Ergo Boards and Alternative Layouts now have their own top-level forum!

[mkawa]

Discuss these topics in the main board at your leisure

[Icarium]

But why? It was so nice to find more interesting posts by simply checking the subforums.

[Input Nirvana]

I admit, it was nice having those HIGHLY SPECIFIC topics broken out. All 3 of them as subforums...it worked well. Seemed to make it more usable.

[mkawa]

not enough traffic to justify a forum. can you guys make a big ergo megathread in keyboards?

[hoggy]

not enough traffic to justify a forum. can you guys make a big ergo megathread in keyboards?

No problem - it's here - http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=33539.0

[Gerk]

I admit, it was nice having those HIGHLY SPECIFIC topics broken out. All 3 of them as subforums...it worked well. Seemed to make it more usable.

I agree.  Way too much to wade through in the main keyboard forum ... and honestly , how many times can you read "which keyboard should I buy" and "are blues better than browns" -- the stuff that I had any interest in is now long buried within this forum and it's way too much work to dig.

As for the mention of a mega-thread to house this stuff that's even worse for me.  No one wants to try and read a 50 page thread to see if someone answered a post from 10 pages ago.  Noise to content ratio gets really high.

I mean, let's see ... a forum based site that's dedicated to keyboards and now ALL of the discussion for said keyboards are crammed into a single forum?  What could go wrong with that ...

[pyro]

Indeed. It basically has killed the ergo and layout discussions.

[fartq]

here's the problem: there were only two-three active threads in ergo and layouts over the last couple of months. as far as general forum volume is concerned, that _is_ dead. we're going to be creating more new forums in order to expand the community in the coming months, and so there is a need to make the forum tree as compact as possible.

i will say that one of the major things on my todo list is to allow people to give every topic a title prefix from a small set of possible prefixes. one will then be able to filter each forum by thread prefix. eg, the keyboard prefixes could be "{buying, ergo, layouts, switches, vintage, other (none), ...}". by default, you will see all of the threads of every prefix. however, with a small pull-down or multi-selector, you will also be able to display only threads that have a given prefix subset.

in jargony terms, this scheme is isomorphic to the subforum scheme, but it doesn't require complicating the forum tree, and hence keeps the main page simpler.

[Gerk]

here's the problem: there were only two-three active threads in ergo and layouts over the last couple of months. as far as general forum volume is concerned, that _is_ dead. we're going to be creating more new forums in order to expand the community in the coming months, and so there is a need to make the forum tree as compact as possible.

i will say that one of the major things on my todo list is to allow people to give every topic a title prefix from a small set of possible prefixes. one will then be able to filter each forum by thread prefix. eg, the keyboard prefixes could be "{buying, ergo, layouts, switches, vintage, other (none), ...}". by default, you will see all of the threads of every prefix. however, with a small pull-down or multi-selector, you will also be able to display only threads that have a given prefix subset.

in jargony terms, this scheme is isomorphic to the subforum scheme, but it doesn't require complicating the forum tree, and hence keeps the main page simpler.

I can understand that ... but even though they weren't high traffic they were useful.

Might I suggest hat when new forums/subforums happens that you combine a bunch of those categories -- that while are not high traffic are still useful to keep separated (even if just for informational purposes).

I'll take that jargon and up you one; So in UX terms that means you're moving from an interface that's simple (and by simple I mean presentation wise, programming, cpu cycle wise, I/O usage wise, implementation time and effort wise, and cost in terms of how much work the user has to do to get at their desired content), well presented and clean index type layout (but admittedly somewhat long) and moving towards a more free-for-all interface that requires users to constantly interact (click, load content, use cpu cycles and I/O) to get the actual content they are looking for?  If you want to up the ante in terms of providing a better user experience (and moderating experience!) I think there are much better approaches you could take.  Are you talking about working in some custom SMF code/addons to bring this kind of functionality?  In my opinion it sounds like you're removing subforums and then re-inventing the wheel to add back in some of that functionality at a high cost (in all the same terms as I used for simple).

