MX Black, 65g, 62g Spring Swap Review

[CPTBadAss]

Linear switches and Clears. I think that stock Blues are the lightest I'll go and 55g are lighter than that so I didn't bother testing them.

[Photoelectric]

Some people do 55g ergo-Clears, which need to be properly lubricated, as that light of a spring can result in some sticky switches.  They feel sort of like Browns, with a more pronounced bump.

[CPTBadAss]

Some people might call 55g Clears....Kirkle Clears.

[Photoelectric]

Simple Question Simple Answer: what / who is this Kirkle that I keep seeing mentioned!

[CPTBadAss]

what / who is this Kirkle that I keep seeing mentioned!

Some say he was supposed to bring balance to GeekHack by liberating us from the Clack greed menace. Others say he is the prophet of the #DongSquad. I've heard rumors that he single-handedly invented the 55g ergo-clear switch. We who know simply call him Kirkle.

[nubbinator]

Some say he was supposed to bring balance to GeekHack by liberating us from the Clack greed menace. Others say he is the prophet of the #DongSquad. I've heard rumors that he single-handedly invented the 55g ergo-clear switch. We who know simply call him Kirkle.

[oTurtlez]

Some say he was supposed to bring balance to GeekHack by liberating us from the Clack greed menace. Others say he is the prophet of the #DongSquad. All we know is 'es called the Kirkle!

Show Image

FTFY ;)

[turtle]

Lol you guys are too funny. Planning to use 62g for clears on my poker or qfr. Maybe ill try to use it on browns? If I have time to take desolder a ducky full keyboard T__T

So blues with 55g is no good?

[CPTBadAss]

I didn't even bother trying. 55g is way too light for me.

Edit: I'm pretty sure the ergo-clear board I tried at the Chicago meet earlier this year had 55g springs in it. Definitely not for me.

[oTurtlez]

So I got my springs in today.

55g which is what I had was a bit too light and had a noisy bottom out sound.

62g is what I'm currently using. They felt great and had a quieter click and thock compared to the 55s.

65g was a bit much and didn't sound different IMO. Quite a bit more force compared to 62g than you'd think. Using it as spacebar.

I left my mods and other keys 55g, alphas 62g, and spacebar 65g. Happy with it

[CPTBadAss]

Your 55g mods don't stick? That was my biggest complaint. And what switches are you using?

[oTurtlez]

Your 55g mods don't stick? That was my biggest complaint. And what switches are you using?

55g mods are fine. Two mods stick but that's a stabilizer issue. And I'm using whites.

[TimIsABat]

Went and did a 62g mod on my Poker X for ergoclears, and they feel amazing! Might lube these, but couldn't agree with you more CPT

[Larken]

55g clears on mods are going to feel sticky lubed or unlubed, even if it doesn't technically stay down. The problem is not with the switch, but the way the switch is used.

As someone who loves his 55g ergo clears, even I don't use them for modifier keys.  55g (if one doesn't mind the lightness of the switch) is meant to be struck, with a quick jab, rather than being held down, then slowly released. The former would be the alphakeys, and the latter, modifiers, arrow keys etc. I'm gonna have to say that after being on 55g for a long time, having built a second 62g variant of ergodox, I couldn't stand how heavy the switch was, and the tactility felt so muddy in comparison to 55gs. I'm sure I can acclimatize to it if I used it for a while, but I have no urge to do so. It's all about preference.

But since we're already on the topic of modded keyboards, hardly far fetched or hard to simply leave alphakeys as ergoclears and swap in browns for modifiers instead. It's how I have my ergodox set up.

I never had a single 55g clear stick, even without lubrication. A little jammy, sure. But none ever failed.

[CPTBadAss]

I've had ergo-clear mods depressed and then stay depressed. They also felt very muddy. I was extremely turned off, not my favorite typing experience at all.

[Dubsgalore]

re-reading this, i really need to get my hands on some springs to try...need to find my sweetspot really soon

[oTurtlez]

re-reading this, i really need to get my hands on some springs to try...need to find my sweetspot really soon

It was 23 bucks shipped to RI for a bag of 65g and a back of 62g from Originative. I reckon he could fit another 4 bags at least of springs in the little bubble mailer he used. At $8 a bag and $7 shipping for the whole order, you can try every spring he has for less than $50 and see what you like most.

As for opening the switches without a set of Beast's tools, I perfected a little method and managed to get all the tops off of my alpha switches and then some within 5 minutes. I have a miniature multi-tool (Gerber Clutch) with the perfect sized little flathead screwdriver on it and all I did was pop one side up, slip a small alan wrench into that switch, and then pop up the other side. Works like a charm I might change my mods to 65g just for the hell of it, but for now the 55g's are nice.

[turtle]

You can use micro binder clips to remove switch too also.

[nubbinator]

You can use micro binder clips to remove switch too also.

That's my preferred method.

[oTurtlez]

You can use micro binder clips to remove switch too also.

That's my preferred method.

I tried bending them and I failed miserably, couldn't get the angles right, so I gave up and perfected my own method Even made a tutorial video on how to remove switch tops and replace springs for those whom have the capable plate.

