Vendor/User Feedback System

[HoffmanMyster]

Edit: This thread was split from this feedback thread, as the discussion exceeded the scope of the initial thread.  Please continue relevant discussion here. 


I am personally a fan of having a good feedback system of some sort.  The No Shaming rule was implemented before I became a mod, and any proposed changes were overruled.  I don't know if we will be successful in implementing something of this sort, but again, I am in favor of it. 

There are a lot of rumors/hearsay that end up floating around behind closed doors anyway, and not everyone is privy to information, and maybe it's not even good info - a public thread(s) to discuss would help, IMO.

Is there a list of people to avoid buying/selling to here?

If you have to ask, you probably shouldn't trust too many people.

I don't wish to speak out publicly against people, but ask around and people will say a lot more in private.

I know before, witch hunting (or even shaming) is not allowed on GH. There are many people who are getting away with it. (because there's no Report a Scammer section) or anything.

I still don’t understand why GH don’t stickied a list of people who had scammed before. That would surely helped new and old people a lot more. Now I had to be wary of even vendor status, sigh.

Agreed, I just don't think GH can maintain a policy of "hands-off" with scamming. I'm not saying they need to like take responsibility for anything, but as you said, maybe a little list of people who are agreed upon as scammers by multiple accounts would be nice.

[digi]

I am personally a fan of having a good feedback system of some sort.  The No Shaming rule was implemented before I became a mod, and any proposed changes were overruled.  I don't know if we will be successful in implementing something of this sort, but again, I am in favor of it. 

There are a lot of rumors/hearsay that end up floating around behind closed doors anyway, and not everyone is privy to information, and maybe it's not even good info - a public thread(s) to discuss would help, IMO.

 

Every forum I'm on (outside of GH) has a Feedback thread, makes it easy to search the username before you do a transaction.

If GH is going to keep a Classifieds section, it only makes sense to add a Feedback thread.

These are happy thumbs:

 

[romevi]

I am personally a fan of having a good feedback system of some sort.  The No Shaming rule was implemented before I became a mod, and any proposed changes were overruled.  I don't know if we will be successful in implementing something of this sort, but again, I am in favor of it. 

There are a lot of rumors/hearsay that end up floating around behind closed doors anyway, and not everyone is privy to information, and maybe it's not even good info - a public thread(s) to discuss would help, IMO.

 

Every forum I'm on (outside of GH) has a Feedback thread, makes it easy to search the username before you do a transaction.

If GH is going to keep a Classifieds section, it only makes sense to add a Feedback thread.

These are happy thumbs:

 

We should have sad thumbs.

[digi]

I am personally a fan of having a good feedback system of some sort.  The No Shaming rule was implemented before I became a mod, and any proposed changes were overruled.  I don't know if we will be successful in implementing something of this sort, but again, I am in favor of it. 

There are a lot of rumors/hearsay that end up floating around behind closed doors anyway, and not everyone is privy to information, and maybe it's not even good info - a public thread(s) to discuss would help, IMO.

 

Every forum I'm on (outside of GH) has a Feedback thread, makes it easy to search the username before you do a transaction.

If GH is going to keep a Classifieds section, it only makes sense to add a Feedback thread.

These are happy thumbs:

 

We should have sad thumbs.

You keep your witchcraft to yourself.... pal.

[romevi]

I am personally a fan of having a good feedback system of some sort.  The No Shaming rule was implemented before I became a mod, and any proposed changes were overruled.  I don't know if we will be successful in implementing something of this sort, but again, I am in favor of it. 

There are a lot of rumors/hearsay that end up floating around behind closed doors anyway, and not everyone is privy to information, and maybe it's not even good info - a public thread(s) to discuss would help, IMO.

 

Every forum I'm on (outside of GH) has a Feedback thread, makes it easy to search the username before you do a transaction.

If GH is going to keep a Classifieds section, it only makes sense to add a Feedback thread.

These are happy thumbs:

 

We should have sad thumbs.

You keep your witchcraft to yourself.... pal.

[digi]

[livingspeedbump]

Show Image

This thread brings up some interesting things though. I mean, it definitely seems like Seth is behind. But there are a lot of vendors that are much further behind, and hardly give updates either or do an update with some promise that isn't kept. In some other vending threads people seem totally fine with how long things take, even encourage the vendors to take all the time they want. Like here, I often feel like some displeased people are often afraid to speak up as well, which if done correctly shouldn't be looked down upon. There definitely isnt a consistent level of judgement or accountability by the users for all the vendors, its quite uneven honestly.

I know that each form of feedback system has its issues, and cant be abused as well. Obviously the thing to avoid is people hating a vendor, and just downvoting everything. Votes should probably be annon. and limited to 1 for each buy. Finding a way to let each buyer leave a 1-10 rating on different aspects of the buy (quality, product came as described, overall experience, whatever) without any additional text, and showing the results somewhere on the vendors page would be nice.

Also, I don't think it would be bad to add something like "at least one update is needed per week for running buys" would be good. A lot of the issue with these buys is not that vendors are being malicious, its the silence and lack of updates that really makes people upset. I know some vendors aren't businesses, but I also think a certain amount of responsibility comes when you take someones money, period. So I think making vendors keep updating on sales while they are active seems very fair, its not like once a week is hard at all.

[inanis]

Show Image

This thread brings up some interesting things though. I mean, it definitely seems like Seth is behind. But there are a lot of vendors that are much further behind, and hardly give updates either or do an update with some promise that isn't kept. In some other vending threads people seem totally fine with how long things take, even encourage the vendors to take all the time they want. Like here, I often feel like some displeased people are often afraid to speak up as well, which if done correctly shouldn't be looked down upon. There definitely isnt a consistent level of judgement or accountability by the users for all the vendors, its quite uneven honestly.

I know that each form of feedback system has its issues, and cant be abused as well. Obviously the thing to avoid is people hating a vendor, and just downvoting everything. Votes should probably be annon. and limited to 1 for each buy. Finding a way to let each buyer leave a 1-10 rating on different aspects of the buy (quality, product came as described, overall experience, whatever) without any additional text, and showing the results somewhere on the vendors page would be nice.

Also, I don't think it would be bad to add something like "at least one update is needed per week for running buys" would be good. A lot of the issue with these buys is not that vendors are being malicious, its the silence and lack of updates that really makes people upset. I know some vendors aren't businesses, but I also think a certain amount of responsibility comes when you take someones money, period. So I think making vendors keep updating on sales while they are active seems very fair, its not like once a week is hard at all.

I agree with everything in this post.

[digi]

Show Image

This thread brings up some interesting things though. I mean, it definitely seems like Seth is behind. But there are a lot of vendors that are much further behind, and hardly give updates either or do an update with some promise that isn't kept. In some other vending threads people seem totally fine with how long things take, even encourage the vendors to take all the time they want. Like here, I often feel like some displeased people are often afraid to speak up as well, which if done correctly shouldn't be looked down upon. There definitely isnt a consistent level of judgement or accountability by the users for all the vendors, its quite uneven honestly.

I know that each form of feedback system has its issues, and cant be abused as well. Obviously the thing to avoid is people hating a vendor, and just downvoting everything. Votes should probably be annon. and limited to 1 for each buy. Finding a way to let each buyer leave a 1-10 rating on different aspects of the buy (quality, product came as described, overall experience, whatever) without any additional text, and showing the results somewhere on the vendors page would be nice.

Also, I don't think it would be bad to add something like "at least one update is needed per week for running buys" would be good. A lot of the issue with these buys is not that vendors are being malicious, its the silence and lack of updates that really makes people upset. I know some vendors aren't businesses, but I also think a certain amount of responsibility comes when you take someones money, period. So I think making vendors keep updating on sales while they are active seems very fair, its not like once a week is hard at all.

+2

Side note: Livingspeedbump is THE fastest shipper I've bought from btw

actions > words

[HoffmanMyster]

Also, I don't think it would be bad to add something like "at least one update is needed per week for running buys" would be good. A lot of the issue with these buys is not that vendors are being malicious, its the silence and lack of updates that really makes people upset. I know some vendors aren't businesses, but I also think a certain amount of responsibility comes when you take someones money, period. So I think making vendors keep updating on sales while they are active seems very fair, its not like once a week is hard at all.

(This is getting a bit out of scope for this thread, so I apologize for the derail, but I think this is a good discussion)

One issue I see with the above proposal is how to enforce it.  I can no more easily force an organizer to post an update than I can force them to post a package.  And previous group buys are already taken into consideration before allowing an organizer to begin a new buy, so if they are lacking updates we are (ideally) already taking that into consideration - the caveat being that we can't read every single post of every thread, so we have imperfect information.  But the point still stands that even if we do implement such a rule, how do we enforce it?  What do we do if there is not a post every week?  Shutting down the buy at that point doesn't help anything.  :|

All that said, I do agree with your other points. 

[romevi]

Show Image

This thread brings up some interesting things though. I mean, it definitely seems like Seth is behind. But there are a lot of vendors that are much further behind, and hardly give updates either or do an update with some promise that isn't kept. In some other vending threads people seem totally fine with how long things take, even encourage the vendors to take all the time they want. Like here, I often feel like some displeased people are often afraid to speak up as well, which if done correctly shouldn't be looked down upon. There definitely isnt a consistent level of judgement or accountability by the users for all the vendors, its quite uneven honestly.

I know that each form of feedback system has its issues, and cant be abused as well. Obviously the thing to avoid is people hating a vendor, and just downvoting everything. Votes should probably be annon. and limited to 1 for each buy. Finding a way to let each buyer leave a 1-10 rating on different aspects of the buy (quality, product came as described, overall experience, whatever) without any additional text, and showing the results somewhere on the vendors page would be nice.

Also, I don't think it would be bad to add something like "at least one update is needed per week for running buys" would be good. A lot of the issue with these buys is not that vendors are being malicious, its the silence and lack of updates that really makes people upset. I know some vendors aren't businesses, but I also think a certain amount of responsibility comes when you take someones money, period. So I think making vendors keep updating on sales while they are active seems very fair, its not like once a week is hard at all.

+2

Side note: Livingspeedbump is THE fastest shipper I've bought from btw

actions > words

+3

Unless you run into an unforeseen incident, running and helping a GB means you'll have to prepare all the snags regular life may get cause. Family, jobs, etc shouldn't be an extreme excuse because they are constant and should already be considered when prepping for the GB. Something like sudden illness is completely understandable.
If the GB really takes a toll then finish it as quickly as possible and don't run another one until you are ready. Or, if possible, hand it off to someone else.

I have a family. I have a job. I know how much work running a side business can be so that's why I quit it. If I'm behind on an eBay sale I'll contact the person to let them know and try and work something out.

Anyway, those are my menial words.

I like the weekly updates, but I can see some GB runners getting into the habit of posting “no new updates" or something, and then using it as an excuse.
But I guess we'll cross that bridge if and when we get there.

[romevi]

Also, I don't think it would be bad to add something like "at least one update is needed per week for running buys" would be good. A lot of the issue with these buys is not that vendors are being malicious, its the silence and lack of updates that really makes people upset. I know some vendors aren't businesses, but I also think a certain amount of responsibility comes when you take someones money, period. So I think making vendors keep updating on sales while they are active seems very fair, its not like once a week is hard at all.

(This is getting a bit out of scope for this thread, so I apologize for the derail, but I think this is a good discussion)

One issue I see with the above proposal is how to enforce it.  I can no more easily force an organizer to post an update than I can force them to post a package.  And previous group buys are already taken into consideration before allowing an organizer to begin a new buy, so if they are lacking updates we are (ideally) already taking that into consideration - the caveat being that we can't read every single post of every thread, so we have imperfect information.  But the point still stands that even if we do implement such a rule, how do we enforce it?  What do we do if there is not a post every week?  Shutting down the buy at that point doesn't help anything.  :|

All that said, I do agree with your other points. 

Yeah, it seems a new thread is needed for this.

GH wasn't created to run GBs. Having the forum platform obviously isn't the best solution, so obviously a new platform is needed for GBs.
But I have no idea what or how to create one.

[livingspeedbump]

+2

Side note: Livingspeedbump is THE fastest shipper I've bought from btw

actions > words

I feel mortally obligated to someone when I owe them money/goods though. This is part of the reason I DONT personally run GB's. They would be too much stress for me, and I know I would just shut down if things went wrong on my end. It is an understandable response, nobody likes letting others down, but I never take anything with money involved lightly.

