Author Topic: New 60% board... whatever it is called. +Rumors and speculations.  (Read 50858 times)

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Offline laffindude

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New 60% board... whatever it is called. +Rumors and speculations.
« on: Fri, 16 November 2012, 04:53:05 »
I am hijacking this thread for new 60% rumors and speculation:

Copied from: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=37444.msg774511#msg774511
To recap on the coming 60% boards:
Poker 2 Poker 2
Poker Pro
Poker "classic" - Unclear whether or not this will be programmable like Poker 2, but it will have the original Poker layout.
Poker "DIY" - Programmable + different layouts supported.

Leopold Cherry MX FC660M & electrostatic capacitance (AKA Topre) FC660C
Filco 60%
Rumored 60% Name = Ginkyo? TEX Beetle TKB600 [Click here for the official thread]. Mashby's impression on preproduction sample. My impression of production sample part 1 and part 2.



Stuff in the quote below and posts through mid January is semi outdated. Remember, it was an engineering sample. Specs were subject to change and change it did. Main change is that it was changed to fully programmable top and function layer. Not sure if it has a programmable layer (a 3rd layer on the sample). If it does not, I wonder what PN does. Anyhow, it is called Poker 2 or Pure Pro depending on region and language.

Quote from: laffindude
Show Image

Engineering sample. Happy 60% family.

I'll write more later.


So I been using this for the past hour or so. I almost feel right at home, obviously since I do have my share of mini boards. I don't want to talk too much about the function, since that could be subject to change. I'll just go over the layout a little bit plus a few tibits.

This is obviously very much like a HHKB Pro 2 JP, the odd stagger and bottom right arrow keys and all. Fitting all these keys have made a very complicated bottom row. So there is a Fn key on each side now, in addition to that Pn. That squished the space bar down to 4.5x, which is what a JP layout Filco uses, so it isn't made of unobtainium. With the odd stagger comes with the kinda off 2x Lshift. That isn't hard to get since you can use num_0 for that. Not a huge deal. There aren't any hard to get key sizes for this board, which is a huge plus, though it does obviously need a bunch of R1 1x keys. So if you like boring black (blank) boards like myself, you should have not too much problem acquiring keycaps. If not, that's not my problem ;)

The function layer is closer to the Pure than it is to Poker. It is missing some superfluous things like Numlock. It obviously lost the arrows since there are physical keys now. If you noticed my post below somewhere, you'd notice the Pn key. It is hardware based, but I think you're limited to what is on the board already. I don't like the location of the FN and Pn keys. YMMV of course. I wish the there is a dip switch setting to change the left FN to Pn key.

Now onto the board itself. It has same mounting holes as a Pure. I am sure some of you will jizz your pants at the next statement... It is a plate mount. It doesn't feel flimsy and light like plastic cased Poker and Pure. It's a solid feeling board. I don't get to play with this for an extended time, so I won't mount it in my aluminum Pure case (which is dampened and weighted down. It will be epic when I buy a production board.).

AFAIK, they are interested in doing ISO layouts (I believe French, German, and Spanish layouts, there is another one I don't remember). So if you want it in ISO layout... Speak up, so I can tell the dude there is an definite interest in those layouts when I hand the board back. I save the last 2 paragraphs together since plate mount requires different plates for different layouts.

That's it for now with the limited amount of time I have my hands on it... and I really don't like typing on MX blacks.
PS I already passed suggestion for greens back ;)
PS2. Apparently I like using obviously very much. Obviously.
« Last Edit: Thu, 30 May 2013, 04:39:02 by laffindude »

Offline rayuki

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Re: New 60% board... whatever it is called.
« Reply #1 on: Fri, 16 November 2012, 04:59:13 »
yummy looks good, love that it has arrow keys.

Offline MissMurd3r84

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Re: New 60% board... whatever it is called.
« Reply #2 on: Fri, 16 November 2012, 05:05:03 »
Are they going to be sold complete or is it a DIY project?
KBC Poker - Red switches. Noppoo Choc Mini - Black switches. Leopold FC700R (White) - Blue switches. Ducky YOTD - Brown switches. Razer BW - Blue switches and rusted.