[SpAmRaY]

You can use micro binder clips to remove switch too also.

That's my preferred method.

I tried bending them and I failed miserably, couldn't get the angles right, so I gave up and perfected my own method Even made a tutorial video on how to remove switch tops and replace springs for those whom have the capable plate.

Link?

[oTurtlez]

You can use micro binder clips to remove switch too also.

That's my preferred method.

I tried bending them and I failed miserably, couldn't get the angles right, so I gave up and perfected my own method Even made a tutorial video on how to remove switch tops and replace springs for those whom have the capable plate.

Link?

I'll post it when I get home. Probably some misinformation in it, was a late night recording. Just look me up on YouTube, same username.

[ninjadoc]

How much of a "tactile bump" would I get with a Panda switch using the 65g or 67 g Korean spring. I like the heavier switch like the MX Black on my Poker but it is just a little too stiff. I could just use the black stem to get the linear feel but I'm wondering how the "bump" will feel.

[CPTBadAss]

It's not as nice as the MX Black spring IMO. I believe that the MX Black spring preserves the exact feel of an MX White with a lighter force. The 65g spring felt very odd and I didn't care for it. 67g I don't have and never tried.

[ninjadoc]

It's not as nice as the MX Black spring IMO. I believe that the MX Black spring preserves the exact feel of an MX White with a lighter force. The 65g spring felt very odd and I didn't care for it. 67g I don't have and never tried.

Did you try the 62g spring? Was that the one you said felt "mushy"?

[CPTBadAss]

It's not as nice as the MX Black spring IMO. I believe that the MX Black spring preserves the exact feel of an MX White with a lighter force. The 65g spring felt very odd and I didn't care for it. 67g I don't have and never tried.

Did you try the 62g spring? Was that the one you said felt "mushy"?

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=44749.0#post_N

[listokei]

great review!
I like 55~65g 

[kenmai9]

what do you mean when you say "sticky" in regard to the clear switches? i'm trying to understand what sticky means when people use it about clears, but i am not quite sure what they mean? i don't feel it. i'm using a mixture of light/vintage black springs with clears. i'm wondering if i should try 65g or 62g.. or both. thanks

[CPTBadAss]

When you depress the switches, they dont immediately bounce back. They stick and are sluggish to return to the non-actuated position.

[TheSoulhunter]

what do you mean when you say "sticky" in regard to the clear switches? i'm trying to understand what sticky means when people use it about clears, but i am not quite sure what they mean? i don't feel it. i'm using a mixture of light/vintage black springs with clears. i'm wondering if i should try 65g or 62g.. or both. thanks

In addition to what CPTBA said...
It's when the spring's force is barely enough to overcome the tactile bump when releasing the key-press,
thus the slider will kinda slow down (or stick) at that point until it jumps/slips over the bump, the movement will be less fluid.
I think a good analogy is driving ya car over speed bumps at unchanged speed (clears) or slowing down a lot before (ergo clears).

[TheSoulhunter]

what do you mean when you say "sticky" in regard to the clear switches? i'm trying to understand what sticky means when people use it about clears, but i am not quite sure what they mean? i don't feel it. i'm using a mixture of light/vintage black springs with clears. i'm wondering if i should try 65g or 62g.. or both. thanks

In addition to what CPTBA said...
It's when the spring's force is barely enough to overcome the tactile bump when releasing the key-press,
thus the slider will kinda slow down (or stick) at that point until it jumps/slips over the bump, the movement will be less fluid.
I think a good analogy is driving ya car over speed bumps at unchanged speed (clears) or slowing down a lot before (ergo clears).

In addition to what I wrote...
The appeal of ergo clears seems to be to raise the difference between spring-force and the tactile-bump's resistance (bringing em further apart),
because this way the bump is felt much more striking/noticeable, but the trick is not raising the difference too much (handpicking springs or lubing helps here).

[kenmai9]

what do you mean when you say "sticky" in regard to the clear switches? i'm trying to understand what sticky means when people use it about clears, but i am not quite sure what they mean? i don't feel it. i'm using a mixture of light/vintage black springs with clears. i'm wondering if i should try 65g or 62g.. or both. thanks

In addition to what CPTBA said...
It's when the spring's force is barely enough to overcome the tactile bump when releasing the key-press,
thus the slider will kinda slow down (or stick) at that point until it jumps/slips over the bump, the movement will be less fluid.
I think a good analogy is driving ya car over speed bumps at unchanged speed (clears) or slowing down a lot before (ergo clears).

In addition to what I wrote...
The appeal of ergo clears seems to be to raise the difference between spring-force and the tactile-bump's resistance (bringing em further apart),
because this way the bump is felt much more striking/noticeable, but the trick is not raising the difference too much (handpicking springs or lubing helps here).

thanks for the input CPT and thesoulhunter. so in your opinion, what spring is the best to raise the difference between the spring force and the tactile-bump's resistance?

[CPTBadAss]

I wouldn't do anything lower than Panda Clears (MX Black Springs and Clear Stems). I like heavier switches and felt that anything below that was meh. 62g was bearable, 65g and anything lighter aren't for me.

