Model M Rivet Replacement

[msiegel]

yeah!! go ripster!


beautiful documentation too

[wellington1869]

lovely pics, great documentation.

looks like it *does* sound different --- and better.

The goal is to get a little lighter feel with much less ping (my mini is the worst of my BS boards). So I just bought a Boscom (Unicomp) and will cannibalize the 122 springs and hammers.

This is a great idea - so you'll basically have rolled your own version of the much desired "unicomp mini". Brilliant.  Man, thats a lot of work though!

[talis]

Funny that the Canadian uses 4-40 Imperial hardware, and the American uses metric =P.

[DarthShrine]

Really nicely documented! So many pretty pictures to gawk at. Almost makes me want to do it myself.

[itlnstln]

Strong work, ripster.  That black, straight cable looks nice, too.

[rdjack21]

Really great mod and documentation. Thanks so much.

[kishy]

Wondering...could you get away with just doing a single row of bolts along the middle of the keyboard (say just above the home row)?

The plastic piece seems to want to stay flatter than the metal panel is curved so it seems it would hold itself safely in place and not need the bolts. That would reduce labour and time needed for this by a huge amount.

[ch_123]

Ripster reckons you can get away with only 9 of them. Im not sure which nine it is though.

[msiegel]

Wondering...could you get away with just doing a single row of bolts along the middle of the keyboard (say just above the home row)?

The plastic piece seems to want to stay flatter than the metal panel is curved so it seems it would hold itself safely in place and not need the bolts. That would reduce labour and time needed for this by a huge amount.

interesting idea... the model f's pcb is held in place (and in shape) by a similar technique -- just 2 metal pins in the middle-row of the board

[kishy]

Ripster reckons you can get away with only 9 of them. Im not sure which nine it is though.

I suppose you could do along the top and along the bottom. Since the metal sheet is curved and firm, it would sort of pinch the plastic in a position where it was properly curved throughout.

interesting idea... the model f's pcb is held in place (and in shape) by a similar technique -- just 2 metal pins in the middle-row of the board

Hmm...what kind of flex is there in that design?
 It occurred to me that a problem with my idea might be rattling/flexible parts.

[ch_123]

Hmm...what kind of flex is there in that design?

None. But that is different because there's no membrane to be attached to the bottom plate. I has a hard, thick PCB that slots into the bottom plate.

[kishy]

None. But that is different because there's no membrane to be attached to the bottom plate. I has a hard, thick PCB that slots into the bottom plate.
(images)

Wow...that's quite different (I knew it was different but not exactly how much).

[chimera15]

None. But that is different because there's no membrane to be attached to the bottom plate. I has a hard, thick PCB that slots into the bottom plate.

Show Image

Show Image

I bought an xt f when I first started looking for keyboards.  I took it apart and it's been laying in a box in pieces for years now.  I wonder if there's a way to cut the pcb apart and make a self contained switch from the pcb and top part.....

That's what we really need, a self contained buckling spring switch.

[chimera15]

I looked at my board today, it's ultra thin, I think it'd be pretty easy to cut apart.  I noticed the pads were offset on the back, kind of strange, not sure where I would make the cut, and how I could put the switch back together again to make it work....

[ak_nala]

Another consideration with the capacitive IBM boards is the question of how sensitive they might be to any sloppiness introduced by making them into individual switches, etc.

The original PCBs are careful to screen against any cross-capacitive effects by wrapping each pad and signal trace (on the backside) and then the whole board (both sides) in ground traces. So cutting it apart, making individual switches, rearranging them into a new layout, and mounting them to a new board or wiring them up might introduce some problems, capacitively speaking, that might have to be addressed.

It would definitely take some experimentation to find out - but it would be a noble experiment, indeed.

Of course, what we really need is a self-contained buckling beam switch

[chimera15]

Another consideration with the capacitive IBM boards is the question of how sensitive they might be to any sloppiness introduced by making them into individual switches, etc.

The original PCBs are careful to screen against any cross-capacitive effects by wrapping each pad and signal trace (on the backside) and then the whole board (both sides) in ground traces. So cutting it apart, making individual switches, rearranging them into a new layout, and mounting them to a new board or wiring them up might introduce some problems, capacitively speaking, that might have to be addressed.

It would definitely take some experimentation to find out - but it would be a noble experiment, indeed.

Of course, what we really need is a self-contained buckling beam switch

Well, I'd use a new controller completely, anyway, for instance the ultra mini bluetooth hack I was considering something like that.   A bluetooth buckling spring compact board really would be the ultimate.

[chimera15]

That one is easy.  If you are Japanese that is.  Look up the IBM A01.

Ah that's interesting, but pretty rare huh especially in the us?

[ch_123]

The Brother Switches in the A01 and 003 aren't self contained - they share a common membrane.Considering that the membrane is the weak link a Model M-like design, I really wonder what it was that they were trying to accomplish.

[christophocles]

Wow, awesome!  I think this guide is exactly what I need.

I have a model M that had some Dr. Pepper spilled into it..  I have tried cleaning with alcohol, soaking the entire thing in distilled water, and then drying it out, and it still acts funky.  Many of the keys seem to be shorted together (press m and get "nm", computer beeps a lot when plugged in, etc).

If I cut all the rivets off, take out the membranes and clean them, and then reassemble with this nuts/bolts mod, is there a chance that it may work again?  Or could the membranes themselves be damaged by the current from plugging it in?  Maybe the PCB is damaged, I dunno..  But if there's a chance I could save it, I may go ahead with the surgery..  What do you all think?

[nowsharing]

This is a great tutorial Ripster, very well done. Thanks for documenting it so well. I'll be taking this project up in a few months.

[ocdonkb]

very nice write-up/pictures. I'm very tempted to try this too!

[exia]

how many model M have at least one broken rivet? what % of broken rivets are needed before this mod is required?

[ak_nala]

how many model M have at least one broken rivet? what % of broken rivets are needed before this mod is required?

I would say this very much depends on where the broken rivets are and what the density of broken rivets are in a given area.

If you only have 10 broken rivets, but they are all in one corner it would be a very different problem than if the 10 were distributed randomly around the whole plate. The former would probably be non-functional in the affected corner, while the latter would likely have no problems at all.

Also, since the as-designed distribution of rivets is not even in the first place, some areas will likely be more sensitive to them being missing or damaged (stretched or cracked) than others.

[exia]

I had to block ripsters avatar image. it is not the best looking avatar. i am just telling the truth.

[M13]

First off Ripster, was that a "Hitchhiker's Guide" reference I just saw there? Also, thanks for the excellent tutorial on how to do this mod. I've done it on a few M's and got my methods down enough to test it out on my M13's for audible reasons (no broken rivets yet). There are some differences and precautions that needed to be made and taken, but all hardware and tools mentioned in the mod will still work the same.

First off, make sure you MOVE your TrackPoint cable out of the way because a couple of the rivets are going to be right below it!! Also, when drilling out the rivets, don't drill out the one that is directly below the TrackPoint. It could break it or mess up the sensitivity and cause trailing/pulling. Below is a pic of the rivet to skip. It's the one with a circle around it. The hole above the text wasn't a rivet to begin with. (I decided to use the thicker and heavier backplate from an older model M donor board lying around since the rivet holes are the same. That's why my bolts don't have exposed threads or washers.)


Also, Just wanted to point out that anyone with a M or M13 with drain channels shouldn't have any problems if there is reinforcement ribs along the middle of the keys. Below is a pic to show.


You will have problems with the bottom row of rivets though.. There's a wall that runs along the bottom of the keyboard for directing any liquid flow to the drain channels. This wall is directly above the bottom row of rivets. I actually skipped using nuts and bolts in the row completely. I don't notice any noise difference in that area vs. the rest at all. Pic below shows what I'm talking about. I actually drilled it out anyway to see if I was correct and would be able to try other methods.


All in all, the experiment was a success. My keyboard is tighter and uniform feeling and much more quiet! The only other tips I could add to my post or this thread is that the use of a drill press would be ideal to ensure your bolts are straight, otherwise, you may have a few crooked or off center ones that are tight and rub when putting the metal backplate back on. Also, if you want to make sure you can still keep the drain channel features of the keyboard, use some 1 or 5 minute epoxy, rubber cement, or paint around the screw heads as well as behind the stabilizer bar area for your spacebar and any 2x keys that may use the stabilizer bar. Oddly enough, that area is open for liquids to get in, but on the older M's without the drain channels, it's not. Design flaw or feature? You decide.

