Topre vs Cherry

[piken]

Hi all,

As many of you have seen, I have been in the market for yet another mechanical board and still haven't been able to decided what to get. Well it is my bday and I have been getting a few nice cash gifts and now need your help.

I have the money to buy a topre board, or get a TKL MX red board and get some PBT caps for it.

What suggestions would you have?

I am looking at the 45g uniform as I play games along with my massive amount of coding that I do. My biggest concern is a board for home that is a pleasure to type on, but with less noise then my beloved MX blue board that the wife can't stand.

Looking fwd to suggestions along with reasoning.

Piken

[fossala]

I had used cherry since I started on mechanical keyboards but tried topre a week ago. My thought now is that unless you want an ergonomic keyboard, torpe are better.
I cannot put down a reason why I like them other than when I type I find my fingers flow better.

[boli]

I've never used a Topre board, but I finally got o-rings (the softer 40A ones) for two of my Kinesis boards (Cherry red) and love them for 3 reasons:
- Shorter travel
- Softer landing
- Considerably less noisy

A colleague at work (also a software developer like you or myself) also immediately loved the o-ringed keys (he's used to Cherry blacks).

My point: if you do get a board with Cherries I recommend trying out o-rings. The video at the link above demonstrates the effect quite well.

[piken]

I have o-rings on my boards, also tried soft landing pads. I am very familiar with cherry switches. I am just trying to determine if it is worth it to spend the price of 2+ cherry boards for 1 realforce board.

[TheProfosist]

I have o-rings on my boards, also tried soft landing pads. I am very familiar with cherry switches. I am just trying to determine if it is worth it to spend the price of 2+ cherry boards for 1 realforce board.

Yes it really is. The only thing that may bring me back to cherry switches is the DOX/Phantom and ergo-clears

[pitashen]

buy a topre. like it, keep it. don't like it, resell it here.

for me though, topre is not really worth the extra money. I have tried it, and liked it, but I would not pay that much for it. Besides, u get to have a lot more fun dressing your cherry board up with all kinds of key caps available.

[fossala]

Besides, u get to have a lot more fun dressing your cherry board up with all kinds of key caps available.

Some people forget that keyboards are to type on and not to look at.

[ekw808]

Some people forget that keyboards are to type on and not to look at.

Who wants to be a plain jane?

[duncan]

Some people forget that keyboards are to type on and not to look at.

Says you :-)

[pyro]

Keycaps impact the feel, too. Cherry MX Red with PBT caps would be a nice combo.

I don't see much difference between chiclet style keyboards and Realforce, as I perceived faster key actuation (at the cost bottoming out on every keystroke) to be the main benefit. But I've only had a HHKB Pro 2 for a few weeks.

[Daniel Beaver]

buy a topre. like it, keep it. don't like it, resell it here.

They hold their value, so this is worth doing. You're never going to know if you like a Topre until you try it.

[minnus]

Some people forget that keyboards are to type on and not to look at.

I'm not trying to troll or anything, but I noticed that you are looking for "interesting" Topre keycaps in the classifieds ;-) (btw -- me too! lol)

[fossala]

What I mean is that people shouldn't choose a keyboard on what caps they can get. Typing first, looks second.

[ekw808]

Thats a personal preference.

[popol]

Thats a personal preference.

yes the title of this thread is a bit ridiculous. It's like "Madonna vs Michael Jackson" childish

[Bry]

reds > topre > the rest

[ekw808]

NO, BIGGIE > TUPAC He obviously made more money so hes better.

But in all seriousness, try to go to a local store and try out the various switches they offer, if you are not content then buy a used topre off the classifieds somewhere. Or flip a coin

[duncan]

If you have the money get a Topre.

You owe it to yourself to have owned one.

[Forin]

I'm going to buy topre. I hope i won't like it since typing sound is terrible and looks of those boards leaves much to desire..

[Bertross]

i was extremely tempted to buy a Topre when they were on sale at my local PC store for $210, they have since then gone back up to $269 PP so i went a WASD instead with MX Reds and soft landing pads, i also have a Filco MJ2 MX Blues and i like them both for difference uses.

Reds i use at work, i have engraved black keys, awesome for long sessions of typing.
The Blues i use for gaming, i like the tactile feel in FPS!