Just my $0.02 obviously -- I have no desire to moderate/admin/code on/support something like this so kudos to you all for doing it!  Just sharing my honest opinion that I think this takes away from some of the value of this forum.  You can go to hundreds of places online to discuss gaming equipment (including keyboards) but it's hard to find a decent discussion on ergo keyboards and alternative layouts without having to really dig ... and you used to be able to do that without too much effort here.

[Gerk]

Lastly it is a lot of work to keep the main page simpler ... another suggestion would just be to modify the main page to show only the main forum areas or areas that you somehow designate as "main page" worthy, but leave subforums intact within SMF.  You could probably make a mod like that in a couple of hours tops ... again just my $0.02. 

Also I would suggest looking at somewhere like http://dslreports.com who has tons and tons of forums and take inspiration from them (not their look or actual code mind you ... just the concept LOL).  How about a "main" page that is actually a custom module that shows you forums that you've participated in (but still has an easy way to still go to all the main forum listings to find other stuff).  I think an approach like that would fit the users here very well ... if they aren't into modding or buying/selling they never have to wade through any of that stuff, and vice-versa for users that are here to mod and buy/sell but don't care about general keyboard or other peripheral talk, etc.

[fartq]

oh my god, the dslreports forums front page is a literal nightmare. this is exactly what we want to avoid.

anyway, the prefixing thing has to go in for the marketplace, so it's not additional work

[Soarer]

Given that some of the people wanting to keep up with ergo/alternative layouts will have medical problems like RSI, it seems reasonable to provide fairly direct access to those topics somehow!

[fartq]

an interesting dimension i had not considered!

[Gerk]

oh my god, the dslreports forums front page is a literal nightmare. this is exactly what we want to avoid.

anyway, the prefixing thing has to go in for the marketplace, so it's not additional work

Yes, not the way they lay it out, but the general approach -- their layout is horrible.  Once you've participated in the forums you can then get back into anything with one click.  To find other content you have to dig a little more.

I'll stop preaching at this point, but I do think the ergo/alternative layout stuff really does deserve a dedicated place, even if it's not high traffic.

[fartq]

ok. input duly noted and will be seriously considered (how to make customizable places for niche topics without adding clutter?)

[Lanx]

it is silly to re-integrate the ergo forums with the keyboard forums, without the benefit of past historical performance. Meaning, if there is a silly "SUPER ERGO THREAD" it's just gonna get buried or it would be too broad of a topic for most ppl who are interested in the ergo realm. Ergo sub-forum was the best idea, the main lacking realization of the supposed "DEAD" ergo forums is that there is no new threads.

well wrong, go see how many views each thread has then, it was a way for ergo ppl and those interested in ergo to easily read whatever they wanted and such. Maybe when a decent wiki comes out? i guess but no merging the ergo subforums is a silly mistake of underinformed mis-information.

[kurplop]

I would like to first thank all of the moderators and other volunteers for keeping this site running. I have learned so much from this site.

Being a worn out old geriatric, I especially enjoyed the ergo forum. Months ago I noticed the trickle of activity on it and feared the lack of activity might reflect a lack of interest and the eventual discontinuation of the forum.

Without complaining, I would simply like to go on record as being one who will miss the ergo sub forum.

[shrap]

I will also miss the old ergo subforum, and I fear that I have even less reason to visit this forum.

Ergo keyboard topics and "standard" keyboard topics pretty much have no overlap.

I'm curious why other topics haven't been consolidated into a megathread; I think the megathread concept is good if applied across the board. Really eliminates every new person starting the same five or so threads and eliminates the noise to signal ratio.

In another forum I frequent, one of the rules is "be respectful of people who have already posted on that topic." Posting a new topic that has already been addressed is actually grounds for being banned if done poorly.

[Gerk]

I'm curious why other topics haven't been consolidated into a megathread; I think the megathread concept is good if applied across the board. Really eliminates every new person starting the same five or so threads and eliminates the noise to signal ratio.

Not really, at least IMHO.  It means that newbies will post the same question over and over again in that single thread which would add to the noise.  If they don't browse or search the forum for something they want to know about there probably less likely to browse/search a massively long thread for it.