[sandy55]

Also, if you want to make sure you can still keep the drain channel features of the keyboard, use some 1 or 5 minute epoxy, rubber cement, or paint around the screw heads as well as behind the stabilizer bar area for your spacebar and any 2x keys that may use the stabilizer bar. Oddly enough, that area is open for liquids to get in, but on the older M's without the drain channels, it's not. Design flaw or feature? You decide.

If my memory serves correct, M with drain channel has just one stabilizer bar for a space bar only. Other large keys don't have a stabilizer bar. So actually you just need to seal two holes arround plastic made catchers which support the space bar stabilizer.

example;  before  and  after
Don't know why there are such holes irrespective of water proof design of the board.

[ak_nala]

Well, I started out thinking there must be a way to do this with Imperial hardware but this was the big barrier.  You have to squeeze these two plates together and yet not have anything stick out below the metal plate more than about 2mm (see the earlier pics of the indents in the case bottom).

1/4" bolts are too short and 3/8" too big...

...8mm is perfect

In looking around I see there are 5/16" 2-56 screws available (SAE equivalent of Metric M2's) - some even with a black finish right out of the box.

Just seems like SAE is a whole lot easier to get than metric here in the US, as well as being quite a bit cheaper. We're talking around $3.75 shipped per hundred on eBay for regular zinc coated steel pan head screws in this size. At 5/16" long these would be only two-and-a-half thousands of an inch shorter than an 8mm M2, so seem like they could do the trick.

[ak_nala]

Nuts are less than $2 for 500 including shipping from one seller, so might just order them first to see if they will work w/o a washer (which might screw with the allowable thickness in places if I wanted to use the original case).

[ak_nala]

According to McMaster-Carr the width of one of your M2 nuts is 4mm (I assume across the flats) - any idea what the ID of the rivet holes in the Model M backplate are?

[ak_nala]

Actually, looking things up it appears that #2-56 screw and nut diameters are a couple hundredths of an inch larger than the metric M2s you used (yet use the same drill bit sizes for drilling and tapping), so theoretically we should be good to go regardless.

All parts ordered on eBay for less than $6 total shipped (zinc plated - 100 screws and 500 nuts). I'll let you know how it goes.

[lal]

I recently repaired a M mini using bolts and nuts.  I ordered the parts from a German "model builder" shop.

• 50 x Linsenschraube Kreuzschlitz M2x8
  
• 50 x Senkschraube M2x8 for the front row
  
• 50 x Unterlegscheibe 2,2mm
  
• 50 x Flache Sechskantmutter M2
  
• Bohrer 1,6mm
  

Might not be the cheapest shop but they had everything I needed in one place.  I removed the few left rivets with diagonal pliers and drilled 1,6mm holes which is enough to screw the bolts in and hold them in place.  For the M mini one 50 piece bag of everything would have been enough, don't know but you probably need more than 50 Linsenschrauben for a full-size M.

[lal]

Achja, und man kann per Bankeinzug zahlen.  Schnelle Lieferung.  Funzt hervorragend

[brkz]

I did this mod to fix up an 139120, however I used screws instead of nuts and bolts. 2.9x6.5mm screws and a 2mm drill bit worked great. The screws will very slightly protrude but will not interfere with operation at all.

Ended up having to take the board apart again twice but it only takes 5 minutes to remove the screws because you don't need to turn it over.

The first two times I had a few keys that either failed to register as the spring buckled (but would do so when key was pressed further) or that would register twice. The problem was (cat) hair caught between the membranes. I found wiping the membranes down with a damp cloth worked well. Hold them up against the light to check for hairs before reassembling. Keep cat well away...

[Xuan]

58 for a fullsize.

Acht und funfzig.  (I'd put the umlaut in but I'm lazy)

I think it's fünfzig und acht.
No clue of german but I learned that fünf means five (Slaughterhouse five, great book and movie)

[mrbill]

Has anyone ever tried putting Dynamat, sorbothane, or a similar product either all over the back of the metal plate in a Model M, or at least at all of the contact points between the plate and the case bottom?

[itlnstln]

I've thought about it, but never tried it. You can get a Dynamat-like material from Home Depot called Protecto-Wrap. You can find it in the roofing section. It comes in a 8" high roll. I used to use it in car stereo installations with great results.

[itlnstln]

I agree.  Any time I would work with Protecto-Wrap, I would make sure that the installation was permanent and I would always precut and even do "mosiac" work to ensure things I needed to get to later (nuts, bolts, etc.) were easily accessible.  The thing to remember is that the goal is to increase mass, not completely cover the plate, per se.  Personally, I would work in small chunks, leaving easy access to the rivets in case they need repair.  The better option is to do the nut/bolt mod, then do the Protecto-Wrap so the rivets are no longer a problem.

[itlnstln]

Done well, you should still have easy access to the nuts/bolts.  A good box cutter, or even scissors, makes Protecto-Wrap a breeze to work with.

[skcheng]

Getting ready to do this mod.   I'll probably use a high speed handpiece to drill through the rivets.  

Is any Loctite recommended on the nuts?   For example, do the nuts have a way of working themselves loose since only a few threads are engaged??

Any other words of advice to make this mod less painful??    Now I see that some of the cases are black and some are beige.  Do they make beige Rustoleum??   And how visible are the screw heads if not painted to match??  I'm looking btwn the keys on my IBM Mini and I've having a hard time picturing how the screws would be visible through the gaps btwn the keycaps?

[brkz]

I found it helps a lot to use a file to really smooth down the old studs, otherwise your drill bit will tend to veer away from the middle.

Make sure to support the plastic or it will bounce away and/or crack. I used an old towel folded up a few times.

I used screws which I imagine is a lot less fiddely since you only need to work on one side of the board. 2.9x6mm, pre-drill 2mm (no need to go all the way thru)

[skcheng]

Alright....finished up with work.   Anyone else working Fri/Sat this week??  Or am I the only loser???

So I'm not a cheapie like Ripster and I spring the extra 5c for stainless screws from McMaster-Carr.   Nuts and washers ordered at the same time.   Much cheaper than my local True Value which charges .25c for each screw.  What a rip-off and they wonder why the internet biz is booming???   Actually, they simply didn't have what I needed and I'm good at following rules.   What Rips sez, I do  :-)))

I tried drilling ONE hole with the drill bit and my lab handpiece  (sort of like a high end $1500 dremel) and I'm like, "forget this".   This sucks.  So I whip out my torque controlled electric hand piece and a couple of diamonds with the same diameter as the Rip recommended drill bit and I start working.  With water spray, I make a big mess, but no shavings to clean up and zero issues centering the holes.   Looks like this:



Better to have steady fingers than steady hands.   About 15-20 minutes later, I'm drilled but not filled.   I shaved down the studs just so that they would be even.   I'm just OCD that way.  

Next up was driving the bolts in and STOOPID me decided to do this on my lap while watching my son play Call of Duty on his Xbox.   Big mistake.   I ended up cracking the frame by leaning on it too hard.   For me, this was the most time consuming portion of the mod.   Good thing I was doing the nuts/bolts mod, but having a cracked frame turned out to be a bit of a headache as we shall see.  

As Ripster described (and I obviously ignored), PLEASE pay attention to the order in which the sheets and rubber pad go.   More on that later.  

My metal plate was pretty scratched up from the sloppy chisel work, so I bead blasted the entire plate.   Much nicer looking!!!  I considered priming and painting the plate, but then common sense took over and I wisely decided NOT to.   No one will ever see the plate.   But bead blasted and CLEAN made me happy.

My next mistake was simply dumping all of the hammers/springs onto a large plate.   Somehow, some of the springs got tangled and it caused me fits.   Luckily I was able to slowly work the suckers apart.   But not before I had a call in to Chucky at Unicomp to confirm that he had hammers/springs for sale!!  

Next problem was my busted frame.   Made it tough to keep the hammers lined up.  When the frame would buckle, the hammers would move.   I had to start over 2x for this reason.  

Okay, so once again ignoring Rip's fine recommendations, I put the entire thing back together, plug it in and  ........ nothing??!!??   I'm thinking STOOPID blue cube PS/2 adapter.  So I try another computer.......nothing again?   Turns out that I had the sheets put back in the wrong order.   DOOOOHHH.   So now all of the nuts come off and I reset everything to try again.   This time I place about 4 nuts back on to confirm that I have it right LOLOL.    And I tried the bolts on tight and tighter.   Don't quote me on this, but I like it TIGHT.   With the bolts tight, typing is a reassuring confident experience with what feels like immediate actuation.    Click becomes a clunk and it sure feels nice!!   The sound is muffled and the feel is much less squirrel-ly.   I picture that spring wobbling around before it hits the membrane which wobbles around before this mod.   Now it's a direct solid motion.  Athleticism at its best.  

