Author Topic: KBP V60 Matias Click and Matias Quiet Click Keyboards  (Read 17473 times)

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Offline Hypersphere

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KBP V60 Matias Click and Matias Quiet Click Keyboards
« on: Fri, 26 December 2014, 18:54:15 »
Introduction: From Full-Size to 60% Keyboards

My introduction to mechanical keyboards started with the IBM Model M, which is definitely a full-size keyboard complete with a main typing area, navigation island with arrow keys, a numeric keypad, and a row of Function keys along the top.

As I learned more, I discovered "tenkeyless" (TKL) keyboards that lacked the numeric keypad. Upon trying this form factor, I realized that the smaller design was more ergonomic. The TKL allowed me to keep the mouse closer to my centerline and helped prevent a painful condition called "mouse shoulder". I seldom use the numeric keypad in my full-size keyboards anyway, but for those who like to have the option, some TKLs are equipped with an embedded numeric keypad that can be activated, for example, by hitting NumLock or Shift+NumLock.

The TKLs were an improvement for reclaiming desk space and they seem to have been gaining in popularity, but they retained an awkward feature -- asymmetry. By eliminating the navigation island with its inverted-T of arrow or cursor keys, the keyboard gained an overall symmetry -- it could be aligned with the centerline of the user's body and the center of the computer monitor. At the same time, a keyboard without a navigation island was shorter in length, making it possible to move the mouse even closer to the centerline, resulting in even greater efficiency and ergonomic comfort.

Some people, myself included, seldom use the top row of Function keys (F-keys). Therefore, going a step beyond eliminating the navigation island with its cursor keys, it was possible to reduce the front-to-back width of the keyboard by eliminating the top row of F-keys. The resulting device is commonly called a 60% keyboard; it contains roughly 60% of the number of keys found on a full-size contemporary keyboard and is approximately 60% of full-size length. Despite the small size and reduced number of keys, 60% keyboards retain full functionality in a hidden functional layer by accessing navigation and F-keys via a Fn key in combination with keys in the visible primary layer. For example, F2 might be accessed via Fn+2, and Up Arrow might be accessed by Fn+[ or Fn+w, depending upon the keyboard.

Until recently, the world of 60% form-factor keyboards has been dominated by the Topre-switch Happy Hacking Keyboard Pro 2 (HHKB Pro 2) at the high end of the market and the Cherry mx-switch Poker II at the low end. As 60% keyboards have been gaining in popularity, new models have been introduced, such as the Filco Minila, Tex Beetle and Ducky Shine Mini. The Ducky Shine Mini retained a standard layout like the Poker II, while the Minila and Beetle added dedicated arrow keys in the visible primary layer at the expense of changing the standard layout and changing the standard sizes of some keys. These three mini keyboards all use Cherry mx switches.

Toward the end of 2014, Massdrop announced a Group Buy for the Infinity 60 keyboard kit with a layout inspired by the HHKB Pro 2 and a printed circuit board (PCB) compatible with either Cherry mx or Alps-inspired Matias switches. In addition, Matias started a Group Buy for its own 60% design that incorporates arrow keys in the visible primary layer. The Matias keyboard maintains a standard layout in the main typing area by using half-height arrow keys, which is possible with Matias switches but not possible with Cherry mx switches.

Finally, Keyboard Paradise (KBP) expanded its new 60% line of Cherry mx keyboards (the KBP V60) by adding keyboards with Matias switches. These include the Matias Click (also known as the Matias Tactile Click), the Matias Quiet Click, and the newest addition to the Matias-switch line, the Matias Linear. The KBP V60 Matias Click (abbreviated here as V60MTS-C) and Matias Quiet Click (abbreviated here as V60MTS-Q) are the subjects of this comparative review.

KBP V60MTS Mini Keyboard -- Overall

Packaging. Each V60 MTS keyboard is packaged in sturdy and attractive black and red box that is suitably small for a 60% keyboard -- the box is even smaller than the one that comes with the HHKB Pro 2. The keyboard is wrapped in a thin, flexible styrofoam sleeve. Along with the keyboard is a small plastic bag with an assortment of extra keycaps, a plastic keycap puller, a mini-USB cable, and a handy two-sided manual sheet written entirely in English. The manual has an overall layout chart, tables and partial layout charts showing the effects of different DIP switch settings, and tables depicting the functions of the Fn key.

Size and weight. The V60MTS measures 11.5 x 4.0 x 1.6 inches (292 x 102 x 40.6 mm) and weighs 1.2 lb (544 g). This is slightly smaller and a bit heavier than the HHKB Pro 2.

Appearance. The keyboard has a black ABS plastic case with a textured matte finish. The stock keycaps are thin ABS with laser-engraved infilled legends (Figure 1).


Construction. The KBP V60MTS is made in Taiwan. The keyboard feels solid, and the case is rigid and does not flex or creak. The keyboard sits level on the desk and is held in place by four non-skid rubber pads. The bottom of the case is slanted to provide a comfortable typing height. However, it does not have flip-out feet. Accordingly, because I like just a bit more tilt, I have added self-adhesive white silicone rubber feet, as shown in Figure 2; this is a readily reversible enhancement, as the feet can be peeled away from the case without leaving a residue. The keyboard has plate-mounted switches and uses Alps-type wire stabilizers for the long keys (Backspace, Enter, Left Shift, Right Shift, and Spacebar).