I have to admit the whole mega-thread concept to me is a bit whacky, it's like reverting back about 15 years in terms of functionality.  Is it an online-hipster-retro thing that I'm just not cool enough to "get" ? hah

[Lanx]

i'm going to be the evil guy here and say that, the mini ergo community that sprouted from the sub forum, is now destroyed, i mean that's the truth (i'm including alt layout ppl too), if that's the intent then congrats, but i will NOT find a home in a all in one sticky thread, i mean really i thought we graduated from this a few years ago.

[shrap]

I'm curious why other topics haven't been consolidated into a megathread; I think the megathread concept is good if applied across the board. Really eliminates every new person starting the same five or so threads and eliminates the noise to signal ratio.

Not really, at least IMHO.  It means that newbies will post the same question over and over again in that single thread which would add to the noise.  If they don't browse or search the forum for something they want to know about there probably less likely to browse/search a massively long thread for it.

That's exactly what I want - for the noise to be contained in specific topics, instead of taking over 80% of every topic list.

If some people are too lazy to search for previous topics that cover the exact same thing they want to ask, that's their own problem, not the forum's. We need less of these people, not more. We shouldn't be pandering to the lazy.

I have to admit the whole mega-thread concept to me is a bit whacky, it's like reverting back about 15 years in terms of functionality.  Is it an online-hipster-retro thing that I'm just not cool enough to "get" ? hah

How is having a single thread that covers a single topic a step backwards in functionality?

You would prefer to have multiple threads that ask the same same question, thus spreading out all the answers? Why is every person's question so unique that it requires new answers?

Anyway, citing "lack of activity" for removing the ergo subforum seems like a strange decision. It didn't add time to any moderators' workload. It didn't cost the forum more money to have it. From my perspective, the lack of activity was true to reality; there just isn't that many new topics in the keyboard world, both ergo and standard. At least when something was posted there, it was actually worth reading and discussing.

[Gerk]

The big problem is that trying to have a single "conversation" -- I.e. you're replying to something some said ends up buried between 6 others that are trying to do the same. Makes it unusable and will add to the noise when people ask the same thing every few pages because they missed the reply buried within other stuff they don't care about.

[Input Nirvana]

Lotta good ideas and perspectives presented here about the loss of ergo, alternative sub forums. They may have been less traffic at times due to the highly specific nature of the sub forums, but they have far less crap (what keyboard should I buy every few weeks) and are often very intense. Different forum animal, Why is a forum rated by volume anyhow? Since when is QUANTITY the standard? Didn't people get BANNED for filling the general forums with useless banter? If you want to carry the reasoning of one forum for all keyboards....keep the ball rolling and make one super-duper-mega-forum for ALL input devices. That will really clean up the front page. Megathread THAT b*tches!

Yea, I'm not gonna try and sift through the one keyboard forum. Already tried that, wasn't worth the work. But that's just me. We are highly visual, it's our nature...the site should be visually navigable for main/sub topics so we can browse. Any drilling down after that is for the search/filter/etc. If I gotta do that on every single thing I'm looking for...I'll just GOOGLE THAT SH*T.

[kurplop]

Given that some of the people wanting to keep up with ergo/alternative layouts will have medical problems like RSI, it seems reasonable to provide fairly direct access to those topics somehow!

We just might be cited by some obscure ADA clause!

It looks like, for our protection, we may have to restore the ergo sub-forum.

[spremino]

Hahahaha! I came back to GeekHack after a while with the exact purpose of checking the Ergo subforum and... it's gone.  A loss indeed.

[kurplop]

Hang in there. Maybe we can break down the resistance of the powers that be.

[Input Nirvana]

Hang in there. Maybe we can break down the resistance of the powers that be.

Been there, done that.
Over it.

[Gerk]

Yea, I'm not gonna try and sift through the one keyboard forum. Already tried that, wasn't worth the work. But that's just me. We are highly visual, it's our nature...the site should be visually navigable for main/sub topics so we can browse. Any drilling down after that is for the search/filter/etc. If I gotta do that on every single thing I'm looking for...I'll just GOOGLE THAT SH*T.

^^^^ exactly my thoughts.  Had there not been an ergo subforum I probably would have never joined the community in the first place and would still be googling for answers (well actually I am back to googling for answers now, it's easier than trying to find the threads in here).