Id love to try the HH or the Topre to compare my reds though. I also tried the Alps but thats another kettle of fish that wasn't for me....

If i was in this situation i would buy the Topre and give it 2 weeks to get used to and make a choice that way, their is always someone around the corner who will buy it if its not for you. its all part of the fun.

[Icarium]

Is there anything TKL or HHKB like with variable weight?

[Bertross]

isn't the Topre have the TKL options?

http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=113_1297&products_id=18677

[cactux]

^ ( realforce and hhkb) out of the box? no

[Bertross]

sure is. The TKL 87U is 55G/45G/35G

Topre Realforce keyboards employ unique capacitive switches with variable key weights to deliver an exceptionally comfortable typing experience. The switch weight is adjusted across the width of the keyboard depending on the relative position of the key and its usage (55g, 45g and 35g). This ergonomical design minimises fatigue, even after extended use.

The patented 30 million key life cycle non-contact electrostatic capacitance switches are also highly durable, and Topre keyboards have gained favor as specialized input devices in distribution, transportation, medical, and broadcasting environments.

[quickcrx702]

Obviously keyboards are very subjective, but I'll give you my opinion.  I really like the feeling of Cherry browns, and the sound that they make.  They make me feel like I'm typing on bamboo, a really awesome wood.  The Cherry blues come in slightly below browns for me for feeling, and buckling springs just a little below blues.  However, I've grown to hate the noise that the blues and bucking springs make.  It's enjoyable and quite fun for a little while, but when I type for hours at a time working, the high pitch really begins to test my nerves.  I really wanted to like the cherry reds and blacks because they make nice sounds and there is a lot of hype about them, but for some reason they just felt like toys to me.  It's hard to explain, they just felt like I would expect a fisher price keyboard to feel if they made one.  After spending a lot of money on other keyboards, I decided to get a uniform 55g Topre realforce to see if it was worth the hype, and I have absolutely no regrets.  My topre is now my favorite keyboard, followed closely by cherry browns.  The 55g topre almost feels like typing on a turn signal switch from a car, it feels really different from any other mechanical or rubber dome.  You feel it snap, and the audible feedback doesn't get irritating with long typing sessions.  The difference between a topre and a cherry for me is about the same as between a cherry and a rubber dome.  However, if you like the way reds and blacks feel, and do not like browns, blues, or bucking springs - then you might not share my opinion.  Good luck with your purchase.

[pyro]

Did you bottom out while typing on your cherry brown?

[Squelos]

I've never used a Topre board, but I finally got o-rings (the softer 40A ones) for two of my Kinesis boards (Cherry red) and love them for 3 reasons:
- Shorter travel
- Softer landing
- Considerably less noisy

A colleague at work (also a software developer like you or myself) also immediately loved the o-ringed keys (he's used to Cherry blacks).

My point: if you do get a board with Cherries I recommend trying out o-rings. The video at the link above demonstrates the effect quite well.

I wonder why its mainly developers who turn towards mechanical keyboards. We do use the keyboard alot, and we love our computer, but secretaries and some other jobs require more typing than we do, or at least I believe so.
We arent typing all day long, we have to think about conception, bugs etc ... Some other jobs are just plain brainless typing jobs.
Really is weird.

But after all, we are keyboard killers (my poor rubber dome dell quietKey is starting to shine already, after only a month of use at work ....

[daerid]

Where can you get a RF 30g? EK doesn't stock them

[TheProfosist]

Where can you get a RF 30g? EK doesn't stock them

Japan?

[daerid]

So essentially halfway around the planet from me

[Bertross]

Did you bottom out while typing on your cherry brown?

Its hard not to bottom out on the tactile MX IMO. After the click its not much further down esp if you use o-rings or landing pads. Reds are great way to teach yourself not to bottom out on. So silky!

[quickcrx702]

Its hard not to bottom out on the tactile MX IMO. After the click its not much further down esp if you use o-rings or landing pads. Reds are great way to teach yourself not to bottom out on. So silky!

That's what she said.  LOL.  But yeah, I tend to bottom out on browns because they are so light.  I have heavy fingers though.