This is also why I really get a bit annoyed when people sidestep criticism with the "im not a business" line. Either A) charge for your time and become a business or B) make it abundantly clear with constant updates what is holding you up or that you plan on shipping taking months to accomplish if things don't go as planned. Running these group buys take a TON of work and logistics, and while we are all grateful for the time people put into them, a certain level of accountability is needed.

Honesty, transparency, and communication on the vendors end are the real keys I think.

[livingspeedbump]

I like the weekly updates, but I can see some GB runners getting into the habit of posting “no new updates" or something, and then using it as an excuse.
But I guess we'll cross that bridge if and when we get there.

Yeah, that could definitely happen. But I think many go MIA and don't show face at all on the forums for far too long. At least they would have to show face and deal with what people are saying, and hopefully answer questions people have for them. I mean if a vendor said "no new updates" after a week of people asking "hey tried to get up with you via PM and heard nothing, was wondering why the item hasnt shipped yet?" on their forum, that would obviously be a reflection of how they run their buys, and hopefully lead people away from every buying from them again.

Obviously buyers are always at risk here, and while I absolutely think GB leaders are responsible for delivering the products, I would also always encourage buyers never to spend any amount of $$ in a buy that they couldn't afford to downright lose, because that is always a possibility in these, from any vendor.

[livingspeedbump]

nice to see the new discussion! thanks hoff 

[swimmingbird]

I feel mortally obligated to someone when I owe them money/goods though. This is part of the reason I DONT personally run GB's. They would be too much stress for me, and I know I would just shut down if things went wrong on my end. It is an understandable response, nobody likes letting others down, but I never take anything with money involved lightly.

I feel exactly the same way

[Zeal]

Show Image

This thread brings up some interesting things though. I mean, it definitely seems like Seth is behind. But there are a lot of vendors that are much further behind, and hardly give updates either or do an update with some promise that isn't kept. In some other vending threads people seem totally fine with how long things take, even encourage the vendors to take all the time they want. Like here, I often feel like some displeased people are often afraid to speak up as well, which if done correctly shouldn't be looked down upon. There definitely isnt a consistent level of judgement or accountability by the users for all the vendors, its quite uneven honestly.

I know that each form of feedback system has its issues, and cant be abused as well. Obviously the thing to avoid is people hating a vendor, and just downvoting everything. Votes should probably be annon. and limited to 1 for each buy. Finding a way to let each buyer leave a 1-10 rating on different aspects of the buy (quality, product came as described, overall experience, whatever) without any additional text, and showing the results somewhere on the vendors page would be nice.

Also, I don't think it would be bad to add something like "at least one update is needed per week for running buys" would be good. A lot of the issue with these buys is not that vendors are being malicious, its the silence and lack of updates that really makes people upset. I know some vendors aren't businesses, but I also think a certain amount of responsibility comes when you take someones money, period. So I think making vendors keep updating on sales while they are active seems very fair, its not like once a week is hard at all.

+1

Maybe we can incorporate something that includes: shipping speed once order is placed, communication, (email/PM reply times?), etc.

[digi]

We're movin' in the right direction fellas!

[livingspeedbump]

Show Image

This thread brings up some interesting things though. I mean, it definitely seems like Seth is behind. But there are a lot of vendors that are much further behind, and hardly give updates either or do an update with some promise that isn't kept. In some other vending threads people seem totally fine with how long things take, even encourage the vendors to take all the time they want. Like here, I often feel like some displeased people are often afraid to speak up as well, which if done correctly shouldn't be looked down upon. There definitely isnt a consistent level of judgement or accountability by the users for all the vendors, its quite uneven honestly.

I know that each form of feedback system has its issues, and cant be abused as well. Obviously the thing to avoid is people hating a vendor, and just downvoting everything. Votes should probably be annon. and limited to 1 for each buy. Finding a way to let each buyer leave a 1-10 rating on different aspects of the buy (quality, product came as described, overall experience, whatever) without any additional text, and showing the results somewhere on the vendors page would be nice.

Also, I don't think it would be bad to add something like "at least one update is needed per week for running buys" would be good. A lot of the issue with these buys is not that vendors are being malicious, its the silence and lack of updates that really makes people upset. I know some vendors aren't businesses, but I also think a certain amount of responsibility comes when you take someones money, period. So I think making vendors keep updating on sales while they are active seems very fair, its not like once a week is hard at all.

+1

Maybe we can incorporate something that includes: shipping speed once order is placed, communication, (email/PM reply times?), etc.

All great ideas i think! Not only will this help the community show who is bad with communication/shipping out on time, but it will also really show who is great at those as well. I definitely want this to also give credit where credit is due for people that really push themselves to get items out in a timely manner.

[prava]

(This is getting a bit out of scope for this thread, so I apologize for the derail, but I think this is a good discussion)

One issue I see with the above proposal is how to enforce it.  I can no more easily force an organizer to post an update than I can force them to post a package.  And previous group buys are already taken into consideration before allowing an organizer to begin a new buy, so if they are lacking updates we are (ideally) already taking that into consideration - the caveat being that we can't read every single post of every thread, so we have imperfect information.  But the point still stands that even if we do implement such a rule, how do we enforce it?  What do we do if there is not a post every week?  Shutting down the buy at that point doesn't help anything.  :|

All that said, I do agree with your other points. 

Hi!

I'm not exactly a power user here, but I have done my fair share of buying (not selling, 'cause shipping from my little island is too expensive for EU, and too complicated, so I only sell to spaniards), both from users/vendors and from GB's. So far I'm very happy with every single transaction.

Still, GH needs to evolve, needs to get better. The rule "caveat emptor" makes absolutely no sense at all, as it only allows scammers to do whatever they want, without consequence, without ever being liable. At the same time I'm not saying that people should be free to shame others... nope, that will not work either. But you can't ask people to find their way without having a system in place that accounts for something. So, caveat emptor without a transaction registry makes no sense. And only protects scammers.

In my experience, as a former moderator of one of the most prestigious buying/selling computer-related forums in Spain (for starters, its invite-only), with a transaction success of well over 99,9% (not a made up statistic, since transaction registry is open for all registered users), transparency is the key to everything, and transparency is something I have always felt a bit lacking in GH.
In said forum we do have a Hall of Fame (HOF). Such Hall of Fame contains every transaction every member has ever done in the forum, and those are added by the other party of said transaction. So, the seller votes the buyer, and the other way around. Votes are either positive, neutral or negative, and contain a link to the buy or sell thread (and those threads can't be removed, its required that the OP never modifies them, not even the price of the products announced. We do it like this for future reference and accountability), a brief name of the product, and a brief commentary of the transaction. This HOF isn't even a subforum or something like that... its the spine of the whole community. An added layer on top of the forum, something that every registered user can get into and look as far as 2005 (and not more because between server migrations and other somethings were lost forever). In total, the HOF has almost 100.000 registered votes (so, 50.000 recorded transactions).

How did the staff deal with it all? Well, the rules are very very strongly enforced. IE we are transparent until we aren't, and not complying gets you banned very quickly, and we operated like this.

a) If there is a problem with a transaction or user: You can't post about it. You have to contact the staff first. Of course... since the staff is formed by around 5 members sometimes such pm's regarding transaction problems weren't answered... and then a thread was created. That is an exception, and that was ok.

b) After the unhappy user contacts the staff (again, there is no shaming in the forum, so the community isn't aware of the disputes that are ongoing, they only get to see the resolution, via the votes in the HOF), the staff gets in, and decides an agreement. I know that this might be very stepping for some... but it works. Specially when the staff has nothing to gain and everything to lose. Resolutions will never get everybody completely happy, but when an impartial party decides, things tend to be better. I haven't mentioned it but the forum is not liable for anything that might happen in it, whether the staff decides upon a dispute or not. Its a free platform that users are offered at no cost, and the staff is there to help should something go wrong.

c) At the end of every transaction, the users can vote each other. Before, the staff would never ever change a vote in the HOF (mind you, you don't want a single red in your list. Its very very very bad for your image, because there are very few negative votes in the list... as users that lie or cheat are banned from the platform quickly), but we found out that some users leveraged their vote in order to gain something off of it. IE "you complained to the staff the the object you bought does not work as intended, instead of going through me. I'll downvote you". So, we decided that the staff can eliminate a vote if it was wrongfully done. IE, you can't downvote a buyer (whose job is simply to pay you asap and send you the shipping adress) simply because he rightfully voted you negative. And we punished severely those who tried to abuse the system.

All in all, the community is so fair and square that you basically can buy or sell from or to anybody (even new users have to be godfathered in... and that means some sort of accountability) without having to worry too much. But if you want to worry you can simply look at the HOF and check it out. So...I know GH can't do that. I have no idea how much work it took to create the HOF, or maintain it... but I'm just showing what other communities do, to deal with their feedback. I do know that such transparency means a lot of security, because GH is riddled with users being unhappy about some transactions... but you don't get to see that 99% of the times, because people know that shaming ain't ok and, even worse, part of the community "understands" and supports other users that take months to send a simple product. That ain't ok. The system shouldn't be protecting, let alone promoting, users that do not comply with the transactions they have agreed to. Of course it is tempting to start a GB (it is, heck you make money from those), but don't do it unless you can really do it. The staff should have their trigger fingers ready. At least hand some severe warnings so that people see that there is some accountability.

For starters, I'm fine with GH mods never stepping into problems or enforcing agreements... but this community needs some transparency, and people should be allowed to know where to look in order to see how does a certain user behave regarding transactions. IMO, a subforum that it contained a single thread per user would be fine. This way, you find the thread of the user you made a transaction with, add a post with your vote, a simple line for the product, your opinions of said transaction, and a link to the original thread. Oh, and having people not delete their threads make everything a lot easier. I still have no idea why do people recycle their threads, its very confusing to see a thread created last year that just got an item added. You start reading users interest and you are like... WTF?!

Note: the forum I mentioned has 0 ads or banners. Nothing. The users can donate if they want to do so, and can also do it to get increased pm capacity and a few other perks. But its a pro-bono community. Well, maybe the admin makes a few cents if we do not account the amount of time he dedicates to maintaining and updating the forum... but all in all, a free community.

[HoffmanMyster]

For starters, I'm fine with GH mods never stepping into problems or enforcing agreements... but this community needs some transparency, and people should be allowed to know where to look in order to see how does a certain user behave regarding transactions. IMO, a subforum that it contained a single thread per user would be fine. This way, you find the thread of the user you made a transaction with, add a post with your vote, a simple line for the product, your opinions of said transaction, and a link to the original thread. Oh, and having people not delete their threads make everything a lot easier. I still have no idea why do people recycle their threads, its very confusing to see a thread created last year that just got an item added. You start reading users interest and you are like... WTF?!

First off, thank you for this post.  You make a lot of great points, and it's valuable input.  I won't respond to each point individually due to the length, but do know that I read it all and appreciate your feedback.

As a sort of general, philosophical response, I'll just say that geekhack has never been a place intended for buying and selling things.  It has evolved to include these aspects to a higher and higher degree, but this aspect of geekhack is not the top priority for the staff - we are a keyboard information/discussion/building forum, first and foremost.  So with that in mind, any sort of system that involves heavy moderator/staff input is very unlikely to be implemented at this time.  However, there are quite a few good ideas floating around that do not cross that line, so I think some steps can be made in the right direction; it'll just be a matter of what happens and how it's implemented. 

[taylordcraig]

Like I said in the other thread. SourceOP and other forums that involve trading online have a feedback thread for each user. After any transaction with that user you just reply in the thread "bought/sold ______ to said user with paypal/trade/whatever and had a positive/negative experience."

[livingspeedbump]

For starters, I'm fine with GH mods never stepping into problems or enforcing agreements... but this community needs some transparency, and people should be allowed to know where to look in order to see how does a certain user behave regarding transactions. IMO, a subforum that it contained a single thread per user would be fine. This way, you find the thread of the user you made a transaction with, add a post with your vote, a simple line for the product, your opinions of said transaction, and a link to the original thread. Oh, and having people not delete their threads make everything a lot easier. I still have no idea why do people recycle their threads, its very confusing to see a thread created last year that just got an item added. You start reading users interest and you are like... WTF?!

Note: the forum I mentioned has 0 ads or banners. Nothing. The users can donate if they want to do so, and can also do it to get increased pm capacity and a few other perks. But its a pro-bono community. Well, maybe the admin makes a few cents if we do not account the amount of time he dedicates to maintaining and updating the forum... but all in all, a free community.

Great feedback! Transparency really is lacking with some vendors/group buys for sure, and is easily my biggest complaint as well.

