and just grip your fingers so perfectly in the recess!

[KHAANNN]

I recently got IMSTO dye-subbed Vortex keycaps, although the quality of the keycaps is questionable (IMSTO dye-subs rule tho) - I'm in love with the bars (Vortex keycaps are thick, yet probably their tops are not thick enough, so the stem holder is barely visible)

The bumps: They are so small, yet they are there, if you want them they are there, if you don't like them they are pretty bearable (very bearable, almost enjoyable)

Comparatively, GMK bars are like knifes poking your fingers (my fingers were pretty mashed before testing, so that affected the result too)

I decided to get flat F/J's for my custom GMK Dolch order after this experience, I think I might pint F/J's with a heated knife just a little to emulate the Vortex bars at one point, If I seek the bars (I probably won't)

Still, a voice inside me tells me to get bumped F/J's from GMK, as sanding down the bump is also a good option, I can't decide
(Comparatively, scoops are still ****, I would rather get some BSP dye-subbed alphas and sand-down the nipples)

[Oobly]

... I still don't see how cost is relevant to the preference of using scoops or bars.
...

It doesn't affect the preference directly, but it does affect the proliferation / availability of scoops vs bumps and people often have a preference for what they're already used to. Most boards out there use bumps and cost could have been a factor in choosing them, just as much as historical precedent set by IBM.

I don't particularly care about either of these factors and have tried the various types as objectively as I can and given clear reasons for my preferences as I hope others are doing who contribute to this thread.

I have something to add: I actually like having the nipple type of dot on the number row, 4 and 7 like with the 1976 set (I think that's still unique). Makes "blind" number entry on a 60% better. But on F and J it's a bit too prominent and starts to irritate after a while, so still bars on F and J for me. They strike the right balance between subtle and obnoxious.

[Giorgio]

It is obvious that when I talk about my preference for bars, that includes the 5 on the numpad.

It is frankly horrifying to have different homing systems in the same set. I'm talking for example about scoops on fj and a nipple on the numpad.

[Polymer]

Edit: I reread your argument and agree with you, but I still don't see how cost is relevant to the preference of using scoops or bars.

It isn't...you just read the whole thing the way you wanted to.

I haven't implied cost is a factor for any of it..you read my comment and my re-clarified comment that way.

The original comment I made was simply in reference to the fact that bars are on most keyboards and there is a reason for that...
It could be, as Oobly suggested, might actually have had to do with cost factors.
Or it could be, as you suggested, purely historical.  (I don't think cost was a factor in bars being the more popular choice by manufacturers).
But for whatever reason, bars ARE on most keyboards.

It has NOTHING to do with preferences.

[tigersharkdude]

nipples > all

oh wait, I think im in the wrong thread

[pr0ximity]

The Gateron scooped caps with bars are fracking amazing on Ivan's black-on-black set. Really nothing else compares. I wish my GMK scoops had bars 

[BrewCaps]

I like hanging around bars.

[romevi]

I like hanging around bars.

I like hanging around nipples.

[njbair]

I like hanging around bars.

I like hanging around nipples.

I like hanging around scoops.

[Findecanor]

Just to throw another spanner in the works, cost can actually be a factor. Scoops require a different mold to be designed and made (dent = raised portion in mold, requires either adding material and then shaping it which is difficult or making a new mold), whereas bars and nipples require only a small modification to an existing mold / design (bump = remove small amount of material from mold = easy).

Keycaps are usually cast for at least one keyboard in each shot.

[Giorgio]

Scoops are made for feminine fingers.
They feel unnaturally small and uncomfortable, when compared to the ergonomically correct shape of the other gmk keycaps.

[clacktalk]

Scoops are made for feminine fingers.
They feel unnaturally small and uncomfortable, when compared to the ergonomically correct shape of the other gmk keycaps.

**** off

[hwood34]

Scoops are made for feminine fingers.
They feel unnaturally small and uncomfortable, when compared to the ergonomically correct shape of the other gmk keycaps.

lets see those manly hands then

[neverused]

Nipples, then bars. Scoops feel like retarded regular caps.

[Melvang]

Just to throw another spanner in the works, cost can actually be a factor. Scoops require a different mold to be designed and made (dent = raised portion in mold, requires either adding material and then shaping it which is difficult or making a new mold), whereas bars and nipples require only a small modification to an existing mold / design (bump = remove small amount of material from mold = easy).

