Author Topic: Double Shot ABS Vs. Dyesub PBT.  (Read 11069 times)

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Offline typo

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Double Shot ABS Vs. Dyesub PBT.
« on: Tue, 01 August 2017, 05:30:39 »
I am talking about high quality caps. It seems DS PBT is only on lower quality boards. I was wondering which people prefer. DS ABS or single molded PBT w/ Dyesub Legends? Unless Vortex is okay? They make DS PBT. Is there high quality DS PBT/POM? Thanks

Offline SpAmRaY

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Re: Double Shot ABS Vs. Dyesub PBT.
« Reply #1 on: Tue, 01 August 2017, 05:35:53 »
Leopold recently announced they are releasing boards with doubleshot pbt but I don't think anyone has tried them yet.

Also what is high quality for one person might not be the same for others.

For some it's all about a profile or thickness, others the quality of the legends and some will only use caps with a certain surface finish.

The other thing to consider is cap size availability since many people use boards that require non-standard sized caps.

Then of course you get into custom sets with multi colors etc and that opens up an entire other discussion.

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« Last Edit: Tue, 01 August 2017, 05:38:19 by SpAmRaY »

Offline ideus

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Re: Double Shot ABS Vs. Dyesub PBT.
« Reply #2 on: Tue, 01 August 2017, 06:05:47 »
I think that spamray has nailed it well, there is no a consistent definition of what would be considered a quality key cap set universally. Personally I really do not like the PBT dry surface and I prefer ABS, but the key caps should be thick, so the best key caps for me are OG Cherry or GMK; however, I have not tried ePBT or IMSTO thick PBT key caps yet, that I have heard good things about, they have Cherry profile that is the profile I like, but the sets do not have all the keys that I need.

Offline Niomosy

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Re: Double Shot ABS Vs. Dyesub PBT.
« Reply #3 on: Tue, 01 August 2017, 16:17:34 »
I tend to like the feel of PBT but am not normally one for dyesub for now, preferring lighter legends in many cases.  Thick ABS works well in place of that.

Offline zslane

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Re: Double Shot ABS Vs. Dyesub PBT.
« Reply #4 on: Tue, 01 August 2017, 16:37:54 »
As I understand it, the molecular structure of ABS does not support the dye-sublimation process, so "dyesub ABS" is a unicorn. The problem with two-shotting PBT is that the molecular structure of PBT makes it shrink very quickly during any molding process, and so getting a legend shot that isn't misshapen after being fused with the shell is extremely challenging. The yield of acceptable keycaps is much smaller than with ABS, making them either very expensive or of inconsistent quality, depending on how rigorous the company applies it QC policies.

Offline typo

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Re: Double Shot ABS Vs. Dyesub PBT.
« Reply #5 on: Wed, 02 August 2017, 02:53:40 »
Thanks everyone. I guess it just depends on what any given individual prefers. No right or wrong. Of course we could probably all agree the caps on a $5 Rubberdome are not very nice. Than again I am sure someone,somewhere likes them best.

Offline ideus

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Re: Double Shot ABS Vs. Dyesub PBT.
« Reply #6 on: Thu, 03 August 2017, 17:29:00 »
Thanks everyone. I guess it just depends on what any given individual prefers. No right or wrong. Of course we could probably all agree the caps on a $5 Rubberdome are not very nice. Than again I am sure someone,somewhere likes them best.

I had to type on a rubber-dome just yesterday, I recalled why I do not like it, the mushiness feeling and lack of a clear register, the appearance of the keycaps, it is all just very uncomfortable and unprofessional.

Offline teraflame

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Re: Double Shot ABS Vs. Dyesub PBT.
« Reply #7 on: Fri, 04 August 2017, 11:08:23 »
ABS is absolute crap, the feel of worn abs is disgusting. PBT is much better, still wears but doesn't get as slick.
Rubber in domes

Offline zslane

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Re: Double Shot ABS Vs. Dyesub PBT.
« Reply #8 on: Fri, 04 August 2017, 11:59:40 »
I guess it's a matter of one's formative keyboard experiences. Most folks here probably never used a computer that pre-dated the IBM PC/XT, and aren't old enough to have used computers at a time when tall, glossy smooth spherical ABS keycaps were the norm. That was back when engineering a good keyboard wasn't a niche hobby exercise, but a standard commercial practice. The appearance of PBT was not necessarily a boon to the industry, given that it traded beautiful double-shot legends for cheap dye-sub substitutes. But I guess you can't appreciate that which you never really used for that long (if ever).

Offline Niomosy

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Re: Double Shot ABS Vs. Dyesub PBT.
« Reply #9 on: Fri, 04 August 2017, 13:18:05 »
Thanks everyone. I guess it just depends on what any given individual prefers. No right or wrong. Of course we could probably all agree the caps on a $5 Rubberdome are not very nice. Than again I am sure someone,somewhere likes them best.