[Tony]

Why don't we mix all classifieds and mice discussion to the keyboard forum to make things even more interesting, buddies?

[Lanx]

is there a point to this discussion? a see one or two ppl who are willing to "roll with the changes" but seems to be 80% negative, as in this was a silly decision, can we get the ergo/alt layout forums back? or do we continue to make fun of silly decisions?

[mkawa]

there have been more new posts in this thread berating me for merging the ergo threads into the main keyboard forum than there were in the ergo forum in the month prior to me merging the ergo threads into the main keyboard forum.

here's my suggestion. if you say: "i want things to be exactly the way they were", that's not constructive. i've already explained why that doesn't really work for us.

if instead you say: "these were the things (eg, better search, easy differentiation of new topics) that i got out of the ergo subforum, and they're still important to me", then that's the beginnings of being constructive, because it tells me what i can implement to give you that functionality, while still avoiding the problems that the dedicated forum provided.

ideally, if you could say: "these were the things I got out of the ergo subforum, and here's an idea for how we can get these things back." that's by far the most constrctive, because now i can build a roadmap to get you those things that can turn into executable code, and ta-da, your grandest dreams come true.

here are/were my ideas:

1) build a curated megathread that contains links to the information that was most popular in the old ergo subforum. keep it updated, and instead of having those 2-3 active threads from the ergo subforum, maintain a single large thread in this forum that encompasses all those things as well as linking out to information that at this point is largely read-only, and archived some pages back.

2) tell me what you're trying to find, what search string you're trying to use, and what you're finding with that search string instead of what you want to find. i can tweak the search engine included in SMF, and we're looking at integrating a much more advanced (and significantly faster) sphinx-based solution as well.

3) participate in the new ergo discussions that are popping up from newbies in this forum right now. the nice thing about having one large forum is that it is very friendly to new users. have a question about keyboards? you don't need to spend 30 minutes searching for the right subcategorization to put your question in: just ask! eventually a more organic ergo ecosystem should evolve, assuming, as you are, that there's enough interest in ergo-boards to, at one point, have justified a subforum.

[Icarium]

Since I can't figure out how to properly answer with quotes with reasonable effort I'll just make your part italic.

there have been more new posts in this thread berating me for merging the ergo threads into the main keyboard forum than there were in the ergo forum in the month prior to me merging the ergo threads into the main keyboard forum.
This is a good thing to me. It means it is immediately obvious that nothing ergo related has been posted. I'm sorry about the berating part, though. :/

here's my suggestion. if you say: "i want things to be exactly the way they were", that's not constructive. i've already explained why that doesn't really work for us.
Please note that many people say that because that is indeed what they want. Just keeping the front page simple is a matter of hiding complicated structure from new users not necessarily of removing that structure.

if instead you say: "these were the things (eg, better search, easy differentiation of new topics) that i got out of the ergo subforum, and they're still important to me", then that's the beginnings of being constructive, because it tells me what i can implement to give you that functionality, while still avoiding the problems that the dedicated forum provided.
Well, I think we would all agree that we want fast and easy access to topics we are interested in. I think your idea with tagging is great, it is just like a forum tree but with tags instead of hierarchical. Some tags I would be interested in: ergo, layouts, vintage

ideally, if you could say: "these were the things I got out of the ergo subforum, and here's an idea for how we can get these things back." that's by far the most constrctive, because now i can build a roadmap to get you those things that can turn into executable code, and ta-da, your grandest dreams come true.
I think a subforum worked just fine. It could be hidden from the front page to not confuse total newbies and mods could easily merge the topics to that forum. I also like your tag idea a lot but it just doesn't exist yet.

here are/were my ideas:

1) build a curated megathread that contains links to the information that was most popular in the old ergo subforum. keep it updated, and instead of having those 2-3 active threads from the ergo subforum, maintain a single large thread in this forum that encompasses all those things as well as linking out to information that at this point is largely read-only, and archived some pages back.
I don't like it. It does the exact opposite of structuring information by packing it all into one place. Searching for things is often tedious and a matter of guessing the right keywords. This is especially hard when you don't exactly know what you're talking about. This is often the case with people coming here with RSI problems and looking help.