Scoops would also require a different mold for the legend as well for double shots.

[Karura]

Ban Giorgio.

[tbc]

Ban Giorgio.

beat him with two scoops of raisins

[Findecanor]

I have been computing at home since 1989 and never used any indicator for the home row. The only indicator I use is the gap to the left of A that I feel with my pinky. Other than that I rely on proprioception.

A few years ago when I had acquired a few Cherry keyboards and started using them extensively, I didn't notice that a couple keys were scooped. It was first after I had read about it on Geekhack that I looked down and saw it.

But to repeat myself: Scoops, Bars or Nipples: Neither. There should be like a bar, but it should be broken into two dots.

[KHAANNN]

Interesting, I noticed my homing keys are the 2 fn keys near the spacebar, my thumbs find those 2 keys when I'm resting, that's how I seem to mostly determine the places of the keys now
I've been using DSA blanks for those keys+spacebar, I hope I'm not too used to them, I intend to go back to Cherry profile's (going to sand them too, otherwise Cherry R4 is pretty piercing for a thumb, I've been sanding a lot of stuff lately)

With Vortex PBT's, I also enjoy the very tiny bars, especially while CMD+F'ing stuff, so I abandoned the flat F/J usage idea of mine

Here is my sanding experiment with nipples and GMK bars, I've decided to use sanded GMK bars from now on:



(Sanded the nipple as I was considering BSP alphas to use while I wait 8 weeks for my GMK F/J's, yet it makes more sense to just abandon the BSP's and concentrate on GMK's)
(In this photo, the cyan F and the nippled 5 is sanded, the J is the default bar'ed one for comparison, the dye-sub one is a Vortex PBT, again in the default form)
(After this photo, I sanded the cyan F more, it's even better than the Vortex one now, as the bar is a bit wider)

[Karura]

Interesting, I noticed my homing keys are the 2 fn keys near the spacebar, my thumbs find those 2 keys when I'm resting, that's how I seem to mostly determine the places of the keys now
I've been using DSA blanks for those keys+spacebar, I hope I'm not too used to them, I intend to go back to Cherry profile's (going to sand them too, otherwise Cherry R4 is pretty piercing for a thumb, I've been sanding a lot of stuff lately)

With Vortex PBT's, I also enjoy the very tiny bars, especially while CMD+F'ing stuff, so I abandoned the flat F/J usage idea of mine

Here is my sanding experiment with nipples and GMK bars, I've decided to use sanded GMK bars from now on:

(Attachment Link)

(Sanded the nipple as I was considering BSP alphas to use while I wait 8 weeks for my GMK F/J's, yet it makes more sense to just abandon the BSP's and concentrate on GMK's)
(In this photo, the cyan F and the nippled 5 is sanded, the J is the default bar'ed one for comparison, the dye-sub one is a Vortex PBT, again in the default form)
(After this photo, I sanded the cyan F more, it's even better than the Vortex one now, as the bar is a bit wider)

Nice!

You didn't sand them enough; they still don't look like scoops to me.

[LechnerDE]

You didn't sand them enough; they still don't look like scoops to me.

ahahahahaha

 

[romevi]

So, with the heat in Skidata+, I thought I'd post here.

Maybe there should be a GB for barred and nipped F & J caps for all the GMK caps which came with only scoops. Dunno how practical it is, but I'm sure some people would appreciate it.

[KnivesM]

So, with the heat in Skidata+, I thought I'd post here.

Maybe there should be a GB for barred and nipped F & J caps for all the GMK caps which came with only scoops. Dunno how practical it is, but I'm sure some people would appreciate it.

If it's done it should be done as only one larger set making sure if it meets MOQ everyone will be happy.

[ideus]

Nipple and scoop are metaphoric; thus, they take typing experience to "another" level. Bars, in the other hand, would be the homo side of the metaphor.  ) Sanded ones, well, they represent a tranny deviation of it.

[KHAANNN]

http://www.googlefight.com/scoops-vs-bars.php

[ideus]

Scoop the nipple with a bar. 

[Oobly]

http://www.googlefight.com/scoops-vs-bars.php

and http://www.googlefight.com/abs-vs-pbt.php

and http://www.googlefight.com/costar-vs-cherry.php

and http://www.googlefight.com/sa-vs-dcs.php

and http://www.googlefight.com/dsa-vs-sa.php



Google agrees with me!

