[Survey] We are designing the ultimate TrackPoint Mechanical Keyboard

[xtac-keyboards]

It started off as a one-off hobby project. A friend and me wanted a 60% TrackPoint mechanical keyboard with backlighting, ThinkPad style buttons, and fully programmable. We asked our enthusiast friends, and some places on the internet. The TEX Yoda was a massively successful keyboard that many want to see again. We did too, and we thought we could do better. We've started building the XtaC 01 Keyboard - a compact keyboard designed to be as wonderful an experience to use as a mechanical keyboard while allowing some people to even ditch their computer mice (if they're THAT comfortable with TrackPoints).

6 weeks later, and we have our preliminary design almost complete. The first PCB is just about ready to be printed, we've sourced evaluation boards, we're in talks with several manufacturers (for TrackPoints, sensors, the mouse buttons, the chassis, and the keycaps!) and now have some important design decisions to make. That's why we need your help in making the XtaC 01 Keyboard a reality.

We will have a limited run of 25 review/early bird boards (we're calling these the XtaC 00 batch) fully assembled and ready to ship by early October (the first assembled functioning board should be brought to life in the next 6 weeks), but the larger scale run (over 25 units) will not be for several months after October (Q1 - Q2 2017).

Who are we?

We're a pair of young adults that do Engineering for a living, and have been Engineers for as long as we can remember. Our hobbies include programming software, tinkering with hardware, and now designing keyboards! We'll reveal more stuff about ourselves (including our portfolios) after we have a solid foundation for this project and are ready to start asking for pre-order money (which won't be any time before we have several completely functioning boards!).

Without further ado, the XtaC 01 Keyboard survey. Let us know what YOU would like to see to make our keyboard a success. A large part of being able to make this more than a small one-time batch project is saving on manufacturing costs, and without bulk we're projected to break even at best.

(It's pronounced ecstasy, by the way. The name is preliminary.)

[QuincyJones]

So, you're a bunch of unknown nobodies who don't want to reveal anything about yourself except that your hobbies "include programming, tinkering with hardware and (because you saw $$$$ one assumes) designing keyboards". You have everything ready including talking to manufacturers but still nothing to show. No pictures. No pcb details. Nowt. You say it's nearly ready, but you're asking for ideas to make your keyboard a success.

How do you even know that a keyboard with a trackball is even wanted? The market may not be awash with them for a reason.

Welcome to the forum!

[kekman]

So, you're a bunch of unknown nobodies who don't want to reveal anything about yourself except that your hobbies "include programming, tinkering with hardware and (because you saw $$$$ one assumes) designing keyboards". You have everything ready including talking to manufacturers but still nothing to show. No pictures. No pcb details. Nowt. You say it's nearly ready, but you're asking for ideas to make your keyboard a success.

How do you even know that a keyboard with a trackball is even wanted? The market may not be awash with them for a reason.

Welcome to the forum!

They're not asking for your money, or you to instantly act excited over their keyboard. They're just asking for feedback and information in order to make a keyboard. And here you are throwing a tantrum over a keyboard that doesn't even exist, with your ****ty cynical attitude, and your unwillingness to just ignore something which you may not wish to see come to fruition and not make a useless, ****ty post which serves nothing except to prove how much of an arrogant, ignorant fool you are.

How about you stop trying to be a massive edgelord, instantly ****ting on everybody's thoughts and ideas, and deflate that terrible ego and maybe then you will be 'Welcome to the forum!'.

[dustigroove]

...hobbies "include programming, tinkering with hardware"...

Sounds like where a lot of products have had their start...

...because you saw $$$$ one assumes...

I didn't read anything that made me assume this.

You have everything ready including talking to manufacturers but still nothing to show. No pictures. No pcb details.

Hmm... did I miss a post where someone asked xtac-keyboards to produce this information?

Nowt. You say it's nearly ready, but you're asking for ideas to make your keyboard a success.

Okay, reasonable point... if everything is truly almost ready, why ask for input/feedback at this stage? Although to be fair, they did state that the preliminary design is almost complete and possibly an early run... not a final, shipping product. But I agree, xtac-keyboard's wording here is a bit contradictory and could lend to being somewhat suspect.