2) tell me what you're trying to find, what search string you're trying to use, and what you're finding with that search string instead of what you want to find. i can tweak the search engine included in SMF, and we're looking at integrating a much more advanced (and significantly faster) sphinx-based solution as well.
Hm...I think this has been answered.

3) participate in the new ergo discussions that are popping up from newbies in this forum right now. the nice thing about having one large forum is that it is very friendly to new users. have a question about keyboards? you don't need to spend 30 minutes searching for the right subcategorization to put your question in: just ask! eventually a more organic ergo ecosystem should evolve, assuming, as you are, that there's enough interest in ergo-boards to, at one point, have justified a subforum.
I think it is great when users can just ask. But I think the questions should somehow be directed at the users that are interested in the topic the question is about. I think tags could be good for this if their usage is somehow enforced. The generally best way to do this is to let users just ask and let moderators do the tagging/moving-to-subforum.

EDIT: Maybe we should start keyboardoverflow.

[Soarer]

Well here's some more negativity )

I don't like the idea of tags. They're OK to help exploring some subject initially, but I can't see them being nice to use on a day-to-day basis as a secondary navigation method. That they are even being suggested for that purpose hints that removal of the subforum was a mistake.

Quantity does not equal quality! The main disagreement here is that users of the subforum considered the lack of noise a benefit, not a problem. Of course their opinions of the change are going to be negative. That should not be reason to dismiss their criticism as being non-constructive - indeed, the act of removing the subforum was distinctly destructive!

The subforum had its own small but solid community, with some of the longest-standing geekhack members. To use a UK analogy, it's as if the population of a small village in Scotland has suddenly been forcibly relocated and scattered across London. As compensation, they might one day receive 'ergo' window stickers 

I'm not surprised at all that many responses have been negative. I'm also, sadly, not altogether surprised at the response to such criticism. Sorry, mkawa, you can't expect to silence dissent by saying "I've already explained why", when much of the dissent is against those reasons.

[Icarium]

I have to admit that I have never actually used a tagging system. I just sounds like a natural extension to hierarchical organization to me.

[Soarer]

Technically it's orthorgonal to the hierarchy. In a sense it's a hand-optimised search, depending on people adding the right tags to posts/threads.

[Icarium]

Well, I'm not sure what you mean by orthogonal. If you mean they can be used at once without influencing each other I agree. On an abstract level they are both used for organizing data and the hierarchical organization can be implemented using tags. They are usually used in a rather "flat" way, though.

[pyro]

And aren't ergonomic and regular keyboard discussions kind of noise to one another? This is a more severe problem for the ergonomic people, because it's 2:48 ergonomic to regular keyboard topics right now. And to fix it for the ergonomic people you'll introduce new concepts and more interface for everyone, rebuilding the functionality of a subforum in a non subforum kind of way.

Besides, I think it was quite sensible to contain high frequency and expiration rate discussions in one forum and let the more ~mature (for lack of a better word) discussions take place in their respective subforums.

[Soarer]

Well, I'm not sure what you mean by orthogonal. If you mean they can be used at once without influencing each other I agree. On an abstract level they are both used for organizing data and the hierarchical organization can be implemented using tags. They are usually used in a rather "flat" way, though.

Yeah, just mean that they are independant really. X and Y axis on a graph are orthogonal.

Tags 'as a hierarchy' doesn't really work in practice. Sure, 'ergo' is broader than 'kinesis', but not all 'kinesis' are 'in' 'ergo'. It is naturally a flat system. Although I suppose you could add the 'ergo' tag automatically wherever 'kinesis' was used, I don't think that's a good way to use tags.

Besides, when you have something that is clearly a sub-category of part of the main hierarchy, that's the sensible place to put it! As you said, that's what people want... because that's what serves the need best.

[Icarium]

Hm..now that's a bit confusing. If Kinesis is not necessarily ergo then why would you want to automatically add the ergo tag? I'm confused about what kind of behavior you would expect here.

[Soarer]

Well my opinion is that you wouldn't want to, and that tags are 'flat'. I was just saying that's the kind of (nasty) thing you'd have to do to force any kind of hierarchy onto it.