I also find it curious that HOF is "the spine of the community," where HOFF is the spine of our community here 

I think the main points of concern and moderation should be for GH Vendors/Artisans that have their own subforums. I say this because A) they have been recognized "officially" by GH and given those subforum pages. They also look a lot more official and "safer" to newcomers as well. Given that they have a subforum that inevitably helps with their sales and legitimacy, I think this makes sense.

Each Vendor/Artisan Subform has a feedback thread. This would not be for comments (that gets messy, arguments, people afraid to leave it, don't want to shame, etc) but a Poll/.[/li]

• Did the items arrive in the condition promised?
• Did the items ship on time, if not how long did it take for them to ship?
• Did you have to contact the seller for customer support? How was their support and how long did it take to get a response?
• Overall were you pleased with this seller?

Obviously this isn't complete, a few more questions could be added. But an anonymous poll that was stickied to the top of each vendor/artisan services would be a great place to start I think. Obviously there could be a place to comment if you wanted, but i worry that may derail as well. IDK on that one honestly, they could definitely be useful too.

The second new implementation would be having those vendors/artisans have to give at least one public update a week for any currently running buys. Yeah, some weeks may be slow without any real updates, but a "things on schedule" would even be nice to hear. One of the biggest problems I've had with people in the past is with them going radio silent in the middle of a buy. Eventually everything I've ordered for the most part, has gotten to me. I think its extremely unprofessional when a vendor won't answer PMs and won't give updates, and quite worrisome as well. I really don't think a "1 public update a week" rule is over the top by any means, especially when money is involved.

For community run GB's and classifieds I think things are a bit harder. They don't have the same "official" pages, thus shouldn't be governed by the same rules. For classifieds I don't think there is any changes really needed. Many only sell to friends or known members on there as it is. Past that it is really the buyers responsibility to check into the seller if they are anxious about the buy. If you are really that nervous to use the classifieds to sell/buy, it is probably best to use Ebay or some place where you are more protected. I personally really only sell to friends just to keep any issues from happening, and so far have had absolutely no problems at all there.

[dgneo]

What about adding trading/feedback functionality into the forum itself? I know SMF has a trading plugin that may be useful. It never hurts to have redundancy (such as a feedback thread & an actual built in feedback system).

http://custom.simplemachines.org/mods/?mod=346

[Homenubbie]

Is there a list of GB leaders with 100% Products Delivered On Time Track Records?

[HoffmanMyster]

Is there a list of GB leaders with 100% Products Delivered On Time Track Records?

What is "on time"?

[katushkin]

Is there a list of GB leaders with 100% Products Delivered On Time Track Records?

What is "on time"?

LMAO. Maybe "In my lifetime" works?

[HoffmanMyster]

Is there a list of GB leaders with 100% Products Delivered On Time Track Records?

What is "on time"?

LMAO. Maybe "In my lifetime" works?

It's a serious question though.  Timelines in Group Buys are pretty much made up, you know that.    It's incredibly hard to predict the uncontrollable setbacks incurred by vendors/production, and sorting/shipping can vary a bit too.  The main gripe that people have is with lack of communication, not timelines; hence the question. 

[katushkin]

It's a serious question though.  Timelines in Group Buys are pretty much made up, you know that.    It's incredibly hard to predict the uncontrollable setbacks incurred by vendors/production, and sorting/shipping can vary a bit too.  The main gripe that people have is with lack of communication, not timelines; hence the question. 

True. I think it's probably better to have a "reasonable amount" reputation when it comes to both communication and timeframe. If the delays are out of the runners control, then communication mitigates the impact that has on the community and placates them. So timeframe doesn't really matter in 90% of GBs if the communication is good IMO.

[livingspeedbump]

Is there a list of GB leaders with 100% Products Delivered On Time Track Records?

What is "on time"?

LMAO. Maybe "In my lifetime" works?

It's a serious question though.  Timelines in Group Buys are pretty much made up, you know that.    It's incredibly hard to predict the uncontrollable setbacks incurred by vendors/production, and sorting/shipping can vary a bit too.  The main gripe that people have is with lack of communication, not timelines; hence the question. 

Hm, I think having an estimated timeline is always good, and usually already is given with most GB`s anyways. I think the better thing to start clarifying is how long it will take from receiving the product, to shipping that product. That is where delays really shouldn't happen. If personal stuff comes up, communicate, there are always people willing to help. People sitting on product for months, years, IS a problem.

[livingspeedbump]

It's a serious question though.  Timelines in Group Buys are pretty much made up, you know that.    It's incredibly hard to predict the uncontrollable setbacks incurred by vendors/production, and sorting/shipping can vary a bit too.  The main gripe that people have is with lack of communication, not timelines; hence the question. 

True. I think it's probably better to have a "reasonable amount" reputation when it comes to both communication and timeframe. If the delays are out of the runners control, then communication mitigates the impact that has on the community and placates them. So timeframe doesn't really matter in 90% of GBs if the communication is good IMO.

Pretty much this. And ask for help! Many GB`s that were heading straight to hell were saved by other volunteers that helped get them finished.

[livingspeedbump]

Also, what about tighter rules about the # of active buys someone can have?

[swimmingbird]

Also, what about tighter rules about the # of active buys someone can have?

I don't really think this is necessary

Are there any recent prominent examples of people running a crap load of group buys to steal everyone's cash?

[trizkut]

Also, what about tighter rules about the # of active buys someone can have?

I don't really think this is necessary

Are there any recent prominent examples of people running a crap load of group buys to steal everyone's cash?

Not necessarily, but it increases the complexity/need to be organized if the buys arrive at similar times.  The delivery/completion of some of the older ctrl alt buys has been a bit messy (i'm not even sure if all of the toxic/penumbra orders have been shipped out yet), yet they are still churning out new buys.  I'm not saying I don't trust them, but I can see how people can feel uneasy about entering new buys if previous ones by the same organizer are still lagging behind.

[swimmingbird]

Also, what about tighter rules about the # of active buys someone can have?

I don't really think this is necessary

Are there any recent prominent examples of people running a crap load of group buys to steal everyone's cash?

Not necessarily, but it increases the complexity/need to be organized if the buys arrive at similar times.  The delivery/completion of some of the older ctrl alt buys has been a bit messy (i'm not even sure if all of the toxic/penumbra orders have been shipped out yet), yet they are still churning out new buys.  I'm not saying I don't trust them, but I can see how people can feel uneasy about entering new buys if previous ones by the same organizer are still lagging behind.

I personally think that if we waited for every single issue to get ironed out with each group buy before running another one we would be have a much smaller number of group buys each year

[romevi]

Also, what about tighter rules about the # of active buys someone can have?

I don't really think this is necessary

Are there any recent prominent examples of people running a crap load of group buys to steal everyone's cash?

Not necessarily, but it increases the complexity/need to be organized if the buys arrive at similar times.  The delivery/completion of some of the older ctrl alt buys has been a bit messy (i'm not even sure if all of the toxic/penumbra orders have been shipped out yet), yet they are still churning out new buys.  I'm not saying I don't trust them, but I can see how people can feel uneasy about entering new buys if previous ones by the same organizer are still lagging behind.

I personally think that if we waited for every single issue to get ironed out with each group buy before running another one we would be have a much smaller number of group buys each year

Honestly, I'd rather have that than a buy that's not even completed a year or so after product was in stock.

[swimmingbird]

I personally think that if we waited for every single issue to get ironed out with each group buy before running another one we would be have a much smaller number of group buys each year

Honestly, I'd rather have that than a buy that's not even completed a year or so after product was in stock.

Yeah I'm on the same note

I'm not sure if I can talk though because I have always had a good experience with GB runners. I think one of the reasons why more active people tend to have more positive GB experiences is because we tend to be in more GBs so were not constantly obsessing over when that one thing we ordered will get to us

I totally found that when I really got into the GBs here that I would basically forget about them after joining and put my attention into ICs for new buys and other keyboard stuff

[livingspeedbump]

Also, what about tighter rules about the # of active buys someone can have?

I don't really think this is necessary

Are there any recent prominent examples of people running a crap load of group buys to steal everyone's cash?

Not necessarily, but it increases the complexity/need to be organized if the buys arrive at similar times.  The delivery/completion of some of the older ctrl alt buys has been a bit messy (i'm not even sure if all of the toxic/penumbra orders have been shipped out yet), yet they are still churning out new buys.  I'm not saying I don't trust them, but I can see how people can feel uneasy about entering new buys if previous ones by the same organizer are still lagging behind.

I personally think that if we waited for every single issue to get ironed out with each group buy before running another one we would be have a much smaller number of group buys each year

Honestly, I'd rather have that than a buy that's not even completed a year or so after product was in stock.

Exactly. Less is not necessarily bad. And in the grand scheme of things people, on average, will get items a lot quicker hopefully.

Some people just arent good at knowing what they can handle, and get bogged down. It isn't cash grabs I'm worried about addressing with that suggestion, rather the cluster of having too many active group buys and the vendor getting bogged down and just dragging buys out for ages.

[swimmingbird]

Exactly. Less is not necessarily bad. And in the grand scheme of things people, on average, will get items a lot quicker hopefully.

Some people just arent good at knowing what they can handle, and get bogged down. It isn't cash grabs I'm worried about addressing with that suggestion, rather the cluster of having too many active group buys and the vendor getting bogged down and just dragging buys out for ages.

I think one of the biggest issues is how we think about the relationship between the GB runner and the participant

I personally think reddit tends to view GB runners as vendors or commercial entities most of the time and as such expects the same kind of service that you would expect from a business - timeliness, more immediate customer service and so on. I've noticed this a little bit when you see people raise paypal disputes with GB runners

GH generally takes a more social view of GB runners and knows that they are just people a lot of the time and that they won't make much if any money from a GB

[trizkut]

Exactly. Less is not necessarily bad. And in the grand scheme of things people, on average, will get items a lot quicker hopefully.

Some people just arent good at knowing what they can handle, and get bogged down. It isn't cash grabs I'm worried about addressing with that suggestion, rather the cluster of having too many active group buys and the vendor getting bogged down and just dragging buys out for ages.

I think one of the biggest issues is how we think about the relationship between the GB runner and the participant

I personally think reddit tends to view GB runners as vendors or commercial entities most of the time and as such expects the same kind of service that you would expect from a business - timeliness, more immediate customer service and so on. I've noticed this a little bit when you see people raise paypal disputes with GB runners

GH generally takes a more social view of GB runners and knows that they are just people a lot of the time and that they won't make much if any money from a GB

It's more that most people on GH realize that most of the time these organizers are enthusiasts, like us, who are running these buys in their spare time after their regular jobs and other life commitments. 

[swimmingbird]

Exactly. Less is not necessarily bad. And in the grand scheme of things people, on average, will get items a lot quicker hopefully.

Some people just arent good at knowing what they can handle, and get bogged down. It isn't cash grabs I'm worried about addressing with that suggestion, rather the cluster of having too many active group buys and the vendor getting bogged down and just dragging buys out for ages.

I think one of the biggest issues is how we think about the relationship between the GB runner and the participant

I personally think reddit tends to view GB runners as vendors or commercial entities most of the time and as such expects the same kind of service that you would expect from a business - timeliness, more immediate customer service and so on. I've noticed this a little bit when you see people raise paypal disputes with GB runners

GH generally takes a more social view of GB runners and knows that they are just people a lot of the time and that they won't make much if any money from a GB

It's more that most people on GH realize that most of the time these organizers are enthusiasts, like us, who are running these buys in their spare time after their regular jobs and other life commitments.

For this reason I don't really sympathise that much with the whingers

I do sympathise a lot though with the cases in which people have been waiting for a year more than over people to receive something - pretty much all of these people seem to not be very active on GH and miss a lot of updates to GB threads

[livingspeedbump]

Exactly. Less is not necessarily bad. And in the grand scheme of things people, on average, will get items a lot quicker hopefully.

Some people just arent good at knowing what they can handle, and get bogged down. It isn't cash grabs I'm worried about addressing with that suggestion, rather the cluster of having too many active group buys and the vendor getting bogged down and just dragging buys out for ages.

I think one of the biggest issues is how we think about the relationship between the GB runner and the participant

I personally think reddit tends to view GB runners as vendors or commercial entities most of the time and as such expects the same kind of service that you would expect from a business - timeliness, more immediate customer service and so on. I've noticed this a little bit when you see people raise paypal disputes with GB runners

GH generally takes a more social view of GB runners and knows that they are just people a lot of the time and that they won't make much if any money from a GB

Valid point. But i also don't think if proper customer service cant be given, if you cant fulfill orders in a reasonable time, etc then you don't need to be running group buys. Obviously they arent commercial vendors, but they DO have a responsibility to those they took money from. Sometimes I think being too casual with the buy runners can lead to more complacently than is appropriate.