I had to type on a rubber-dome just yesterday, I recalled why I do not like it, the mushiness feeling and lack of a clear register, the appearance of the keycaps, it is all just very uncomfortable and unprofessional.

I type on an HP rubber dome at work daily.  It doesn't really bother me though I prefer my MX reds board at home.

Offline raxander

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Re: Double Shot ABS Vs. Dyesub PBT.
« Reply #10 on: Mon, 07 August 2017, 20:41:06 »
I really expected to like thick dyesub PBT better than ABS, but my favorite keyset right now is SA Max Ashen. They have a wonderful buttery feel which sounds like it would be gross but is really nice to type on. And I love the sound - I think it's the combination of the huge volume under the key and the thick material, it has kind of a deep thocky sound.  Umm, what was the question?  Sorry got carried away there.  I guess my point is there's no way to predict what you're going to like until you try it.  Good thing there's a brisk secondary market.

Offline typo

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Re: Double Shot ABS Vs. Dyesub PBT.
« Reply #11 on: Thu, 10 August 2017, 02:29:14 »
When I was in my late teens a computing device had not yet been invented. In the late 50's through the 70's It went from the Teletype boards to-Cherry style boards. The Teletype or Punch card boards were more solid. The Cherry was more ergonomic but not as solid feeling. Strangely those tall spherical shiny caps felt wonderful to me. ABS today, even on a good DS keyset is not nearly as thick AFAIK. If you like Topre Thonk those boards of yore felt 10x as good IMO. If they made a 104+ board out of that now I would pay a fortune for it. Until then I use a flat board with all the rows exactly the same and super heavy switches. Still, even though the caps are probably the best mass produced caps(IMO) they are not nearly as heavy as those Teletype boards. It does not make sense to dram about it because as of now it does not exist. I am sure someone has a Teletype board working on a PC/Mac but it is obviously crippled in it's capability to properly utilize the operating system. So there is no winner today. I guess it just depends on your preference. Most people hate my TG3 caps. To me it is well....My preference. I wanted the RealForce RGB but now I hear the whole package just is not very good. There are true DS PBT caps but they are a rarity in an already niche market.

Offline LifeIsOnTheWire

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Re: Double Shot ABS Vs. Dyesub PBT.
« Reply #12 on: Tue, 15 August 2017, 10:19:42 »
My first few keysets were doubleshot ABS, and I've started to dislike ABS keycaps. 

I really like the gritty surface that most keycaps come with.  With ABS, that texture is lost within a few months.  (my Tai Hao set was getting glossy in 3 months).

From now on I am only buying PBT Dye Sub.  I know that I will never get certain colour combinations with PBT Dye Sub, but I don't care.  I love the feeling of PBT, and I love the longevity.

Offline rowdy

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Re: Double Shot ABS Vs. Dyesub PBT.
« Reply #13 on: Tue, 15 August 2017, 21:52:02 »
My first few keysets were doubleshot ABS, and I've started to dislike ABS keycaps. 

I really like the gritty surface that most keycaps come with.  With ABS, that texture is lost within a few months.  (my Tai Hao set was getting glossy in 3 months).

From now on I am only buying PBT Dye Sub.  I know that I will never get certain colour combinations with PBT Dye Sub, but I don't care.  I love the feeling of PBT, and I love the longevity.

I worked around this by having lots of (ABS) sets.  Most of mine have not shined, except my Filco yellow set.  They do get changed out quite often though.

And now I have ended up switching between SSK and HHKB, both of which have PBT keycaps anyway.
"Because keyboards are accessories to PC makers, they focus on minimizing the manufacturing costs. But that’s incorrect. It’s in HHKB’s slogan, but when America’s cowboys were in the middle of a trip and their horse died, they would leave the horse there. But even if they were in the middle of a desert, they would take their saddle with them. The horse was a consumable good, but the saddle was an interface that their bodies had gotten used to. In the same vein, PCs are consumable goods, while keyboards are important interfaces." - Eiiti Wada

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Offline zslane

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Re: Double Shot ABS Vs. Dyesub PBT.
« Reply #14 on: Wed, 16 August 2017, 12:14:09 »
I don't know what folks have against glossy keycaps. Some keycap sets look great that way. For instance, I feel that SA Dasher will look its best after the keys turn really glossy.

Offline giangpn

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Re: Double Shot ABS Vs. Dyesub PBT.
« Reply #15 on: Wed, 16 August 2017, 13:31:55 »
Thanks everyone. I guess it just depends on what any given individual prefers. No right or wrong. Of course we could probably all agree the caps on a $5 Rubberdome are not very nice. Than again I am sure someone,somewhere likes them best.