[Icarium]

Well, you would have to add the tags in the same way that you used to organize your hierarchy. For example there could be a tag "keyboards" for the keyboard forum and one "diy" for the workshop forum. Then you could have a tag "keyboards-ergo" and "keyboards-layout" for the former subforums. Or you could automatically add the tag "keyboards" for anything with the tag "ergo".

I am just saying that technically it is a more powerful system and you could implement a hierarchical organization using tags. But of course doing that makes no sense whatsoever in this case.

[vatin]

How pity. Because to me all those "non ergonomic" boards are not so interesting.

Sent from my GT-I9000 using Tapatalk 2

[fartq]

you can have hierarchical tags. actually the way to look at it is that tagsets form a lattice where ordering is given by non-strict subset operator. it's not silly at all. in fact i believe gmail implements something like this. check it out

[Lanx]

no, just have it back to a sub-forum, just because you have a "new toy" and can play around with smf and tags, doesn't mean you should, what is a failure here is that no "new threads" is good, but no one looks at the "VIEWS" is that so difficult to understand? When the "round of moderators" came around the ergo/alt forum was the last to get/volunteer one, why? we didn't need one, why? because the information was all there, and stuff was answered by ergo/alt forum regulars, again just because you have a new toy, doesn't mean you should play with it and show it around to everyone at the party.

[Soarer]

It is pretty silly to dream of hierarchical tags, when...
a) the subforum had a perfectly reasonable and obvious place in the forum hierarchy.
b) you don't even have basic tag support yet.
c) a newbie would not know they had to add tags, or which tags, in order to get the attention of the regulars.
d) tags are messy - the list of top-level tags is likely to be far longer than the list of top-level forums.

[dorkvader]

no, just have it back to a sub-forum, just because you have a "new toy" and can play around with smf and tags, doesn't mean you should, what is a failure here is that no "new threads" is good, but no one looks at the "VIEWS" is that so difficult to understand? When the "round of moderators" came around the ergo/alt forum was the last to get/volunteer one, why? we didn't need one, why? because the information was all there, and stuff was answered by ergo/alt forum regulars, again just because you have a new toy, doesn't mean you should play with it and show it around to everyone at the party.

I volunteered to moderate that forum on the very first day, although I do have to admit that there wasn't as much to moderate, as there were only 1-2 or so new topics every day.

[kurplop]

I must have missed the explanation as to why the ergo sub-forum wasn't practical. Was it just the lack of activity or did it require to much effort to keep it going?

Of course I want the best for this community and am open to any changes but I don't understand what was wrong with the way it was.

[Input Nirvana]

no, just have it back to a sub-forum, just because you have a "new toy" and can play around with smf and tags, doesn't mean you should, what is a failure here is that no "new threads" is good, but no one looks at the "VIEWS" is that so difficult to understand? When the "round of moderators" came around the ergo/alt forum was the last to get/volunteer one, why? we didn't need one, why? because the information was all there, and stuff was answered by ergo/alt forum regulars, again just because you have a new toy, doesn't mean you should play with it and show it around to everyone at the party.

Gee Lanx, are you in my head? I wrote the same paragraph, posted it, saw yours, said 'wth?' how can that be?...then realized that what we all are saying is perfect sense and shouldn't be hard to see/explain unless no one wants to hear it.

It seems to me, this thread is effectively dead...what has been said by members is a very clear and strong majority with no ambiguity what so ever, regardless of any moderator sales pitch to the contrary, and mkawa has restated the GH line absolutely. GH will do as it pleases, which has been a disaster since before the "MIP" (Moderator Inception Period). GH had become marginally usable, then r00tass, and then all this shizz. Members are not happy, and it seems to not account for much.


Obviously, I have a big interest in ergo, Kinesis Advantage, RollerMouse, Y-mouse adapters, Alphrgrip, Kennsington Expert Mouse Pro, Mac TrackPads, Datahands, and getting into squabbles over the most stupid sh*t.

My interest has continued to drop to a virtual "0".