[meow a cat]

I just want to chime in and say I'm all for the user feedback subforum. One separate thread for each user seems good to me.

I was thinking the other day, it would be nice if I could just search someone up to see if anyone had something to say about them.

Another idea I would get behind is mandatory HeatWare accounts, but that is harder to enforce than the subforum I'd say.

[livingspeedbump]

I just want to chime in and say I'm all for the user feedback subforum. One separate thread for each user seems good to me.

I was thinking the other day, it would be nice if I could just search someone up to see if anyone had something to say about them.

Another idea I would get behind is mandatory HeatWare accounts, but that is harder to enforce than the subforum I'd say.

I just worry that "text" feedback, that isnt anonymous at least, will not accomplish anything. Now, people are afraid to leave bad feedback or call someone out at times, and I think avoiding that is critical to making the reviews as honest as possible. No text also means no arguments too.

[Photekq]

But at the same time how would you verify that anonymous feedback is genuine, and is the result of an actual dealing and not the result of the reviewers opinion of the person in question?

[HoffmanMyster]

But at the same time how would you verify that anonymous feedback is genuine, and is the result of an actual dealing and not the result of the reviewers opinion of the person in question?

Yeah, that's a big advantage to a thread. Also, if someone leaves a remark and it seems like it's missing information or is sharing misinformation, you can ask for clarification, etc.

[Homenubbie]

Is there a list of GB leaders with 100% Products Delivered On Time Track Records?

What is "on time"?

LMAO. Maybe "In my lifetime" works?

It's a serious question though.  Timelines in Group Buys are pretty much made up, you know that.    It's incredibly hard to predict the uncontrollable setbacks incurred by vendors/production, and sorting/shipping can vary a bit too.  The main gripe that people have is with lack of communication, not timelines; hence the question. 

Maybe a year?  Seems like a reasonable expectation even for non-professionals.

Will this Feedback subreddit be created?

[user 18]

Is there a list of GB leaders with 100% Products Delivered On Time Track Records?

What is "on time"?

LMAO. Maybe "In my lifetime" works?

It's a serious question though.  Timelines in Group Buys are pretty much made up, you know that.    It's incredibly hard to predict the uncontrollable setbacks incurred by vendors/production, and sorting/shipping can vary a bit too.  The main gripe that people have is with lack of communication, not timelines; hence the question. 

Maybe a year?  Seems like a reasonable expectation even for non-professionals.

Will this Feedback subreddit be created?

We don't create subreddits. There is however a chance that we will create a subforum

It's something we'll look into, particularly because there seems to be significant community interest in some sort of feedback system. However, at this point, I can't promise what such a system would look like, or how it will be implemented.

[Homenubbie]

Is there a list of GB leaders with 100% Products Delivered On Time Track Records?

What is "on time"?

LMAO. Maybe "In my lifetime" works?

It's a serious question though.  Timelines in Group Buys are pretty much made up, you know that.    It's incredibly hard to predict the uncontrollable setbacks incurred by vendors/production, and sorting/shipping can vary a bit too.  The main gripe that people have is with lack of communication, not timelines; hence the question. 

Maybe a year?  Seems like a reasonable expectation even for non-professionals.

Will this Feedback subreddit be created?

We don't create subreddits. There is however a chance that we will create a subforum

It's something we'll look into, particularly because there seems to be significant community interest in some sort of feedback system. However, at this point, I can't promise what such a system would look like, or how it will be implemented.

I think it would help noobs like me.  Threads like this are scattered so a central place would be good:

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=76888.0

[meow a cat]

I just want to chime in and say I'm all for the user feedback subforum. One separate thread for each user seems good to me.

I was thinking the other day, it would be nice if I could just search someone up to see if anyone had something to say about them.

Another idea I would get behind is mandatory HeatWare accounts, but that is harder to enforce than the subforum I'd say.

I just worry that "text" feedback, that isnt anonymous at least, will not accomplish anything. Now, people are afraid to leave bad feedback or call someone out at times, and I think avoiding that is critical to making the reviews as honest as possible. No text also means no arguments too.

Perhaps an option for anonymity could work - might not be possible with the forum software though, or might be a lot of work for the admins to implement?

But doesn't feedback go both ways? Both sides should be known, as the feedback people leave reflects back onto the integrity of the person leaving it. Hoff and Photekq both made good points about the problems with anonymous feedback. A person's reputation is serious (especially around here!  ), and the feedback left should be as well - the fewer opportunities for dishonest feedback, the better. I think a person would be much more hesitant to give a seller false bad feedback if they know the seller could call them out on it, and that it could affect their reputation as well, and the other way around of course.

As for the arguing, but there's no stopping that really. It will happen in PM's or wherever else. It would be good to keep the feedback subforum drama-free at least.

[taylordcraig]

Is there a list of GB leaders with 100% Products Delivered On Time Track Records?

What is "on time"?

LMAO. Maybe "In my lifetime" works?

It's a serious question though.  Timelines in Group Buys are pretty much made up, you know that.    It's incredibly hard to predict the uncontrollable setbacks incurred by vendors/production, and sorting/shipping can vary a bit too.  The main gripe that people have is with lack of communication, not timelines; hence the question. 

Maybe a year?  Seems like a reasonable expectation even for non-professionals.

Will this Feedback subreddit be created?

It wouldn't be a subreddit for GH lol. Also tons of GBs run over a year so. *shrug*

Also, what about tighter rules about the # of active buys someone can have?

I don't really think this is necessary

Are there any recent prominent examples of people running a crap load of group buys to steal everyone's cash?

Not necessarily, but it increases the complexity/need to be organized if the buys arrive at similar times.  The delivery/completion of some of the older ctrl alt buys has been a bit messy (i'm not even sure if all of the toxic/penumbra orders have been shipped out yet), yet they are still churning out new buys.  I'm not saying I don't trust them, but I can see how people can feel uneasy about entering new buys if previous ones by the same organizer are still lagging behind.

I personally think that if we waited for every single issue to get ironed out with each group buy before running another one we would be have a much smaller number of group buys each year

Honestly, I'd rather have that than a buy that's not even completed a year or so after product was in stock.

EH I guess it's just better to do some research about who you're buying from before you buy.

But at the same time how would you verify that anonymous feedback is genuine, and is the result of an actual dealing and not the result of the reviewers opinion of the person in question?

Yeah, that's a big advantage to a thread. Also, if someone leaves a remark and it seems like it's missing information or is sharing misinformation, you can ask for clarification, etc.

It's a good idea but at the end of the day it leaves the user to research the people leaving feedback as well as the user in question. If they put this much effort in the FIRST time then we wouldn't have nearly as many people getting burned and this whole topic would be moot point.

[GL1TCH3D]

Sorry I didn't read the whole thread but what's wrong with the vendor keeping a heatware off-site?

[BrewCaps]

*****in here is a lot more fun.

[livingspeedbump]

But at the same time how would you verify that anonymous feedback is genuine, and is the result of an actual dealing and not the result of the reviewers opinion of the person in question?

I mean, there would be ways to do it but all would probably be more hassle than they are worth. Public feedback threads would be a good start in the very least I think. Valid point for sure though.

I still think it would be good to cap how many GB's can be run all at once. I do not think vendors with GB's that are incomplete from 1, god forbid 2 years ago should still be allowed to start up and run new buys. Of course, if a buy is run and it is stated/expected to run that long that is fine, but if a buy is delayed, they should have to hold off on launching new ones until the old ones are settled.

I get that of these GB runners aren't official businesses, but i think it is for the best interest of the users that those who have officially been recognized by GH with a subforum are held to a bit higher standards. Perhaps you let them have 2 open buys at once, where individuals can only run 1 GB at a time under normal circumstances.

[BrewCaps]

But at the same time how would you verify that anonymous feedback is genuine, and is the result of an actual dealing and not the result of the reviewers opinion of the person in question?

I mean, there would be ways to do it but all would probably be more hassle than they are worth. Public feedback threads would be a good start in the very least I think. Valid point for sure though.

I still think it would be good to cap how many GB's can be run all at once. I do not think vendors with GB's that are incomplete from 1, god forbid 2 years ago should still be allowed to start up and run new buys. Of course, if a buy is run and it is stated/expected to run that long that is fine, but if a buy is delayed, they should have to hold off on launching new ones until the old ones are settled.

I get that of these GB runners aren't official businesses, but i think it is for the best interest of the users that those who have officially been recognized by GH with a subforum are held to a bit higher standards. Perhaps you let them have 2 open buys at once, where individuals can only run 1 GB at a time under normal circumstances.

Who are you talking about?

[tronbeaver]

Great idea.

Poor execution.

[heedpantsnow]

Great idea.

Poor execution.

Keep spamming, you're almost at 50

[R1N3]

Great idea.

Poor execution.

Keep spamming, you're almost at 50

Tis the season to be thankful for his input

[heedpantsnow]

Great idea.

Poor execution.

Keep spamming, you're almost at 50

Tis the season to be thankful for his input

Thank you for your reminder.

[HoffmanMyster]

Great idea.

Poor execution.

You think that the way this thread was created to discuss the idea of a vendor/user feedback system was poorly executed?  Did you even read the thread before you commented?  )

[SpAmRaY]

Great idea.

Poor execution.

You think that the way this thread was created to discuss the idea of a vendor/user feedback system was poorly executed?  Did you even read the thread before you commented?  )

He's just trolling to get to 50 posts for one of the giveaways.

[tronbeaver]

Not trolling.

I see a lot of talking and no action.

[HoffmanMyster]

Not trolling.

I see a lot of talking and no action.

Some people like to discuss things rather than make rash decisions.

Maybe instead of being critical for no reason, you could actually contribute to the thread?

[ghostjuggernaut]

Not trolling.

I see a lot of talking and no action.

So instead of spamming your post count, why not make some meaningful suggestions?


Edit: Hoff2fast

[Halverson]

Not trolling.

I see a lot of talking and no action.

So instead of spamming your post count, why not make some meaningful suggestions?

Shut up! I'll get found out




Hoff too fast and I beat your edit

[ghostjuggernaut]

Not trolling.

I see a lot of talking and no action.

So instead of spamming your post count, why not make some meaningful suggestions?

Shut up! I'll get found out




Hoff too fast and I beat your edit

Ghost2slow

[Halverson]

Not trolling.

I see a lot of talking and no action.

So instead of spamming your post count, why not make some meaningful suggestions?

Shut up! I'll get found out




Hoff too fast and I beat your edit

Show Image

Ghost2slow

At least you're not a **** poster spammer. I literally don't know what thread I'm in.

[MeltingTeeth]

Why isn't there a Vendor Feedback subforum?

[domoaligato]

I would love a 5 star rating system as long as it required leaving a comment with the rating.

[whmeltonjr]

I'll be honest, haven't read a single wall of text in this thread. Just came here to say it doesn't need to be something overly complex, just a simple positive, negative, or neutral feedback system should suffice. www.golfwrx.com has a pretty good system in place. They have a separate forum for disputes, and when a listing gets flagged by someone it gets moved to that section. They also have a decent feedback system in place there as well.

[MeltingTeeth]

That would work too.

Just something.

[livingspeedbump]

I'll be honest, haven't read a single wall of text in this thread. Just came here to say it doesn't need to be something overly complex, just a simple positive, negative, or neutral feedback system should suffice. www.golfwrx.com has a pretty good system in place. They have a separate forum for disputes, and when a listing gets flagged by someone it gets moved to that section. They also have a decent feedback system in place there as well.

I actually really like that system. Very cool suggestion

[livingspeedbump]

Not trolling.

I see a lot of talking and no action.

Ideas must be shared/conjured up/discussed first. Rushing into action would likely make things worse, not better.

Good job getting a +1 to your post count though. 

[tronbeaver]

Not trolling.

I see a lot of talking and no action.

Ideas must be shared/conjured up/discussed first. Rushing into action would likely make things worse, not better.

Good job getting a +1 to your post count though. 

Thanks!

Someday I hope to have as many as SpamAray!

[SpAmRaY]

Not trolling.

I see a lot of talking and no action.

Ideas must be shared/conjured up/discussed first. Rushing into action would likely make things worse, not better.

Good job getting a +1 to your post count though. 

Thanks!

Someday I hope to have as many as SpamAray!

First, please learn to spell.

[livingspeedbump]

Not trolling.

