HHKB 2 vs Realforce 87U 45g

[Altis]

So I've gotten my HHKB Pro 2 since after all this time, I really wanted to try it. What I'm about to say might rustle a few jimmies, but alas, in case anyone is trying to decide whether or not to try it, here are some thoughts.

The HHKB feels harsher than the Realforce 87U 45g. I'd say that the key weighting feels a bit heavier than the 45g in the Realforce. The sound is a lot harsher since the bottom-out sound is louder, the upstroke has a sharper but lower-pitch sound, and there is quite a noticeable amount of grittiness to the keys (some more than others).

I'm thinking of trying to figure out some way to sound deaden the case and maybe try lubing the stems because right now, it feels like a cheap version of the 87U. The Enter key makes a thud, some keys are quite a bit louder than others, the spacebar makes a bit of a hissing/gritty sound. The outer keys (ASD-L;') sound pretty good (fairly quiet, high pitch 'click' on upstroke) while the central (FGH) keys sound very harsh (hollow thock, loud 'clack' on upstroke). It makes for a pretty uneven typing sound. By comparison, the keys are far more consistent with their sounds on the Realforce boards -- they still vary a bit, naturally, but it sounds like one keyboard.

The layout isn't bad, though it would make a lot more sense to have the backspace/delete keys better sorted (or at least more options using the dip switches). Using the function key for arrows and navigation isn't all too bad, really, though if the function key itself were lighter I think that would feel better for my pinky (it doesn't like heavy keys much).

The build quality is generally pretty good, though the top case is slightly overhanging the bottom case on either side by quite a bit, which feels funny when you pick it up or move it from its sides.

After typing on it for a bit, I can kind of look past some of its qualities, but the moment I type on my Realforce it feels much smoother and more refined, as well as sounding better. The typing angle is noticeably steep. It isn't too bad when I'm sitting, but on my standing desk you can really tell. I suppose this depends entirely on your typing setup.

I really wanted to love the HHKB (at nearly a whopping $400 Canadian by the time it gets here), but right now I'm just not so sure. I do enjoy typing on it still, but it's hard to like it enough to have it worth this much money.

I do like how light it is and having the USB ports on the back is certainly handy at times. I'll probably report back after using it for a few weeks. Right now, between the two, I'd say the Realforce 87U is the better of the two, especially for use around people who might not appreciate the various thocks and clacks from the HHKB. I also really don't think the HHKB is worth the amount I spent on it, though much of that is due to the Canadian dollar and import charges right now.

Here you can see the typing angle of the HHKB vs the 87U (and some other boards):



And while I have you here, I might as well show you my KUL ES-87 and QFR with some nice PBT keycaps.  They look better in person as the lighting and white balance is off but you get the general idea.



EDIT
Update (copied from later post):

Although I still maintain all my original critiques of the HHKB, I really do enjoy using it. It's fun to type on and the layout really isn't too bad. I would change a few of the secondary key positions -- they make sense logically where they are, but they are less practical. For example, I would move the 'PrintScreen' from the 'i' to the ']' key just so that it's easier to reach.

I think I'm going to add some sound deadening to the case to reduce the hollowness and hopefully reduce the gritty sounds. I might also lubricate the stems and see if that makes a difference.

I am definitely keeping this keyboard though and I don't regret buying it, even though it cost an unreasonably high amount to get it here in Canada.

One thing is for sure: it has character... and whether or not it's objectively great, it has that second kind of cool that just makes you want to keep hacking away on it.

[mobbo]

Man, this is the exact review I've been looking for. I've been heavily debating which Topre board to get and it boiled down to these two. I also just ordered two 60% keyboards (MX) so I'm not sure I want to add a third. Been leaning towards Realforce and I think you just me a good reason to trust my gut.

[Altis]

Man, this is the exact review I've been looking for. I've been heavily debating which Topre board to get and it boiled down to these two. I also just ordered two 60% keyboards (MX) so I'm not sure I want to add a third. Been leaning towards Realforce and I think you just me a good reason to trust my gut.

I'm glad you found it useful.

I still say that the Realforce 87U is the best Topre board (hence having two) and is pretty much my favorite keyboard at this point. If you don't like Topre switches in an 87U, I suspect you won't likely enjoy them in anything else.

The big debate for that seems to be 45g vs 55g, with most people around here preferring the 55g. I personally far prefer the 45g (uniform) though.

[tararais]

Interesting review. I had a different experience personally, having started with a Leopold and then moved on to a HHKB Type-S, and it seems most people find that the HHKB, due to its case-mounted rather than plate-mounted switches, has a more organic feeling and sound to it, which I agree with. 

[tjcertified]

I have tried both the HHKB and just recently received a RealForce 87UB EK (45g uniform). The HHKB definitely has a distinct sound, but the RealForce is very close. I prefer the RealForce so far, just because of the layout. I had the HHKB for two weeks, and found the need to chord for many of my keystrokes (I am a programmer, so a lot of Fn key shortcuts) distracting. I want my keyboard to be high quality, but I also want it to not impede my typing, so RealForce was a definite winner for me.

[rowdy]

I have tried both the HHKB and just recently received a RealForce 87UB EK (45g uniform). The HHKB definitely has a distinct sound, but the RealForce is very close. I prefer the RealForce so far, just because of the layout. I had the HHKB for two weeks, and found the need to chord for many of my keystrokes (I am a programmer, so a lot of Fn key shortcuts) distracting. I want my keyboard to be high quality, but I also want it to not impede my typing, so RealForce was a definite winner for me.

I found similar using my HHKB under Windows.  I was too dependent on arrow keys, home/end and function keys to be able to use it efficiently, so I took it home and use it on my Mac.

Macs make far more use of cursor movement Ctrl sequences, and with the Ctrl key where it is on the HHKB it is super easy.

[tjcertified]

The first thing I changed via dips on the RF was the Ctrl and Caps Lock keys, so I completely agree with the placement. I found your comments interesting because I used my HHKB on a Mac, but my company uses Silverlight, so I run a Windows VM, and you are right, that is where my trouble was. I got used to the arrow keys quickly enough, but the Home/End combos just got to be too much on the Win side. I use Vim/VsVim (a Vim plugin for Visual Studio) all the time, which is why I changed the modifiers. It the whole OS used those keybindings and modal editing, then I might have kept the HHKB. However, I cannot complain about the RF at all. I love it just as much as the HHKB, honestly.

[raymogi]

I agree with how the RF feels more premium of the two. However, after using both for quite some time now, I actually like how the HHKB sound better.

Maybe it's due to the plastic case but I dig the sound more, especially with 55g in the HHKB. I'm looking to get a 660C in the future though so I'm wondering how that sounds. More like the RF?

[Altis]

I have tried both the HHKB and just recently received a RealForce 87UB EK (45g uniform). The HHKB definitely has a distinct sound, but the RealForce is very close. I prefer the RealForce so far, just because of the layout. I had the HHKB for two weeks, and found the need to chord for many of my keystrokes (I am a programmer, so a lot of Fn key shortcuts) distracting. I want my keyboard to be high quality, but I also want it to not impede my typing, so RealForce was a definite winner for me.