Features. As shown in Figure 2, There are 6 DIP switches on the bottom of the keyboard. These provide 15 configurations including a variety of placements for Escape, Fn, CapsLock, Tab, Win, Alt, and Menu. The Fn key can be used in combination with other keys to control some 36 functions. The DIP switch and Fn options are clearly listed in the manual, and functions in the Fn layer are displayed on the front of the keycaps as shown in Figure 1.

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The Matias-switch versions of the KBP V60 keyboard do not include backlighting, as found in the Cherry mx versions of the V60. I prefer not to have backlighting, in part because I usually swap out stock keycaps for solid caps without windowed legends. There are, however, two indicator LEDs -- one for CapsLock and the other under the Right Shift to indicate that certain keys have been toggled to arrow keys. 

Typing Sound and Feel -- V60MTS-C

Matias Click switches are also known as Matias Tactile Click switches, despite the fact that both Matias Click and Matias Quiet Click switches are equally and emphatically tactile. As their "click" moniker indicates, these switches click, and they do so with a vengeance. However, although the switch is loud, I like the Matias click sound, which I find similar to the that of IBM capacitive buckling springs found in Model F keyboards, such as the IBM XT. The Matias click is deeper and more metallic than the higher pitched plasticky sound of Cherry mx blue or green switches.

The tactility of the Matias Click switch is pronounced and occurs early in the keystroke, coincident with actuation and the audible click. Actuation force of the Matias Click switch is 60 cN (g) and the key travel is 3.5 mm, which might be compared to Cherry mx Blue (55 g and 4.0 mm) or Cherry mx Clear (65 g and 4.0 mm). However, the Matias Click switch does not feel at all heavy or abrupt.

I have not seen a force-displacement curve for Matias switches, but to me their feel is nothing like a Cherry mx switch. The Matias switch feels as if actuation occurs at the same time as the tactile bump and audible click, with decreasing force thereafter. In contrast, in Cherry mx switches, the force continues to increase past the actuation point.

Whatever the scientific explanations might be, I prefer Matias Click switches over any Cherry mx switch for typing sound and feel. Indeed, I would rank the typing experience with Matias Click switches at a similar level with Topre or IBM capacitive buckling spring (Model F) switches and somewhat better than IBM membrane buckling spring (Model M) switches.

Typing Sound and Feel -- V60MTS-Q

Matias Quiet switches do not have an audible click, and they have built-in dampeners to deaden both the downstroke and return stroke sounds. However, they feel as if they have the same pronounced tactility as the Click version, and they have the same actuation force and displacement (60 g and 3.5 mm). The Matias Quiet switches are indeed quiet -- they seem quieter than my HHKB Pro 2 Type-S or any other keyboard I have ever used. The feel is reminiscent of Cherry mx Clears, but smoother and without the fatiguing post-actuation rise in force required to continue to the end of the stroke. I prefer typing on the KBP V60MTS-Q over any Cherry mx keyboard, and like the KBP V60MTS-C, I would rate the keyboard favorably alongside my IBM XT, Realforce 87u (both 45 and 55g Topre switches), and HHKB Pro 2 (45g Topre, both standard and Type-S).

It was difficult to decide which Matias version (Quiet or Click) I prefer. The Click version provides a more definitive typing experience -- the audible click reinforces the tactile feedback. However, the Click keyboard is definitely noisy, and if I were typing in the presence of others, I might need to sacrifice the additional feedback for keeping the peace with my family or colleagues by opting for the Quiet version. On the other hand, I find the relatively deep metallic sound of the Click version to be personally agreeable, unlike the higher-pitched plasticky noise made by Cherry mx keyboards.

Enhancements -- Layout.

The KBP V60 keyboards have a wealth of DIP switch settings and Fn key combinations, but while I found some of the DIP switch settings useful, I promptly remapped the keyboard to my favorite layout (that of the HHKB Pro 2 and Mac OS X mode) using Karabiner software for the Mac. Fortunately, it is possible to swap Fn with a remappable key, so that even though I ended up discarding all the default Fn-key functions, I was able to define my own by using Karabiner. This enabled me to swap Backspace and Backslash, remap CapsLock as Control and Fn+Tab as CapsLock, and to set up the bottom row as Ctrl, Opt/Alt, Command, Spacebar, Command, Opt/Alt, Ctrl, Fn.

Enhancements -- Keycaps.

Like many contemporary keyboards, the KBP V60MTS-C and V60MTS-Q keyboards are populated by thin ABS keycaps with laser-engraved infilled legends. In the case of Cherry mx keyboards, there is a wealth of excellent replacement keycap sets available, and I usually opt for dye-sublimated PBT for aesthetics, longevity, visibility, and feel. To me, ABS feels clammy and overly smooth, whereas PBT feels agreeably dry and slightly textured -- some PBT keycaps feel somewhat like pumice stone.