I see a lot of talking and no action.

Ideas must be shared/conjured up/discussed first. Rushing into action would likely make things worse, not better.

Good job getting a +1 to your post count though. 

Thanks!

Someday I hope to have as many as SpamAray!

First, please learn to spell.

Well, looks like I get to start calling you Aray from now on hahahaha 

[SpAmRaY]

Not trolling.

I see a lot of talking and no action.

Ideas must be shared/conjured up/discussed first. Rushing into action would likely make things worse, not better.

Good job getting a +1 to your post count though. 

Thanks!

Someday I hope to have as many as SpamAray!

First, please learn to spell.

Well, looks like I get to start calling you Aray from now on hahahaha 

Well ripster is the only one who spells it wrong like that so.....

[livingspeedbump]

Not trolling.

I see a lot of talking and no action.

Ideas must be shared/conjured up/discussed first. Rushing into action would likely make things worse, not better.

Good job getting a +1 to your post count though. 

Thanks!

Someday I hope to have as many as SpamAray!

First, please learn to spell.

Well, looks like I get to start calling you Aray from now on hahahaha 

Well ripster is the only one who spells it wrong like that so.....

  !!!!!

[romevi]

Not trolling.

I see a lot of talking and no action.

Ideas must be shared/conjured up/discussed first. Rushing into action would likely make things worse, not better.

Good job getting a +1 to your post count though. 

Thanks!

Someday I hope to have as many as SpamAray!

First, please learn to spell.

Well, looks like I get to start calling you Aray from now on hahahaha 

Well ripster is the only one who spells it wrong like that so.....

Wow, I just realized you have two and not three A's in your name.

[ghostjuggernaut]

I wanted to share the mod team's thoughts on this matter.  We have discussed this subject for about a week now, with input from the majority of moderators and admins.

At this point in time, we will not be implementing a local feedback system, or user-specific feedback threads.  Geekhack has heatware linking in user profiles, and we recommend users continue/start to use that for rating transactions.  The major reason for this, is that the site does not want to be in a position where we are endorsing anyone.  So due to that, all feedback ratings should be external to the forum.

Heatware is an effective method for leaving feedback on user transactions.  We highly suggest people take more advantage of it in the future.

[heedpantsnow]

I wanted to share the mod team's thoughts on this matter.  We have discussed this subject for about a week now, with input from the majority of moderators and admins.

At this point in time, we will not be implementing a local feedback system, or user-specific feedback threads.  Geekhack has heatware linking in user profiles, and we recommend users continue/start to use that for rating transactions.  The major reason for this, is that the site does not want to be in a position where we are endorsing anyone.  So due to that, all feedback ratings should be external to the forum.

Heatware is an effective method for leaving feedback on user transactions.  We highly suggest people take more advantage of it in the future.

That's reasonable; maybe edit the Stickies strongly encouraging heatware?  Or a new sticky explaining and encouraging people to update?  I haven't used it in years, but I'm not opposed.

[user 18]

I wanted to share the mod team's thoughts on this matter.  We have discussed this subject for about a week now, with input from the majority of moderators and admins.

At this point in time, we will not be implementing a local feedback system, or user-specific feedback threads.  Geekhack has heatware linking in user profiles, and we recommend users continue/start to use that for rating transactions.  The major reason for this, is that the site does not want to be in a position where we are endorsing anyone.  So due to that, all feedback ratings should be external to the forum.

Heatware is an effective method for leaving feedback on user transactions.  We highly suggest people take more advantage of it in the future.

That's reasonable; maybe edit the Stickies strongly encouraging heatware?  Or a new sticky explaining and encouraging people to update?  I haven't used it in years, but I'm not opposed.

That's a good idea, I'll bring it up to the rest of the team. We would probably need to work it into the existing threads, since there's already a lot of threads stickied in classifieds.

[MeltingTeeth]

Vendors aren't in Heatware.

Not sure what this has to do with this Vendor Feedback proposal.

[user 18]

Vendors aren't in Heatware.

Not sure what this has to do with this Vendor Feedback proposal.

This thread isn't just about vendor feedback though -- it's also about feedback for specific users. In fact, it seems to me that at least half of the discussion in this thread has been regarding users, whether for the classifieds section or GB runners. We are currently looking into different options for vendor feedback.

[livingspeedbump]

Vendors aren't in Heatware.

Not sure what this has to do with this Vendor Feedback proposal.

This thread isn't just about vendor feedback though -- it's also about feedback for specific users. In fact, it seems to me that at least half of the discussion in this thread has been regarding users, whether for the classifieds section or GB runners. We are currently looking into different options for vendor feedback.

Yeah, I was under the impression this was all just for vendors with Sub Forums. I don't see any changes that can/should be made to classifieds really.

[livingspeedbump]

I wanted to share the mod team's thoughts on this matter.  We have discussed this subject for about a week now, with input from the majority of moderators and admins.

At this point in time, we will not be implementing a local feedback system, or user-specific feedback threads.  Geekhack has heatware linking in user profiles, and we recommend users continue/start to use that for rating transactions.  The major reason for this, is that the site does not want to be in a position where we are endorsing anyone.  So due to that, all feedback ratings should be external to the forum.

Heatware is an effective method for leaving feedback on user transactions.  We highly suggest people take more advantage of it in the future.

GH does "endorse" people with Sub Forums though, at least that is how I see it.

[user 18]

Vendors aren't in Heatware.

Not sure what this has to do with this Vendor Feedback proposal.

This thread isn't just about vendor feedback though -- it's also about feedback for specific users. In fact, it seems to me that at least half of the discussion in this thread has been regarding users, whether for the classifieds section or GB runners. We are currently looking into different options for vendor feedback.

Yeah, I was under the impression this was all just for vendors with Sub Forums. I don't see any changes that can/should be made to classifieds really.

But... the entire line of discussion started with talks about individuals, either in classifieds or as GB runners. It's also in the thread title. I know a lot of your posts have been directed towards the idea of vendors, but that isn't the case for everyone who spoke here.

We aren't really making any changes to Classifieds, other than perhaps more strongly encouraging users to use heatware or other feedback mechanisms.

Again, we are still looking into options for vendor feedback. Please feel free to continue discussion on that aspect, and once we've come to a decision, we will make everyone aware of it.

[MeltingTeeth]

I think there should be a vendor feedback subforum.

After all, the vendors with their own subforums simply can censor bad feedback.

[livingspeedbump]

Vendors aren't in Heatware.

Not sure what this has to do with this Vendor Feedback proposal.

This thread isn't just about vendor feedback though -- it's also about feedback for specific users. In fact, it seems to me that at least half of the discussion in this thread has been regarding users, whether for the classifieds section or GB runners. We are currently looking into different options for vendor feedback.

Yeah, I was under the impression this was all just for vendors with Sub Forums. I don't see any changes that can/should be made to classifieds really.

But... the entire line of discussion started with talks about individuals, either in classifieds or as GB runners. It's also in the thread title. I know a lot of your posts have been directed towards the idea of vendors, but that isn't the case for everyone who spoke here.

We aren't really making any changes to Classifieds, other than perhaps more strongly encouraging users to use heatware or other feedback mechanisms.

Again, we are still looking into options for vendor feedback. Please feel free to continue discussion on that aspect, and once we've come to a decision, we will make everyone aware of it.

This thread originally started as a discussion about the vendor Kbdhub, which is why I was speaking and thinking mainly in terms of vendors with official subforums. I just assumed Users in the title was more a reference to the non-vendors that may take advantage of the services provided by those with Vendor forums, not "Classified Users."

And i agree, no real changes should really be made to classifieds. But of course strongly encouraging users to do their research and use heatware is never going to hurt anything!

[Steezus]

Regarding classifieds, there is starting to be more and more [WTB] threads wanting to buy either unicorn boards(KMAC, OTD, LZ, etc.) or artisans(CCs, Bros, Binges, etc.). I feel like at this point we all know that nobody will approach them for the most part. If somebody is going to sell said item they would either A. approach a friend of theirs that had shared interest in the item in the past or B. create their own [WTS] thread. As far as I know it's not breaking any rules or anything but all it does is clog up classifieds with daily bumping.

I can't really think of a good of a good solution either other than have a sub thread for customs and artisans but I'm sure others will be against that.

[swimmingbird]

Regarding classifieds, there is starting to be more and more [WTB] threads wanting to buy either unicorn boards(KMAC, OTD, LZ, etc.) or artisans(CCs, Bros, Binges, etc.). I feel like at this point we all know that nobody will approach them for the most part. If somebody is going to sell said item they would either A. approach a friend of theirs that had shared interest in the item in the past or B. create their own [WTS] thread. As far as I know it's not breaking any rules or anything but all it does is clog up classifieds with daily bumping.

I can't really think of a good of a good solution either other than have a sub thread for customs and artisans but I'm sure others will be against that.

I managed to find something I never thought I would through this method

Just need to keep the bumping to a minimum

[Dongulator]

Regarding classifieds, there is starting to be more and more [WTB] threads wanting to buy either unicorn boards(KMAC, OTD, LZ, etc.) or artisans(CCs, Bros, Binges, etc.). I feel like at this point we all know that nobody will approach them for the most part. If somebody is going to sell said item they would either A. approach a friend of theirs that had shared interest in the item in the past or B. create their own [WTS] thread. As far as I know it's not breaking any rules or anything but all it does is clog up classifieds with daily bumping.

I can't really think of a good of a good solution either other than have a sub thread for customs and artisans but I'm sure others will be against that.

I managed to find something I never thought I would through this method

Just need to keep the bumping to a minimum

Gotta get the best advertising, can't miss out on a good deal.. tbh I think a large part of the community is actively trading/selling/buying. I am trying to limit my bumping to weekly or twice monthly
.
I for one would be down for  "a sub thread for customs and artisans"

[swimmingbird]

Regarding classifieds, there is starting to be more and more [WTB] threads wanting to buy either unicorn boards(KMAC, OTD, LZ, etc.) or artisans(CCs, Bros, Binges, etc.). I feel like at this point we all know that nobody will approach them for the most part. If somebody is going to sell said item they would either A. approach a friend of theirs that had shared interest in the item in the past or B. create their own [WTS] thread. As far as I know it's not breaking any rules or anything but all it does is clog up classifieds with daily bumping.

I can't really think of a good of a good solution either other than have a sub thread for customs and artisans but I'm sure others will be against that.

I managed to find something I never thought I would through this method

Just need to keep the bumping to a minimum

Gotta get the best advertising, can't miss out on a good deal.. tbh I think a large part of the community is actively trading/selling/buying. I am trying to limit my bumping to weekly or twice monthly
.
I for one would be down for  "a sub thread for customs and artisans"

Pretty much all of the things I most value have come about "dark pool" style through pm's with members that never post their stuff in the classifieds

[Dongulator]

Regarding classifieds, there is starting to be more and more [WTB] threads wanting to buy either unicorn boards(KMAC, OTD, LZ, etc.) or artisans(CCs, Bros, Binges, etc.). I feel like at this point we all know that nobody will approach them for the most part. If somebody is going to sell said item they would either A. approach a friend of theirs that had shared interest in the item in the past or B. create their own [WTS] thread. As far as I know it's not breaking any rules or anything but all it does is clog up classifieds with daily bumping.

I can't really think of a good of a good solution either other than have a sub thread for customs and artisans but I'm sure others will be against that.

I managed to find something I never thought I would through this method

Just need to keep the bumping to a minimum

Gotta get the best advertising, can't miss out on a good deal.. tbh I think a large part of the community is actively trading/selling/buying. I am trying to limit my bumping to weekly or twice monthly
.
I for one would be down for  "a sub thread for customs and artisans"

Pretty much all of the things I most value have come about "dark pool" style through pm's with members that never post their stuff in the classifieds

How does that even start, do I just PM someone who I think has an item I would like to buy or trade for?
I would feel really weird doing that.

[Steezus]

Regarding classifieds, there is starting to be more and more [WTB] threads wanting to buy either unicorn boards(KMAC, OTD, LZ, etc.) or artisans(CCs, Bros, Binges, etc.). I feel like at this point we all know that nobody will approach them for the most part. If somebody is going to sell said item they would either A. approach a friend of theirs that had shared interest in the item in the past or B. create their own [WTS] thread. As far as I know it's not breaking any rules or anything but all it does is clog up classifieds with daily bumping.

I can't really think of a good of a good solution either other than have a sub thread for customs and artisans but I'm sure others will be against that.