I'd say that despite the original intent of the design of the HHKB, the layout is perhaps not quite as efficient in some ways. Funky key combinations can take away from the flow at times.

I have a KUL ES-87 which can swap the CTRL and CAPS keys as well as the Backspace and '\' keys, so it gave me a bit of an idea of having to deal with that aspect of the layout before buying. It was the backspace I was most worried about.

I'm pleasantly surprised by how quickly the arrow keys using the function key became natural. Home and End are a bit of a stretch... would prefer them to have been closer to the fn key.

Interesting review. I had a different experience personally, having started with a Leopold and then moved on to a HHKB Type-S, and it seems most people find that the HHKB, due to its case-mounted rather than plate-mounted switches, has a more organic feeling and sound to it, which I agree with.

I'm not exactly sure what makes a sound 'organic'. Perhaps I should make a video showing the HHKB and the two 87Us -- oddly enough, the white keys sound different than the black keys. Whooda thunk.

I agree with how the RF feels more premium of the two. However, after using both for quite some time now, I actually like how the HHKB sound better.

Maybe it's due to the plastic case but I dig the sound more, especially with 55g in the HHKB. I'm looking to get a 660C in the future though so I'm wondering how that sounds. More like the RF?

To each their own! I don't mean to imply that it's bad or unlikable. It just isn't as smooth, quiet, or consistent as the Realforce. It definitely has character, and I can sure appreciate having some character in a keyboard. (perhaps the nerdiest thing I've ever said, btw)


And really guys, no comment on the 5-tone blanked out sister boards??  You can't see it in the photos but the plate is bright red on the QFR.

[kosm3]

Nice review, i ordered a hhkb2 as my first topre but i'm alreadu looking to those rf 87u ..

[Agarito]

Nice keyboards! I really want to like the realforce more than the hhkb (since I prefer heavier keyboards) but can't get over the look of the keyboard; the space above the final row is too big for my taste.

[rowdy]

Nice review, i ordered a hhkb2 as my first topre but i'm alreadu looking to those rf 87u ..

You'll probably end up keeping both - they each have their purposes.

[moshimalloe]

So I've gotten my HHKB Pro 2 since after all this time, I really wanted to try it. What I'm about to say might rustle a few jimmies, but alas, in case anyone is trying to decide whether or not to try it, here are some thoughts.

The HHKB feels harsher than the Realforce 87U 45g. I'd say that the key weighting feels a bit heavier than the 45g in the Realforce. The sound is a lot harsher since the bottom-out sound is louder, the upstroke has a sharper but lower-pitch sound, and there is quite a noticeable amount of grittiness to the keys (some more than others).

I'm thinking of trying to figure out some way to sound deaden the case and maybe try lubing the stems because right now, it feels like a cheap version of the 87U. The Enter key makes a thud, some keys are quite a bit louder than others, the spacebar makes a bit of a hissing/gritty sound. The outer keys (ASD-L;') sound pretty good (fairly quiet, high pitch 'click' on upstroke) while the central (FGH) keys sound very harsh (hollow thock, loud 'clack' on upstroke). It makes for a pretty uneven typing sound. By comparison, the keys are far more consistent with their sounds on the Realforce boards -- they still vary a bit, naturally, but it sounds like one keyboard.

The layout isn't bad, though it would make a lot more sense to have the backspace/delete keys better sorted (or at least more options using the dip switches). Using the function key for arrows and navigation isn't all too bad, really, though if the function key itself were lighter I think that would feel better for my pinky (it doesn't like heavy keys much).

The build quality is generally pretty good, though the top case is slightly overhanging the bottom case on either side by quite a bit, which feels funny when you pick it up or move it from its sides.

After typing on it for a bit, I can kind of look past some of its qualities, but the moment I type on my Realforce it feels much smoother and more refined, as well as sounding better. The typing angle is noticeably steep. It isn't too bad when I'm sitting, but on my standing desk you can really tell. I suppose this depends entirely on your typing setup.

I really wanted to love the HHKB (at nearly a whopping $400 Canadian by the time it gets here), but right now I'm just not so sure. I do enjoy typing on it still, but it's hard to like it enough to have it worth this much money.

I do like how light it is and having the USB ports on the back is certainly handy at times. I'll probably report back after using it for a few weeks. Right now, between the two, I'd say the Realforce 87U is the better of the two, especially for use around people who might not appreciate the various thocks and clacks from the HHKB. I also really don't think the HHKB is worth the amount I spent on it, though much of that is due to the Canadian dollar and import charges right now.

Here you can see the typing angle of the HHKB vs the 87U (and some other boards):

Show Image

And while I have you here, I might as well show you my KUL ES-87 and QFR with some nice PBT keycaps.  :cool: They look better in person as the lighting and white balance is off but you get the general idea.

Show Image

This is the dream. The amount of boards in there. Hehe. I'm having something coming in soon that should look kinda like this :3

[ripwallet]

I sold my HHKB after about a month they layout just didnt click with me. My daily driver now is a RF 87U 55g and i much prefer it. It feels fantastic and the layout is just what i need.

[Polymer]

Most of your observations are probably accurate although which someone prefers will be completely subjective.

The additional sound you get from the HHKB, some people actually prefer.  The fact that it feels like it takes slightly more pressure to press down is something some people prefer (It isn't a huge difference).  I don't think it is the difference between someone being able to stand sitting next to you and someone not...the HHKB is louder, but it isn't tremendously louder..
The HHKB definitely feels more organic...the HHKB has a much warmer feel to it..but some people will prefer the harder feel of the RF plate and some will not. 

The layout is probably the hardest thing for people to get used to..you either spend the time getting used to it and love it....or you never get used to it and hate it....I like 60% but it isn't the game changer TKL is to FULL....

They're both great keyboards....but the feel of the HHKB will either make sense to someone or it won't..

[Frizer]

I have the JP Pro2 Type-S, mainly because of the layout is so much closer to a TKL. I love typing on it but in all honesty it isn't worth the $.
I am trying to get my hands on a Realforce, especially to see how the variable boards are vs the uniform.

[Altis]

This is the dream. The amount of boards in there. Hehe. I'm having something coming in soon that should look kinda like this :3

It's an expensive dream that's very hard to justify at times! 

I sold my HHKB after about a month they layout just didnt click with me. My daily driver now is a RF 87U 55g and i much prefer it. It feels fantastic and the layout is just what i need.

The layout can get really cumbersome, depending on what you're doing. I really think that at best, it's kind of fun if you only need the nav-keys on occasion, but if you use them a lot it really gets annoying. I certainly wouldn't want this to be my only keyboard. A KUL ES-87 goes well as a TKL alternative to have with it since the backspace and control keys can be set up just like on the HHKB.

Most of your observations are probably accurate although which someone prefers will be completely subjective.

The additional sound you get from the HHKB, some people actually prefer.  The fact that it feels like it takes slightly more pressure to press down is something some people prefer (It isn't a huge difference).  I don't think it is the difference between someone being able to stand sitting next to you and someone not...the HHKB is louder, but it isn't tremendously louder..
The HHKB definitely feels more organic...the HHKB has a much warmer feel to it..but some people will prefer the harder feel of the RF plate and some will not. 