[SpiderWaffle]

I would love to try a torpe, but I'd have to order overseas and would need try out for a month before I know if I like it.  I'm not sure how much someone would be willing to pay for it by then.  I've got a hunch I'd really like a red with some nice dampeners, currently using black and didn't like it at first over blue but it started to grow on me and now I like it better.  I know I'd be better off with less travel distance and lighter pressure, like I had with the fata1ty I used to love.  I'm not sure how keen I am on torpe having 55g on some keys, neat idea, seems good for general typing, but not sure about gaming, which is the main reason I want a high end keyboard.

[TheProfosist]

I believe that 55g is just escape. I have both 45g only boards and love them.

[SpiderWaffle]

Is there a 75% keyboard by torpe, like the Noppoo Choc Mini?

[piken]

Ty everyone for your feedback. I have been going back and forth on this one with my wife and can't justify the price at this time as the 87u is selling for a premium on EK when the suggested retail is currently only $265 for the 87u. Maybe in the future when they come back down, I will buy one.

But for now. I am going to order 2x QF rapid with reds from CMStore and look into a nice set of PBT's or doubleshots for my primary caps.

[captain]

Sell the wife.  Buy one of every keyboard!  ;-)

[Telstar]

Obviously keyboards are very subjective, but I'll give you my opinion.  I really like the feeling of Cherry browns, and the sound that they make.  They make me feel like I'm typing on bamboo, a really awesome wood.  The Cherry blues come in slightly below browns for me for feeling, and buckling springs just a little below blues.  However, I've grown to hate the noise that the blues and bucking springs make.  It's enjoyable and quite fun for a little while, but when I type for hours at a time working, the high pitch really begins to test my nerves.  I really wanted to like the cherry reds and blacks because they make nice sounds and there is a lot of hype about them, but for some reason they just felt like toys to me.  It's hard to explain, they just felt like I would expect a fisher price keyboard to feel if they made one.  After spending a lot of money on other keyboards, I decided to get a uniform 55g Topre realforce to see if it was worth the hype, and I have absolutely no regrets.  My topre is now my favorite keyboard, followed closely by cherry browns.  The 55g topre almost feels like typing on a turn signal switch from a car, it feels really different from any other mechanical or rubber dome.  You feel it snap, and the audible feedback doesn't get irritating with long typing sessions.  The difference between a topre and a cherry for me is about the same as between a cherry and a rubber dome.  However, if you like the way reds and blacks feel, and do not like browns, blues, or bucking springs - then you might not share my opinion.  Good luck with your purchase.

You are probably the right person to ask since I have similar preferences. Grew on my Model M keyboard, tired of the noise, cant stand the blues noise even more, went to browns but not entirely satisfied (I like the sound, though).
So I guess I should try a Topre next.
Which version?
The pressure should ideally be between the mx blue and brown (the bucking springs are different and they dont FEEL as heavy as they are). Also the lack of ISO layout is a big big big minus

[Typhaeon]

isn't the Topre have the TKL options?

Sure you're not from Austria instead of Australia with sentence structure like that?

I wonder if the original guy's going to give the Realforces another look, since EK's having a sale on that pushes them down into his price range.  If you are, OP man, I'll give you a verdict on Topres vs my Reds board when the 87U arrives later this week.

[Surly73]

You are probably the right person to ask since I have similar preferences. Grew on my Model M keyboard, tired of the noise, cant stand the blues noise even more, went to browns but not entirely satisfied (I like the sound, though).
So I guess I should try a Topre next.
Which version?
The pressure should ideally be between the mx blue and brown (the bucking springs are different and they dont FEEL as heavy as they are). Also the lack of ISO layout is a big big big minus

I know I'm not quickcrx, but can you state why you're not satisfied with browns?  That might help.  

As an owner of Topre, Cherry brown, Model M and a few other boards I can say that regardless of what Ripometers and force graphs might say Topres feel nothing like Cherrys when you stop measuring them and start using them.  If you feel you need a little bit of force fine tuning but are otherwise in love with Cherrys, then you might want to look within the Cherry line (like going with clears if you want slightly heavier browns).

If in doubt, buy a Topre from the classifieds and try it.  I see you want ISO layout so maybe you're somewhere that doesn't have a lot of available or shipping would be really expensive.  (I'm in Canada so I can understand that to some degree).  If you can find something second hand, it's a perfect way to try different switches.  If you don't like it, put it up for sale and move on.  You've suffered almost no depreciation in the process.   Something like a 103U would me more affordable than an 87U but still let you try the switch to see if you like it.