Unfortunately, as good as Matias switches are, they have key stems that are compatible only with Matias or some Alps-mount keycaps. Although Matias will be offering keycaps on their web site relatively soon, these will only be ABS, at least at first, and it is not yet known if they will offer keycaps to fit the bottom row of the KBP V60 Matias keyboards. Consequently, in order to replace the stock ABS keycaps on the KBP V60 Matias keyboards, they must be sourced from vintage Alps-switch keyboards. Fortunately, such keyboards can still be found.

For example, Figure 3 shows the KBP V60MTS-Q with lasered ABS modifiers from a Dell AT101W and alphanumerics from a SIIG Suntouch Jr. The doubleshot caps look great, but being ABS they feel clammy.

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Figure 4 is a view of the V60MTS-C with dye-sublimated PBT keycaps from an IBM 5140 convertible computer. The IBM keycaps look beautiful, and they have the unmistakeable dry touch of PBT. The modifiers are stock ABS; the red Escape key is doubleshot ABS from Signature Plastics. This Figure also captures a minor quibble: only one Mac OS X Command keycap was included with the extra keycaps. This omission reflects the default setup options, which do not include having a Command key on each side of the spacebar, but this is possible using the right combination of DIP switch settings and Karabiner software.

85230-3
Figure 5 illustrates another minor quibble. Neither the CapsLock nor the Control keycap for the CapsLock position had a window for the indicator LED, although there is sufficient light leakage to see when the CapsLock is on (Fn+Tab in my case).

85232-4
Conclusions

The KBP V60MTS-C and V60MTS-Q are notable keyboards that offer Matias Click or Matias Quiet Click switches in a 60% form factor keyboard with a standard layout. DIP switches provide layout options, and in combination with Karabiner software, it is easy to configure the keyboard to various layouts, including Mac/HHKB.

Typing on either the V60MTS-C or the V60 MTS-Q is a pleasure. I much prefer either Matias switch to any Cherry mx switch (including red, black, brown, clear, blue, and green). The Matias Click and Matias Quiet Click both offer superb tactile feedback, and the Click switch adds auditory feedback that coincides with the tactile bump and actuation. Overall, I prefer the sound and feel of the Matias Click switch by a small margin, but if I need silence when typing, the Matias Quiet Click version of the keyboard is the quietest mechanical keyboard I have ever encountered.

An advantage of premium keyboards such as the Topre Realforce 87u, HHKB Pro 2, or vintage IBM buckling spring keyboards is their stock dye-sublimated PBT keycaps. For those who do not like the stock ABS laser-engraved/infilled keycaps on the KBP V60MTS keyboards, the relative shortage of replacement keycaps with Alps/Matias stems is a drawback. However, at least some replacement keycaps will soon be offered for sale on the Matias web site, and it is possible to source excellent replacement keycaps from certain Alps-compatible keyboards. 

Overall, I really like the KBP V60MTS keyboards, and I intend to add them to the all-time favorites in my keyboard rotation along with such notables as the IBM XT, RF 87ub 55g, and HHKB Pro 2.

Offline dante

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Re: KBP V60 Matias Click and Matias Quiet Click Keyboards
« Reply #1 on: Fri, 26 December 2014, 23:06:46 »
Best keyboard of 2014 IMHO.

Offline MGH

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Re: KBP V60 Matias Click and Matias Quiet Click Keyboards
« Reply #2 on: Fri, 26 December 2014, 23:15:12 »
Best keyboard of 2014 IMHO.
Even with the ABS keycaps? Thats the only thing holding me back from buying one

Offline dante

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Re: KBP V60 Matias Click and Matias Quiet Click Keyboards
« Reply #3 on: Fri, 26 December 2014, 23:56:48 »
Best keyboard of 2014 IMHO.
Even with the ABS keycaps? Thats the only thing holding me back from buying one

If the ABS bothers you, then you can buy PBT's from Matias.  I'm also working on sourcing some PBT doubleshots from TaoHao.

Even if the above were not an option there are enough vintage keycaps in the wild to make it a worthwhile experience.

Offline Hypersphere

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Re: KBP V60 Matias Click and Matias Quiet Click Keyboards
« Reply #4 on: Sat, 27 December 2014, 08:45:24 »
@dante: Thanks for the comments. It is indeed good to see more keyboards appearing on the market with Matias switches, and I hope that sales will be sufficient to stimulate production of replacement keycap sets, especially dye-sub and/or double-shot PBT.

In the meantime, it is quite fun and not necessarily overly expensive to find replacement keycaps in the wild. There are several other threads that list good sources of Alps/Matias keycaps. I found another source recently -- doubleshot white-on-black ABS caps on a new DSI POS Alps-switch keyboard; the brand-new board has been on sale for around $50 either direct from DSI or on eBay.