The layout is probably the hardest thing for people to get used to..you either spend the time getting used to it and love it....or you never get used to it and hate it....I like 60% but it isn't the game changer TKL is to FULL....

They're both great keyboards....but the feel of the HHKB will either make sense to someone or it won't..

Of course which one someone would prefer is totally up to their own tastes. I still have the HHKB and am finding it really fun to use, actually (if perhaps the only keyboard that I would describe as "fun"), but it depends a bit on what I'm doing with it.

It is objectively more gritty and noisy, though. I don't know exactly what an "organic" keyboard would be like... I interpret that to mean that it has lots of character. To that I would certainly agree. The 87U is smoother, quieter, and much more consistent. But that doesn't mean that the HHKB isn't good.

The more I use it, the more I find it actually a bit addictive. It really needs to be on a soft surface, though. I just wish that the center-most keys didn't make such a clack compared with the others.

I think I still need a few more weeks to really see how I feel about it. I've certainly warmed up to it more and more since I first started using it.

The thing that I find funny is that the backspace of the HHKB, after only a day or two of use, now feels like the natural position that my fingers go to despite twenty years of it being in the traditional spot.

I have the JP Pro2 Type-S, mainly because of the layout is so much closer to a TKL. I love typing on it but in all honesty it isn't worth the $.
I am trying to get my hands on a Realforce, especially to see how the variable boards are vs the uniform.

I haven't tried the variable yet, though I think I'd really like to. It certainly makes sense in my mind because I notice my left pinky is the first to get tired, though I'm just hesitant about a keyboard with different weightings.

They're all so expensive though, especially here in Canada, so I'm not sure I'll ever get to try the variable 87U unless I trade my 55g domes with one.

[chroness]

Great review. I just picked up a hhkb and absolutely love it but haven't typed on a Realforce so don't have anything in particular to compare it to in the world of topre. I may have to look into trying one though after seeing this comparison!

[GenKaan]

Never had them next to each other but after a few months with a Realforce 88ub I wasnt convinced so I traded it for a HHKB. Would honestly use my Shine 3 TKL over the 88ub and I do not see a point in having two TKL boards. But my HHKB is my main keyboard, partly because of the ANSI advantage over ISO when it comes to coding/programming

Great review

[Altis]

Quick update:

Although I still maintain all my original critiques of the HHKB, I really do enjoy using it. It's fun to type on and the layout really isn't too bad. I would change a few of the secondary key positions -- they make sense logically where they are, but they are less practical. For example, I would move the 'PrintScreen' from the 'i' to the ']' key just so that it's easier to reach.

I think I'm going to add some sound deadening to the case to reduce the hollowness and hopefully reduce the gritty sounds. I might also lubricate the stems and see if that makes a difference.

I am definitely keeping this keyboard though and I don't regret buying it, even though it cost an unreasonably high amount to get it here in Canada.

One thing is for sure: it has character... and whether or not it's objectively great, it has that second kind of cool that just makes you want to keep hacking away on it.

[samsam]

Do like the size of the HHKB2 ...but can't live without my arrow cluster.. 

i know i know there is a key combo..and so on..

Guess i read the Post again..Living in the EU Realforce board would have to come from the UK and HHKB2 from ebay i think..
But would love an S model. that goes for both options..

Stil thinking it over..

[rowdy]

Do like the size of the HHKB2 ...but can't live without my arrow cluster.. 

i know i know there is a key combo..and so on..

Guess i read the Post again..Living in the EU Realforce board would have to come from the UK and HHKB2 from ebay i think..
But would love an S model. that goes for both options..

Stil thinking it over..

HHKB 2 Pro JP?

Has dedicated arrows and cup rubber!

[Altis]

Do like the size of the HHKB2 ...but can't live without my arrow cluster.. 

i know i know there is a key combo..and so on..

Guess i read the Post again..Living in the EU Realforce board would have to come from the UK and HHKB2 from ebay i think..
But would love an S model. that goes for both options..

Stil thinking it over..

The size is nice, as is the weight if you plan on taking it with you much.

I thought I would need my arrow keys but I very quickly got used to the function-layer arrows. I kind of prefer it now, even, though I wish Home/End were a bit less of a stretch.

They're both great keyboards. I think if I absolutely had to have only one, I'd keep the Realforce as it's a bit quieter, smoother, and feels a bit more refined, as well as having a normal layout that doesn't take much thought and others can use fine.

That said, for some reason I find myself using the HHKB because it's just so enjoyable to type on, and dare I say... fun!

[rowdy]

Also FC660C is another alternative. 60%, has dedicated arrows, and home/end etc. are easier to reach.

[sintklaas73]

love those blanks. gateron maybe?

[Altis]

love those blanks. gateron maybe?

Thanks!

I wish I could recall -- they were from Massdrop within the last 6-8 months or so. I want to say they were Vortex.

[alienman82]

removed.

[livingspeedbump]

Also FC660C is another alternative. 60%, has dedicated arrows, and home/end etc. are easier to reach.

I will just say from my experience, the FC660C's haven't impressed me. I FINALLY got a white one a while back, and it looked glorious. The caps, the off white color, and the formula for capacitance on the front just made it so classy. The weight was great too, much better than the HHKB. But the QC on the white and black ones I've had has been sub par, with the bottoms both being slightly torqued, making them wobble with and without the feet down. I heard this was common though, probably part of the reason Brian at EK stopped selling them honestly.

[sintklaas73]

Is novatouch silenced that different to Hhkb2 or RF's 45g?

[iLLucionist]

So I've gotten my HHKB Pro 2 since after all this time, I really wanted to try it. What I'm about to say might rustle a few jimmies, but alas, in case anyone is trying to decide whether or not to try it, here are some thoughts.

The HHKB feels harsher than the Realforce 87U 45g. I'd say that the key weighting feels a bit heavier than the 45g in the Realforce. The sound is a lot harsher since the bottom-out sound is louder, the upstroke has a sharper but lower-pitch sound, and there is quite a noticeable amount of grittiness to the keys (some more than others).

I'm thinking of trying to figure out some way to sound deaden the case and maybe try lubing the stems because right now, it feels like a cheap version of the 87U. The Enter key makes a thud, some keys are quite a bit louder than others, the spacebar makes a bit of a hissing/gritty sound. The outer keys (ASD-L;') sound pretty good (fairly quiet, high pitch 'click' on upstroke) while the central (FGH) keys sound very harsh (hollow thock, loud 'clack' on upstroke). It makes for a pretty uneven typing sound. By comparison, the keys are far more consistent with their sounds on the Realforce boards -- they still vary a bit, naturally, but it sounds like one keyboard.

The layout isn't bad, though it would make a lot more sense to have the backspace/delete keys better sorted (or at least more options using the dip switches). Using the function key for arrows and navigation isn't all too bad, really, though if the function key itself were lighter I think that would feel better for my pinky (it doesn't like heavy keys much).

The build quality is generally pretty good, though the top case is slightly overhanging the bottom case on either side by quite a bit, which feels funny when you pick it up or move it from its sides.