Actually this matches my view more closely: http://www.googlefight.com/scoops-vs-both.php

And a rather more interesting one: http://www.googlefight.com/signature+plastics-vs-gmk.php

[Giorgio]

http://www.googlefight.com/keycaps+scoops-vs-keycaps+bars.php

[Polymer]

http://www.googlefight.com/keycaps+scoops-vs-keycaps+bars.php

WINNER!

[ideus]

Scoops are for the fingers what a well designed turn in a highway is for a car; while, bars and nipples are like bumps, you should stop, or damage your suspension.

[hwood34]

Scoops are for the fingers what a well designed turn in a highway is for a car; while, bars and nipples are like bumps, you should stop, or damage your suspension.

I like this

[Polymer]

Scoops are for the fingers what a well designed turn in a highway is for a car; while, bars and nipples are like bumps, you should stop, or damage your suspension.

I think pothole vs. raised markers (Buttons, Botts dots, turtles,etc) is more accurate...

[Oobly]

[Oobly]

This is a taste thing. Some prefer scoops, some prefer bumps. Is it such a terrible thing to include both?

[Polymer]

This is a taste thing. Some prefer scoops, some prefer bumps. Is it such a terrible thing to include both?

That's exactly what I'm saying..

[ika]

This is a taste thing. Some prefer scoops, some prefer bumps. Is it such a terrible thing to include both?

I've only ever seen buys with only scoops where people complain vehemently about the people who want bars, it's never the other way around - but is that because bars are usually the default? I really don't understand why this is such a big deal here. I'd be willing to pay a few bucks to get bars added, and I'm sure a lot of other people would too.

Personally without bars, I can't use a keyset, since I take my right hand off the keyboard all the time and I need the bar to orient my hand with a quick sweep over the keys. Scoops take me a second longer (or I just get a few typoed words) but if I lose a second every time I have to do this, I'm losing 10+ seconds a day, which is an hour a year wasted.

[Polymer]

The response is always..do you want to shell out the 500 euro to have them made...

I'm fine with that...they can include it in the GB and as long as there is a MOQ of say, 50 and those people would need to pay 10 Euro for basically 10 keys (5 sets of FJ bars each), that's fine.  And if there are more than that, that's fine too.  And in reality, if you get more than that, you're already looking at a large percentage that want it and will use it...which will exceed any of the oddball layouts that get included.

People just need to be a bit more vocal about it.. 

[romevi]

I just noticed that Ivan had bars as an option in his Dolch (and possibly others).
Is there another reason besides preference that designers exclude them? Is cost really that high that they don't think people will buy them?

There are obviously enough people who prefer bars, me being one of them. Our whole touch-typing experience relies on them. Having scoops only and saying that people need to deal with learning those or that they weren't in the original inspiration doesn't seem right. There are keys in new sets which weren't in the originals, and forcing people to use scoops seems exclusive.

I'm not that bothered and will use scoops to try something different, but there are people who strongly prefer bars and won't get sets without them as a result.
There's a strong enough vocal group who prefer bars and nips to warrant their inclusion, I think.

[ika]

Is Gateron the only company that does the subtle scoop+bar combination? I really like that implementation, and bar haters can always sand it down IMO.

[ideus]

Is Gateron the only company that does the subtle scoop+bar combination? I really like that implementation, and bar haters can always sand it down IMO.

Have a picture? I was not aware of such combination, it sounds great.

[jerue]

Just got my first SA set, which has nips.

Can confirm I do not like nips at all. I don't mind them on Modern Selectric as it has a bit of a "retro" feel to it...I guess retro meaning people enjoyed the sharpness of homing keys 

[absyrd]

Bars.

I like bars so much, I want them on every key.

[KHAANNN]

Just got my first SA set, which has nips.

Can confirm I do not like nips at all. I don't mind them on Modern Selectric as it has a bit of a "retro" feel to it...I guess retro meaning people enjoyed the sharpness of homing keys 

I always enjoyed the flat keycaps of SP - which most sets have as alternatives - Eve had scoops-only, DSA scoops were more tolerable then GMK scoops

You could try the flat keycaps of your set, maybe carve a bump into the flat keycap if it doesn't work flat