Offline dante

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Re: KBP V60 Matias Click and Matias Quiet Click Keyboards
« Reply #5 on: Sat, 27 December 2014, 10:52:51 »
PS: The Wang 724 has a windowed capslock.  Not sure how it will fit either :)

Offline Lunatique

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Re: KBP V60 Matias Click and Matias Quiet Click Keyboards
« Reply #6 on: Sat, 27 December 2014, 18:29:11 »
When I asked the VP of Matias about his assessment of the tactility of the Matias switches when compared the other switch types on the market, this was his reply:

"In my opinion, the Matias Click Switch is 30% more "tactile" than Cherry
Blue. Cherry Blue is 5% more "tactile" than Matias Quiet-Click Switch.
Matias Quiet-Click Switch is 25% more "tactile" than Cherry Brown."

and

"The Matias Click Switch (used in the Tactile Pro Keyboard) is the most tactile switch currently on the market, to the best of my knowledge.
 
In my opinion, I would say the Tactile Pro Keyboard would be 15% more tactile than a buckled spring (Unicomp) and 35% more tactile than Topre."

According to his assessment, the Matais tactile click version would be roughly 35% more tactile than the quiet version. But from what I've read of customer reviews online (including yours), it seems they think the two versions are almost equal in tactility and it's only the sound that is different. What is your opinion on this?

Offline jacobolus

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Re: KBP V60 Matias Click and Matias Quiet Click Keyboards
« Reply #7 on: Sat, 27 December 2014, 20:14:50 »
I found another source recently -- doubleshot white-on-black ABS caps on a new DSI POS Alps-switch keyboard; the brand-new board has been on sale for around $50 either direct from DSI or on eBay.
If anyone does this, would you mind selling me the switches for cheap (or just giving me a handful of them)? I want to play around with a few and include one in an Alps-mount switch tester, but I don’t care enough to buy a whole keyboard. And by all reports the switches are kind of unpleasant to use, so I don’t want to use them in another board. But if a DSI board is already being mined for parts...

Offline jacobolus

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Re: KBP V60 Matias Click and Matias Quiet Click Keyboards
« Reply #8 on: Sat, 27 December 2014, 20:18:21 »
PS: The Wang 724 has a windowed capslock.  Not sure how it will fit either :)
Please don’t take the keycaps from a Wang 724 for one of these boards: many of the Wang caps won’t fit (bottom row, right column), but are necessary for people’s Kingsaver builds. If anyone gets some Wang caps, I’m sure there are folks with a Kingsaver looking for caps who would be willing to trade for some other Alps caps. (If anyone has a Wang 724 and wants to trade the caps for some SGI AT101 dyesubs, I’d make that trade, though I have a non-Kingsaver project for them.)
« Last Edit: Sat, 27 December 2014, 20:21:38 by jacobolus »

Offline jacobolus

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Re: KBP V60 Matias Click and Matias Quiet Click Keyboards
« Reply #9 on: Sat, 27 December 2014, 20:37:52 »
Actually, while we’re talking about parting out old boards... Hypersphere: I’d be willing to buy the caps from your IBM 5140 that you aren’t using on this keyboard, or trade you for other caps. I think I could put together a set of beige/gray caps to fill out your V60 (including windowed caps lock I think), though I’m not positive all the plastic colors would be perfectly matching.

Offline Joebroniee

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Re: KBP V60 Matias Click and Matias Quiet Click Keyboards
« Reply #10 on: Sat, 27 December 2014, 20:52:14 »
if it wasn't for the dip switch module being larger and the very limited keycaps out there, i would've got one too. I was very tempted on this when i first found out about 60% layouts not to long ago. Well Im glad you like the feel of the matias. To each their own and great review. might plan to pick one up if i ever see them in the classifieds.

Offline Hypersphere

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Re: KBP V60 Matias Click and Matias Quiet Click Keyboards
« Reply #11 on: Sun, 28 December 2014, 09:04:09 »
@Lunatique: I have seen other posts about the comments from the Matias company about quantitative estimates of relative tactility. He seems to be assigning percentages based on opinion rather than actual quantitative measurement, and he does not indicate what is being assessed to come up with estimates of relative "tactility". I would suppose that we might be able to define tactility in terms of the change in force required to overcome the tactile bump in the switch.

It is also difficult to separate auditory from tactile feedback. Something the Matias switch does quite well is to have the auditory click coincident with the tactile bump and to have both forms of feedback coincident with actuation of the switch. I have not tried to assess tactility while wearing earplugs, and I doubt that earplugs would be effective at masking all of the sound from the click. At first, the Matias Click switch seemed more tactile to me than the Matias Quiet Click switch, but I think this is because the click reinforces the sensation of tactility. If I try to concentrate on the sensation of tactility in my fingers, I would say that the Click and Quiet Click switches have about the same tactility. However, I like the combination of auditory and tactile feedback -- I really know I'm typing with the Click switch!

@jacobolus: Thanks for your offer -- we can use PM or email to set up something regarding an exchange of keycaps for our projects.

@Joebroniee: Because I really like the HHKB Pro 2 layout, I try to remap other keyboards in this way. The V60MTS is the best 60% (other than the HHKB Pro 2 itself) I've tried so far in this respect, because it has a DIP switch setting to reassign the Fn key to a key that has a scan code so that it can be remapped in software. In addition, I like the feel of Matias switches better than any Cherry mx switch. I anticipate that companies will start making custom cases for the V60 that will accommodate the DIP switches, and if the V60MTS boards become sufficiently popular, we might start to see better availability of replacement keycaps. In the meantime, I am having fun sourcing caps from vintage boards.