[Telstar]

I know I'm not quickcrx, but can you state why you're not satisfied with browns?  That might help.  
As an owner of Topre, Cherry brown, Model M and a few other boards I can say that regardless of what Ripometers and force graphs might say Topres feel nothing like Cherrys when you stop measuring them and start using them.  If you feel you need a little bit of force fine tuning but are otherwise in love with Cherrys, then you might want to look within the Cherry line (like going with clears if you want slightly heavier browns).

Hard to say. I like the MX brown very much but they tire my left hand a bit more than my bucking springs (my main keyboard).
I have tried almost all other cherry switches and a couple mods. I wouldn't want heavier browns, but silent blues

I'm in Europe and there are just a couple online shops that sells Topre keyboards for around 200€, and I would probably go with UK layout which should be easier to resell in case i dont like it or not enough to justify the investment.
Moreover, I hate the usb only option, the only model with ps/2 is ANSI and discontinued.
I want to collect more opinions before going the try and buy route.

[Surly73]

Hard to say. I like the MX brown very much but they tire my left hand a bit more than my bucking springs (my main keyboard).
I have tried almost all other cherry switches and a couple mods. I wouldn't want heavier browns, but silent blues

I'm surprised to hear you say that browns tire your hand more than BS.  That just doesn't compute  I wonder if it's not the key weight, but something else about how your muscles learned to use the switch that's tiring you out.  A secondary effect like your subconsciously actively resisting your natural typing force trying to bottom out less or something crazy, and the opposition to what's most comfortable is what's tiring you out.

Browns are lighter than BS, no question about that.  I'm not sure if there's much in the Cherry line up lighter than browns.  Reds are just brown-sprung switches with no tactility as far as I remember from section 10.1 of the wiki "ModX Coding Scheme for Unofficial Spring and Stem Combinations".

If you went Topre you may have little choice but variable if fatigue is an issue.  I've found Topres more fatiguing that Cherry or BS myself.  I'm sure that's a very personalized observation though and won't apply universally.

I'm in Europe and there are just a couple online shops that sells Topre keyboards for around 200€, and I would probably go with UK layout which should be easier to resell in case i dont like it or not enough to justify the investment.
Moreover, I hate the usb only option, the only model with ps/2 is ANSI and discontinued.
I want to collect more opinions before going the try and buy route.

Well, I didn't mean "try and buy" like when throwing parts at a problem with your car until it's fixed.  That's specifically why I said second-hand/used through a forum like this.  Otherwise you lose too much money in VAT/taxes and depreciation if you start with brand new product all the time.  You can try out the switches with just about any model/colour/ISO/ANSI board.  Once you know whether it's a good match or not, then you can start searching for your "ultimate" layout, key weight, colour, silent/regular, 86U/87U/91UY/103U, baby blue keys etc.... and hold tight until you see a good price on what you really want.

For all the reading I did to form opinions, I found I couldn't tell how I was going to like Topre until I tried it.

[Telstar]

I'm surprised to hear you say that browns tire your hand more than BS.  That just doesn't compute  I wonder if it's not the key weight, but something else about how your muscles learned to use the switch that's tiring you out.  A secondary effect like your subconsciously actively resisting your natural typing force trying to bottom out less or something crazy, and the opposition to what's most comfortable is what's tiring you out.

Browns are lighter than BS, no question about that.  I'm not sure if there's much in the Cherry line up lighter than browns.

I think it's something related to the feedback of the browns. Blues as i said feel lighter but are just too noisy. All other cherry switches i dont like except the ghetto reds (which i'll probably use for gaming).

If you went Topre you may have little choice but variable if fatigue is an issue.  I've found Topres more fatiguing that Cherry or BS myself.  I'm sure that's a very personalized observation though and won't apply universally.

For all the reading I did to form opinions, I found I couldn't tell how I was going to like Topre until I tried it.

What about the Topre with 45g fixed keys? You have the 55g or the variable ones?

[Surly73]

What about the Topre with 45g fixed keys? You have the 55g or the variable ones?