After typing on it for a bit, I can kind of look past some of its qualities, but the moment I type on my Realforce it feels much smoother and more refined, as well as sounding better. The typing angle is noticeably steep. It isn't too bad when I'm sitting, but on my standing desk you can really tell. I suppose this depends entirely on your typing setup.

I really wanted to love the HHKB (at nearly a whopping $400 Canadian by the time it gets here), but right now I'm just not so sure. I do enjoy typing on it still, but it's hard to like it enough to have it worth this much money.

I do like how light it is and having the USB ports on the back is certainly handy at times. I'll probably report back after using it for a few weeks. Right now, between the two, I'd say the Realforce 87U is the better of the two, especially for use around people who might not appreciate the various thocks and clacks from the HHKB. I also really don't think the HHKB is worth the amount I spent on it, though much of that is due to the Canadian dollar and import charges right now.

Here you can see the typing angle of the HHKB vs the 87U (and some other boards):

Show Image

And while I have you here, I might as well show you my KUL ES-87 and QFR with some nice PBT keycaps.  :cool: They look better in person as the lighting and white balance is off but you get the general idea.

Show Image

EDIT
Update (copied from later post):

Although I still maintain all my original critiques of the HHKB, I really do enjoy using it. It's fun to type on and the layout really isn't too bad. I would change a few of the secondary key positions -- they make sense logically where they are, but they are less practical. For example, I would move the 'PrintScreen' from the 'i' to the ']' key just so that it's easier to reach.

I think I'm going to add some sound deadening to the case to reduce the hollowness and hopefully reduce the gritty sounds. I might also lubricate the stems and see if that makes a difference.

I am definitely keeping this keyboard though and I don't regret buying it, even though it cost an unreasonably high amount to get it here in Canada.

One thing is for sure: it has character... and whether or not it's objectively great, it has that second kind of cool that just makes you want to keep hacking away on it.

Mmm... that black kul with those caps look so damn sexy.

[toxicdrift]

feeling good that i went with the 87u, I should have it in another week (stuck @ customs). As much as I would want to try the HHKB, the arrow keys are what made me stay away from it,  the build quality as suggested by everyone is also better on the realforce, and  coming from a cm rapid-i browns the 87u felt like the end game keyboard for my use. cant wait to try it out

[iLLucionist]

feeling good that i went with the 87u, I should have it in another week (stuck @ customs). As much as I would want to try the HHKB, the arrow keys are what made me stay away from it,  the build quality as suggested by everyone is also better on the realforce, and  coming from a cm rapid-i browns the 87u felt like the end game keyboard for my use. cant wait to try it out

I have both the KUL es-87 (clears) and the HHKB Pro 2 white and in black, and I have ordered the 87U in black with 55g as well.

Really curious about how plate-mounted topres feel and the praised build quality of the 87u.

[toxicdrift]

looking fwd to your impressions since you will have tried both, alot of people wanting to shift on topre's talk about the hhkb and realforce so it will be good information for those wanting to know about all the pro's / con's  and other differences of both the boards

[iLLucionist]

looking fwd to your impressions since you will have tried both, alot of people wanting to shift on topre's talk about the hhkb and realforce so it will be good information for those wanting to know about all the pro's / con's  and other differences of both the boards

Thanks.. time for a review and comparison then when the board is in and tested. I can compare: Filco TKL browns with KUL ES-87 clears with HHKB 45G and realforce u87u 55g.

Special things you are curious about?

[Altis]

I have both the KUL es-87 (clears) and the HHKB Pro 2 white and in black, and I have ordered the 87U in black with 55g as well.

Really curious about how plate-mounted topres feel and the praised build quality of the 87u.

That's great! I actually changed out my KUL ES-87 from MX Clears to tactile Zealios (mostly 62g) and I like it much more since the notorious ping is pretty much gone entirely.

feeling good that i went with the 87u, I should have it in another week (stuck @ customs). As much as I would want to try the HHKB, the arrow keys are what made me stay away from it,  the build quality as suggested by everyone is also better on the realforce, and  coming from a cm rapid-i browns the 87u felt like the end game keyboard for my use. cant wait to try it out

Nice! What weight did you get the 87u in?

If you look at my sig you'll notice I have a wide variety of keyboards and switches at this point and if I had to choose only one, there's a good chance it'd be my 87u in 45g.

I've actually sound-deadened mine with some foam liner and I love it even more. It's the smoothest keyboard I have and it sounds it as well.

[iLLucionist]

I have both the KUL es-87 (clears) and the HHKB Pro 2 white and in black, and I have ordered the 87U in black with 55g as well.

Really curious about how plate-mounted topres feel and the praised build quality of the 87u.

That's great! I actually changed out my KUL ES-87 from MX Clears to tactile Zealios (mostly 62g) and I like it much more since the notorious ping is pretty much gone entirely.

feeling good that i went with the 87u, I should have it in another week (stuck @ customs). As much as I would want to try the HHKB, the arrow keys are what made me stay away from it,  the build quality as suggested by everyone is also better on the realforce, and  coming from a cm rapid-i browns the 87u felt like the end game keyboard for my use. cant wait to try it out

Nice! What weight did you get the 87u in?

If you look at my sig you'll notice I have a wide variety of keyboards and switches at this point and if I had to choose only one, there's a good chance it'd be my 87u in 45g.

I've actually sound-deadened mine with some foam liner and I love it even more. It's the smoothest keyboard I have and it sounds it as well.

What are Zealios? Like an MX clone like gateron?

Curious about your foam liner mod.. Care to explain?

[bocahgundul]

I have both the KUL es-87 (clears) and the HHKB Pro 2 white and in black, and I have ordered the 87U in black with 55g as well.

Really curious about how plate-mounted topres feel and the praised build quality of the 87u.

That's great! I actually changed out my KUL ES-87 from MX Clears to tactile Zealios (mostly 62g) and I like it much more since the notorious ping is pretty much gone entirely.

feeling good that i went with the 87u, I should have it in another week (stuck @ customs). As much as I would want to try the HHKB, the arrow keys are what made me stay away from it,  the build quality as suggested by everyone is also better on the realforce, and  coming from a cm rapid-i browns the 87u felt like the end game keyboard for my use. cant wait to try it out

Nice! What weight did you get the 87u in?

If you look at my sig you'll notice I have a wide variety of keyboards and switches at this point and if I had to choose only one, there's a good chance it'd be my 87u in 45g.

I've actually sound-deadened mine with some foam liner and I love it even more. It's the smoothest keyboard I have and it sounds it as well.

What are Zealios? Like an MX clone like gateron?

Curious about your foam liner mod.. Care to explain?

Yep a really good clone

[rowdy]

What are Zealios? Like an MX clone like gateron?

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=69590.0

[toxicdrift]

feeling good that i went with the 87u, I should have it in another week (stuck @ customs). As much as I would want to try the HHKB, the arrow keys are what made me stay away from it,  the build quality as suggested by everyone is also better on the realforce, and  coming from a cm rapid-i browns the 87u felt like the end game keyboard for my use. cant wait to try it out

Nice! What weight did you get the 87u in?

If you look at my sig you'll notice I have a wide variety of keyboards and switches at this point and if I had to choose only one, there's a good chance it'd be my 87u in 45g.