To complete my homage to Rip, I paint the screws and I liquid nails and paint the crack in the frame.  And I use flat black high temp paint to accommodate my blazing fast typing speed  ;-))   And I add the screws/washers in the anterior portion of the plate.  No corners cut here.  

Some more pics:



Franken Mini:





And some glamour shots of the finished product to showcase how I'm truly a frustrated interior decorator wannabe:





Maybe it was due to the multiple broken rivets, but my Mini sounded Ping and Pingier.   Now it sounds the same from keystroke to keystroke.  

Big shout out to my man Rip for posting the equivalent of a "Keyboard Mods for Dummies" thread.  I wish I actually read all of it, but I'm just "slow" that way.  

Anyway, I hope everyone is inspired now to pick up some 4mm nuts and 8mm bolts.   Get drilling.......it's really worth it.  

Maybe I could convince Chucky at Unicomp to do this for me.  I'll pay $40 instead of the usual $30 LOL.  

skc

[Nonmouse]

Why not use a drill press to drill out the studs with good alignment?  It seems so... obvious...

[bigpook]

I think I am cheaper. I used a blank PCI slot as the chisel which is less than ideal.
I had to cut and sand down the plastic detritus that was left over, which isn't so hard, just takes more time.
Having a drill press would be sweet, but I don't have a drill press. I used an awl to set the point for drilling. This worked well.

Once I get the hardware, I will put it all back together and see if it works. If not. I will pay closer attention to Ripsters instructions : )

I will post pics of the gerber, pci blank and keyboard if I have success, otherwise, I will
skulk away silently. And all you will hear is "RTFM, man, RTFM".

[skcheng]

Why not use a drill press to drill out the studs with good alignment?  It seems so... obvious...

I'm guessing that a drill press would work just fine.   But the frame is curved and visibility is tough.  If you're off just a few mm with your angle, you'll need to either drill a bigger slot in the metal frame, or leave the bolt out.  I was slightly off on my angle on one or two of the bolts and they rubbed the metal frame a bit while I was putting everything back together.  

The 2nd one I do will be MUCH easier.  And I can see why Rip didn't want to shave down the studs.   Makes it a little harder to center if you do.

skc

[didjamatic]

Has anyone tried metal pop rivets?

[brkz]

I'd advise against pop rivets as well. Too much force and it's entirely likely you will need to take everything apart again at some point (or in my case, 4 times in a row). A single cat hair on the membranes is enough to give problems like keys registering twice or needing excessive force to register. If done right, the key will actuate (make electrical contact) exactly when the spring buckles.

[bigpook]

Well, I got it back together and it actually works. It doesn't feel much different but than again, I was using a relatively new unicomp spacesaver that didn't have any popped plastic rivets.
Ripsters guide is key and a great resource if you go this route.

I used a PCI blank as the chisel and a Gerber multi tool as a hammer. Don't laugh, it worked. It made a bit more work though as I had to nibble the plastic down and use some sandpaper to smooth it out. In the end, that part really wasn't so bad. Drilling the holes was tedious, but I marked a pilot with an awl to set the bit. So far it is going good.

The hardest part for me was the fricking spring/hammers. It doesn't take much to upset them and I had to take the board apart after finding three keys that didn't click.
The second time around went better but you REALLY have to be careful to keep the plates together as you get the first few screws in. If you let the plates seperate, even slightly, you run the risk of the spring/hammer getting misaligned. It really sucks to have to take out all the screws....


Aside from that it went well and is a good mod to do. I think others have said it before where the plastic rivets are the weakest link for the Model M. Using metal hardware eliminates that weakness, totally.

[bigpook]

: ) I would think such a large chisel would make short work of a recalcitrant plastic rivet.

I did the same thing with the board upside down, there is no other way to do it. The membrane and sheets and back plate all lined up properly, but until you get a half dozen or so screws in any bump can/will move the spring/hammers.

[bigpook]

I need to type on it some more. I have a unicomp customizer that I can compare it too. But to be fair, there were no rivets broken on the spacesaver. Doing the mod was more of an exercise to see if I could do it, the keyboard didn't really need it.

Having said that, it might be interesting to play with tightness of the nuts (no pun intended) I would think tighter nuts would make the keys heavier and looser nuts would make the keys lighter.

[skcheng]

Interesting that you feel no difference.   In my case, the board felt more solid, the typing more damped and overall feel much more even.  I did have 13 broken rivets before I modified my my Mini.  Before this mod, I would compare the Mini to an old basketball court with uneven bounces.  Especialy on the right side by the enter key and the numpad.  Now it's much tighter.  I did screw each nut down fairly tightly  I probably have about 3 threads exposed across the entire board.  

The only reason I had a tough time with the springs/hammers was due to the crack in my frame.  If the crack buckled, I would need to disassemble the keyboard and start again.  

Congrats on getting it done.   The next one will be much easier.  

skc

[ricercar]

YAAAAAARRRGGGHHHH!

On fifth try with same board. four hammers out of place. I hate this mod.

[msiegel]

steady now, you can do it!

then never remove the bolts again

[skcheng]

YAAAAAARRRGGGHHHH!

On fifth try with same board. four hammers out of place. I hate this mod.

Why are the hammers out of place??  Once the sheets and rubber pad go on, it sort of holds everything in place??   Make sure nothing touches the springs as you're reassembling the frame.

[bigpook]

I had to redo mine three times...

Once you place the hammers, than the membrane and finally the sheets and the back plate. You cannot move, budge, fumble the assembly at all. I kid you not.

I took ripsters advice and got the nuts around the outside first, then a half dozen or so in the middle.  Only then did I feel comfortable moving it around.

Nothing blows more than having to take the whole damn thing apart to fix a couple of mis-aligned hammers.

[bigpook]

Interesting that you feel no difference.   In my case, the board felt more solid, the typing more damped and overall feel much more even.  I did have 13 broken rivets before I modified my my Mini.  Before this mod, I would compare the Mini to an old basketball court with uneven bounces.  Especialy on the right side by the enter key and the numpad.  Now it's much tighter.  I did screw each nut down fairly tightly  I probably have about 3 threads exposed across the entire board.  

The only reason I had a tough time with the springs/hammers was due to the crack in my frame.  If the crack buckled, I would need to disassemble the keyboard and start again.  

Congrats on getting it done.   The next one will be much easier.  

skc

Right, but how many broken rivets did you start with? None of mine were broken. About the only thing I can think of to play with would be to tighten/loosen the nuts to see how it effects behaviour.

[ricercar]

This is fascinating. My rubber sheet was next to the metal on two out of two of my model M keyboards I've disassembled. I've RTFM again today and the assembly clearly shows the rubber against the hammers. I imagine this helps keep the dang hammers in place.

> I had a tough time with the springs/hammers was due to the crack in my frame.
> If the crack buckled, I would need to disassemble the keyboard and start again.

Yeah. This is my problem.

[bigpook]

So the hammers were directly against the plastic sheet? wow.

[ricercar]

So the hammers were directly against the plastic sheet? wow.

No wonder they won't stay in place, eh? Talk about zero friction...

I'm actually thinking that my notes are more likely to be incorrect than the boards are to have the rubber against the metal. I took the two keyboards apart the same night about a year ago. One with anger. One with tools. That's why i had so many caps to give away when I joined Geekhack.

[bigpook]

No wonder they won't stay in place, eh? Talk about zero friction...

Sorry man, but I have to laugh. It's not like its 'easy' with the membrane holding the hammers down(better I suppose), but the plastic?  : ) I can only imagine the frustration.
I found just nudging the frame could cause at least one of the hammers to get misaligned...
the end result is worth it though.

[bigpook]

ricercar, forgot to ask. When you had the hammers up against the sheet and the membrane on the bottom; did it even work?

Just wondering if the hammer hitting the plastic sheet would register a key stroke.

[bigpook]

On another note, I switched back to my other unicomp space saver with the original rivets. After using the 'modded' one for a week or so I can say that the unmodded space saver feels tighter and seems to require a bit more push to get the key to go.

The modded space saver feels a bit lighter overall. I need to take the covers off and look at the nuts and see how much thread is showing.

If anything, the modded keyboard may be somewhat 'adjustable'. I will know more when I tighten/loosen the nuts.

[itlnstln]

I wonder if the modded 'board doesn't allow the plate to flex as much, thus directing more force into the switch activation instead of "bending" the plate.