I've had a 55g and am now typing on a variable at the office (Filco w/ browns at home).  Considering that a Model M was my daily driver at the office I was surprised to find the 55g "too heavy" for me to reach my best speeds.  I gave it a long time (6 weeks?), but by fingers were still 'stabbing' at the keys to overcome the 55g's tactile pop instead of flowing over them.  This was slowing me down and fatiguing my finger tips.  I find that Realforce switches have a "buzzy" bottom out (possibly amplified by PBT caps?  No idea) that Cherry and Model M don't have.  In 55g trim this really got to bother me so I sold it locally.

I'm using a variable for about two weeks now.  I don't want to stop using it, but the "buzz" characteristic is still there.  I am occasionally getting the 'aaaaaaaaaa' everyone talks about from home row resting but, honestly, I think the variable weighting is done pretty well.  I haven't used a 45g board, but most of the variable board is 45g weighted.  It is a world different from 55g, but with some common characteristics.  I haven't made my decision about whether to go Cherry brown or Realforce variable for the office yet.  There's definitely something I like about the Realforce, but the brown may simply be a better match for me.  Having the same switch at home and office should have some benefits to overall performance too.

[daerid]

I agree about the Apple Aluminum tactility. Definitely one of the best scissor switch boards out there. Having said that, I absolutely LOVE this 87U 45g. Sometimes it feels almost too light, and I find myself wondering about the 55g board, but then I remember that I hate the slight stiffness that the CM Storm w/ blues I have has.

[quickcrx702]

I agree about the Apple Aluminum tactility. Definitely one of the best scissor switch boards out there. Having said that, I absolutely LOVE this 87U 45g. Sometimes it feels almost too light, and I find myself wondering about the 55g board, but then I remember that I hate the slight stiffness that the CM Storm w/ blues I have has.

The 55g feels nothing like the 45g.  It is super tactile.  Like typing on a light switch, or a turn signal, or a manual transmission shifter... it gives instant HEAVY feedback.  It's almost like the difference between cherry red and black, it's night and day.  I LOVE my 55g, but i find my 45g mediocre in comparison.  The 45g still feels better than various cherry switches to me, but it doesn't really justify the price tag as much.

[daerid]

I might end up springing for a 103UB 55g then... I'd love another 87UB, but the 103 is $65 cheaper... kinda hard to pass that up.

[quickcrx702]

Price tag IS the big difference.

With both you get ABS spacebars.

Some Duckys come with PBT spacebars as will the new Leopold and WASD.

Somebody is upset about his melted spacebar.  Sound's like somebody has a case of the Mondays.  U mad bro?  ROR.  The better question is, "Will it blend?"  As the number one keyboard expert on the planet, you really should test that out.

[quickcrx702]

It's pound you in the ass rape that they charge you that much more for less keyboard; and you STILL get a ABS space bar.

Werd ninja.  I thought the same thing, why the F is the 87 more expensive than the 103?  Only reason I paid the premium is that the 103 doesn't fit in my backpack, and I have to go to client sites pretty often, ROR.

[Telstar]

I've had a 55g and am now typing on a variable at the office (Filco w/ browns at home).  Considering that a Model M was my daily driver at the office I was surprised to find the 55g "too heavy" for me to reach my best speeds.  I gave it a long time (6 weeks?), but by fingers were still 'stabbing' at the keys to overcome the 55g's tactile pop instead of flowing over them.  This was slowing me down and fatiguing my finger tips.  I find that Realforce switches have a "buzzy" bottom out (possibly amplified by PBT caps?  No idea) that Cherry and Model M don't have.  In 55g trim this really got to bother me so I sold it locally.

I'm using a variable for about two weeks now.  I don't want to stop using it, but the "buzz" characteristic is still there.  I am occasionally getting the 'aaaaaaaaaa' everyone talks about from home row resting but, honestly, I think the variable weighting is done pretty well.  I haven't used a 45g board, but most of the variable board is 45g weighted.  It is a world different from 55g, but with some common characteristics.  I haven't made my decision about whether to go Cherry brown or Realforce variable for the office yet.  There's definitely something I like about the Realforce, but the brown may simply be a better match for me.  Having the same switch at home and office should have some benefits to overall performance too.

Thanks, this helped.
I think i'll stick longer with the filco with browns and see if i really feel the need to try a topre or not.