I've actually sound-deadened mine with some foam liner and I love it even more. It's the smoothest keyboard I have and it sounds it as well.

i have the 55g white (got it from massdrop)  ... am looking for guides for the silencing mod, but i just want to try it out stock first and see how i like it.

[rowdy]

feeling good that i went with the 87u, I should have it in another week (stuck @ customs). As much as I would want to try the HHKB, the arrow keys are what made me stay away from it,  the build quality as suggested by everyone is also better on the realforce, and  coming from a cm rapid-i browns the 87u felt like the end game keyboard for my use. cant wait to try it out

Nice! What weight did you get the 87u in?

If you look at my sig you'll notice I have a wide variety of keyboards and switches at this point and if I had to choose only one, there's a good chance it'd be my 87u in 45g.

I've actually sound-deadened mine with some foam liner and I love it even more. It's the smoothest keyboard I have and it sounds it as well.

i have the 55g white (got it from massdrop)  ... am looking for guides for the silencing mod, but i just want to try it out stock first and see how i like it.

Don't mess with perfection!

[toxicdrift]

Ya mostly won't,  its a big purchase for me and I wouldn't want to screw it up incase something goes wrong during the mod lol

[iLLucionist]

Anybody care to share how the foam liner mod works? Links? Pics?

[Elrick]

Don't mess with perfection!

Listen to Rowds, he knows what he's talking about here  .

Here's a word to the wise, all those that have messed around with their "thorpies" suddenly find out when they try to put them back together, they lose their original feel then you'll find those exact Einstein's, selling their molested RFs or HHKBs in the Classifieds. 

Have to ask yourself, would it be because of their inept molestation of these fine products, that they are forced to get rid of them?

[Altis]

Anybody care to share how the foam liner mod works? Links? Pics?

Basically the idea is to fill the inside of the keyboard case with a foam-like material (most commonly used is drawer liner that you can get at the dollar store).

You cut out piece and put them inside so that it takes up the space. I make it so that they're in there somewhat compressed when you close it up.

It reduces the echo/hollow reverb sound and can reduce the downstroke sound as well, depending on how much you put in.

I do it for pretty much all of my keyboards except the Model Ms. It just makes them sound slightly more refined.

As a side-note, the KUL ES-87 opens up like a car hood! When you tilt it towards the front, it latches upwards and stays there. 

[iLLucionist]

Anybody care to share how the foam liner mod works? Links? Pics?

Basically the idea is to fill the inside of the keyboard case with a foam-like material (most commonly used is drawer liner that you can get at the dollar store).

You cut out piece and put them inside so that it takes up the space. I make it so that they're in there somewhat compressed when you close it up.

It reduces the echo/hollow reverb sound and can reduce the downstroke sound as well, depending on how much you put in.

I do it for pretty much all of my keyboards except the Model Ms. It just makes them sound slightly more refined.

As a side-note, the KUL ES-87 opens up like a car hood! When you tilt it towards the front, it latches upwards and stays there. 

Thanks! I'll most def try this out once I can get my grip on the materials. I did this back in the day with the inside of computer cases as well before we had "silenced cases".

[bocahgundul]

Don't mess with perfection!

Listen to Rowds, he knows what he's talking about here  .

Here's a word to the wise, all those that have messed around with their "thorpies" suddenly find out when they try to put them back together, they lose their original feel then you'll find those exact Einstein's, selling their molested RFs or HHKBs in the Classifieds. 

Have to ask yourself, would it be because of their inept molestation of these fine products, that they are forced to get rid of them?

This man says the truth
Just let your hhkb virgin please
or a trained virgin

[toxicdrift]

im gonna keep my 87u stock , thanks to all the advise guys.  i just hope it gets delivered this week.. 

[The Hobbiest]

Just found this thread and want to say thanks for sharing your experience. I actually just bought a kul es87 for a dedicated gaming board (coming from a cm qf with browns).  Anyways, because this forum i'm now on the topre hunt as well.  Its a tough decision between the HHKB and Realforce but between my actual needs and you're persuasive reviews I think the Realforce is going to win out.  Just have a couple of questions for you.  Are the topre boards as loud as your board with mx browns (im familiar with this sound)?  How would you compare the pressure needed to actuate between the mx browns, the 45g topre, and the 55g topre? 

[Altis]

Just found this thread and want to say thanks for sharing your experience. I actually just bought a kul es87 for a dedicated gaming board (coming from a cm qf with browns).  Anyways, because this forum i'm now on the topre hunt as well.  Its a tough decision between the HHKB and Realforce but between my actual needs and you're persuasive reviews I think the Realforce is going to win out.  Just have a couple of questions for you.  Are the topre boards as loud as your board with mx browns (im familiar with this sound)?  How would you compare the pressure needed to actuate between the mx browns, the 45g topre, and the 55g topre?

What switches did you get your KUL ES-87 with?

It depends on the keyboard, but I'd say that my Realforce 87U with 45g uniform switches and sound deadened case is acceptably quiet but sounds very nice.

My HHKB -- even with sound deadening in the case -- makes more noise but only really in the center of the keyboard. I think twice about bringing it to work as a result. The *clack* of the GHTBNF keys is not a pleasing or subtle sound, although most of the rest of the keys sound fine.

The 87U has a steel plate inside whereas the HHKB does not. Thus, the 87U sounds pretty consistent and doesn't really stand out. It's tough to compare it with Cherry MX keyboards because they have a clack when they bottom-out and make different noises overall. Topre tends to give you a thock on the downstroke and then something between a *click* and a *clack* on the upstroke. I'd say Topre is generally speaking more quiet than Cherry MX keyboards. Having smoother MX-based switches (such as Gaterons or Zealios) reduces the noise of those keyboards quite a bit, I find.

My advice is to listen to some youtube videos to get some idea of what the sound itself is like, but it's very difficult to tell how loud it will be until you get it.

[The Hobbiest]

I got Cherry Reds on the Kul.  I replaced the keycaps with some Ducky thick PBT dye subs in OEM profile which lowered the tone of the keystrokes if/when I bottom out. Sometimes I do and sometimes I don't but I am finding this board consistently quieter than the board with mx browns I had previously used for two years. Haven't had any "ping" in the two weeks i've had the board but still might do the case sound deadening mod. I actually have  that exact same material you used in the photos. How many layers do you suggest for the kul?

[Altis]

I got Cherry Reds on the Kul.  I replaced the keycaps with some Ducky thick PBT dye subs in OEM profile which lowered the tone of the keystrokes if/when I bottom out. Sometimes I do and sometimes I don't but I am finding this board consistently quieter than the board with mx browns I had previously used for two years. Haven't had any "ping" in the two weeks i've had the board but still might do the case sound deadening mod. I actually have  that exact same material you used in the photos. How many layers do you suggest for the kul?

I can't quite remember and it depends on the thickness. I usually fill enough so that it compresses a bit when closed up.

That's good you don't have the ping. It seems that the ping is pretty well exclusive to the heavier switches, namely MX Clear. Since having put 62g Zealios in mine, the notorious ping has pretty well gone away.