[bigpook]

I wonder if the modded 'board doesn't allow the plate to flex as much, thus directing more force into the switch activation instead of "bending" the plate.

Not sure about flexing the plate.

I  think with the nuts on 'loose' the spring isn't loaded as much. Which I think would make for a springier feel.

With the nuts 'tight/tighter' the spring is loaded, making for more resistance on a key press.

I don't think the metal or plastic plate is flexing.

[bigpook]

I took it apart and tightened the screws. I was seeing two threads on most of them (give or take).
It tightens up the board like I expected. Which means to say that it feels like a traditional model m. To me anyways.

I then took it back apart, and loosened all of the inside screws, leaving the perimeter alone.
Not quite flush to the top of the screw.( This is how I did it initially too )

The keys are more lively, just short of jangly almost but not in a bad way. I like the lighter feel.
All in all, I think the difference is plus or minus a thread or so.
None of the above is exact, I am going by eye and by feel.

I have a 1391401 I want to try this out on next...

I still think the mod is non-trivial, but is worth doing as it does change the feel of the keyboard.

[ricercar]

ricercar, forgot to ask. When you had the hammers up against the sheet and the membrane on the bottom; did it even work?

I haven't hooked up the controller yet. I'll do that only after I get 100% of the keys clicking—in other words, after all the hammers are in place.

[ch_123]

On another note, I switched back to my other unicomp space saver with the original rivets. After using the 'modded' one for a week or so I can say that the unmodded space saver feels tighter and seems to require a bit more push to get the key to go.

The modded space saver feels a bit lighter overall. I need to take the covers off and look at the nuts and see how much thread is showing.

If anything, the modded keyboard may be somewhat 'adjustable'. I will know more when I tighten/loosen the nuts.

As far as I understand, the membrane has two layers to it - the bottom one is the contact, and the top one is the conductive pad. So you'd need to press down on it to get it to actuate... Simply resting the hammer on it will accomplish nothing.

[bigpook]

I had only one membrane and that was the top layer, closest to the hammers, followed by the plastic sheets. The plastic sheets rest directly against the bottom metal plate.

There is some leeway when tightening the screws. I got them as tight as 2 or so threads showing. Any more tightening would set the screw to rotate.
Currently, the nuts are just about flush with the screw, which isn't a whole lot, but I felt the difference.
I didn't count all of the screws on the unicomp space saver that I used but am thinking you could 'lighten it up' some more by judicious removal of some of the nuts.

[pfink]

EDIT:  I am adding a few pointers after doing 4 of these.   You can use this method successfully to fix a broken rivet area WITHOUT removing each and every rivet with a chisel.  On my 122Key terminal board I did a quick fix on one area with 6 broken rivets by just driving a couple of screwholes, inserting bolts and tightening.   There is a remote danger of plastic dust making it's way in between the membranes but hasn't happened to me and when examining sheets after a test I didn't see any.

I just replaced 12 missing rivets on one of my Minis using the above method. It worked out great, thanks for the instructions.

[Half-Saint]

Surely you mean "drilling a couple of screwholes"? It's either that, or my english sucks

[skcheng]

I just replaced 12 missing rivets on one of my Minis using the above method. It worked out great, thanks for the instructions.

Go for the whole board!!   I'm working on another one today.   Can you say, "no longer NIB"  

[Half-Saint]

Why would anyone do this mod on a keyboard with no missing rivets?

[skcheng]

Why would anyone do this mod on a keyboard with no missing rivets?

It's missing rivets.   And even it it wasn't, it would with some use.   Take any Model M and pick at the rivets with your fingernail and I'll bet that at least 4 or 5 rivets pop right off.

[pfink]

Surely you mean "drilling a couple of screwholes"? It's either that, or my english sucks

I can't comment on your English skills but I definitely got more out of this article than just "drilling a couple of screwholes." I wouldn't have known that it was safe to drill without completely disassembling unless I did my own experimenting, so the instructions saved me a good bit of time. Also, he provided specific nut/bolt/drill bit sizes which saved a lot of guesswork.

[kishy]

(post purpose made null by later reply)

[Half-Saint]

I can't comment on your English skills but I definitely got more out of this article than just "drilling a couple of screwholes." I wouldn't have known that it was safe to drill without completely disassembling unless I did my own experimenting, so the instructions saved me a good bit of time. Also, he provided specific nut/bolt/drill bit sizes which saved a lot of guesswork.

I wasn't commenting the article. I was only commenting the EDIT that you quoted in your previous post so I didn't deem it neccessary to quote it again.

Anyway, I was referring to the part where it says "On my 122Key terminal board I did a quick fix on one area with 6 broken rivets by just driving a couple of screwholes, inserting bolts and tightening." and was just trying to clear up the meaning of "driving a couple of screwholes" as I wasn't quite sure what he meant.

Cheers,
SainT

[pfink]

I wasn't commenting the article. I was only commenting the EDIT that you quoted in your previous post so I didn't deem it neccessary to quote it again.

Anyway, I was referring to the part where it says "On my 122Key terminal board I did a quick fix on one area with 6 broken rivets by just driving a couple of screwholes, inserting bolts and tightening." and was just trying to clear up the meaning of "driving a couple of screwholes" as I wasn't quite sure what he meant.

Ah, gotcha.

[Half-Saint]

Alrighty. So, my original question still stands: driving = drilling; in this case?

[ricercar]

And now that BigPook has done it (even if he didn't read the instructions fully :biggrin1:) I can safely say ANYONE can do it.

Don't get ahead of yourself. The jury is still out on my rivet repair.

[J888www]

I did a mini and I'm short-sighted, some might say "half-blind" :pray2:

[Stevie Wonder]

Don't get ahead of yourself. The jury is still out on my rivet repair.

Yo, Ricer (you asian or sumpthin)!  This one's easy.  Helen Keller can do it an she dead.  Sheeeeet.

[ricercar]

Yo, Ricer (you asian or sumpthin)!  This one's easy.  Helen Keller can do it an she dead.  Sheeeeet.

Yo

• A ricercar is classical music; nothing to do with pimped asian automobiles.
• Rivet repair ain't 'easy' when the plastic's cracked.
• Helen Keller couldn't do it even when she was alive. Neither could Stevie Wonder, and he's only mostly dead.

[kishy]

If only the real Stevie Wonder could see this thread.

[ricercar]

"If only you could see what I've seen with your eyes."
- Roy Batty, Bladerunner

>

[bigpook]

You're welcome.

And now that BigPook has done it (even if he didn't read the instructions fully :biggrin1:) I can safely say ANYONE can do it.

: ) I can be pretty bad when it comes to reading instructions. You posted some good pics, once I saw the chisel, I figured any relatively sharp, flat piece of metal would do.
And it did : ) though not as nicely as a real chisel.
I have the nuts backed out a bit, which gives the keys a little lighter feel. I may have to use a little dab of loc-tight as one of them has already come undone.

[bigpook]

Alrighty. So, my original question still stands: driving = drilling; in this case?

In my neck of the woods it does...

[ch_123]

How did you remove the springs without opening the assembly? I tried tweezers but wasn't that successful.

[skcheng]

How did you remove the springs without opening the assembly? I tried tweezers but wasn't that successful.

Taking off the springs is easy.   Practice on one in your hands.   Grab spring with needle nose pliers and yank.  It will come off.   Putting a new spring back on is a little more tedious.   But not as tedious as a full nuts/bolts mod.

[skcheng]

Okay.  Do as Rip says.  I've only tried it on a spring/hammer assembly in my hands.   And only cuz I was bored.....

[ch_123]

So, when you remove the spring you turn counterclockwise, and when you reinsert, you also turn counterclockwise?

Im not having much luck with it

[ch_123]

Tried that. It doesn't seem to be screwing on to the stem on the hammer at all...

[Half-Saint]

ChopstickOdeath is your friend.

Show Image

Why not just use a toothpick? :D

[ch_123]

I found it was easy enough to remove the spring with my fingers.

[bigpook]

Thought I would post my observations. I got a '92 model m space saver from xsphat a month or so ago and did the nut/bolt mod on it. It was NIB but had like 19 broken rivets, still felt great to type on though but went ahead and did the mod anyway.
However, instead of using the original spring/hammers I got a new set from Unicomp, thinking they would be lighter. The short answer is no, they are not lighter. I have no idea why the Unicomp generally feels a bit lighter than the IBM's. Its a mystery to me.