How do you even know that a keyboard with a trackball [sic] is even wanted? The market may not be awash with them for a reason.

The automotive market is also not (yet) awash with high-end, electric vehicles... but there's definitely a market there. I, for one, would jump all over a decent mech with a TrackPoint as I find them vastly superior to using a trackpad, trackball or mouse.

[xtac-keyboards]

Thanks for the quick feedback. We've been asked for renders and other information, so in the next few weeks we'll get together something to show off before a physical board is shown to at least hype up the product with some more "tangible" presentations.

The PCB design we have uses the designs marked with asterisks (*) in our survey because, as originally stated, this was meant as a hobby one-off board. The survey and feedback we ask for is to make sure it is worth the cost and time to make this more than just a one-off, and to get an idea of how to tailor our existing design to an audience that wants to own them as well.

We'll have a more complete PCB design and render in a few weeks. Once we conclude the surveying we'll modify the design accordingly and then release them.

As far as our experience goes, as mentioned we'll be sharing our personal information and our portfolios/experience when we're ready to take it past the design/vaporware stage and into group buy/crowdfunding. At that point you can decide whether or not to trust us. For now we're just trying to figure out if our potential product has a place in the market (and we think it does, mainly due to the success of similar boards like the TEX Yoda).

We're building the first few boards for ourselves at a loss anyway. Past that it depends on what others want.

[dustigroove]

We've been asked for renders and other information, so in the next few weeks we'll get together something to show off before a physical board is shown to at least hype up the product with some more "tangible" presentations [...] Once we conclude the surveying we'll modify the design accordingly and then release them [...] For now we're just trying to figure out if our potential product has a place in the market (and we think it does, mainly due to the success of similar boards like the TEX Yoda).

Thanks for the followup, looking forward to seeing what you all have in the works!

[priyadi]

I'm a trackpoint freak myself and in the process of building a couple keyboards with trackpoint for myself. I feel these talks about ergonomic are pretty much pointless if we never address the number one reason of hand movement. I think I'm going to be very interested if you can get a mechanical keyboard with trackpoint in the market.

Which trackpoint module do you have in mind? Tex Yoda use Sprintek's, but its web page is now showing it as 'obsoleted' . Tex Yoda's trackpoint also don't feel right to me, but maybe it was only a firmware issue, I don't know.

The only other alternative I know is to harvest from thinkpad keyboards. This is cheaper and better, but will probably limit its appeal to hobbyists.

[priyadi]

I believe you should target hobbyist market, at least at first. Several suggestions for you:

• Cherry compatible mechanical switches is a must
• Introduce gap between G & H keys, make them ¼-½U apart so users don't have to dremel their precious keycaps
• The gap also works better for ergonomics because cherry switches have longer travel than Thinkpads. Without gap, our finger will constantly rub with the sides of the trackpoint nub. Thinkpads have much shorter travel, so the problem doesn't happen.
• Ship with several trackpoint extension post of various length, as different keycaps have different height to them. For example, using SA profile on Tex Yoda makes the trackpoint pretty much unusable.
• Aim for standard keycap layout. If you decide to go with the gap, make the layout compatible with standard+tsangan set.
• Fully programmability!
• Make the middle button also act as Fn. With usage pattern of the middle button, this should be doable.
• Use standard switches for trackpoint buttons

[QuincyJones]

So, you're a bunch of unknown nobodies who don't want to reveal anything about yourself except that your hobbies "include programming, tinkering with hardware and (because you saw $$$$ one assumes) designing keyboards". You have everything ready including talking to manufacturers but still nothing to show. No pictures. No pcb details. Nowt. You say it's nearly ready, but you're asking for ideas to make your keyboard a success.

How do you even know that a keyboard with a trackball is even wanted? The market may not be awash with them for a reason.

Welcome to the forum!