I managed to find something I never thought I would through this method

Just need to keep the bumping to a minimum

Gotta get the best advertising, can't miss out on a good deal.. tbh I think a large part of the community is actively trading/selling/buying. I am trying to limit my bumping to weekly or twice monthly
.
I for one would be down for  "a sub thread for customs and artisans"

Pretty much all of the things I most value have come about "dark pool" style through pm's with members that never post their stuff in the classifieds

Yeah that's kind of my point, the classifieds is just getting too clogged up with posts asking for "LZ, OTD, KMAC, etc." when people that own those boards for the most part do sales through PM. That's exactly how I just scored my Lightsaver v2.

[livingspeedbump]

Regarding classifieds, there is starting to be more and more [WTB] threads wanting to buy either unicorn boards(KMAC, OTD, LZ, etc.) or artisans(CCs, Bros, Binges, etc.). I feel like at this point we all know that nobody will approach them for the most part. If somebody is going to sell said item they would either A. approach a friend of theirs that had shared interest in the item in the past or B. create their own [WTS] thread. As far as I know it's not breaking any rules or anything but all it does is clog up classifieds with daily bumping.

I can't really think of a good of a good solution either other than have a sub thread for customs and artisans but I'm sure others will be against that.

I managed to find something I never thought I would through this method

Just need to keep the bumping to a minimum

Gotta get the best advertising, can't miss out on a good deal.. tbh I think a large part of the community is actively trading/selling/buying. I am trying to limit my bumping to weekly or twice monthly
.
I for one would be down for  "a sub thread for customs and artisans"

Pretty much all of the things I most value have come about "dark pool" style through pm's with members that never post their stuff in the classifieds

How does that even start, do I just PM someone who I think has an item I would like to buy or trade for?
I would feel really weird doing that.

What about a split classifieds? One for Selling and one for Buying?

Personally, yeah, the artisan WTB threads especially are annoying, especially since they seem to be the ones that wait till the second after 24hrs to bump again.

[livingspeedbump]

As User18 mentioned, this thread included both issues with Classifieds as well as Vendors. I would like to explicitly point out that the ideas and issues below are specifically related to vendors with their own official GeekHack sub forums, and these ideas and thoughts are only pertaining to those vendors/individuals and not any other group. I just want to avoid any possible confusion here


I think that when GeekHack Mods give a sub forum to a Vendor/Artisan that they are endorsing them in an official capacity. From the eyes of new members that may not be completely aware of who the vendors are, or what their reputation is, or how long they have been around, seeing a sub forum for a particular vendor/artisan service will inevitably give them the impression that they are a solid and trusted seller. Obviously GH is not responsible in any way for the actions of the vendors, but I think that when an official sub forum is given to a vendor, some additional rules should apply, especially because it will only help their business.

I think one thing that really needs to change is to limit the # of open buys a vendor/artisan can have open any any given time. I think 3 is more than enough. If a vendor still has 3 open buys, limited human resources to get those buys out, and STILL starts more buys, that is nothing but a slap in the face to those who have participated in those previous buys as it will only add more time and delays to their orders. Another solution would be to require time to completion on the buys, but that is obviously a dumb idea. Buys often hit snags well outside of the control of the vendors here. But, by limiting the # of active buys a vendor can have GH would essentially be protecting the vendors by making them finish what they start and not over estimate their time or ability to get items out, as well as the buyers, by hopefully keeping time to receiving their items to a minimum.

I also think having a feedback thread in their forums for feedback, that the vendors themselves can't edit, would be beneficial. In my earlier thoughts, I thought having an anonymous feedback system would be good, as there is a degree of people being afraid to leave negative feedback for various reasons. Policing and proving the legitimacy of the anonymous system would be a nightmare though. Having a thread where customers could leave their feedback, and the vendors could chime in when needed seems like the best bet, but making sure the vendors can just delete threads they don't like would be key here.

I don't think any of these rules are too strict, especially when the sub forum will only be helping them out.

[Dongulator]

Regarding classifieds, there is starting to be more and more [WTB] threads wanting to buy either unicorn boards(KMAC, OTD, LZ, etc.) or artisans(CCs, Bros, Binges, etc.). I feel like at this point we all know that nobody will approach them for the most part. If somebody is going to sell said item they would either A. approach a friend of theirs that had shared interest in the item in the past or B. create their own [WTS] thread. As far as I know it's not breaking any rules or anything but all it does is clog up classifieds with daily bumping.

I can't really think of a good of a good solution either other than have a sub thread for customs and artisans but I'm sure others will be against that.

I managed to find something I never thought I would through this method

Just need to keep the bumping to a minimum

Gotta get the best advertising, can't miss out on a good deal.. tbh I think a large part of the community is actively trading/selling/buying. I am trying to limit my bumping to weekly or twice monthly
.
I for one would be down for  "a sub thread for customs and artisans"

Pretty much all of the things I most value have come about "dark pool" style through pm's with members that never post their stuff in the classifieds

How does that even start, do I just PM someone who I think has an item I would like to buy or trade for?
I would feel really weird doing that.

What about a split classifieds? One for Selling and one for Buying?

Personally, yeah, the artisan WTB threads especially are annoying, especially since they seem to be the ones that wait till the second after 24hrs to bump again.

I would suggest a third,Trading..

[FLFisherman]

As User18 mentioned, this thread included both issues with Classifieds as well as Vendors. I would like to explicitly point out that the ideas and issues below are specifically related to vendors with their own official GeekHack sub forums, and these ideas and thoughts are only pertaining to those vendors/individuals and not any other group. I just want to avoid any possible confusion here


I think that when GeekHack Mods give a sub forum to a Vendor/Artisan that they are endorsing them in an official capacity. From the eyes of new members that may not be completely aware of who the vendors are, or what their reputation is, or how long they have been around, seeing a sub forum for a particular vendor/artisan service will inevitably give them the impression that they are a solid and trusted seller. Obviously GH is not responsible in any way for the actions of the vendors, but I think that when an official sub forum is given to a vendor, some additional rules should apply, especially because it will only help their business.

I think one thing that really needs to change is to limit the # of open buys a vendor/artisan can have open any any given time. I think 3 is more than enough. If a vendor still has 3 open buys, limited human resources to get those buys out, and STILL starts more buys, that is nothing but a slap in the face to those who have participated in those previous buys as it will only add more time and delays to their orders. Another solution would be to require time to completion on the buys, but that is obviously a dumb idea. Buys often hit snags well outside of the control of the vendors here. But, by limiting the # of active buys a vendor can have GH would essentially be protecting the vendors by making them finish what they start and not over estimate their time or ability to get items out, as well as the buyers, by hopefully keeping time to receiving their items to a minimum.

I also think having a feedback thread in their forums for feedback, that the vendors themselves can't edit, would be beneficial. In my earlier thoughts, I thought having an anonymous feedback system would be good, as there is a degree of people being afraid to leave negative feedback for various reasons. Policing and proving the legitimacy of the anonymous system would be a nightmare though. Having a thread where customers could leave their feedback, and the vendors could chime in when needed seems like the best bet, but making sure the vendors can just delete threads they don't like would be key here.

I don't think any of these rules are too strict, especially when the sub forum will only be helping them out.

I agree with most of it except for limiting the number of buys. How are the moderators to determine whether or not a vendor is capable of running multiple buys? Some people may be unable to handle just one, while other, more experience individuals/groups could probably handle five or more.

[livingspeedbump]

As User18 mentioned, this thread included both issues with Classifieds as well as Vendors. I would like to explicitly point out that the ideas and issues below are specifically related to vendors with their own official GeekHack sub forums, and these ideas and thoughts are only pertaining to those vendors/individuals and not any other group. I just want to avoid any possible confusion here


I think that when GeekHack Mods give a sub forum to a Vendor/Artisan that they are endorsing them in an official capacity. From the eyes of new members that may not be completely aware of who the vendors are, or what their reputation is, or how long they have been around, seeing a sub forum for a particular vendor/artisan service will inevitably give them the impression that they are a solid and trusted seller. Obviously GH is not responsible in any way for the actions of the vendors, but I think that when an official sub forum is given to a vendor, some additional rules should apply, especially because it will only help their business.

I think one thing that really needs to change is to limit the # of open buys a vendor/artisan can have open any any given time. I think 3 is more than enough. If a vendor still has 3 open buys, limited human resources to get those buys out, and STILL starts more buys, that is nothing but a slap in the face to those who have participated in those previous buys as it will only add more time and delays to their orders. Another solution would be to require time to completion on the buys, but that is obviously a dumb idea. Buys often hit snags well outside of the control of the vendors here. But, by limiting the # of active buys a vendor can have GH would essentially be protecting the vendors by making them finish what they start and not over estimate their time or ability to get items out, as well as the buyers, by hopefully keeping time to receiving their items to a minimum.

I also think having a feedback thread in their forums for feedback, that the vendors themselves can't edit, would be beneficial. In my earlier thoughts, I thought having an anonymous feedback system would be good, as there is a degree of people being afraid to leave negative feedback for various reasons. Policing and proving the legitimacy of the anonymous system would be a nightmare though. Having a thread where customers could leave their feedback, and the vendors could chime in when needed seems like the best bet, but making sure the vendors can just delete threads they don't like would be key here.

I don't think any of these rules are too strict, especially when the sub forum will only be helping them out.

I agree with most of it except for limiting the number of buys. How are the moderators to determine whether or not a vendor is capable of running multiple buys? Some people may be unable to handle just one, while other, more experience individuals/groups could probably handle five or more.

I dont think a group here, outside companys like Massdrop, have ever managed to successfully juggle 5 group buys, AND deliver them all on time to 100% completion. Yes, the idea is rough, and very few simple ideas will be able to encapsulate everyone running group buys on the same level.

Other ideas like making vendors guess a date of completion, and then freezing further group buys if more than 2 previous one are cuttently "overdue" could also work.

The simple issue is a few vendors start more group buys than they finish it seems like, and this is a problem when you have an official sub forum imo. Vendors not ok with this could always opt out of having an official sub forum

[FLFisherman]

As User18 mentioned, this thread included both issues with Classifieds as well as Vendors. I would like to explicitly point out that the ideas and issues below are specifically related to vendors with their own official GeekHack sub forums, and these ideas and thoughts are only pertaining to those vendors/individuals and not any other group. I just want to avoid any possible confusion here


I think that when GeekHack Mods give a sub forum to a Vendor/Artisan that they are endorsing them in an official capacity. From the eyes of new members that may not be completely aware of who the vendors are, or what their reputation is, or how long they have been around, seeing a sub forum for a particular vendor/artisan service will inevitably give them the impression that they are a solid and trusted seller. Obviously GH is not responsible in any way for the actions of the vendors, but I think that when an official sub forum is given to a vendor, some additional rules should apply, especially because it will only help their business.

I think one thing that really needs to change is to limit the # of open buys a vendor/artisan can have open any any given time. I think 3 is more than enough. If a vendor still has 3 open buys, limited human resources to get those buys out, and STILL starts more buys, that is nothing but a slap in the face to those who have participated in those previous buys as it will only add more time and delays to their orders. Another solution would be to require time to completion on the buys, but that is obviously a dumb idea. Buys often hit snags well outside of the control of the vendors here. But, by limiting the # of active buys a vendor can have GH would essentially be protecting the vendors by making them finish what they start and not over estimate their time or ability to get items out, as well as the buyers, by hopefully keeping time to receiving their items to a minimum.

I also think having a feedback thread in their forums for feedback, that the vendors themselves can't edit, would be beneficial. In my earlier thoughts, I thought having an anonymous feedback system would be good, as there is a degree of people being afraid to leave negative feedback for various reasons. Policing and proving the legitimacy of the anonymous system would be a nightmare though. Having a thread where customers could leave their feedback, and the vendors could chime in when needed seems like the best bet, but making sure the vendors can just delete threads they don't like would be key here.

I don't think any of these rules are too strict, especially when the sub forum will only be helping them out.

I agree with most of it except for limiting the number of buys. How are the moderators to determine whether or not a vendor is capable of running multiple buys? Some people may be unable to handle just one, while other, more experience individuals/groups could probably handle five or more.

I dont think a group here, outside companys like Massdrop, have ever managed to successfully juggle 5 group buys, AND deliver them all on time to 100% completion. Yes, the idea is rough, and very few simple ideas will be able to encapsulate everyone running group buys on the same level.

Other ideas like making vendors guess a date of completion, and then freezing further group buys if more than 2 previous one are cuttently "overdue" could also work.