Input Nirvana OUT

[mkawa]

i understand your frustration IN, and i want to make it clear that i'm taking you guys seriously, but i think there are bigger problems we can root out here to make your experience better while still strictly improving the experience for newbies. i see subforums as a band-aid for the bigger problem: low signal/noise in the main keyboards forum.

i also want to explicitly say that the reason i haven't just re-implemented this band-aid is that, to be clear, my #1 goal in any and all changes to geekhack is to expand its userbase. to this end, please see my actions as encouragement to build the best user-generated content as possible, and to make it as accessible to new guests as possible.

the concrete action we are going to take as of today is that the moderation team will actively start merging "recommend me a keyboard/keyswitch" threads into two large megatopics expressly for that purpose, with a better curated guidebook at the front (and developing some wiki content in parallel to help with the advice-giving). i think this will strictly improve the forum for everyone, and allow the keyboards forum to be used for more creative purposes than a flood of recommendation threads.

[sordna]

Hi,
if you want to expand the user base, an ergo/alternative layout thread is actually helpful, because there are folks dedicated and into these topics. I agree perhaps it was too much granularity having ergo and alternative be different subforums, how about merging those 2 into 1 ?
But that one subforum MUST BE separate from the main keyboards thread. I used to go into geekhack, check the ergo, check the alternative layouts, read new posts, post any replies, etc.
Now I cannot do that. If I want to see what is happening in those areas, I have to sift through hundreds of new posts/threads, especially if I haven't logged into GH for a few days.
Without an ergo/alternative subforum you will not be attracting these types of folks, and you could actually lose the ones you had.

Regarding a megathread: that does not scale, at some point it will stop being maintained. A subforum is the *exact tool* needed here.

Can we please have it back? Again, feel free to merge ergo & alternative into one subforum, but it needs to be separate from the "keyboards" kitchen sink.

thanks,
sordna, former ergo subforum moderator

[Soarer]

Well bugger me, sordna has just posted almost exactly what I was typing... I'll still post it anyway!

It's not a 'band-aid', it's a completely logical subset of 'keyboards'! I can see the logic of merging ergo with alternative layouts, since they are kinda related, but I really fail to understand your hatred of subforums. Honestly, whatever you do, 'keyboards' is going to be the catch-all forum, and it will always be noisy. Attempting to curtail that is a waste of time. Subforums are THE best way to give signal some space to breathe.

to be clear, my #1 goal in any and all changes to geekhack is to expand its userbase

If you mean expand the numbers, that seems to be happening regardless.

If you mean expand the breadth of different types of user, then so far, and even considering the proposed future changes that have been mentioned, I'd say it's a whopping fail. When someone new arrives, they'll make a judgement based on the main forum page. If it doesn't show breadth, they're more likely to decide that GH isn't for them (since the alternative 'latest posts' view will always be 95% noise).

[Gerk]

Hi,
if you want to expand the user base, an ergo/alternative layout thread is actually helpful, because there are folks dedicated and into these topics. I agree perhaps it was too much granularity having ergo and alternative be different subforums, how about merging those 2 into 1 ?
But that one subforum MUST BE separate from the main keyboards thread. I used to go into geekhack, check the ergo, check the alternative layouts, read new posts, post any replies, etc.
Now I cannot do that. If I want to see what is happening in those areas, I have to sift through hundreds of new posts/threads, especially if I haven't logged into GH for a few days.
Without an ergo/alternative subforum you will not be attracting these types of folks, and you could actually lose the ones you had.

Regarding a megathread: that does not scale, at some point it will stop being maintained. A subforum is the *exact tool* needed here.

Can we please have it back? Again, feel free to merge ergo & alternative into one subforum, but it needs to be separate from the "keyboards" kitchen sink.

thanks,
sordna, former ergo subforum moderator

Well said sordna and I couldn't agree more.  I'd be very happy with a combined subforum of ergo, alternate key layouts (and anything else applicable), whatever it takes to get the ergo stuff back out of the main keyboard forum.

[mkawa]

ok, i've one-upped you guys. i've created a new top-level forum called "ergonomics" (this covers alternative layouts, since frankly they're all about ergonomics). the problem is i don't know what to repopulate it with. i want to add at least one global mod that can help me with this forum and make it the #1 resource for computer ergonomics on the net. my default was soarer (and the offer still stands, frankly), but i'm open to other volunteers. please PM me.