Offline Rinsaku

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New 60% board... whatever it is called.
« Reply #3 on: Fri, 16 November 2012, 05:05:26 »
And....... I need to get my hands on one these. =p
Current Boards : Apple m0116 (Salmon Alps), B.Face (Mx Clears), Filco Tkl (Mx Blues), HHKB Pro JP (Topre), Jd45 (78g Zealios), KBParadise v60 (Gateron Yellows), KBParadise v60 (Matias Quiet Click), Kbt Pure (Kailh Bronze), Leopold FC660M (Mx Browns), Minidox (Mod-H), Pok3r (62g Zealios)

Offline Sinzz

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Re: New 60% board... whatever it is called.
« Reply #4 on: Fri, 16 November 2012, 05:10:44 »
YES! More 60% love! I feel like the modifiers are a bit small, but I'm definitely excited for the layout with the Arrow keys. Finding a spacebar that size though will be difficult... will keep my eye on this thread though just in case!
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Offline laffindude

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Re: New 60% board... whatever it is called.
« Reply #5 on: Fri, 16 November 2012, 05:11:19 »
It'll be a complete board. While I didn't sign any NDA or had any verbal agreement with the guy who lemme borrow this real quick, there are some stuff probably not kosher to talk about. Since, 1 it is still an engineering sample 2, I am not supposed to have my hands on it ;). Note the key right next to the right Fn, then the side print on the tilde. It is what you think it is.

Offline G.C.W.

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Re: New 60% board... whatever it is called.
« Reply #6 on: Fri, 16 November 2012, 05:55:05 »
Poker II

and the winner iiiiis....

Offline Sinzz

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New 60% board... whatever it is called.
« Reply #7 on: Fri, 16 November 2012, 06:00:22 »
You can also see the word KBC on the spacebar.  Exciting news though!

Weren't there supposed to be two pokers coming out soon? Wonder what the other looks like...
« Last Edit: Fri, 16 November 2012, 06:04:57 by Sinzz »
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Offline MissMurd3r84

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Re: New 60% board... whatever it is called.
« Reply #8 on: Fri, 16 November 2012, 06:03:26 »
Ah maybe it is good that I just turned down the chance to buy a Poker ;)
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Offline G.C.W.

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Re: New 60% board... whatever it is called.
« Reply #9 on: Fri, 16 November 2012, 06:15:09 »
What are the 15ms , 0.1s and 0.5s for? What about the pn key? pmode??

Offline laffindude

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Re: New 60% board... whatever it is called.
« Reply #10 on: Fri, 16 November 2012, 06:20:28 »
Timing between keypresses. I thought it was obvious P stands for program mode ;o You can use macros on the programmable layer.

Offline pitashen

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Re: New 60% board... whatever it is called.
« Reply #11 on: Fri, 16 November 2012, 07:07:52 »
Doesn't look like it will fit my cherry key set. Fail :(  but thanks for sharing! Which community is developing it? is it the rumored poker 2?
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Offline laffindude

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Re: New 60% board... whatever it is called.
« Reply #12 on: Fri, 16 November 2012, 07:20:52 »
Honestly, don't know to either questions. Possibly is. Given that it has a KBC logo... may be it is a project initiated by KBC /Sherlock ;o
I did hear about the board about a month ago from another source, so I have my reasons to think it is not a KBT project. I could be wrong of course.

Offline Zokudu

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Re: New 60% board... whatever it is called.
« Reply #13 on: Fri, 16 November 2012, 08:26:58 »
Am i crazy or does that look like the CM Font that everyone complains about?
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Offline OrpheusX

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Re: New 60% board... whatever it is called.
« Reply #14 on: Fri, 16 November 2012, 08:29:56 »
I realize this is an engineering sample lent out on the down low but ... did you get any idea when they were expecting to start production?

I've been agonizing over what to get to replace my HHK Lite2 and thought I'd narrowed down to a Race (preferred for the dedicated arrow keys but harder to find with the right combination of switch and backlight color) or a Pure (easier to find but a little less desirable given it's layout. ) Now I'm wondering if I ought to wait even longer for what looks to be a better option.



Offline kaiserreich

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Re: New 60% board... whatever it is called.
« Reply #15 on: Fri, 16 November 2012, 08:48:35 »
Finally, something about the new POKER.
But, I still like the 1st iteration better.

Offline pasph

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Re: New 60% board... whatever it is called.
« Reply #16 on: Fri, 16 November 2012, 08:49:53 »
Please:ISO and a plate like the phantom (swapping switches easily)
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Offline laffindude

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Re: New 60% board... whatever it is called.
« Reply #17 on: Fri, 16 November 2012, 08:58:32 »
I believe it is due to start production early next year. When it'll actually go into production is anyone's guess ;)

Also, I should mention that I don't work in the industry, nor do I have any financial interest with this board or any boards. An acquaintance knows I would be interested in this board and passed it along. I would be lying if I said I wouldn't try to claim an engineering sample after people are done with them. I'd probably still buy one anyways.