I then did the nut/bolt mod on a Unicomp spacesaver that I have and didn't hork the nuts down all the way. It seemed to lighten the feel a bit, especially when compared to the IBM.

I then got another Unicomp space saver but didn't do the mod.

So from harder to lighter its the IBM, than the unmodded Unicomp, than the modded Unicomp.

The modded Unicomp is noticeably lighter in feel, even compared to the umodded Unicomp.

I like all three though, the feel and noise are just about perfect for me.

[jpc]

I made some mistakes while bolt-modding.

Mistake #1:

Drill a bit off-center so that some of the studs are mangled. Leave the mangled studs in place. Now the barrel plate and backplate will be further apart than on a stock model M.

Mistake #2:

Overreact to mistake #1, and sand the studs down completely. In Ripster's photo here, the stud is the round bit, and below the stud is an oval-shaped raised structure:



To make this mistake, sand off the oval-shape. Now the barrel plate and backplate will be closer together than in a stock model M.

Mistake #1 will give you a low activation point.

Mistake #2 will give you a spring that is extra compressed when the key is at rest. The weight required to budge the key is 60g on a board with this mistake vs. about 45g on a stock model M. This feels "crunchy" -- the transition from no movement to buckling is quick. It feels similar to crunchy Type II "XM" Alps which have a real corn flake in every keystroke.

[jpc]

I got a fresh barrel plate and drilled the studs the right way. This time I was careful to retain the oval-shaped structure around the stud. See previous post. That structure is critical to having proper key feel. And the result feels perfect

The process that worked is:
   * Try to chisel cleanly, but it's OK if you don't make a clean cut every time.
   * Sand any studs that don't have a nice flat top, as well as any stud with a smushed "anvil top" that is wider than the stud itself.

You want to see:
   * No anvil tops
   * A smooth flat surface atop each stud
   * The height of the studs is not significant. The heights need not match.
   * The oval-shaped raised structure surrounding the stud should be completely intact!

Then you're ready to drill. Flat tops on the studs will make it easy to drill into the center of each one.

[Daniel Beaver]

I'm having a lot of difficulty getting a centered hole on these things. Might have to track down a drill press. How are you guys starting your drill holes?

[jpc]

I'm having a lot of difficulty getting a centered hole on these things. Might have to track down a drill press. How are you guys starting your drill holes?

I use a Dremel. I had to buy a Dremel chuck to hold the drill bit. (It's a shame my Dremel did not come with a chuck, because the chuck is awesome. It's easy to use and can hold most of the Dremel accessories. And drill bits.)

The drill bit was from an 8 year old set, but the 1/16" bit saw no action prior to bolt-modding, so I guess that is a new drill bit like ripster suggests.

Sanding the top of the stud to make it flat helps.

You might be able to tap a depression into the middle of the studs, to guide the drill bit? I have not tried this.

[jpc]

Not that there's anything wrong with using a drill press. That should work great too.

Searching for "drill press" on amazon results in a page of "boring machines." That's what normal people think keyboards are.

[Daniel Beaver]

I'll try a chuck for my dremel. I was using my single-speed drill to make the holes.

[jpc]

Sharpen Your Chisel!

I could only get a clean cut with a brand new chisel about 2/3 of the time. This might depend on the condition of the rivets. Or I might be a klutz.

Sanding the studs flat afterward? 100% success rate. Big fan.

If you can do better with the chisel, you can sand less and vice versa. Any combination can lead to a good result.

But if you sand, don't sand too far down...

[jpc]

I began a bolt mod wiki HOWTO

It is ripster's original recipe, plus it details specific mistakes and how to avoid them or remedy them. I made all these mistakes over the course of bolt modding five boards, so the next guy doesn't have to.

It's a wiki so everyone can add wisdom in the forms of Do's and Do Not's.

[bigpook]

I use a small scratch-all to set an indentation for the bit.

[jpc]

I use a small scratch-all to set an indentation for the bit.

What's a scratch-all?

Hmmm, setting an indentation on a sanded-flat stud top? That's WAY too easy. It removes all element of manual-dexterity-meets-entropy from the process! When I was a lad, bolt modding built character...

Seriously is there a pic of a scratch all to edit into the wiki?

[jpc]

I got mushroom heads and anvil heads on all five boards. For the first board, the chisel was brand new, and for the most recent (today) I sharpened it pretty good.

My best guess is that the rivet head is melted in place, and sometimes it partly melts into the opening in the backplate. So even a perfectly straight horizontal cut can leave an anvil head.

But that doesn't explain why you aren't seeing them also. Who the hell knows?

[jpc]

@ripster - there's now language on the wiki about how if you chisel well enough, the prep stage is not needed as much.

@bigpook - there's a description of the scratch-awl technique on the wiki. Thanks!

[bigpook]

My bad, it is a scratch awl.
awls

[J888www]

Show Image

That's what I would call dedication (to his M), as that tool is connected to to a larger part (not portable), just imagine entering the dentist surgery room to find SKCheng drill his M.

[Daniel Beaver]

I'm fed up with this mod - I've ruined another Silver label Model M. I just find it impossible to drill those holes straight, and my drill bit ends up destroying the base where the hammers sit. I don't know how you guys do it.

[jpc]

impossible to drill those holes straight.

Did you try sanding the tops of the studs flat before drilling? That's what has been working for me.

Ripster gets the stud tops to be perfectly flat with a very sharp chisel. I haven't been able to do that, though I haven't tried sharpening it with the same Japanese water stones that he uses.

Regarding the trashed barrel plates. You can use barrel plates out of worthless rubber dome Model Ms, they work with buckling springs too. I've done it. Or get these barrel plates? Heck Unicomp might even sell you new ones. The bolt pattern on modern Customizers matches the oldest Model Ms. You have some options for resuscitating those boards.

[jpc]

BTW Ripster I can confirm that my chisel is not that sharp. About 20% of its cutting edge is cratered, something took a bite out of it, and now it's gnarled. Might as well use a baseball bat to knock the rivets off.

A knife sharpener is not going to fix that, I'll need a stone from somewhere.

[jpc]

Heh I've met PC slot covers that might be sharp enough

[MissileMike]

One of you pro bolt-modders should establish a service and do boltmods for a flat fee.  I'd be an interested customer for sure.

[bigpook]

The pc slot cover does work, but I did use a new chisel the next time out. The chisel does a much better job of cleanly removing the plastic.

With the tops nice an flat I used a scratch awl to set the bit. The small indentation is all you need for the bit to drill true. Patience and being relaxed is key; there are so many holes to drill that it quickly gets tedious. The plastic is old and needs to be handled carefully too. It wouldn't take much to crack it.

[jpc]

Do we know what Unicomp's $30 refurbishing service consists of?

They might redo the rivets. Plastic rivets aren't bad. They can last. My 1391401 from 1987 had all but 3 or 4 rivets. It felt great before and after its bolt mod. The only reason for modding it was to get some pictures.

[jpc]

One of you pro bolt-modders should establish a service and do boltmods for a flat fee.  I'd be an interested customer for sure.

Woah this is starting to feel like work now. My pulse just quickened.

This is my work. Me: "Look, after stumbling for a while, I can now succeed at task X, sometimes, and slowly!"  My 500 new friends: "ZOMG can you help me please!?"

Can't ever admit you know anything there.

Now if I could charge them I'd be in business baby.

[jpc]

That's simple.  They reach in the parts box, pull out a main assembly, and pop it into your case I assume reusing your controller.  Not sure about the keys.

That's a good deal then.

AFAICT there are three things that wear on an M. Keys, springs, and rivets. The bolt mod addresses one; the Unicomp fix addresses at least two.

[Daniel Beaver]

Got it working, finally. I drilled the holes while the membranes were inside, and some junk jammed up the hammers. So yeah... silver label Model M going up soon on the market place. Works really well.

Still and aggravating mod, though.

[jpc]

I'm thinking about how to reduce pinging sounds in a bolt-modded M.

Would this work?
 * Replace the 8mm bolts with 10mm bolts
 * Place tiny rubber washers between the backplate and the nut

McMaster Carr doesn't sell rubber washers small enough. They sell silicone rubber tubing with an internal diameter of 2mm. You could slice that into washers.

HA! Lego pneumatic tubing can also be sliced into rubber washers that fit closely. Then you can have a Model M built out of Legos.

[jpc]

I'll try flossing.

I thought it was the backplate making noise. It could be the springs. Flossing will find out.

[kishy]

It's come to my attention that an eBay seller has been describing this as "Kishy's bolt mod" and additionally, suggesting that cosmetic-only epoxy repairs are superior in effectiveness and longevity.