[Gerk]

Thanks mkawa.  That sounds like a great way to get the ergo stuff out of the keyboards forum and a good pairing as most people I know into ergo keyboards have at least some interest in other ergo items

[Soarer]

the problem is i don't know what to repopulate it with.

Oh dear. That's something I feared when I wrote this:

indeed, the act of removing the subforum was distinctly destructive!

"More haste, less speed" springs to mind. If you had waited until tags were working, and tagged all those threads, at least it would have been possible to move the threads back without much fuss.

[kurplop]

Thanks mkawa.  That sounds like a great way to get the ergo stuff out of the keyboards forum and a good pairing as most people I know into ergo keyboards have at least some interest in other ergo items

I couldn't have said it better myself!   Great solution combining several ergonomic disciplines.

[tsangan]

I anyone has a specific thread they want moved over there let me know on here, I'm going through keyboards page by page and moving the ergo stuff over

EDIT: Nevermind I found a way to repopulate it with the old threads it's a tedious method but better then me going through page by page, give me a little time i'll get this done

[Soarer]

Many thanks, tsangan!

[tsangan]

Back from dinner gonna move some more threads

[Icarium]

Sweet. Thanks guys!

[kurplop]

Some times dreams do come true.  The ergonomic forum looks great. Thanks tsangan.

[Input Nirvana]

Good move. Who knows, maybe better than before.

You may want to do a search of my screen name....I usually posted about ergonomics, mods, or stupid forum in-fighting...so you can repopulate some of that.....I'm pretty much a 3 trick pony.

[mkawa]

IN i expect you to exercise your full and prodigious expertise on chairs and chair-mounting keyboards in this new forum

ps, my upper back hurts like crazy

[Input Nirvana]

.....ps, my upper back hurts like crazy

IN recommends:
Less time with keyboards, more time with  girlfriend.

[mkawa]

HINT HINT: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=34779.0

[hoggy]

Discuss these topics in the main board at your leisure

A bit late, but yay!

[litster]

Glad that ergo has its own forum again. I want my ergo Dox!  I am running out of keyboards to solder.

[sordna]

THANK YOU mkawa and tsangan !!!

[Lanx]

ok, i've one-upped you guys. i've created a new top-level forum called "ergonomics" (this covers alternative layouts, since frankly they're all about ergonomics). the problem is i don't know what to repopulate it with. i want to add at least one global mod that can help me with this forum and make it the #1 resource for computer ergonomics on the net. my default was soarer (and the offer still stands, frankly), but i'm open to other volunteers. please PM me.

imo you don't need an ergonomic forum mod, why? the only thing the ergonomic forum mod would do would be to browse the "regular" keyboard forum, go "oh look someone posted a "i need ergonomic keyboard help" in the regular forums, lemme move that to the ergonomic forums", which any mod would do anyway since i'm pretty sure the "regular" forum is always being checked.

don't get me wrong, i'm not having a "ergo forum don't need no mod" mentality, this is just from a resource management perspective, you can really just let the ergo forum go, and if an ergo forum regular (this becomes apparent really early on) drops a pm that, "hey i think such and such thread needs a bit of moderation", once a month, seems hands off.

[Gerk]

I think he was just looking for help to move all the ergo stuff back into this forum (which seems to have already mostly happened)

[Lanx]

damn reading comprehension is failing me today then.

[mkawa]

yes, tsangan stepped in and made this happen. otherwise, we are not looking to expand the mod team at this time.

thanks to all, tsangan especially, but the old-timer ergo enthusiasts who are stepping up and answering people's questions with a great deal of insight as well. you are very much appreciated. thank you all for convincing me to do this. i think it's turned out quite wonderfully

[Tony]

Thanks for ergo and keycap forum, would you guys recover the alternative layout subforum as well?

[sordna]

Thanks for ergo and keycap forum, would you guys recover the alternative layout subforum as well?

The ergonomics forum covers layouts if you look at the description, so this is it I believe.

[Tony]

Thanks, I've found it.

[boli]

Oh there's a separate forum for ergo & alt layouts again, awesome! 

I couldn't be bothered checking the noisy keyboards forum for this stuff, so I stayed away from the new GH, very glad to see this change. Thanks mods!

[Piro]

This is wonderful. Thank you!