Please:ISO and a plate like the phantom (swapping switches easily)
Phantom plates are not going to happen on production boards. They don't even want you opening the board with those warranty stickers. I'll pass the suggestion along though.
« Last Edit: Fri, 16 November 2012, 09:00:26 by laffindude »

Offline hcry4

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Re: New 60% board... whatever it is called.
« Reply #18 on: Fri, 16 November 2012, 09:16:20 »
Very nice. New keyboards to collect.

Offline daerid

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Re: New 60% board... whatever it is called.
« Reply #19 on: Fri, 16 November 2012, 10:14:09 »
Plate mount 60%? *DROOL*

Offline FoxWolf1

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Re: New 60% board... whatever it is called.
« Reply #20 on: Fri, 16 November 2012, 11:31:09 »
Some of the details of the layout seem a bit sub-optimal to me...

Why put PgUp and PgDn on J and M instead of on the arrow keys, for instance? That would result in less finger repositioning when navigating documents. I suppose this could be fixed using the "macro" feature, but still.

Also, what's with the tiny backspace and big delete?

Nice concept, though.
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Offline laffindude

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Re: New 60% board... whatever it is called.
« Reply #21 on: Fri, 16 November 2012, 12:16:20 »
They didn't move anything on the function layer from the Pure, aside from what I mentioned. Fn+arrow keys are for LED control on LED version. (Well, I guess they did move the LED control.)

It would be nice if I could swap delete with backspace.

Offline SmallFry

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Re: New 60% board... whatever it is called.
« Reply #22 on: Fri, 16 November 2012, 12:30:43 »
I don't like it much, but to each their own. Hope it works well for you!

Offline esoomenona

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Re: New 60% board... whatever it is called.
« Reply #23 on: Fri, 16 November 2012, 12:39:06 »
I don't like it much, but to each their own. Hope it works well for you!
Same here. Might as well be a block of 1x keys...

Offline tjcaustin

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Re: New 60% board... whatever it is called.
« Reply #24 on: Fri, 16 November 2012, 19:17:19 »
Looks decent.

Offline LollyWater

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Re: New 60% board... whatever it is called.
« Reply #25 on: Fri, 16 November 2012, 21:05:30 »
And I was going to buy my TKL today then you have to show me this. The Poker with dedicated arrow keys.

Offline jdcarpe

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Re: New 60% board... whatever it is called.
« Reply #26 on: Fri, 16 November 2012, 22:07:31 »
And I was going to buy my TKL today then you have to show me this. The Poker with dedicated arrow keys.

Get your TKL. That one is pre-production. You'll be able to get a GH60 (fully programmable, BTW) before you can get the new Vortex 60% I bet.
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Offline MissMurd3r84

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Re: New 60% board... whatever it is called.
« Reply #27 on: Fri, 16 November 2012, 22:18:24 »
And I was going to buy my TKL today then you have to show me this. The Poker with dedicated arrow keys.

Get your TKL. That one is pre-production. You'll be able to get a GH60 (fully programmable, BTW) before you can get the new Vortex 60% I bet.
Is the GH60 going to be pre-made or will we need to make it ourselves?
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Offline jdcarpe

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Re: New 60% board... whatever it is called.
« Reply #28 on: Fri, 16 November 2012, 22:21:06 »
DIY, but if you don't want to solder your own switches, I'm sure some people will be offering up services for cheap.
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Offline alaricljs

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Re: New 60% board... whatever it is called.
« Reply #29 on: Fri, 16 November 2012, 22:21:13 »
The plan is for it to be a DIY like the Korean boards, SMD complete, switches are DIY.  I don't know about a case yet tho.
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Offline SmallFry

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Re: New 60% board... whatever it is called.
« Reply #30 on: Fri, 16 November 2012, 22:21:40 »
DIY.

Offline TheProfosist

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Re: New 60% board... whatever it is called.
« Reply #31 on: Sat, 17 November 2012, 02:52:08 »
There seems to be a bunch wrong with that layout...

Offline laffindude

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Re: New 60% board... whatever it is called.
« Reply #32 on: Sat, 17 November 2012, 03:06:50 »
I don't like it much, but to each their own. Hope it works well for you!
Same here. Might as well be a block of 1x keys...