Offline Lunatique

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Re: KBP V60 Matias Click and Matias Quiet Click Keyboards
« Reply #12 on: Mon, 29 December 2014, 01:56:56 »
@Lunatique: I have seen other posts about the comments from the Matias company about quantitative estimates of relative tactility. He seems to be assigning percentages based on opinion rather than actual quantitative measurement, and he does not indicate what is being assessed to come up with estimates of relative "tactility". I would suppose that we might be able to define tactility in terms of the change in force required to overcome the tactile bump in the switch.

It is also difficult to separate auditory from tactile feedback. Something the Matias switch does quite well is to have the auditory click coincident with the tactile bump and to have both forms of feedback coincident with actuation of the switch. I have not tried to assess tactility while wearing earplugs, and I doubt that earplugs would be effective at masking all of the sound from the click. At first, the Matias Click switch seemed more tactile to me than the Matias Quiet Click switch, but I think this is because the click reinforces the sensation of tactility. If I try to concentrate on the sensation of tactility in my fingers, I would say that the Click and Quiet Click switches have about the same tactility. However, I like the combination of auditory and tactile feedback -- I really know I'm typing with the Click switch!

I actually have done the earplug test before (I own more pairs of earplugs than any person should--I used to live in an area that had year-long constructions going first thing early in the morning, year-after-year, nonstop).

Getting rid of the aural feedback does change your perception, since aural feedback is intertwined with our other senses, as this video demonstrates:

I think in general, the aural feedback increases the illusion of tactility by somewhere between 15~20%, if you aren't focusing on separating the two. When you do focus on that separation, you get a more accurate assessment, but you're still influenced by that aural bias. It's only when you get rid of the aural feedback completely do you get a truly accurate assessment.

With that said, we don't use our keyboards while wearing earplugs normally, so it's kind of a moot point, and some of us really enjoy the aural feedback, so we definitely don't want to get rid of them or separate them too much from the overall experience. :)
« Last Edit: Mon, 29 December 2014, 13:56:13 by Lunatique »

Offline Hypersphere

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Re: KBP V60 Matias Click and Matias Quiet Click Keyboards
« Reply #13 on: Mon, 29 December 2014, 12:44:20 »
I have found an apparent flaw in my KBP V60 Matias Click Mini Keyboard (V60MTS-C).

While trying out various keycap sets harvested from keyboards with Alps-mount switches, I found that all the mods except the spacebar from the Dell AT101W work beautifully on the V60 Matias Quiet Click keyboard. However, when I tried the same set on the V60 Matias Click keyboard, I found that the Left Shift keycap caused the key to stick in the down position.

At first, I thought that the keycap might have been rubbing on the edge of the case. I sanded down the edge of the keycap, but this did not help. I then tried Left Shift keycaps from other donor boards, and all of them gave the same result -- they worked just fine on the Matias Quiet but not on the Matias Click.

The stock keycaps that came with each board worked just fine on either board. In addition, I acquired an IBM 5140 keyboard, and the Left Shift from this keyboard worked on either the Quiet Click or the Click keyboards.

It appears that with some Left Shift keycaps, the switch housing from the Matias Click rubs against the inside of the keycap, but this does not happen with the Quiet Click switch in the Left Shift position.

I have not yet done accurate measurements of the two switches, but I had been under the impression that the outside dimensions of the Click and Quiet Click switches were the same. If so, then it seems that there may be some defect in the Left Shift switch in my V60 Matias Click keyboard.

I would be interested to know if anyone else has observed a similar problem with the V60MTS-C keyboard.

Offline jacobolus

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Re: KBP V60 Matias Click and Matias Quiet Click Keyboards
« Reply #14 on: Mon, 29 December 2014, 13:10:33 »
The switch housings are identical. My guess is that your switch isn’t quite fully seated in the plate, something that could be quickly fixed with a soldering iron.

Offline Lunatique

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Re: KBP V60 Matias Click and Matias Quiet Click Keyboards
« Reply #15 on: Mon, 29 December 2014, 21:53:21 »
Okay, I just checked with the VP of Matias about the influence of aural feedback on tactility, and this was his reply:

Quote
I was also factoring in the sound as well as the objective tactility in
reaching my assessment between Tactile Pro and Quiet Pro.

If you abstract away from sound, the tactility and force curve of the two
are very similar.

So there you have it. Those of you who are trying to decide between the two Matias switches, the tactility is about the same, and the only significant difference is the sound.

Offline Hypersphere

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Re: KBP V60 Matias Click and Matias Quiet Click Keyboards
« Reply #16 on: Tue, 30 December 2014, 08:46:28 »
Okay, I just checked with the VP of Matias about the influence of aural feedback on tactility, and this was his reply:

Quote
I was also factoring in the sound as well as the objective tactility in
reaching my assessment between Tactile Pro and Quiet Pro.

If you abstract away from sound, the tactility and force curve of the two
are very similar.

So there you have it. Those of you who are trying to decide between the two Matias switches, the tactility is about the same, and the only significant difference is the sound.
This agrees with my assessment as well. Overall, I think I prefer the Matias Click switch. I like the dual tactile and aural feedback, which I think is synergistic. That is, it seems that the combination of the two forms of feedback is more than additive resulting in an enhancement of feedback over either modality alone.