I'd like to go on the record saying that I would be very happy to be able to take credit for this mod, but I had nothing to do with it. Furthermore, in my humble opinion (based on examining objective facts and my own epoxied-by-that-seller keyboard), the epoxy treatment is purely cosmetic in nature and risks permanent membrane damage during the inevitable bolt mod (during the disassembly for which, the epoxy-glued membrane will tear). It is, therefore, my opinion that the bolt mod - even a partial one not involving replacement of all rivets - is superior in effectiveness and longevity and any type of epoxy rivet gluing will be a detriment to the life (and possibly performance) of the keyboard.

[kinkng]

If I have a model M that is only missing 5-7 rivets, can I just do the bolt mod without stripping everything apart? Can I just drill the holes in place and not damage the membranes?

[kinkng]

Ripster,

You mean the stud intact rather than the bolt? I guess I need to drill in the center of the stud and go all the way thru so that no shavings can get into the membrame (shavings should be contained within the hole that I created by drilling thru the stud).

[crowstar]

Is this a difficult mod? I mean I only have 1 ibm model m, and I REALLY don't want to muck it up, but at the same time, this mod looks great.

[crowstar]

Can you use M2.5 machine screws?
Because M2 are really hard to come by in the uk.
Are there ANY alternatives

[kidchunks]

Just wondering, is it possible to clean the rubber mat without it damaging?

[Soarer]

Because M2 are really hard to come by in the uk.

http://www.westfieldfasteners.co.uk/A2_ScrewBolt_PhilRaPan_M2.html

[crowstar]

ok.
After doing this only 1/4 of the keys work.
PLEASE HELP!

[crowstar]

worked FINE. All keys.
Basically the whole number row buckles, but feels loose and doesn't actually input ANYTHING.

[crowstar]

Check to make sure that there isn't some excess plastic "crud" on the rivets that prevent you from tightening up.

Do all bolts have about two threads exposed?

I think that is the problem, i forgot that step (fail). So I will do THAT!
(btw that thread on the 'deskthority' was just to get my post count to ten, I DIDN'T MEAN IT OFFICER!!?!?!)

[crowstar]

ok, pressing g and h results in F4? wtf is happening!?!?

[crowstar]

Did you follow the instructions for cleaning the membrane and making sure it was dust free?

mine is stuck together with some kind of glue. Kind of odd, but now ONLY the center keys work and the f4 f5 and f6 keys.

Also the connector is quite scratched up, but it has worked before so ?

[applescript]

I think I am cheaper. I used a blank PCI slot as the chisel which is less than ideal.
I had to cut and sand down the plastic detritus that was left over, which isn't so hard, just takes more time.

I used the staple remover at the end of a stapler.

[kidchunks]

Well I've finished up another bolt mod but have a little issue with the space bar. It seems to register randomly which can only lead to something wrong with the rubber mat as I tested it without it and pressing the membrane worked without issue. Anyone know if the unicomp uses the same rubber mat? If not, I'll have to wait for a broken model m on ebay and use it for parts.

[kidchunks]

Registers without you pressing it?

Sounds like a plastic sliver snuck in to me.  The rubber mats AFAIK are identical.  At least my Boscom felt like my IBMs.

I'll double check the mat again, its in pretty bad shape (water damage most likely) so it has some bubbles.

Strange, acfrazier told me chuck had no idea what he was talking about he asked for me. I guess unicomp has a different name for the mats or doesn't sell them separately.

[kidchunks]

Chuck is a short timer now.  Probably can't wait to get out the door and go shoot something in the Kentucky woods.

Like a Geekhacker.

Yea thats what I hear, guess I'll have to call up unicomp and see what I can do about getting that mat. Hopefully I get someone who was as helpful as he was.

[kidchunks]

Aw just read what I wrote earlier and forgot to include "when I press the space bar" long day at work -_-.

Anyways let me rephrase it!

When I press the space bar, sometimes I get a single fire or no fire, other times i get multiple fires with a single press.  I'm kind of puzzled as I tried changing the hammer with no success. The membrane seems to be fine (pressed it with my finger and it registers).

[jpc]

kidchunks: That could be debris between the membranes or under the hammer.
The fix can be as simple as standing the keyboard on its edge so that the membranes are vertical, and pressing the key several times. Also you could try popping the key cap and blowing into the barrel, that sometimes moves debris that's under the hammer.

[kidchunks]

Like I said earlier..........

Anybody read my posts around here.....?

Show Image

 
Chill pill rip..

Anyways, I tried the methods suggested and still no dice. I'll keep messing with it.

[NeeGo]

Once the old rivets come off, is it as good as trash? I ask because I need to replace a spring/foot assembly and to do that I need to take apart the inner components of the keyboard, but I'm not ready to do the Nut-Bolt mod to close the keyboard up.

[fohat.digs]

Thanks, guys, I have learned a lot from this forum. After wandering in the wilderness of rubber domes for more than a decade, I have come back into the Model M fold.

I have bought a half-dozen on ebay in the past year and kept the best 3. I did a bolt mod on a July 1987 white label according to Sandy's and Ripster's suggestions, and it went pretty well. The resulting difference is not as great as I expected, and there were some difficulties that were hard to overcome such as nuts stripping (possibly/probably due to cross-threading but how do you know?) and so very little adjustment room between too tight and the nut just falling off.

Drilling true was hard even with a sharp new bit, I really want to find a drill press before I try to do it again. And I shaved the anvil caps of the residual posts with an upward motion with an exacto knife, I doubt there is a better or easier way. Large 50-year-old hands and eyes make these tiny tasks much harder. The plastic is softer and more flexible than I might have expected, and I would love to slow down the drill even more.

Here is my actual question:

Since I want an absolutely top-shelf specimen of the great Model M, I have acquired a beautiful 1986 model 1390131 in great condition throughout. I used it for a while and it feels great but is extremely "pingy" sounding and loud. I assumed that was from looseness and vibrations that a bolt mod would rectify, but this morning I opened it up and found that the plastic rivets are in perfect condition. Every single one of them is tight and secure.

"If it ain't broke don't fix it" is a rule I try to observe, so I have little desire to do major surgery here unless the prospect of major improvement is there.

Ripster, you da man, according to yourself. Would I be a fool to mess with this gem, or could I really improve it?

Anybody else have an opinion or comment?

Thanks!
Harry

[fohat.digs]

Thanks. I happen to have been in the deck business for many years and the screw issue is always huge. Nothing holds like surface screws with large heads but that is exactly what customers don't want. Pre-drilling works well but is a huge pain. Those fasteners with countersunk holes with plugs have worked well for us but there is no perfect solution for attaching materials that expand and contract from burning sun to winter ice. Stainless steel is good-looking but more problematic. I know a lot of engineers and carpenters that prefer softer steels because they are so much more forgiving. Cellular PVC is without doubt the optimum decking material in my opinion, but the most expensive.

I bought my screws from McCarr and although I attempted to order all plain steel, I seem to have gotten a mix with galvanized tapping screws and nuts that are black. I can understand how tiny the threads are, and under pressure when trying to hold several layers to the inside of a curved surface, the problem usually happened in the interior rows. Since I used washers, very few threads protruded out of the nuts at all, but I was trying to keep the touch as light as possible.

In one case, I tightened a nut pretty hard and the nearest key would try to stick in the down position until I loosened it. But maybe I should give some or most of them another half turn for good measure.

All-in-all, the sound of this 1390131 is a lot like the sound of my old 83-key Model F, if the feel is a little less precise. Since I have the tiny hardware, I will keep it on hand but leave well enough alone for now. The touch of this 1390131 is very nice, I suppose that it is the sound - high, tinny, pingy, with a good deal of "sproing" that surprised me.

Thanks for the help. Harry

[ch_123]

All-in-all, the sound of this 1390131 is a lot like the sound of my old 83-key Model F, if the feel is a little less precise. Since I have the tiny hardware, I will keep it on hand but leave well enough alone for now. The touch of this 1390131 is very nice, I suppose that it is the sound - high, tinny, pingy, with a good deal of "sproing" that surprised me.

Thanks for the help. Harry

The older Model Ms have a backplate made out of a different metal to the later ones. It looks quite similar to the stuff the Model F backplates were made out of.