[The Hobbiest]

Not to hijack thread but i'm loving the solid feeling of the Kul from case to plate.  I'm leaning more towards the Realforce because i've read it shares that solid board feeling.  If I find out the 55g feels easier to keystroke than mx blacks then i'll probably be ordering within a week or so.

[Altis]

Not to hijack thread but i'm loving the solid feeling of the Kul from case to plate.  I'm leaning more towards the Realforce because i've read it shares that solid board feeling.  If I find out the 55g feels easier to keystroke than mx blacks then i'll probably be ordering within a week or so.

The KUL ES-87 is one of the most well thought-out keyboards I've ever used, if not the most. The build quality and execution is also right up there.

I'm not sure I'd say the 55g is much lighter than MX Black.

[iLLucionist]

Not to hijack thread but i'm loving the solid feeling of the Kul from case to plate.  I'm leaning more towards the Realforce because i've read it shares that solid board feeling.  If I find out the 55g feels easier to keystroke than mx blacks then i'll probably be ordering within a week or so.

The KUL ES-87 is one of the most well thought-out keyboards I've ever used, if not the most. The build quality and execution is also right up there.

I'm not sure I'd say the 55g is much lighter than MX Black.

Love the KUL. Although I love my 55g 87U as well, I think the KUL has even better build quality.

[Altis]

Not to hijack thread but i'm loving the solid feeling of the Kul from case to plate.  I'm leaning more towards the Realforce because i've read it shares that solid board feeling.  If I find out the 55g feels easier to keystroke than mx blacks then i'll probably be ordering within a week or so.

The KUL ES-87 is one of the most well thought-out keyboards I've ever used, if not the most. The build quality and execution is also right up there.

I'm not sure I'd say the 55g is much lighter than MX Black.

Love the KUL. Although I love my 55g 87U as well, I think the KUL has even better build quality.

The build quality of the KUL is absolutely top-shelf. It's a shame about the ping, but otherwise it's a very solid keyboard with a thick case plastic and tons of well thought-out features; little details like having multiple rubber pads on the bottom for using the various angles.

[iLLucionist]

Not to hijack thread but i'm loving the solid feeling of the Kul from case to plate.  I'm leaning more towards the Realforce because i've read it shares that solid board feeling.  If I find out the 55g feels easier to keystroke than mx blacks then i'll probably be ordering within a week or so.

The KUL ES-87 is one of the most well thought-out keyboards I've ever used, if not the most. The build quality and execution is also right up there.

I'm not sure I'd say the 55g is much lighter than MX Black.

Love the KUL. Although I love my 55g 87U as well, I think the KUL has even better build quality.

The build quality of the KUL is absolutely top-shelf. It's a shame about the ping, but otherwise it's a very solid keyboard with a thick case plastic and tons of well thought-out features; little details like having multiple rubber pads on the bottom for using the various angles.

Still I'm wondering what's up with that ping. I read about it here but I have not come across it myself or I just don't notice it..

[Altis]

Still I'm wondering what's up with that ping. I read about it here but I have not come across it myself or I just don't notice it..

Just as well. It sounds very much like the old crowbar sound from Half Life. *tong* kind of sound.

[iLLucionist]

Still I'm wondering what's up with that ping. I read about it here but I have not come across it myself or I just don't notice it..

Just as well. It sounds very much like the old crowbar sound from Half Life. *tong* kind of sound.

I may be wrong, but I believe what people refer to as ping is often the sound of the heavy springs in the Clears. Or IS that actually ping?

[Altis]

Still I'm wondering what's up with that ping. I read about it here but I have not come across it myself or I just don't notice it..

Just as well. It sounds very much like the old crowbar sound from Half Life. *tong* kind of sound.

I may be wrong, but I believe what people refer to as ping is often the sound of the heavy springs in the Clears. Or IS that actually ping?

It is ultimately the springs resonating that makes the "ping" noise. When the upstroke reaches the hard end, it makes the spring ping.

[iLLucionist]

Still I'm wondering what's up with that ping. I read about it here but I have not come across it myself or I just don't notice it..

Just as well. It sounds very much like the old crowbar sound from Half Life. *tong* kind of sound.

I may be wrong, but I believe what people refer to as ping is often the sound of the heavy springs in the Clears. Or IS that actually ping?

It is ultimately the springs resonating that makes the "ping" noise. When the upstroke reaches the hard end, it makes the spring ping.

Thanks for the explanation! I actually like that noise. It makes me remind I'm typing on a real mech keyboard. Recently, I tried my original Apple Macintosh (well, 512K SE) with that keyboard. And it also had ping but I like it. It gives the keyboard some character. But I can image people finding it highly annoying.

[the_marsbar]

Great read - thanks. I might have to invest in a Realforce at some point.

[HeeCh2ei]

Also FC660C is another alternative. 60%, has dedicated arrows, and home/end etc. are easier to reach.

But the QC on the white and black ones I've had has been sub par, with the bottoms both being slightly torqued, making them wobble with and without the feet down. I heard this was common though, probably part of the reason Brian at EK stopped selling them honestly.

It's the plate twist. I have 660C with this issue. But I'll twisted it in an opposite direction and now it don't wobble at all.

[losing_ctrl]

Also FC660C is another alternative. 60%, has dedicated arrows, and home/end etc. are easier to reach.

But the QC on the white and black ones I've had has been sub par, with the bottoms both being slightly torqued, making them wobble with and without the feet down. I heard this was common though, probably part of the reason Brian at EK stopped selling them honestly.

It's the plate twist. I have 660C with this issue. But I'll twisted it in an opposite direction and now it don't wobble at all.

My RealForce 87U came with plate twist as well. I gently yet firmly twisted it back such that it now sits perfectly flat.

[OperationT]

Woah, that keyboard collection. I just bought a black RealForce 87U 55g in white/grey caps on its way.

You mentioned that if you had to pick one keyboard out of your arsenal, you would pick the RF 87U 45g. Do you prefer the 45g over the 55g because the 45g is in TKL, or is it the feel/sound?

BTW, those two sister boards are beautiful. The white one looks friendly and dependable, while the black one looks mysterious, powerful, yet aloof. I really like how you put the colors together, and it even helps navigate through a blank keyboard. 5 tones - who would've thought of that - brilliant idea. I like them so much I saved the photo. I can see the red plate peeping from underneath the black one. Is it foam I see you have stuffed between the plate and PCB? How much does that help? Are these keycaps in OEM profile (as opposed to cherry)? Where'd you get them?

[jsto69]

Great review, interesting opinion. I've really been on the hunt for an HHKB pro 2 mainly because I like the layout and form factor, as well as it's relatively steep "elevation", for lack of a better term? I'm a bit new to the scene so I don't what to call that part of the design of a keyboard. Either way, this thread has definitely made me look closer into the realforce 87U despite much more preferring the form factor and layout of the Pro 2. Are there any other Topre boards that come close to mimicking the pro2 design at all?

[Altis]

Woah, that keyboard collection. I just bought a black RealForce 87U 55g in white/grey caps on its way.

You mentioned that if you had to pick one keyboard out of your arsenal, you would pick the RF 87U 45g. Do you prefer the 45g over the 55g because the 45g is in TKL, or is it the feel/sound?