BTW, as an experiment, I have installed blue 40A-R O-rings on my V60MTS-C. The procedure is somewhat different from installing O-rings on a Cherry mx board. Instead of putting the O-ring on the keycap stem, you put it on the switch step. I do this by removing the keycap, grasping the ring with some small needle-nose pliers, holding down the opposite side on the switch housing with a finger and pulling with the pliers over the switch stem. If necessary, I then tamp the ring down to be sure it is evenly seated. Then I replace the keycap, making sure it is fully seated. This procedure only dampens the bottoming-out sound, but it works reasonablly well. However, I have found that this can result in some chattering; in my case, I sometimes get chattering of the "L" and "N" keys. I am not sure if I like the effect, and I will probably remove the O-rings from the alphanumeric keys, but I might keep them on the modifiers, including the spacebar. I might also try the red 40A-L O-rings, which reduce the travel less than the blue 40A-R rings; this might eliminate or reduce the chattering.

Offline Hypersphere

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Re: KBP V60 Matias Click and Matias Quiet Click Keyboards
« Reply #17 on: Tue, 30 December 2014, 10:45:22 »
I think I have solved the mystery of what I initially thought was a flaw in one or more switches on my KBP V60MTS boards. I believe that the problem is with the size of the stems on replacement Alps-mount keycaps.

I actually discovered this first on the V60MTS-Q (the Matias Quiet Switch variant). I noticed that some keys were binding or sticking after putting on a replacement set of caps, in this case it was a set from an Ortek MCK-84. I had seen another post about Alps/Matias switches binding with some keycaps. It turns out that the switches are rather sensitive to the dimensions of the keycap stems. If the stem is a tad too large, it will still fit into the switch stem, but the increased girth of the keycap stem causes the switch stem to bulge slightly, thus causing it to bind in the switch housing.

On my V60MTS-C (the Matias Click Switch variant), I ran into problems with modifiers from a Dell AT101W. However, I found that if I installed O-rings on the switches, this reduced the key travel just enough to keep the switch from binding.

Keycaps that work beautifully include the dye-sublimated PBTs from an IBM 5140 convertible computer or from an Acer 6311 keyboard. The Acer 6311 caps have two round holes in the switch stem instead of a single rectangular hole as found in most Alps-mount switches. However, the caps from an Acer 6311-KW11 (Acer Accu-Feel with Windows keys and a single rectangular opening in the stem) do not work without using O-rings.

I have also found that O-rings can cause chattering on a few keys. This was with the blue 40A-R rings, which reduce key travel by 0.4 mm. I might try the red 40A-L rings, which reduce key travel by 0.2 mm to see if this eliminates both the binding problem and the chattering.

To install O-rings on Alps/Matias switches, you need to put them initially on the switch stem rather than the keycap stem. I do this by removing the keycap, grasping the O-ring with small needle-nose pliers, holding the ring down on the switch housing with my left-hand index finger and pulling in the opposite directly with the pliers to maneuver the ring over the switch stem. I then ensure it is evenly tamped down before replacing the keycap. If you later remove the keycap, you will notice that the O-ring will have moved up to the keycap stem; however, if you try placing the O-ring initially on the keycap stem (as you would do with Cherry mx), it will not work.

Luckily, I do not need the O-rings on the alphanumeric keys, because the IBM 5140 keycaps work just fine without O-rings -- no binding at all. I also would not need them with the stock keycaps, but I am using them on the mods from the Dell AT101W.

Offline jetpack01

  • Posts: 2
  • Location: Rome, Italy
Re: KBP V60 Matias Click and Matias Quiet Click Keyboards
« Reply #18 on: Thu, 15 January 2015, 07:54:23 »
About Figure 3 showing lasered ABS modifiers from a Dell AT101W... I'd like to know whether all the keyset of the AT101W, including the spacebar, can fit the V60MTS. Thank you for sharing!
« Last Edit: Thu, 15 January 2015, 08:21:37 by jetpack01 »

Offline Hypersphere

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1886
  • Location: USA
Re: KBP V60 Matias Click and Matias Quiet Click Keyboards
« Reply #19 on: Thu, 15 January 2015, 08:07:55 »
The spacebar on the Dell AT101W is the correct length (6.25 units), but it has some protruding guide cylinders and a different stabilizer arrangement than one that would work on the V60. The cylinders could be clipped off with nippers, diagonal cutters, or a dremel, but the stabilizer setup would be more challenging. One way might be to make a new stabilizer wire that would fit both the spacebar and the keyboard.

However, you can now buy new spacebars from Matias that fit perfectly. I have also replaced the Dell modifiers with blank black modifiers from Matias. A color scheme that I like is to have black modifiers and a black spacebar with white alphanumeric keys. Here is the result:

87417-0

With this color scheme, I could have kept the stock spacebar, but I wanted to verify that the new one fit with no issues. The keycaps are still not listed on the Matias website, but they can be ordered by sending an email to barb@matias.ca.