[Photoelectric]

According to recent spring force comparison graphs, it seems that MX Black springs would make Clears heavier to actuation point and slightly lighter than stock Clears afterwards.  I actually like lighter actuation of stock Clears and cushiony bottoming out (i.e. I don't bottom out on them).  I know to each their own, but I feel like in the end Clear springs are better, given this graph.  And Black springs appear to make Clears overall heavier.

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=46449.msg981041#msg981041

[TheSoulhunter]

what do you mean when you say "sticky" in regard to the clear switches? i'm trying to understand what sticky means when people use it about clears, but i am not quite sure what they mean? i don't feel it. i'm using a mixture of light/vintage black springs with clears. i'm wondering if i should try 65g or 62g.. or both. thanks

In addition to what CPTBA said...
It's when the spring's force is barely enough to overcome the tactile bump when releasing the key-press,
thus the slider will kinda slow down (or stick) at that point until it jumps/slips over the bump, the movement will be less fluid.
I think a good analogy is driving ya car over speed bumps at unchanged speed (clears) or slowing down a lot before (ergo clears).

In addition to what I wrote...
The appeal of ergo clears seems to be to raise the difference between spring-force and the tactile-bump's resistance (bringing em further apart),
because this way the bump is felt much more striking/noticeable, but the trick is not raising the difference too much (handpicking springs or lubing helps here).

thanks for the input CPT and thesoulhunter. so in your opinion, what spring is the best to raise the difference between the spring force and the tactile-bump's resistance?

I made myself a mixed force ergo Poker...

Panda-Clears (Numrow, Shift, Tab, Caps, Enter)
65g-Clears (Index and Middlefinger keys)
62g-Clears (Pinky and Ringfinger keys)
Clears (Ctrl, Alt, Win, Menu, Esc)
Grey (Spacebar)

Kinda nice, but I wish we would have 70g springs :/
They would end up in between ergo-clears and stock-clears, as you see from the graph there is a large gap in between...
From my experience they would also hit the "sweet spot" between a well defined tactile-bump and not too much stickiness!

[CPTBadAss]

I actually like lighter actuation of stock Clears and cushiony bottoming out (i.e. I don't bottom out on them).  I know to each their own, but I feel like in the end Clear springs are better, given this graph.  And Black springs appear to make Clears overall heavier.

When I tried the Panda Clears, they felt lighter than Clears overall. Blacks make the bottom out a touch lighter and the and the actuation heavier like you said. So maybe by "lighter", I really meant more linear and that I liked that.

Regardless, I completely agree with you that stock Clears are really nice. I bottom out when I type and I never felt that Clears were too heavy.

[TheSoulhunter]

I bottom out when I type and I never felt that Clears were too heavy.

Well, for many the appeal of ergo-clears is not that they are lighter but that the tactile bump feels more/stronger defined as the difference between spring and stem-bump is raised.
But, it would be interesting to see a stem with a slightly bigger tactile bump + stock-clear springs (keeping the spring/bump ratio as on ergo clears) -> Stiff but still very bumpy...

[Photoelectric]

I think there's a limitation to how "bumpy" the bump can be with the Cherry switch design.  In my subjective opinion, inserting a lighter spring into Clears results in a longer period of resistance, which is not really the same as a tougher more noticeable bump, rubber-dome style.  It's that prolonged bump which makes ergo-Clears weird for me.  Instead of the solid coherent feel of Cherry switches, I end up with this long weird bump that feels almost wobbly to me.  Again, it's a subjective thing, but I think there's a limitation to the Cherry switch design by creating this bump via physical protrusions on the stems.  RD (and, I imagine, Topre switches) have a defined bump because it's a result of a near-instantaneous collapse of the rubber domes.  It's not a "long" bump--it's a quick bump that you can vary in terms of force required to overcome it.  Clears have a long bump with lighter springs, and stock springs reduce the duration of that bump by recoiling faster (and going down faster, since we apply more force right away).

[CPTBadAss]

I totally agree with you again Photoelectric. I like stock and Panda Clears because the bump of the Clears is preserved in my opinion. Anything lighter feels closer and closer to Browns which I hate. I much prefer the bump/click of Greens/Whites/Blues and of course the Clears I mentioned already.

[Ryan Uber]

FWIW, I ran a board with all stock clears for about 6 months and loved it. I then bought a new board and replaced all the switches with ergo clear's (blue spring). I don't quite like it as much as stocks and it was WAY more work.

Also, I replaced the space bar switch with a stock clear, because the lighter spring made it just awful. It would stick down ever so slightly, making a loud THWACK as it returned because my thumb would leave the keycap before it popped back.

So, all ergo's with stock clear space bar seems to be pretty decent to me, but if I did it again, I'd put nothing lighter than stock clear springs in. The sliders were probably designed with stiff springs in mind.

[TheSoulhunter]

Yeah, I wouldn't even recommend ergo clears for the other non 1x1 keys, for space I even prefer greys.
Also, if you didn't like ergo clears all that much, perhaps give 65g clears a try...