I don't disagree. Instead of 2x1.25 and 5x1, they could have done 6x1.25 and kept the spacebar/arrow cluster. Lwin/Fn could be a dip switch option like the previous boards

Offline TheQsanity

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Re: New 60% board... whatever it is called.
« Reply #33 on: Sat, 17 November 2012, 03:34:11 »
Soooo many 60 boards!!!! Can't have them all!!!
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Offline GMC

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Re: New 60% board... whatever it is called.
« Reply #34 on: Sat, 17 November 2012, 05:34:01 »
Reckon I'd replace my pure with one of those...
But I'd want feng to get another run of Ti spacebars that would fit these
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Offline rbo289

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Re: New 60% board... whatever it is called.
« Reply #35 on: Sat, 17 November 2012, 06:49:24 »
Ohh yeah! As a swede, I can verify that an ISO layout would be lovely!

Offline IvanIvanovich

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Re: New 60% board... whatever it is called.
« Reply #36 on: Sat, 17 November 2012, 12:45:53 »
I guess this is the Poker2Pro that was rumored to be in development? I won't be getting it, but I can see how it may appeal to some.

Offline laffindude

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Re: New 60% board... whatever it is called.
« Reply #37 on: Mon, 19 November 2012, 22:32:59 »
I may be biased since I got to play with it, but I like the board more than I thought I would. I showed the board to a local enthusiast. He also thought the layout is odd, though we don't think it is unusable. We threw around a few ideas (the 6x1.25 + 4.5 space bar + arrows in particular we agreed on), but I don't think people would agree on what key goes where. The programmable layer would be better if it is accessible from both hands. The hardware programming thing is a bit fiddly, but works. Software programming may be better, but hardware programmable layer is pretty useful to use on the fly. The programmable layer can be locked on to use as alternative layout or as a macroboard. I am sure people can think of more creative ways to use it than I can. Fn layer not being programmable is a bummer though. Then again, go with a GH60 if you need that much flexibility in programming.

Offline daerid

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Re: New 60% board... whatever it is called.
« Reply #38 on: Tue, 20 November 2012, 12:41:01 »
That's the one thing I wish the HHKB had: (soft|hard|firm)ware to support remapping. It would be my perfect board then.

Offline LollyWater

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Re: New 60% board... whatever it is called.
« Reply #39 on: Tue, 20 November 2012, 13:10:25 »
It looks perfect. The only thing I would change is the modifier row/spacebar. If you're buying a POKER do you really need a function key? Why not just buy a 75% or TKL? With the original POKER it made sense. But does anyone really use the F-row nowadays? Just my thoughts.

Offline laffindude

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Re: New 60% board... whatever it is called.
« Reply #40 on: Tue, 20 November 2012, 13:40:53 »
Yes. F3 find again, Alt-F4, F5, F6 = adress bar, F7 caret browsing. F8-12 I use them in games. 60% layout brings them closer to for touch typing them without taking hand out of homerow position.

Offline daerid

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Re: New 60% board... whatever it is called.
« Reply #41 on: Tue, 20 November 2012, 15:46:38 »
Good god I use the F keys all the time. I mean, alllll the time. Especially F2, F5, F7, and F9-F12 (Visual Studio requires proficiency in these).

@laffindude: good tip about F6, didn't know that one.

Offline LollyWater

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Re: New 60% board... whatever it is called.
« Reply #42 on: Tue, 20 November 2012, 16:29:48 »
Wow, I feel so left out.

Offline Sinzz

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Re: New 60% board... whatever it is called.
« Reply #43 on: Tue, 20 November 2012, 18:10:19 »
I actually use the F rows as well.. :)
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Offline tinyblob

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Re: New 60% board... whatever it is called.
« Reply #44 on: Sat, 24 November 2012, 17:26:36 »
I just want to +1 interest in a UK ISO layout!

Offline laffindude

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Re: New 60% board... whatever it is called.
« Reply #45 on: Tue, 18 December 2012, 04:27:28 »
http://kbtpure.com Don't want to hotlink the picture, so go look at the header picture. I believe that is what I had my hands on. I did see line drawings of the ISO versions. Just small changes to the front row, but still a mess. I did give some feedback about that, though I am not sure if they'll unbork it. It is due for production really soon, so my money is on no. I'll probably get a production sample (ANSI ish one), but I'll see if I can get ISO and JP layout too.

But ya. I am actually hearing rumor of 2 other 60% boards. I heard a rumor about a Chinese 60%. May be the Poker2? Of course, it could be just confused people talking out of their butts. The other one I heard very little about. Gonna dig some more about that one since there is at least 1 sample board.