Offline jetpack01

  • Posts: 2
  • Location: Rome, Italy
Re: KBP V60 Matias Click and Matias Quiet Click Keyboards
« Reply #20 on: Thu, 15 January 2015, 08:41:34 »
The spacebar on the Dell AT101W is the correct length (6.25 units), but it has some protruding guide cylinders and a different stabilizer arrangement than one that would work on the V60. The cylinders could be clipped off with nippers, diagonal cutters, or a dremel, but the stabilizer setup would be more challenging. One way might be to make a new stabilizer wire that would fit both the spacebar and the keyboard.

However, you can now buy new spacebars from Matias that fit perfectly. I have also replaced the Dell modifiers with blank black modifiers from Matias. A color scheme that I like is to have black modifiers and a black spacebar with white alphanumeric keys. Here is the result:

(Attachment Link)

With this color scheme, I could have kept the stock spacebar, but I wanted to verify that the new one fit with no issues. The keycaps are still not listed on the Matias website, but they can be ordered by sending an email to barb@matias.ca.

Thank you for your very useful information!  :thumb:

Offline faceyourfaces

  • Posts: 78
  • Location: New York
Re: KBP V60 Matias Click and Matias Quiet Click Keyboards
« Reply #21 on: Fri, 16 January 2015, 19:36:33 »
The keycaps are still not listed on the Matias website, but they can be ordered by sending an email to barb@matias.ca.
I regret selling my Matias V60 so much now. The only reason I got rid of mine was because of those horrible ABS keycaps it came with.

Offline jacobolus

  • Posts: 3661
  • Location: San Francisco, CA
Re: KBP V60 Matias Click and Matias Quiet Click Keyboards
« Reply #22 on: Fri, 16 January 2015, 19:52:44 »
I regret selling my Matias V60 so much now. The only reason I got rid of mine was because of those horrible ABS keycaps it came with.
Pretty sure the replacements are still the same ABS caps (but in choice of white or black, and optionally unprinted). Matias wants to make tooling for all the standard shaped PBT caps, but from what I understand that hasn’t happened yet.

Offline daerid

  • Posts: 4276
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Re: KBP V60 Matias Click and Matias Quiet Click Keyboards
« Reply #23 on: Wed, 28 January 2015, 10:07:49 »
I've been wanting one of these for quite a while. Unfortunately ABS is a deal breaker for me :(

Yes, it's that important. I need a full set (except possibly the space bar) of PBT for any board I buy these days.

Offline Hypersphere

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1886
  • Location: USA
Re: KBP V60 Matias Click and Matias Quiet Click Keyboards
« Reply #24 on: Wed, 28 January 2015, 18:48:45 »
The Matias Click switches are so good, I don't mind having ABS mods and spacebar. I'm also enjoying the IBM 5140 dye-sub PBT caps on the alpha and number keys.

Offline jabbon

  • Posts: 54
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Re: KBP V60 Matias Click and Matias Quiet Click Keyboards
« Reply #25 on: Wed, 28 January 2015, 23:28:22 »
How are the click and quiet click switches compared to the Cherry MX (blue&clear) ?

Offline jacobolus

  • Posts: 3661
  • Location: San Francisco, CA
Re: KBP V60 Matias Click and Matias Quiet Click Keyboards
« Reply #26 on: Wed, 28 January 2015, 23:59:43 »
How are the click and quiet click switches compared to the Cherry MX (blue&clear) ?
Quite dramatically different IMO. The Matias switches are more tactile, have an actuation/tactile point closer to the top of the stroke, and have a much lower force post-actuation; MX switches are all basically linear in feel, with a sort of speed bump feeling halfway through, at the actuation point. The Matias quiet switch also has dampeners at the bottom of the stroke (somewhat similar effect to o-rings) and at the top of the switch return (only achievable by fiddly modifications to MX switches), so it ends up much quieter in practice than any unmodified MX switch. Matias switches are a bit wobblier, which I don’t find to be a problem but which some people dislike. I suspect that if you type a few 10s of millions of keypresses, MX black probably holds up better than Matias switches (or tactile/clicky MX switches), but I haven’t seen any precise independent evidence about switch lifetimes.
« Last Edit: Thu, 29 January 2015, 00:02:56 by jacobolus »

Offline jabbon

  • Posts: 54
  • Location: Ams
Re: KBP V60 Matias Click and Matias Quiet Click Keyboards
« Reply #27 on: Thu, 29 January 2015, 00:09:38 »
How are the click and quiet click switches compared to the Cherry MX (blue&clear) ?
Quite dramatically different IMO. The Matias switches are more tactile, have an actuation/tactile point closer to the top of the stroke, and have a much lower force post-actuation; MX switches are all basically linear in feel, with a sort of speed bump feeling halfway through, at the actuation point. The Matias quiet switch also has dampeners at the bottom of the stroke (somewhat similar effect to o-rings) and at the top of the switch return (only achievable by fiddly modifications to MX switches), so it ends up much quieter in practice than any unmodified MX switch. Matias switches are a bit wobblier, which I don’t find to be a problem but which some people dislike. I suspect that if you type a few 10s of millions of keypresses, MX black probably holds up better than Matias switches (or tactile/clicky MX switches), but I haven’t seen any precise independent evidence about switch lifetimes.