They're not asking for your money, or you to instantly act excited over their keyboard. They're just asking for feedback and information in order to make a keyboard. And here you are throwing a tantrum over a keyboard that doesn't even exist, with your ****ty cynical attitude, and your unwillingness to just ignore something which you may not wish to see come to fruition and not make a useless, ****ty post which serves nothing except to prove how much of an arrogant, ignorant fool you are.

How about you stop trying to be a massive edgelord, instantly ****ting on everybody's thoughts and ideas, and deflate that terrible ego and maybe then you will be 'Welcome to the forum!'.

do you realise the irony contained within your post? the first post was asking for business information. the first post mentioned money will be involved. the first post mentioned how they wanted to do it for themselves but minimum batch of 25. maybe you should follow your own advice.

[kekman]

So, you're a bunch of unknown nobodies who don't want to reveal anything about yourself except that your hobbies "include programming, tinkering with hardware and (because you saw $$$$ one assumes) designing keyboards". You have everything ready including talking to manufacturers but still nothing to show. No pictures. No pcb details. Nowt. You say it's nearly ready, but you're asking for ideas to make your keyboard a success.

How do you even know that a keyboard with a trackball is even wanted? The market may not be awash with them for a reason.

Welcome to the forum!

They're not asking for your money, or you to instantly act excited over their keyboard. They're just asking for feedback and information in order to make a keyboard. And here you are throwing a tantrum over a keyboard that doesn't even exist, with your ****ty cynical attitude, and your unwillingness to just ignore something which you may not wish to see come to fruition and not make a useless, ****ty post which serves nothing except to prove how much of an arrogant, ignorant fool you are.

How about you stop trying to be a massive edgelord, instantly ****ting on everybody's thoughts and ideas, and deflate that terrible ego and maybe then you will be 'Welcome to the forum!'.

do you realise the irony contained within your post? the first post was asking for business information. the first post mentioned money will be involved. the first post mentioned how they wanted to do it for themselves but minimum batch of 25. maybe you should follow your own advice.

no **** there is money involved in joining a potential GB for a keyboard. also, point me to where they ask for business information in the post?

I don't see why you're so against this keyboard even though the only thing that's been asked of you is literally to fill out an optional survey of potential features.

[QuincyJones]

point me to where they ask for business information in the post?

i'm not your mommy or daddy, i don't have to do things for you. you're a big boy now and you can do them for yourself.

...the only thing that's been asked of you is literally to fill out an optional survey of potential features.

oh the irony... kek!

[feralfoo]

@xtac-keyboards this looks interesting, I've filled in the survey and will be keeping an eye on progress.

A few points of feedback:

• I would be more interested in a 65% layout. Arrow keys and extra page nav keys on the right are very handy, and more accessible to your less hardcore keyboard enthusiasts.
• Cost may be prohibitive. Losing the leds, ali case (plastic instead), caps and even the switches could bring this back into more palatable territory. These could be re-introduced as V1 options once you have initial boards out the door.
• Gimme them sweet renders or pics of a prototype.

Anyway welcome and good luck!

[kekman]

point me to where they ask for business information in the post?

i'm not your mommy or daddy, i don't have to do things for you. you're a big boy now and you can do them for yourself.

...the only thing that's been asked of you is literally to fill out an optional survey of potential features.

oh the irony... kek!

typical no-actual-points-made reply from somebody who's obviously always right.

[priyadi]

do you realise the irony contained within your post? the first post was asking for business information. the first post mentioned money will be involved. the first post mentioned how they wanted to do it for themselves but minimum batch of 25. maybe you should follow your own advice.

Oh I can totally understand their intention. I'm probably a ****ty engineer, but I've already spent more than $700-800 for my supposed "mechanical keyboard with trackpoints" project with no end product in sight, not to mention the time wasted on the "project". All I want is a good and reliable mechanical keyboard with trackpoint for myself, but I don't see how I can get the price down to manageable levels without getting other interested people on board. Theirs even has PCB, so it's going to be more expensive than my handwired ones.

[dustigroove]

@xtac-keyboards this looks interesting, I've filled in the survey and will be keeping an eye on progress.

• Losing the leds, ali case (plastic instead), caps and even the switches could bring this back into more palatable territory. These could be re-introduced as V1 options once you have initial boards out the door.