The simple issue is a few vendors start more group buys than they finish it seems like, and this is a problem when you have an official sub forum imo. Vendors not ok with this could always opt out of having an official sub forum

That does sound fair. I've not been around long enough to see the failure any/or delay of any group buys, but I have heard about them. I'm surprised anyone simply accepts the excuses or just lack of communication from those hosting the buy. I suppose this is a hobby with infinite patience on the community's end and few choices when it comes to group buys.

[livingspeedbump]

As User18 mentioned, this thread included both issues with Classifieds as well as Vendors. I would like to explicitly point out that the ideas and issues below are specifically related to vendors with their own official GeekHack sub forums, and these ideas and thoughts are only pertaining to those vendors/individuals and not any other group. I just want to avoid any possible confusion here


I think that when GeekHack Mods give a sub forum to a Vendor/Artisan that they are endorsing them in an official capacity. From the eyes of new members that may not be completely aware of who the vendors are, or what their reputation is, or how long they have been around, seeing a sub forum for a particular vendor/artisan service will inevitably give them the impression that they are a solid and trusted seller. Obviously GH is not responsible in any way for the actions of the vendors, but I think that when an official sub forum is given to a vendor, some additional rules should apply, especially because it will only help their business.

I think one thing that really needs to change is to limit the # of open buys a vendor/artisan can have open any any given time. I think 3 is more than enough. If a vendor still has 3 open buys, limited human resources to get those buys out, and STILL starts more buys, that is nothing but a slap in the face to those who have participated in those previous buys as it will only add more time and delays to their orders. Another solution would be to require time to completion on the buys, but that is obviously a dumb idea. Buys often hit snags well outside of the control of the vendors here. But, by limiting the # of active buys a vendor can have GH would essentially be protecting the vendors by making them finish what they start and not over estimate their time or ability to get items out, as well as the buyers, by hopefully keeping time to receiving their items to a minimum.

I also think having a feedback thread in their forums for feedback, that the vendors themselves can't edit, would be beneficial. In my earlier thoughts, I thought having an anonymous feedback system would be good, as there is a degree of people being afraid to leave negative feedback for various reasons. Policing and proving the legitimacy of the anonymous system would be a nightmare though. Having a thread where customers could leave their feedback, and the vendors could chime in when needed seems like the best bet, but making sure the vendors can just delete threads they don't like would be key here.

I don't think any of these rules are too strict, especially when the sub forum will only be helping them out.

I agree with most of it except for limiting the number of buys. How are the moderators to determine whether or not a vendor is capable of running multiple buys? Some people may be unable to handle just one, while other, more experience individuals/groups could probably handle five or more.

I dont think a group here, outside companys like Massdrop, have ever managed to successfully juggle 5 group buys, AND deliver them all on time to 100% completion. Yes, the idea is rough, and very few simple ideas will be able to encapsulate everyone running group buys on the same level.

Other ideas like making vendors guess a date of completion, and then freezing further group buys if more than 2 previous one are cuttently "overdue" could also work.

The simple issue is a few vendors start more group buys than they finish it seems like, and this is a problem when you have an official sub forum imo. Vendors not ok with this could always opt out of having an official sub forum

That does sound fair. I've not been around long enough to see the failure any/or delay of any group buys, but I have heard about them. I'm surprised anyone simply accepts the excuses or just lack of communication from those hosting the buy. I suppose this is a hobby with infinite patience on the community's end and few choices when it comes to group buys.

Well, communication, in the end, is the key. But that is just too hard to police I think. Yeah you could say "one update from vendor required per bi-week by vendor" but that seems like overkill. In the end, people need to do their research before joining any group buy, my ideas are more to protect GH itself by maintaining higher standards for their official sub forums, because it is an official endorsement.

[HoffmanMyster]

As User18 mentioned, this thread included both issues with Classifieds as well as Vendors. I would like to explicitly point out that the ideas and issues below are specifically related to vendors with their own official GeekHack sub forums, and these ideas and thoughts are only pertaining to those vendors/individuals and not any other group. I just want to avoid any possible confusion here


I think that when GeekHack Mods give a sub forum to a Vendor/Artisan that they are endorsing them in an official capacity. From the eyes of new members that may not be completely aware of who the vendors are, or what their reputation is, or how long they have been around, seeing a sub forum for a particular vendor/artisan service will inevitably give them the impression that they are a solid and trusted seller. Obviously GH is not responsible in any way for the actions of the vendors, but I think that when an official sub forum is given to a vendor, some additional rules should apply, especially because it will only help their business.

I think one thing that really needs to change is to limit the # of open buys a vendor/artisan can have open any any given time. I think 3 is more than enough. If a vendor still has 3 open buys, limited human resources to get those buys out, and STILL starts more buys, that is nothing but a slap in the face to those who have participated in those previous buys as it will only add more time and delays to their orders. Another solution would be to require time to completion on the buys, but that is obviously a dumb idea. Buys often hit snags well outside of the control of the vendors here. But, by limiting the # of active buys a vendor can have GH would essentially be protecting the vendors by making them finish what they start and not over estimate their time or ability to get items out, as well as the buyers, by hopefully keeping time to receiving their items to a minimum.

I also think having a feedback thread in their forums for feedback, that the vendors themselves can't edit, would be beneficial. In my earlier thoughts, I thought having an anonymous feedback system would be good, as there is a degree of people being afraid to leave negative feedback for various reasons. Policing and proving the legitimacy of the anonymous system would be a nightmare though. Having a thread where customers could leave their feedback, and the vendors could chime in when needed seems like the best bet, but making sure the vendors can just delete threads they don't like would be key here.

I don't think any of these rules are too strict, especially when the sub forum will only be helping them out.

I agree with most of it except for limiting the number of buys. How are the moderators to determine whether or not a vendor is capable of running multiple buys? Some people may be unable to handle just one, while other, more experience individuals/groups could probably handle five or more.

I dont think a group here, outside companys like Massdrop, have ever managed to successfully juggle 5 group buys, AND deliver them all on time to 100% completion. Yes, the idea is rough, and very few simple ideas will be able to encapsulate everyone running group buys on the same level.

Other ideas like making vendors guess a date of completion, and then freezing further group buys if more than 2 previous one are cuttently "overdue" could also work.

The simple issue is a few vendors start more group buys than they finish it seems like, and this is a problem when you have an official sub forum imo. Vendors not ok with this could always opt out of having an official sub forum

That does sound fair. I've not been around long enough to see the failure any/or delay of any group buys, but I have heard about them. I'm surprised anyone simply accepts the excuses or just lack of communication from those hosting the buy. I suppose this is a hobby with infinite patience on the community's end and few choices when it comes to group buys.

It's really not a matter of "accepting excuses".

Say an organizer says there will be delays because of X reason. You are fed up with delays, so you choose to not "accept" this delay. What do you do? You are on the other side of the Internet from someone you do not know personally, on a website that is not designed or intended to primarily be a place to sell wares. You express distaste, but come across as impatient or needy. Backlash ensues. People fight over how much time is appropriate to wait before complaining. All the while the organizer is still working on the project (benefit of the doubt) and simply needs more time. How does the outburst help?

Reviews and feedback are very helpful, I can't and wouldn't question that. But there are plenty of scenarios where waiting is indeed the best course of action.

[inanis]

It's really not a matter of "accepting excuses".

Say an organizer says there will be delays because of X reason. You are fed up with delays, so you choose to not "accept" this delay. What do you do? You are on the other side of the Internet from someone you do not know personally, on a website that is not designed or intended to primarily be a place to sell wares. You express distaste, but come across as impatient or needy. Backlash ensues. People fight over how much time is appropriate to wait before complaining. All the while the organizer is still working on the project (benefit of the doubt) and simply needs more time. How does the outburst help?

Reviews and feedback are very helpful, I can't and wouldn't question that. But there are plenty of scenarios where waiting is indeed the best course of action.

I understand this, really, I do. But the idea that someone expressing frustration about being mislead (even when it is done with the best of intentions) being boiled down to a outburst is part of the problem.

At some point it is well with in reason to have an "outburst". A polite one based in fact, not emotion. Because promises matter. Expectations matter. If people just sit back and allow things to continue unchecked honestly, what good does that do? Shouldn't the voice of the people matter? And yes, next time you could choose not to join, but that doesn't help the 'this time' you may find yourself in.

[HoffmanMyster]

It's really not a matter of "accepting excuses".

Say an organizer says there will be delays because of X reason. You are fed up with delays, so you choose to not "accept" this delay. What do you do? You are on the other side of the Internet from someone you do not know personally, on a website that is not designed or intended to primarily be a place to sell wares. You express distaste, but come across as impatient or needy. Backlash ensues. People fight over how much time is appropriate to wait before complaining. All the while the organizer is still working on the project (benefit of the doubt) and simply needs more time. How does the outburst help?

Reviews and feedback are very helpful, I can't and wouldn't question that. But there are plenty of scenarios where waiting is indeed the best course of action.

I understand this, really, I do. But the idea that someone expressing frustration about being mislead (even when it is done with the best of intentions) being boiled down to a outburst is part of the problem.

At some point it is well with in reason to have an "outburst". A polite one based in fact, not emotion. Because promises matter. Expectations matter. If people just sit back and allow things to continue unchecked honestly, what good does that do? Shouldn't the voice of the people matter? And yes, next time you could choose not to join, but that doesn't help the 'this time' you may find yourself in.

"Outburst" was a poor choice of word, you are correct.

I've commented on this sort of thing so many times by this point that I feel like a broken record.

I have both sympathy and empathy coming out my ears.  If you honestly think that I meant anything negative by my phrasing, then you will have to wait until I have more time to draft a more proper message.

[inanis]

It's really not a matter of "accepting excuses".

Say an organizer says there will be delays because of X reason. You are fed up with delays, so you choose to not "accept" this delay. What do you do? You are on the other side of the Internet from someone you do not know personally, on a website that is not designed or intended to primarily be a place to sell wares. You express distaste, but come across as impatient or needy. Backlash ensues. People fight over how much time is appropriate to wait before complaining. All the while the organizer is still working on the project (benefit of the doubt) and simply needs more time. How does the outburst help?

Reviews and feedback are very helpful, I can't and wouldn't question that. But there are plenty of scenarios where waiting is indeed the best course of action.

I understand this, really, I do. But the idea that someone expressing frustration about being mislead (even when it is done with the best of intentions) being boiled down to a outburst is part of the problem.

At some point it is well with in reason to have an "outburst". A polite one based in fact, not emotion. Because promises matter. Expectations matter. If people just sit back and allow things to continue unchecked honestly, what good does that do? Shouldn't the voice of the people matter? And yes, next time you could choose not to join, but that doesn't help the 'this time' you may find yourself in.

"Outburst" was a poor choice of word, you are correct.

I've commented on this sort of thing so many times by this point that I feel like a broken record.

I have both sympathy and empathy coming out my ears.  If you honestly think that I meant anything negative by my phrasing, then you will have to wait until I have more time to draft a more proper message.

I understand your stance on this, so no need to explain. 

But I wanted to be clear because it often *is* viewed as an outburst out of petty impatience. Sometimes it is, but other times it is very, very warranted and it is beyond frustrating when it is shooed away as some kind of deficiency on the complainers part. Sometimes there is more strength in speaking your mind than staying silent. Knowing when to do speak it and when to stay quiet is important as well.

[livingspeedbump]

As User18 mentioned, this thread included both issues with Classifieds as well as Vendors. I would like to explicitly point out that the ideas and issues below are specifically related to vendors with their own official GeekHack sub forums, and these ideas and thoughts are only pertaining to those vendors/individuals and not any other group. I just want to avoid any possible confusion here


I think that when GeekHack Mods give a sub forum to a Vendor/Artisan that they are endorsing them in an official capacity. From the eyes of new members that may not be completely aware of who the vendors are, or what their reputation is, or how long they have been around, seeing a sub forum for a particular vendor/artisan service will inevitably give them the impression that they are a solid and trusted seller. Obviously GH is not responsible in any way for the actions of the vendors, but I think that when an official sub forum is given to a vendor, some additional rules should apply, especially because it will only help their business.

I think one thing that really needs to change is to limit the # of open buys a vendor/artisan can have open any any given time. I think 3 is more than enough. If a vendor still has 3 open buys, limited human resources to get those buys out, and STILL starts more buys, that is nothing but a slap in the face to those who have participated in those previous buys as it will only add more time and delays to their orders. Another solution would be to require time to completion on the buys, but that is obviously a dumb idea. Buys often hit snags well outside of the control of the vendors here. But, by limiting the # of active buys a vendor can have GH would essentially be protecting the vendors by making them finish what they start and not over estimate their time or ability to get items out, as well as the buyers, by hopefully keeping time to receiving their items to a minimum.