[fohat.digs]

I have bought and sometimes resold about half a dozen Ms, one from almost each year between 1986 and 1993, along with a couple of Fs from 1987. This Sept 1986 1390131 M has the heavier, shiny almost iridescent yellowish tinted backplate like the Fs had, the other older Ms had plates that were dark dull uniform gray and I never knew if that was intent or tarnish. I did not polish them because I wanted to leave the inside label, even when I cut a couple of holes on the bolt mod I did to the 1988. The ones from the 1990s looked fresher and cleaner but maybe they had a clear coat or something.

The resounding ringing of this one is really surprising to me. After only a few days I am growing to like it, but it is very noticeable. My wife hates wind chimes so I am just waiting for her comment on this too.

[fohat.digs]

To ask and answer several questions -

I have owned several Model Ms and perhaps one of the best of the original ones was a white label 1991 (by coincidence the first one I bought, at $45 including shipping), and then I bought a half-dozen or so more and cleaned, adjusted, and re-sold most of them on ebay for approximately what I paid for them. This left me with 3 truly top-shelf specimens to work with.

I have bolt-modded one keyboard, a 1988 model 1391401 that was excellent before, and only missing a half dozen or so rivets (10%-15% of them?) randomly spaced but more toward the middle. The first time is always a prototype, but I think that I did pretty well considering that I did it without a drill press, which seems essential for real quality. I was surprised that the ultimate difference was rather small and very subtle, considering the number of hours I invested, but I am not really disappointed. I can understand that this process could yield significant benefits in other circumstances.

This inquiry is about upgrading from the 9.3 level to the 9.7 level.

I once owned a 71xxxxx Model M with rubber domes and I promptly re-sold it and was delighted to get $20 for it. If I get another one for cheap, can I salvage interior parts that interchange, such as the "barrel plate" or whatever you call the large black or beige plastic substrate with the "smokestack" looking appendages for the springs, with an earlier 1391401  model? I know that keycaps and cords are interchangeable, and this would be yet another reason to stay in the market for mid-1990s cheapies.

My previous inquiry was about what to do with this immaculate 1390131 with a complete set of intact rivets - I have decided to stay hands-off, and not mess with it until a problem emerges. In the meantime, I am curious to tinker if the proper pieces present themselves to me.

ps - as a side note, when I log in to geekhack, I always say "remember me" but this site makes me start over from scratch every time. Is that my fault or is somebody working on it? thanks, Harry

[kywirelessguy]

I just wanted to give a couple tips for how my company has dealt with bolt modding ibm buckling spring keyboards for the past 20+ years. Sorry if I am repeating anything already mentioned, but I didn't read all 21 pages of this thread.

So first the chisel. We use an exacto knife with a wood chisel blade. This can save you the headache of sharpening your chisel. When the blade gets dull or eaten up you just replace it. We also do two runs with the chisel. The first run is to remove the metal backing. Then we also do a chisel run on the back of the plastic only to smooth out the rivets before being drilled. Sanding also works as others have mentioned. I think in recent years we have moved to a sander. It's slower, but gives more consistently flat rivets (if you don't angle the chisel right you can dig into the plastic too deep).

The second thing I wanted to recommend is a soldering iron with a fairly sharp tip. You can start a divot with the soldering iron which makes drilling a little more consistent as your drill bit isn't going to be sliding all over the place. We use it more for a repair tool when we drill a bad hole, but for those of you who are only doing one keyboard at a time and can't afford to just start over with a different keyboard then it might be worth the effort to create a divot in each rivet so there is less chance of your drill bit going wherever it wants. Keep in mind melting plastic creates toxic fumes so make sure you are in a well ventilated area. Also keep in mind melting the plastic too much will cause it to bubble up around the soldering iron tip and it will need sanded/chiseled flat again.

[fohat.digs]

Let me ask a question that may be obvious, and has been partially, but not completely, answered here.

Are "most" Model M parts interchangeable?

There are at least a dozen mentions of taking parts from later models to replace broken pieces, all the way up to using a barrel plate from a "71..." rubber dome model to fix a 1980s 1391401 bolt-mod screwup.

With one successful bolt mod under my belt (thanks again, guys!) and 3 less-than perfect Model Ms of various ages and denominations in the garage now, I want to mix-and-match a really, really nice bolt-mod M. I don't care whether it is a bastard or a Frankenstein, I just need it to feel good and be reliable. I have a nice solid 1988 plate for my base. Is there a consensus on whether things like "Enter" keys are better with the earlier wire stabilizers or later hole peg inserts?

My personal experience, mostly with 1391401s, is that the plate got thinner and they lost the wire stabilizers on the "Enter" and a few other keys about 1989, the white-label-to-blue-label transition changed the keycap style slightly around 1992, eventually to one-color caps, and with the "42..." series and Lexmark the cord got attached and the plate got even lighter and maybe even went from steel to aluminum, I don't know. The 2 Unicomps from 2001 I had were lighter and pingier with single-piece keys.

The short question and answer is: Can I pretty much mix anything that fits?

And the barrel plate seems to be the most fragile bottleneck in the process, does age or color or manufacturer make any difference there, or should I just make sure that it is not broken?

Last, I usually avoid lubricants and Armor-all type products in favor of thorough cleaning and drying. Any suggestions on that? A good lubricant that would not cause deterioration a decade later would be something to consider.

thanks again so much for your help!

[fohat.digs]

I really need to say thank you to Kentucky Wireless Guy.

Those 2 tips - the exacto blades and starting holes with a soldering iron - are magnificent!

Before my first bolt mod I looked for those blades, but went to a chisel when I could not find them quickly. Wrong. Super-sharp disposable blades are the only way to go. I have not even sanded (emery boards from my wife's nail kit are far better than sandpaper, anyway) the last 2 bolt mods at all. Cutting off the rivets wrecks the blades on the metal burrs, I think you can reasonably expect to do 2 each with 2 blades, saving the 2nd for the fine plastic-only work after the separation phase.

The soldering iron works far better than a scratch awl. Somehow I still don't think I have found a REALLY sharp 1/16" bit, and even the slowest setting on my Dremel is too fast.

Oh well, just keep plugging away. Thanks again, guy.

[kywirelessguy]

I'm glad I was able to help.

We actually use super glue on barrel plates if they are cracked. It's not ideal, but the earlier model wheelwriters are getting harder to find.

Here's a pic of the tools we use for disassembly. You'll notice our exacto has gotten pretty worn down from the repeated hammering.
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Here's our keyboard tech actually taking it apart.
[video=youtube;llLdTsIQIHo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llLdTsIQIHo[/video]

He says sometimes after he gets home he'll find rivets in his hair and in his shoes. They kind of end up everywhere.

[fohat.digs]

Now that I have about 4 Model Ms sitting in the garage, 2 completely disassembled, how can I recoup some of the money that I should not have spent in the first place?

Now that I have done it a few times, I have enough experience bolt-modding that I can do it reasonably efficiently. Still, considering price, shipping, parts, tools, ebay/paypal fees, etc, I would realistically need to net at least $80 to make much more than minimum wage if I sell the things. And at $100 I would still not be making a skilled worker's hourly rate.

What does a nice clean bolt-modded Model M usually sell for on the open market?

thanks for your help

[mbc]

[...] I would realistically need to net at least $80 to make much more than minimum wage if I sell the things. And at $100 I would still not be making a skilled worker's hourly rate.
[...]

tell me about it!

But Ripster is right. it only makes sense if you do it as a hobby/out of love

[o2dazone]

I feel empty inside

[o2dazone]

also new springs/hammers came in from Unicomp. Looks like my evening is tied up after work.

[o2dazone]

Work complete! Took much longer than I had anticipated due to a few complications, I'll outline them here so maybe others wont have the same issue.

-there is one post that you drill into that does NOT have a hole on the steel plate. It's near the right shift key. It kept me from fitting nearby nuts, and warped the barrel plate. I backed it out and everything was golden

-the nuts are relatively hard to fit if you don't strategically go from the outside in. I would do what Ripster suggests and put a nut in each corner then 3-4 down the center. Then get a single keycap and put it in each barrel and test the hammers before putting all other nuts in. This will also be a good foundation for fitting all other nuts.

 To test each switch before putting in the rest of thd nuts, i actually took a spare key and sanded the nubs that hold the key in. That way I could easily slip the key on, test it, then slip it off with my fingers

If you're finding yourself REALLY squeezing the board together to fit nuts, something is wrong. Examine the barrel plate for any warping, or make sure the steel plate is as flat as it can be. Sometimes it gets caught up on the threads of the bolt


I added some rubber grip pad inside the board to dampen the ping. Other than the mechanical sproing from the buckling spring, there's no other sound. Photos and video tomorrow

[drteming]

I recently got 2 1391401's, a 93 blue label and a 88 white label.  Did the bolt mod on both keyboards after reading through the guide and the thread.  This is a wonderful resource.  Thanks to everyone who contributed (Yes, I voted in ripster's poll).  I used the chisel tip x-acto knife to trim off the rivets, but instead of sanding down the post, I used a nail clipper to snip off the residual plastic.  For the pilot holes, I used the soldering iron--worked wonderfully.  Here's the kicker--this is the drill I used:



It a Zimmer #895 micro hand drill that I scrounged from the retired instrument cabinet from the OR.  And no, I'm not an orthopedic surgeon.