BTW, those two sister boards are beautiful. The white one looks friendly and dependable, while the black one looks mysterious, powerful, yet aloof. I really like how you put the colors together, and it even helps navigate through a blank keyboard. 5 tones - who would've thought of that - brilliant idea. I like them so much I saved the photo. I can see the red plate peeping from underneath the black one. Is it foam I see you have stuffed between the plate and PCB? How much does that help? Are these keycaps in OEM profile (as opposed to cherry)? Where'd you get them?

Forgive the late reply. Both my 45g and 55g Realforce 87U are TKL (the 87U model is 87 keys). I just find that with my hands/fingers/wrists, I fatigue of the 55g more quickly and sometimes it causes me to miss a key since I didn't press hard enough.

Thanks for the kind words! It is indeed foam material inside the casing. I do it to most of my keyboards as I find it cuts down on the hollow sounds that you can get... makes them sound more tight. It makes enough of a difference and is more appreciated if you're already typing with the keyboard on a soft surface (desk mat, towel). You can get rolls of the stuff at the dollar store and try it out and see if you like it.

The keycaps are all Cherry profile. I don't really have a preference for one over the other... Cherry perhaps looks a bit better, IMO, but I was more concerned with the texture, sound, and appearance. I got all my blanks from Massdrop.

Great review, interesting opinion. I've really been on the hunt for an HHKB pro 2 mainly because I like the layout and form factor, as well as it's relatively steep "elevation", for lack of a better term? I'm a bit new to the scene so I don't what to call that part of the design of a keyboard. Either way, this thread has definitely made me look closer into the realforce 87U despite much more preferring the form factor and layout of the Pro 2. Are there any other Topre boards that come close to mimicking the pro2 design at all?

I'm not aware of any other Topre keyboards with the HHKB layout. If you prefer the layout of the HHKB2, I'd recommend just getting that. I actually use my HHKB quite a bit these days... It's an interesting keyboard to use. I wouldn't say it's objectively better... but subjectively... you may like it more.

Of course... you could get one of each and enjoy the best of both worlds. 

[Ashlyn]

I like Realforce 45g better , Layout is more better for me 

[Altis]

I like Realforce 45g better , Layout is more better for me 

Yeah if you use the cluster a lot, it can be more practical to have the standard layout.

The FC660C meets them halfway with a bit more standard of a layout.

Leopold is also coming out with the FC980C which will have the classic G80-1800 layout.

The tricky part is they also all feel and sound a bit different and each have a slightly different weight despite all being rated at 45g.

[itbesandrodoe]

Hmmm, I just recieved my HHKB today and I was interested in a Realforce before I bought this, Maybe I should have read your review before. 

[Altis]

Hmmm, I just recieved my HHKB today and I was interested in a Realforce before I bought this, Maybe I should have read your review before. 

I suppose it really depends on just what you want. My word is hardly the gospel... I'm one of the rare folks that prefers the 45g Realforce instead of 55g.

I still have two HHKB and two 87U. I do maintain that I'd keep the Realforce 87U 45g uniform above all my other keyboards if I was only allowed to keep one.... but I really do enjoy using the HHKB still.

It's one of those things that isn't necessarily better, but you just like it anyways.

But just to be safe, better get a Realforce too. 

[captaineleven]

LOL the gf said I'm free to buy a realforce next month for my birthday but I'm leaning towards the 45g because of my dainty baby hands can't handle any more than some 40-50g. I have an fc660c and love the weight on that but know for a fact I can't get any heavier than that or my fingers will start fatiguing. When I looked up info on topre weights, I can't seem to get a consensus on how it is because people are saying it's vastly different from mx switches.

In any case, do they sell 45g in the white color scheme because I have a dark wood desk and wanna have the white for aesthetic purposes? In your collection, you have the white casing with black caps so I wasn't sure if there was more modding involved in that one. I'm offloading my hhkb but I don't love it as much as I do the fc660c probably to the plate so I figured I might as well trade one expensive board for another lol

[Altis]

LOL the gf said I'm free to buy a realforce next month for my birthday but I'm leaning towards the 45g because of my dainty baby hands can't handle any more than some 40-50g. I have an fc660c and love the weight on that but know for a fact I can't get any heavier than that or my fingers will start fatiguing. When I looked up info on topre weights, I can't seem to get a consensus on how it is because people are saying it's vastly different from mx switches.

In any case, do they sell 45g in the white color scheme because I have a dark wood desk and wanna have the white for aesthetic purposes? In your collection, you have the white casing with black caps so I wasn't sure if there was more modding involved in that one. I'm offloading my hhkb but I don't love it as much as I do the fc660c probably to the plate so I figured I might as well trade one expensive board for another lol

I think the 45g uniform 87U is the "elite keyboards" edition that comes only in black. I have two 87Us, one in black and one in white (55g) and swapped the cases.

I find the 55g 87U to be fatiguing eventually and I end up missing keystrokes because I didn't press hard enough. I can certainly see why so many people prefer it, but it's just not for me, really.

I really want to give the FC660C a try sometime.

[captaineleven]

I think the 45g uniform 87U is the "elite keyboards" edition that comes only in black. I have two 87Us, one in black and one in white (55g) and swapped the cases.

I find the 55g 87U to be fatiguing eventually and I end up missing keystrokes because I didn't press hard enough. I can certainly see why so many people prefer it, but it's just not for me, really.

I really want to give the FC660C a try sometime.

I think you'll like the fc660c. It's one of the more enjoyable keyboards that I have, from the form factor to the sound and typing experience. I always go back to it.

And too bad about the ek edition. Really wanted it in the white.

Have you tried the variable edition? I'm curious about it but not sure if I wanna take the plunge on it. It seems to be a polarizing subject lol

[Altis]

I think the 45g uniform 87U is the "elite keyboards" edition that comes only in black. I have two 87Us, one in black and one in white (55g) and swapped the cases.

I find the 55g 87U to be fatiguing eventually and I end up missing keystrokes because I didn't press hard enough. I can certainly see why so many people prefer it, but it's just not for me, really.

I really want to give the FC660C a try sometime.

I think you'll like the fc660c. It's one of the more enjoyable keyboards that I have, from the form factor to the sound and typing experience. I always go back to it.

And too bad about the ek edition. Really wanted it in the white.

Have you tried the variable edition? I'm curious about it but not sure if I wanna take the plunge on it. It seems to be a polarizing subject lol

I haven't tried it but I actually suspect it's not bad. If you look at the weight map, the alphas are almost all 45g, with 30g for the 1QAZ column on the left and the 9OL. column on the right and over (but not the delete/return/shift column). Only the Escape key is 55g.

It does make quite a bit of sense depending on how you type.

One thing is that the black keycaps sound a bit different than the white ones. I personally prefer the sound although I prefer the look of the light keycaps more.

You could probably buy just the white/grey keycaps afterwards on eBay. It'd be more difficult to get the white case. Someone might want to trade.

[mushman]

On Rededit someone pointed out that a recent batch of FC660's have defects where the number row is registering at 30g. 

[Darkside]

I really enjoy the HHKB more.

[Altis]

I really enjoy the HHKB more.