I had to type on a rubber-dome just yesterday, I recalled why I do not like it, the mushiness feeling and lack of a clear register, the appearance of the keycaps, it is all just very uncomfortable and unprofessional.

I type on an HP rubber dome at work daily.  It doesn't really bother me though I prefer my MX reds board at home.

I got a Dell rubber dome at work and it annoy me terribly, so I bring my Tada68. Going to work feels a lot better now
I see dead people.

Offline LifeIsOnTheWire

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Re: Double Shot ABS Vs. Dyesub PBT.
« Reply #16 on: Wed, 16 August 2017, 14:46:51 »
I don't know what folks have against glossy keycaps. Some keycap sets look great that way. For instance, I feel that SA Dasher will look its best after the keys turn really glossy.

I agree that some sets look great glossy, but when they are made textured, and they turn glossy it looks inconsistent.  Most of my ABS sets had glossy alpha keys, and a glossy spot on the right side of the spacebar.  Makes it look cheap.

Offline zslane

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Re: Double Shot ABS Vs. Dyesub PBT.
« Reply #17 on: Wed, 16 August 2017, 16:34:25 »
Well, glossiness ought to simply make them look used. The association with "cheap" keyboards is an unfortunate one, but ultimately it is a false correlation (i.e., all cheap keycaps may turn glossy over time, but not all glossy keycaps are cheap or from cheap keyboards). You just need to recalibrate your mental mappings.

Offline ideus

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Re: Double Shot ABS Vs. Dyesub PBT.
« Reply #18 on: Wed, 16 August 2017, 18:05:32 »
Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder, the phrase cannot be applied any better to the many expressions on plastics preferences for keycaps that have been shared here and in many other threads related to this topic; which, by the way, is one of the most discussed one; however, facts are beyond feeling and personal preferences, first, not all ABS key caps are made equal and, in particular, thick key caps made with double shot molding process tend to provide a great tactility and long lasting legends; second, PBT and ABS are different polymer compounds that provide different mechanical properties to the parts made of each one, no one is intrinsically better than the other, both are thermoplastics, ABS is amorphous and PBT is semi crystalline and it provides double the tensile strength resistance than ABS, but this is five times resistant to impacts (Izod Impact) and cracking than PBT. Being the other mechanical properties similar, it is clear that PBT is more fragile and hard than ABS which is more flexible and resistant to impacts, which are the main actual differences that may be perceived with the finger tips while typing, PBT feels dryer and will tend to keep its texture longer, while ABS feels softer and tend to loss its texture with less usage.

Offline zslane

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Re: Double Shot ABS Vs. Dyesub PBT.
« Reply #19 on: Wed, 16 August 2017, 19:37:11 »
Beauty is indeed in the eyes of the beholder.

But thinking that "glossy means cheap" (and therefore "bad") isn't a problem of plastic, but of perspective.

Offline rowdy

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Re: Double Shot ABS Vs. Dyesub PBT.
« Reply #20 on: Wed, 16 August 2017, 21:46:56 »
I don't know what folks have against glossy keycaps. Some keycap sets look great that way. For instance, I feel that SA Dasher will look its best after the keys turn really glossy.

SA sets are all glossy, aren't they?

They always look nice.
"Because keyboards are accessories to PC makers, they focus on minimizing the manufacturing costs. But that’s incorrect. It’s in HHKB’s slogan, but when America’s cowboys were in the middle of a trip and their horse died, they would leave the horse there. But even if they were in the middle of a desert, they would take their saddle with them. The horse was a consumable good, but the saddle was an interface that their bodies had gotten used to. In the same vein, PCs are consumable goods, while keyboards are important interfaces." - Eiiti Wada

NEC APC-H4100E | Ducky DK9008 Shine MX blue LED red | Ducky DK9008 Shine MX blue LED green | Link 900243-08 | CM QFR MX black | KeyCool 87 white MX reds | HHKB 2 Pro | Model M 02-Mar-1993 | Model M 29-Nov-1995 | CM Trigger (broken) | CM QFS MX green | Ducky DK9087 Shine 3 TKL Yellow Edition MX black | Lexmark SSK 21-Apr-1994 | IBM SSK 13-Oct-1987 | CODE TKL MX clear | Model M 122 01-Jun-1988

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Offline zslane

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Re: Double Shot ABS Vs. Dyesub PBT.
« Reply #21 on: Thu, 17 August 2017, 12:15:05 »
I don't know what folks have against glossy keycaps. Some keycap sets look great that way. For instance, I feel that SA Dasher will look its best after the keys turn really glossy.

SA sets are all glossy, aren't they?

They always look nice.

For the most part SA keysets have been glossy ("semi-matte" is what SP calls it, though I prefer "semi-gloss"), but they don't have to be. SP is capable of producing SA with a matte finish (Commando is one example). I keep meaning to ask Melissa if they can make their PBT SA keycaps with a matte finish...