Offline Sinzz

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New 60% board... whatever it is called.
« Reply #46 on: Tue, 25 December 2012, 17:48:10 »
Awaiting more news on these 60% boards!! So the picture of the keyboard is probably the pure pro. I can't wait to hear more about the poker 2 and the others as well. I realize how much I need the arrow keys after giving the poker a try.
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Offline oneproduct

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Re: New 60% board... whatever it is called.
« Reply #47 on: Tue, 25 December 2012, 19:35:23 »
I think that they keep getting these Fn layers so wrong. The original Poker was the closest to getting it right. The great thing about the Poker's Fn layer was that the Fn layer arrows keys were more convenient than dedicated arrow keys. Arrow keys as well as Page Up/Down, Home and End should be near to the homerow, either on the homerow itself, as inverted Ts, or one towards the middle like Vim's HJKL style where you don't use your pinky. Then you can just hold an Fn key placed to the side of the spacebar with your thumb and move around the cursor without having to move your hand away from the homerow.

The HHKB also annoys me because of this. To get at everything on the Fn layer you have to shift your right hand. I guess that the "problem" with this new Poker 2 or Pure Pro, whatever it is, is that instead of trying to appeal to the "efficiency" people, they are trying to appeal to the "compact/minimalist" people. I'll be sticking with my original Poker, though I might have to get a GH60 so I can finally get the Fn layer that I'd like.

Edit: Just for fun, here's my idea for a 60% Fn layer from another thread (only the markings on the 33 inner 1x unit keys and spacebar are Fn layer):



I liked Turbinia's embedded numpad idea, but didn't like constraining the 789 to match those on the number row, preferring to keep the F# keys there instead and your hand on the homerow. Period and 0 are easily reachable by the index finger, + and - by the pinky, divide and multiply are less common so are a bit harder to reach. Fn+spacebar for enter is useful both when using the numpad and during normal typing.

Arrows are on ESDF (the equivalent of WASD, but in homerow position) and Home and End easily reachable (think how often you use Q and E when using WASD in games). Page Up/Down are on the two keys that the left index finger can reach easily. Backspace is on homerow and delete is where it is on the Poker, it's position on the Z key reminiscent of "undo." The idea here is you press right Fn with your right thumb and keep both your hands in homerow position. This is more efficient than dedicated arrow keys in the bottom right corner, which require you to move your hand.

Left side Fn key being where caps lock is allows you to use the arrows with one hand if you need, and lets you use the embedded numpad comfortably. Alternatively, you could swap it with control, but I think it's better where it is, and control wouldn't be used as often as Fn would likely be. I personally like left Windows as it's useful for Win+# to launch programs, Win+R, Win+E and Win+D notably. Alt Gr replaces right Windows for those who need it for special characters.

Tilde can go where right control would normally be, as I don't think people use right control that often. That lets Esc be in the top corner as expected. Insert, print screen and pause/break can go wherever you like.
« Last Edit: Tue, 25 December 2012, 21:11:58 by oneproduct »
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Offline laffindude

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Re: New 60% board... whatever it is called.
« Reply #48 on: Tue, 25 December 2012, 21:35:06 »
Wrong is just a matter of perspective. I don't think people will ever agree on what is the correct layout for function layer. For example, I hate the WASD arrow keys on the Poker. I much prefer them in the Pure location. Same with Page up and down. I like how these navigation stuff is all clustered together, usable with 1 hand.

Speaking of 60%, I did hear more about the other 60%. It is still probably too early to talk about it. I've asked 3 people to see if they'll get me a sample. We'll see which one comes through. If what I am hearing make into production boards, I rather have a few of these than the one in the OP.

Offline oneproduct

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Re: New 60% board... whatever it is called.
« Reply #49 on: Tue, 25 December 2012, 21:49:57 »
Yea, that's why I put "problem" in quotation marks like that. However, I find it odd that you would say that you don't like the WASD arrows on the Poker, as it is exactly the same as where the Pure's are, but on the left hand instead of the right, and usable with one hand if you have the left side Fn dip switch on in exactly the same way.

The Pure's Fn layer is okay, the only thing that I don't like is that using only one hand pressing Home or End with your right thumb on Fn is too tight of a curl.

In general though, when I talk about "right" Fn layers though, I'm arguing from the point of efficiency (sensible hand placement, usually focused around the homerow and in the picture I put above, accessible with one hand if needed) and common sense (eg I'd always make sure that Page Up/Down make sense relative to each other and same with Home/End). Anyways, I'll be looking forward to the GH60. Whenever there's talk about 60% keyboards, it's always arguments over the Fn layer and not having it programmable seems to be a big fault that I think more producers of these keyboards should start to address if they're going to be so common.

Still, the plate mounting and the dedicated arrows on this will surely appeal to some people.
« Last Edit: Tue, 25 December 2012, 21:51:51 by oneproduct »
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