In some ways, I do too. 

[booby_poor_boy]

I think the 45g uniform 87U is the "elite keyboards" edition that comes only in black. I have two 87Us, one in black and one in white (55g) and swapped the cases.

I find the 55g 87U to be fatiguing eventually and I end up missing keystrokes because I didn't press hard enough. I can certainly see why so many people prefer it, but it's just not for me, really.

I really want to give the FC660C a try sometime.

I think you'll like the fc660c. It's one of the more enjoyable keyboards that I have, from the form factor to the sound and typing experience. I always go back to it.

And too bad about the ek edition. Really wanted it in the white.

Have you tried the variable edition? I'm curious about it but not sure if I wanna take the plunge on it. It seems to be a polarizing subject lol

I haven't tried it but I actually suspect it's not bad. If you look at the weight map, the alphas are almost all 45g, with 30g for the 1QAZ column on the left and the 9OL. column on the right and over (but not the delete/return/shift column). Only the Escape key is 55g.

It does make quite a bit of sense depending on how you type.

One thing is that the black keycaps sound a bit different than the white ones. I personally prefer the sound although I prefer the look of the light keycaps more.

You could probably buy just the white/grey keycaps afterwards on eBay. It'd be more difficult to get the white case. Someone might want to trade.

How much of a difference is the sound between the White and black realforce keys?

I was thinking about getting a white set for my black 87u

[happylacquer]

Thank you for your comparison review bro! Wow, i have never seen such an in depth explanation of these two Topre boards. I was looking to pick up either a hhkb pro 2 or a realforce. Guess i will have to consider more than just layout? =)

[rabbitfire]

I'm thinking about buying either HHKB or Realforce to experience torpe switch. Thank you for your detailed review!

[hanoipho]

Thanks for your review! It helps alot 

[Altis]

How much of a difference is the sound between the White and black realforce keys?

I was thinking about getting a white set for my black 87u

Forgive the late reply...

It isn't a massive difference but I noticed it straight away. On bother my HHKB and 87U, the black sets make a bit more of a clicky sound on the upstroke whereas the white/grey keys make a more muted but slightly more clacky sound.

I much prefer the look of the light keycaps, but the sound of the black ones. Another thing is that they have a slightly difference textured feel on the top of the caps, with the light ones feeling a bit smoother/glossier while the black ones feel a bit more gritty (which I like).

Keep in mind we're talking about some pretty minor differences, so you may find the difference to be negligible entirely.

Thanks for your review! It helps alot 

I'm thinking about buying either HHKB or Realforce to experience torpe switch. Thank you for your detailed review!

Thank you for your comparison review bro! Wow, i have never seen such an in depth explanation of these two Topre boards. I was looking to pick up either a hhkb pro 2 or a realforce. Guess i will have to consider more than just layout? =)

Glad I could help!  What keyboards did you guys end up choosing?

(The correct answer is all of them, btw) 

[mousouchop]

Very informative thread, though I was only interested in be HHKB critiques. I saw some negative comments from at least one programmer, and a couple of people mention difficulties with Home/End, as well as luke warm feelings about the layer 2 arrow cluster. Seems more and more the HHKB might not be cut out for my programming needs (which I suspected due to the keys mentioned above...). I suppose I could get the JP version and get that Hasu controller board and remap to a US-like layout, but that might be more hassle than it's worth; it could also be a lot of (nerdy) fun too. hah

I guess I still have some thinking to do. Too bad there's no where I can think of that would carry these for me to try. The only electronics places near me are Best Buy.

[the_marsbar]

If you need a portable keyboard, the HHKB Pro 2 is the one to go for. It's much lighter than the Realforce, and I'm not sure the RF would even fit on the 13" MBA (I'm almost certain it won't).

Also, it seems like some people prefer the 55g version of the Realforce. It's not available in a silenced version (you mentioned in the other thread that you sometimes work during the evening at home).

I'd say I use the arrow keys and the PgUp/PgDn keys quite a lot, but not the Home/End keys that much. The arrow cluster was extremely easy for me to get used to (I even remapped my Novatouch in a similar way).

You could always buy a HHKB Pro 2, and sell it if you don't like it. It seems like they're easy enough to sell.

[Altis]

Very informative thread, though I was only interested in be HHKB critiques. I saw some negative comments from at least one programmer, and a couple of people mention difficulties with Home/End, as well as luke warm feelings about the layer 2 arrow cluster. Seems more and more the HHKB might not be cut out for my programming needs (which I suspected due to the keys mentioned above...). I suppose I could get the JP version and get that Hasu controller board and remap to a US-like layout, but that might be more hassle than it's worth; it could also be a lot of (nerdy) fun too. hah

I guess I still have some thinking to do. Too bad there's no where I can think of that would carry these for me to try. The only electronics places near me are Best Buy.

The Home/End is the trickiest part for me, especially on my black HHKB since I can't see the legends. The keys are far enough away from the Fn key that it's a bit of a stretch and they're tricky to accurately find quickly.

The arrow cluster actually is fine and I got used to it rather quickly.

There are a few things I would change in the layout if I could. Having right-UI (diamond key right of spacebar) to enable a new function layer with Home/End PageUp/PageDown over the existing arrows would probably be easier since it's the same 4 keys, just use a different function key depending on nav or arrows.

If you need a portable keyboard, the HHKB Pro 2 is the one to go for. It's much lighter than the Realforce, and I'm not sure the RF would even fit on the 13" MBA (I'm almost certain it won't).

Also, it seems like some people prefer the 55g version of the Realforce. It's not available in a silenced version (you mentioned in the other thread that you sometimes work during the evening at home).

I'd say I use the arrow keys and the PgUp/PgDn keys quite a lot, but not the Home/End keys that much. The arrow cluster was extremely easy for me to get used to (I even remapped my Novatouch in a similar way).

You could always buy a HHKB Pro 2, and sell it if you don't like it. It seems like they're easy enough to sell.

I certainly agree that the HHKB is the one to get for a portable keyboard. They even sell a specialized carrying case for it. The lack of plate makes it very light and the footprint is about as small as it gets. It's just a bit thick still.

[mousouchop]

@the_marsbar: hah. Did I mention pairing this with a 13" MBA in this thread? Either way, spot on with that comment. I would be looking to travel with this board and use with my MBA. I think I spoke with someone in another thread that overlays their HHKB on a MBP.

@Altis: Using Mac laptop's keyboard exclusively, I've become accustomed to using Cmd+L/R Arrow for Home/End. Looking at HHKB this command seems like it would be a somewhat cumbersome 3-key chord.

[the_marsbar]

Nope, you mentioned it in my thread. I was also the one who mentioned that the HHKB fits perfectly on top of the keyboard of a MacBook.

Cmd + L/R is not much different to Fn + K/, IMO (see photo of layout here: https://elitekeyboards.com/proddata/doc/hhkbp2_basic_layout1500.png).

Anyway, I think it comes down to whether you need a portable keyboard (HHKB is the way to go), or whether you want a keyboard with a "standard" layout (the RF would be the one to choose). I never tried a 60% keyboard without dedicated arrow keys before buying the HHKB, but I had no issues adjusting to the layout.