Thank you for the explanation. I am trying to find a european distributor for this ones...I will have to ask at Matias' subforum

Offline brimborion

  • Posts: 91
  • Location: Austin, TX
  • Likes Matias Switches
Re: KBP V60 Matias Click and Matias Quiet Click Keyboards
« Reply #28 on: Thu, 19 February 2015, 22:31:01 »
I have had the quiet one for a couple of weeks and just today I just found the fn-Enter arrow cluster, that's 3 ways to do arrows. I feel kind of silly having missed it (obviously I hadn't read this review.)

The quiet Matias to me are somewhat less tactile than the clicky to me, but about the same tactility(?) as my Cherry MX Blues.

I really like this keyboard. I am planning to get the TKL one with clickys when it comes out.
Buckling Spring: 42H1292,  1391401, Unicomp Linux 101, Customizer 104 | Cherry Blue: Rosewill RK-9000, Das Keyboard S Pro | Cherry Black: Wyse/Link 840358-30| Rubber Dome: various Key Tronic, HHKB Lite, HHKB Lite 2, KB-8923, 71G4644 | Topre: Type Heaven | ALPS: Matias Mini Tactile Pro, 2xKBP V60

Offline rsadek

  • Posts: 207
  • Location: Columbia, Maryland
  • raging keyboard monkey
Re: KBP V60 Matias Click and Matias Quiet Click Keyboards
« Reply #29 on: Wed, 11 March 2015, 00:51:29 »
I recently got the v60-MTSC, and I love it. However, I would like to dampen the upstroke sound if possible. The click itself is not very loud or bothersome, nor is the bottoming out. But, reducing the upstroke clack would be a big win. Anyone know how to accomplish do this?

I was thinking heavier, thick keycaps would likely help. But it would be nice to keep the stock keys for the front printed fn-layer legends, which I'm having trouble remembering.

Any suggestions are welcome.
Thanks!

-R
❤️Keeboardz
---------------

Offline jacobolus

  • Posts: 3661
  • Location: San Francisco, CA
Re: KBP V60 Matias Click and Matias Quiet Click Keyboards
« Reply #30 on: Wed, 11 March 2015, 01:18:43 »
If you buy a batch of Matias quiet switches, you could swap their sliders (which include rubber dampers) into the click switches. This would silence both the bottom-out sound and the upstroke sound, but you’d still hear the click at actuation. If you still want the bottom-out sound, you could maybe even cut the rubber dampers in half, so they only dampen the upstroke.

Offline bahamot

  • Posts: 205
    • bistropolis - dine with style
Re: KBP V60 Matias Click and Matias Quiet Click Keyboards
« Reply #31 on: Mon, 16 March 2015, 04:38:01 »
Here's what the support says about replacement keycaps for V60MTS
Quote
Cause limited staff of KBP , but need work for several different subjects.
Our first priory is new batch of V60MTS and then V80 Matias mass production asap.

And replace keycap of Matias switch will be consider after V80MTS on market.

Visit the Typing Test and try!

Offline dante

  • Posts: 2553
Re: KBP V60 Matias Click and Matias Quiet Click Keyboards
« Reply #32 on: Mon, 16 March 2015, 09:04:28 »
The message I got from KBP is they bought a crap ton of the existing ABS caps and they want to move them before considering anything else.

Offline rsadek

  • Posts: 207
  • Location: Columbia, Maryland
  • raging keyboard monkey
Re: KBP V60 Matias Click and Matias Quiet Click Keyboards
« Reply #33 on: Mon, 16 March 2015, 10:10:06 »
If you buy a batch of Matias quiet switches, you could swap their sliders (which include rubber dampers) into the click switches. This would silence both the bottom-out sound and the upstroke sound, but you�d still hear the click at actuation. If you still want the bottom-out sound, you could maybe even cut the rubber dampers in half, so they only dampen the upstroke.

Thanks jacobolus, I will try it. I'll also get some click switches to practice on before atempting the board :)
❤️Keeboardz
---------------

Offline slaction

  • Posts: 41
  • Location: US
Re: KBP V60 Matias Click and Matias Quiet Click Keyboards
« Reply #34 on: Mon, 30 March 2015, 19:44:15 »
I feel like we need a switch that is somewhere between the Matias tactile switch and the quite switch.  The tactile feels great, but is just way too loud.  While I don't feel like the quiet switch has enough of a tactile feel.

Offline jacobolus

  • Posts: 3661
  • Location: San Francisco, CA
Re: KBP V60 Matias Click and Matias Quiet Click Keyboards
« Reply #35 on: Tue, 31 March 2015, 00:54:24 »
I feel like we need a switch that is somewhere between the Matias tactile switch and the quite switch.  The tactile feels great, but is just way too loud.  While I don't feel like the quiet switch has enough of a tactile feel.
The feel of the two is actually very similar. The sound makes a huge difference in subjective feel.

One thing you could do is swap the sliders between the two types of switches. That would give you a dampened clicky switch, and an undampened non-clicky tactile switch. Both of those should make a bit less noise than the clicky switch, and a bit more noise than the quiet switch.