I also think having a feedback thread in their forums for feedback, that the vendors themselves can't edit, would be beneficial. In my earlier thoughts, I thought having an anonymous feedback system would be good, as there is a degree of people being afraid to leave negative feedback for various reasons. Policing and proving the legitimacy of the anonymous system would be a nightmare though. Having a thread where customers could leave their feedback, and the vendors could chime in when needed seems like the best bet, but making sure the vendors can just delete threads they don't like would be key here.

I don't think any of these rules are too strict, especially when the sub forum will only be helping them out.

I agree with most of it except for limiting the number of buys. How are the moderators to determine whether or not a vendor is capable of running multiple buys? Some people may be unable to handle just one, while other, more experience individuals/groups could probably handle five or more.

I dont think a group here, outside companys like Massdrop, have ever managed to successfully juggle 5 group buys, AND deliver them all on time to 100% completion. Yes, the idea is rough, and very few simple ideas will be able to encapsulate everyone running group buys on the same level.

Other ideas like making vendors guess a date of completion, and then freezing further group buys if more than 2 previous one are cuttently "overdue" could also work.

The simple issue is a few vendors start more group buys than they finish it seems like, and this is a problem when you have an official sub forum imo. Vendors not ok with this could always opt out of having an official sub forum

That does sound fair. I've not been around long enough to see the failure any/or delay of any group buys, but I have heard about them. I'm surprised anyone simply accepts the excuses or just lack of communication from those hosting the buy. I suppose this is a hobby with infinite patience on the community's end and few choices when it comes to group buys.

It's really not a matter of "accepting excuses".

Say an organizer says there will be delays because of X reason. You are fed up with delays, so you choose to not "accept" this delay. What do you do? You are on the other side of the Internet from someone you do not know personally, on a website that is not designed or intended to primarily be a place to sell wares. You express distaste, but come across as impatient or needy. Backlash ensues. People fight over how much time is appropriate to wait before complaining. All the while the organizer is still working on the project (benefit of the doubt) and simply needs more time. How does the outburst help?

Reviews and feedback are very helpful, I can't and wouldn't question that. But there are plenty of scenarios where waiting is indeed the best course of action.

I disagree with none of this, and very much shows why this is such a difficult thing to find a good balance with.

[demik]

As User18 mentioned, this thread included both issues with Classifieds as well as Vendors. I would like to explicitly point out that the ideas and issues below are specifically related to vendors with their own official GeekHack sub forums, and these ideas and thoughts are only pertaining to those vendors/individuals and not any other group. I just want to avoid any possible confusion here


I think that when GeekHack Mods give a sub forum to a Vendor/Artisan that they are endorsing them in an official capacity. From the eyes of new members that may not be completely aware of who the vendors are, or what their reputation is, or how long they have been around, seeing a sub forum for a particular vendor/artisan service will inevitably give them the impression that they are a solid and trusted seller. Obviously GH is not responsible in any way for the actions of the vendors, but I think that when an official sub forum is given to a vendor, some additional rules should apply, especially because it will only help their business.

I think one thing that really needs to change is to limit the # of open buys a vendor/artisan can have open any any given time. I think 3 is more than enough. If a vendor still has 3 open buys, limited human resources to get those buys out, and STILL starts more buys, that is nothing but a slap in the face to those who have participated in those previous buys as it will only add more time and delays to their orders. Another solution would be to require time to completion on the buys, but that is obviously a dumb idea. Buys often hit snags well outside of the control of the vendors here. But, by limiting the # of active buys a vendor can have GH would essentially be protecting the vendors by making them finish what they start and not over estimate their time or ability to get items out, as well as the buyers, by hopefully keeping time to receiving their items to a minimum.

I also think having a feedback thread in their forums for feedback, that the vendors themselves can't edit, would be beneficial. In my earlier thoughts, I thought having an anonymous feedback system would be good, as there is a degree of people being afraid to leave negative feedback for various reasons. Policing and proving the legitimacy of the anonymous system would be a nightmare though. Having a thread where customers could leave their feedback, and the vendors could chime in when needed seems like the best bet, but making sure the vendors can just delete threads they don't like would be key here.

I don't think any of these rules are too strict, especially when the sub forum will only be helping them out.

I agree with most of it except for limiting the number of buys. How are the moderators to determine whether or not a vendor is capable of running multiple buys? Some people may be unable to handle just one, while other, more experience individuals/groups could probably handle five or more.

I dont think a group here, outside companys like Massdrop, have ever managed to successfully juggle 5 group buys, AND deliver them all on time to 100% completion. Yes, the idea is rough, and very few simple ideas will be able to encapsulate everyone running group buys on the same level.

Other ideas like making vendors guess a date of completion, and then freezing further group buys if more than 2 previous one are cuttently "overdue" could also work.

The simple issue is a few vendors start more group buys than they finish it seems like, and this is a problem when you have an official sub forum imo. Vendors not ok with this could always opt out of having an official sub forum

That does sound fair. I've not been around long enough to see the failure any/or delay of any group buys, but I have heard about them. I'm surprised anyone simply accepts the excuses or just lack of communication from those hosting the buy. I suppose this is a hobby with infinite patience on the community's end and few choices when it comes to group buys.

It's really not a matter of "accepting excuses".

Say an organizer says there will be delays because of X reason. You are fed up with delays, so you choose to not "accept" this delay. What do you do? You are on the other side of the Internet from someone you do not know personally, on a website that is not designed or intended to primarily be a place to sell wares. You express distaste, but come across as impatient or needy. Backlash ensues. People fight over how much time is appropriate to wait before complaining. All the while the organizer is still working on the project (benefit of the doubt) and simply needs more time. How does the outburst help?

Reviews and feedback are very helpful, I can't and wouldn't question that. But there are plenty of scenarios where waiting is indeed the best course of action.

I disagree with none of this, and very much shows why this is such a difficult thing to find a good balance with.

I disagree with everything said here

[Homenubbie]

That is because you are disagreeable.


Vendors can take years to ship and that is ok as long as you know what you are getting into.

It is the ones that never ship that are the problem.

[Vittra]

Slight variation, with two aspects to it:

1) Rather than a feedback system, make it mandatory for users interesting in buying/selling/trading to use Heatware and have it present on their account info. This circumvents any potential aspects with the burden of creating a feedback system within the forum itself.

2) Create a subforum within Classified for discussion of disputes and potential scammers.

[jonathanyu]

before this system is finalized, where can I post how I was scammed by a gh user?

[nubbinator]

before this system is finalized, where can I post how I was scammed by a gh user?

[appleonama]

As User18 mentioned, this thread included both issues with Classifieds as well as Vendors. I would like to explicitly point out that the ideas and issues below are specifically related to vendors with their own official GeekHack sub forums, and these ideas and thoughts are only pertaining to those vendors/individuals and not any other group. I just want to avoid any possible confusion here


I think that when GeekHack Mods give a sub forum to a Vendor/Artisan that they are endorsing them in an official capacity. From the eyes of new members that may not be completely aware of who the vendors are, or what their reputation is, or how long they have been around, seeing a sub forum for a particular vendor/artisan service will inevitably give them the impression that they are a solid and trusted seller. Obviously GH is not responsible in any way for the actions of the vendors, but I think that when an official sub forum is given to a vendor, some additional rules should apply, especially because it will only help their business.

I think one thing that really needs to change is to limit the # of open buys a vendor/artisan can have open any any given time. I think 3 is more than enough. If a vendor still has 3 open buys, limited human resources to get those buys out, and STILL starts more buys, that is nothing but a slap in the face to those who have participated in those previous buys as it will only add more time and delays to their orders. Another solution would be to require time to completion on the buys, but that is obviously a dumb idea. Buys often hit snags well outside of the control of the vendors here. But, by limiting the # of active buys a vendor can have GH would essentially be protecting the vendors by making them finish what they start and not over estimate their time or ability to get items out, as well as the buyers, by hopefully keeping time to receiving their items to a minimum.

I also think having a feedback thread in their forums for feedback, that the vendors themselves can't edit, would be beneficial. In my earlier thoughts, I thought having an anonymous feedback system would be good, as there is a degree of people being afraid to leave negative feedback for various reasons. Policing and proving the legitimacy of the anonymous system would be a nightmare though. Having a thread where customers could leave their feedback, and the vendors could chime in when needed seems like the best bet, but making sure the vendors can just delete threads they don't like would be key here.

I don't think any of these rules are too strict, especially when the sub forum will only be helping them out.

I agree with most of it except for limiting the number of buys. How are the moderators to determine whether or not a vendor is capable of running multiple buys? Some people may be unable to handle just one, while other, more experience individuals/groups could probably handle five or more.

I dont think a group here, outside companys like Massdrop, have ever managed to successfully juggle 5 group buys, AND deliver them all on time to 100% completion. Yes, the idea is rough, and very few simple ideas will be able to encapsulate everyone running group buys on the same level.

Other ideas like making vendors guess a date of completion, and then freezing further group buys if more than 2 previous one are cuttently "overdue" could also work.

The simple issue is a few vendors start more group buys than they finish it seems like, and this is a problem when you have an official sub forum imo. Vendors not ok with this could always opt out of having an official sub forum

That does sound fair. I've not been around long enough to see the failure any/or delay of any group buys, but I have heard about them. I'm surprised anyone simply accepts the excuses or just lack of communication from those hosting the buy. I suppose this is a hobby with infinite patience on the community's end and few choices when it comes to group buys.

It's really not a matter of "accepting excuses".

Say an organizer says there will be delays because of X reason. You are fed up with delays, so you choose to not "accept" this delay. What do you do? You are on the other side of the Internet from someone you do not know personally, on a website that is not designed or intended to primarily be a place to sell wares. You express distaste, but come across as impatient or needy. Backlash ensues. People fight over how much time is appropriate to wait before complaining. All the while the organizer is still working on the project (benefit of the doubt) and simply needs more time. How does the outburst help?

Reviews and feedback are very helpful, I can't and wouldn't question that. But there are plenty of scenarios where waiting is indeed the best course of action.

I disagree with none of this, and very much shows why this is such a difficult thing to find a good balance with.

I disagree with everything said here

Ditto. My biggest gripe is communication. X person promises or states that communication/updates are going to be announced daily but continues to ignore what was stated.. Common it takes like a minute to post on geekhack there should be absolutely no excuse for lack of communication.

[HoffmanMyster]

That does sound fair. I've not been around long enough to see the failure any/or delay of any group buys, but I have heard about them. I'm surprised anyone simply accepts the excuses or just lack of communication from those hosting the buy. I suppose this is a hobby with infinite patience on the community's end and few choices when it comes to group buys.

It's really not a matter of "accepting excuses".

Say an organizer says there will be delays because of X reason. You are fed up with delays, so you choose to not "accept" this delay. What do you do? You are on the other side of the Internet from someone you do not know personally, on a website that is not designed or intended to primarily be a place to sell wares. You express distaste, but come across as impatient or needy. Backlash ensues. People fight over how much time is appropriate to wait before complaining. All the while the organizer is still working on the project (benefit of the doubt) and simply needs more time. How does the outburst help?

Reviews and feedback are very helpful, I can't and wouldn't question that. But there are plenty of scenarios where waiting is indeed the best course of action.

I disagree with none of this, and very much shows why this is such a difficult thing to find a good balance with.

I disagree with everything said here

Ditto. My biggest gripe is communication. X person promises or states that communication/updates are going to be announced daily but continues to ignore what was stated.. Common it takes like a minute to post on geekhack there should be absolutely no excuse for lack of communication.

Since you're technically disagreeing with my statements, I'd like to hear your responses to my questions. 

I never said anything that conflicts with the sentiments you've expressed; it's really not a question of "is this okay", it's a question of "how can you hold people accountable from halfway across the world".  And so far no one has answered that question.

[demik]

Gucci or not Gucci. Only system we need.

[domoaligato]

Even given that scenario I still think that it would be fair to be able to let other users know that the service provider is taking longer than expected.
Example: We will call this the WFD.
If the service to be provided was replacing one cherry mx switch and it has been sitting at the service provider's house for 6 months, this is no longer in the realm of acceptable by most people.
At that point it would not matter what B.S. excuses the service provider came up with.
It is still not acceptable and everyone should know about it.

My reasoning behind adding a plugin to the site vs using Heatware . Heatware could go out of business and just shut the site down and then all this data is gone. While the likelihood is low, it happens every day to sites larger than it.