Anyway welcome and good luck!

I'm with feralfoo on this... find some non-vital areas to reduce costs for the first run while you cut your teeth, then reintroduce them for the larger run once you have everything more in place.

LED's, nicer keycaps and an aluminum case could be forgone as they could always be added after the fact. (I'd keep decent switch options though.)

You have my survey as well.

[FoxWolf1]

Great to see a new TrackPoint keyboard coming out! I'm a huge TrackPoint fan and would be willing to pay a premium for a keyboard with one if it met my other requirements. It doesn't sound like yours will, either, but I hope that you succeed and are able to come out with different models in the future.

[tassadarforaiur]

I definitely vote usb 3.0 on keyboard so we can still power additional items off the hub after the draw for leds and board itself. I know feature creep kills projects, but would you consider adding a bare minimum DAC into the keyboard so we could use it as a docking station?

[xtrafrood]

Survey filled out very cool stuff I hope you all have success with this project

[xtac-keyboards]

Thank you for the feedback and survey results. We're going to collectively address the constructive posts/suggestions here so far.

The Gap: As we said over on Deskthority, "We've discounted adding in spacing between the G H and B keys as we think that would feel unnatural to people who are used to standard spacing (not to mention, it would make two of the rows essentially ortholinear and would look odd as hell). However, other than making keys without cutouts for the trackpoint and of course printing the alternate functions (which may be moot as the keyboard is programmable) we're not going too far out there on making this so unique you can't mod it."

Switches: Cherry MX is the target at the moment.

Middle-button Fn: Noted, great idea. Will be implemented.

Layout, costs, LEDs: LEDs are the least cost prohibitive option, and surprisingly (so far) the majority of people want no backlight at all! We're going to include white LEDs that can be toggled in the final version of the XtaC 01, and we'll explore other options later (RGB is the minority and would bring some engineering issues when it comes to per-key lighting). As far as layout goes, it has been made abundantly clear that 60% is far and away the preferred layout.

USB 3.0/Feature creep: USB 3.0 was discussed at length and discounted due both to time, resource, and cost constraints, as well as our survey showing quite strongly that most folks prefer 2.0 or have no real preference. We discussed this at length earlier while tossing around the idea of a modular keyboard (see more below), and we're decided on having the XtaC 01 having a USB 2.0 hub and aren't looking at anything crazy just yet.

The XtaC 01 will be aiming at the enthusiast market, because that can help us launch into (hopefully!) a real brand. We have many ideas on what we would like the board to look like, and after reading feedback we're already seeing a lot of interest in some configurations we didn't anticipate (though our predicted majority was spot on). In particular, the mouse button crowd has been almost evenly split in our survey between regular keys and ThinkPad buttons. We also didn't anticipate the "M13" crowd, which wants buttons most similar to the Model M13, which feels the most "natural" when it comes to using a keyboard with a TrackPoint as a mouse over a traditional mouse. We're now modifying our design to explore modular button design, which means you will be able to swap out mechanical keys for ThinkPad buttons, or for an M13 button module.

There's been a lot of "we discussed"/"we would like to explore" talk above, and since the final design has not been created yet we cannot confirm what will be in the XtaC 01 definitely (yet), but the take-away from this post is the following:

- Cherry
- USB 2.0 Hub is the most likely inclusion in the XtaC 01
- The Mouse Buttons are most likely to be swappable in the XtaC 01, with options to "plug-n-play" mechanical keys and ThinkPad buttons for sure, and we would like to also include M13 buttons. Beyond that, there will be documentation on making your own button modules.
- 60% seems to be the current dominant layout preference.

Lastly, renders and prototypes, aka tangibles. At the risk of misrepresenting our progress, we can (with conservative estimates) announce that we have a site in the works that will launch with survey results in a fun little infographic, the current development status, and a prototype PCB design available for viewing by this weekend.

Please continue filling out the survey and let us know what you think, we're all ears!

[priyadi]

About the gap, I'm thinking something like this:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/a3977d32ef5c089e58f6c2b6649b1a2c

[dustigroove]

Not enough interest I take it?