[fohat.digs]

Holy **** !

I have been lamenting the fact that there were not at least 2 settings below "Low" on my Dremel.

How is it that this tool does not "walk all over the place" when you start turning it?

I have a brand new bit for no purpose other than the precise drilling here, and still I yearn for a drill press every time.

[drteming]

The pilot hole from the soldering iron is key, so is the brand new titanium nitride coated bit.  The combination of low speed and a very sharp bit makes drilling through plastic relatively easy.  I did not apply pressure as I turned the handle, letting the weight of the instrument do the work.  I also got pretty steady hands, though.

[fohat.digs]

Sweet.

I have now done several of these, and have gotten to the point where I can get 40 of the 50 holes nearly perfect, 5 are barely OK, a couple are marginally acceptable, and a couple are blown completely.

The definition of blowing - being that the holes -work- to put bolts through, but the hole is not perfectly cylindrical and at least one of the positioning crescents is hopelessly wrecked.

As for bits, I shopped around my local hardware stores, and bought what seemed to be the best of the 3 or so choices that were readily available.

[chicken charlie]

Just completed this, pressed a few keys and it didn't seem as crisp as I would have thought.  Plugged it in, it didn't work.  Then I read the Wikis again and realized some rivet stubs surrounding the bolts were keeping the springs from making contact with the steel plate.  Derp.

[o2dazone]

Just completed this, pressed a few keys and it didn't seem as crisp as I would have thought.  Plugged it in, it didn't work.  Then I read the Wikis again and realized some rivet stubs surrounding the bolts were keeping the springs from making contact with the steel plate.  Derp.

I noticed this makes a big effect on keyfeel. If your posts are not filed down, they stick out and not only make the board terribly difficult to assemble, but they also reduce how much 'sproingyness' the springs have when you've got more space between the barrel plate and the steel plate. I know the tutorial mentions not to bother with filing those down, but if you only have a couple millimeters exposed of the bolt, you might want to consider filing it down slightly. At least file it to where it's in line with the crescents. They don't need to be lower than that.

[fohat.digs]

I would be very careful "filing to where it's in line with the crescents"

The crescents are important to spacing / alignment. I use my chisel blade X-acto (good sharp fresh blade) with both hands to "top" or "shave" them clean and flat, like a mesa, but stay up a bit higher if you can. Filing or sanding is more dangerous and inexact.

Remember, these "posts" are the remnants of the shafts of the rivets, so they actually can, and should, go into, and through, the holes in the metal plate, anyway, provided that they are cylindrical and small, with no "mushroom heads" or burrs. That is where they were all along. If they do not mate up with their original holes, your alignment is off somehow.

[o2dazone]

yeah, I say that with the idea that people not to **** the crescents up. I actually had to read that part in another DIY, as it wasn't listed in this one. I didn't have too much of an issue filing them down with the same drill I use to run holes through the posts. But I definitely wanted the steel plate to rest against the crescents when everything is tightened down, without them resting on the posts. I'm not sure if that had any effect, but a couple mushroom headed posts kept my board from feeling 100%, so I tore it all down, and brought the posts down to at least inline with the crescents, and it felt awesome.

[chicken charlie]

Thanks guys.  I chiseled and sanded some of the debris and stubs down enough to level things out and now it feels like a NIB Lexmark-made Model M I got on Ebay, just less hollow-sounding.  Great stuff.  The board I modded was a grey label bought as "refurbished" with broken springs replaced (I guess they were twisted in and out if anything) and almost all of the rivets intact but it was still significantly worse than with brand new Unicomp springs and hammers.

[fohat.digs]

My top-shelf A-#1 Model M is a 1986 1390131 with a set of 2010 Unicomp springs (thanks, Demik) and a set of keycaps from a 1991 black label that were practically new.

The bolt-modding was done with care and the barrel plate (beige, sacrilege, I know) came from the same 1991 black label because the original had developed a couple of longitudinal cracks mainly on the numpad side.

I used tapping screws, not bolts, at the front (spacebar) side because the ribs prevent nuts from seating properly.

The biggest thing that I have learned is that the bolts should be just barely snug, but not tight. I hold the socket in my fingers (no handle) and twist "finger-tight" but not really very hard (remember, I am a big strong guy).

Although these things are sturdy enough to be weapons, as most commentators are all too happy to report, any and all of these parts can flex, even a curved metal plate, and any extra stress affects key feel.

My advice, at the end of a bolt-mod, is to tighten your bolts "just barely" finger-tight, no more, and then adjust slowly from there as you feel the urge.

You have a lot of flexibility for adjustment, cleaning, and repair after a bolt-mod. Take advantage of it.

[o2dazone]

Your DIY does a great job of explaining that the posts should be flat and how it affects key feel. But it doesn't cover anything about preserving the crescents, which judging from the previous tutorial, seemed REALLY important.

[chicken charlie]

Finished a Spacesaver.  Using a scratch awl like jpc suggested in his wiki does wonders for guiding the drill bit.  It seemed stiffer than the gray label I modded (though I didn't futz most of the drilling this time) so I tried the minimum number of nuts in Ripster's wiki and the sound is slightly more pronounced and the feel is less stiff.  I'm guessing it's impossible to get it as pingy as a Lexmark Model M because of the differences in the weight of the steel plate?

[fohat.digs]

A good sharp scratch awl is good but a sharp pointed soldering iron is better. Just be sure you are wearing your reading glasses (even you 20-somethings should buy a pair) and center it well.

Using less than a full compliment of bolts might be OK if you are lazy (or only have a few bolts, but since McMaster-Carr sells them by the 100 pack, so you should always have enough to do 2), but I recommend that you spend a few more minutes and do all 50.

If you want to adjust the feel, do it by making all 50 looser, rather than some fraction of that number tighter.

And, to dispute a much earlier post, I recommend that you start bolting and tightening at the center and spiral outward, leaving the outside corners for last.

[o2dazone]

That was actually my bad, I had punched a hole and drove a bolt through where there was no hole on the steel plate. So because of this, I had a huge bulge between the steel plate and the barrel plate, making it impossible to get some nuts on the bolts without squeezing very hard, and working intricately from the outside in. When I tore it down, and did my work better a second time, and didn't have that bolt there, it came together just fine. I actually just started left and went across the board. Is there a preferred method?

[o2dazone]

Now I have (well..had) an original Model M in pretty decent condition. Was missing about 10 rivets. It had a very sproingy and clean feel to it. When I bolt modded my SSK, and put in brand new springs/hammers from Unicomp, it didn't feel quite like the original. I thought the bolt was supposed to bring it back to that original feel. Or is that feeling a one time thing for these keyboards, and once you tear them down, you never get that feeling back? I know that the weight of Unicomp springs/hammers should be SLIGHTLY less than original parts, but it's not just the weight, but the key feel feeling different. When I bolt modded my second Model M, the key feel was retained. I'm wondering if I just did a cleaner bolt mod on the second one, or if Unicomp does have a drastically different feeling key feel swapping their new parts into old keyboards.

[chicken charlie]

That's one conundrumel.  I only have a new Lexmark as a benchmark and no matter how many bolts I loosened or left off I couldn't get the feel and sound exactly the same on a grey label.  I thought that was because of the guts (steel plate differences) but it sounds like there's lots of variables that go into this mod.  I put Unicomp parts into a fullsize and spacesaver and they're just about similar for what it's worth, and I futzed the fullsize with lots of delirium tremens drilling.

[kywirelessguy]

Tad late, but this combination achieves the same thing as the Dremel but at much lower speeds.

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This Hitachi cordless screwdriver also has a torque setting, so if you use screws in your mod there is no risk of over-tightening.

The torque setting could help with the bolt version too if you had the right size nut driver.

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[kywirelessguy]

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$44.00

I bet you could build a DIY version on the cheap.

[kywirelessguy]

I have about 1,000 wheelwriter barrel plates so even if I Michael J. Fox one or two I'll be ok.

If only they were compatible with model M's...