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geekhack Community => Keyboard Keycaps => Topic started by: Marclgw on Thu, 13 September 2012, 08:37:45
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I believe both keycaps have their own good and bad, QWERkeys have thicker base as well but i believe not as thick as what IMSTO have.
Why do people love thicker base?
QWERKeys keycaps or IMSTO thick keycaps?
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I believe both keycaps have their own good and bad, QWERkeys have thicker base as well but i believe not as thick as what IMSTO have.
Why do people love thicker base?
QWERKeys keycaps or IMSTO thick keycaps?
Thick caps just feel really good IMO
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I've only had the opportunity to try QWERKeys "K Series" (http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0157/7886/files/dan_image2_large.jpg?335) so I can't really comment on their "J Series" (aka Cherry profile, same as imsto's).
The K series keycap is just too bulky to use as anything other than the Esc or some isolated R4 spot. It's very thick, durable, high quality and perfect for novelty keys.
imsto's thick PBT keycaps are unique, not just from a thickness perspective. They are PBT dye-subbed, which is a high cost/quality technique. While SP can do something similar and for relatively the same price, they cannot offer other Cherry quality traits, such as: thicker keycap, sharp corners and Cherry font (yet). SP also can't offer a sub-$100 price without a mass order either. imsto on the other hand, you can just purchase directly from him for under $100. One con with imsto is the limited colors he offers at this time.
Now speaking strictly on thickness. The thicker the plastic, the higher "quality" rating it gets it seems. Essentially, there's more plastic making it worth more as a tangible production goods. From a feel perspective, the thicker keycaps also tend to make a different resonating sound. It's a much lower tone on the bottom out, and with clicky switches (i.e. MX Blues) the high pitched click from the actuation is dampened significantly.
Overall, I think the thickness aspect is driven mostly by the original Cherry keycaps, which are notorious for their thickness and higher quality. imsto's new Cherry replica set is very close to original Cherry PBT dyesubs. Take a look here for comparisons: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=34732.0
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K series is good for custom keys,, but for gaming it can really become a pain to use :eek:
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imsto pbt are a perfect match for Cherry on both profile and thickness. Nice uniform feeling along with vintage Cherry caps. I think you would get a better volume discount from China as well giving you more leeway with pricing for the end product, which is important for us at the buyer perspective.
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Why do people love thicker base?
I have all sorts of sets, from stock filco, CM, imsto, WASDkeyboards, KBCs, SP, and they all feel different based on material and thickness. The thickness from the imsto caps has a unique feel to it because of the resonating bottom-out or the clicks with MX blues when typing.
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All this talk about imsto keys...he needs to come out with that beige set ASAP lol.
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It's all in people's heads SP PBT feels WAY better then imsto PBT
Is thicker more aesthetically pleasing to the eye? Yes, it doesn't look like it's going to snap in half but does it always feel better or is better? No
Thicker =/= better
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All this talk about imsto keys...he needs to come out with that beige set ASAP lol.
You had your chance in the auction haha. Almost had it too.
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I was in Vegas when I got your PM, no way I could have responded in time :o
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i dunno about the QWERKeys keycaps, but I do own a set of thick PBT dye sub from imsto. I use them on black switches and they feel great, make the key feels much more solid. It dampens blue's click which may or may not be good depending on taste. It is too heavy on red. Haven't tried it on brown, but I guess it could be good....
Where can I find out more about QWERKeys keycaps?Nvm, found the site.
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It's all in people's heads SP PBT feels WAY better then imsto PBT
Is thicker more aesthetically pleasing to the eye? Yes, it doesn't look like it's going to snap in half but does it always feel better or is better? No
Thicker =/= better
except with the QWER-keys thickness, you can run it over with a car and it'd still be good. It'd take a good few decades to wear through it, even if it's only ABS. It's a perfect keycap to shine up and pretend you've got a selctric.
I will admit that SP's PBT is pretty excellent. I'm still waiting on the imsto Dvorak sets to come in, until I can compare. I would be happy with either.
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when people talk about liking thicker keys it really means a heavier key, correct? There seems to be 2 different items here 1- weight/mass and 2- shape but the wall thickness of the part is independent of those items.
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The biggest thing I notice about the profile is not the shape of the top. To me, the change in radii on the edges is much more noticeable. Cherry caps have much smaller radii at the bottom of the edges compared to closer to the top. Imsto's are far FAR closer to cherry profile imo.
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when people talk about liking thicker keys it really means a heavier key, correct? There seems to be 2 different items here 1- weight/mass and 2- shape but the wall thickness of the part is independent of those items.
Mr. Consultant, please elucidate how wall thickness is independent from weight/mass. Because it seems to me that the more material is used, the more mass it will have.
We like the thicker keys because it brings the board a more aesthetic appeal (looks more like the HHKBs), different sound signature (comp'ed against standard sized ABS/PBT), and different feel when despressed (subjective, since people use varying degrees of force to hit their keys).
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when people talk about liking thicker keys it really means a heavier key, correct? There seems to be 2 different items here 1- weight/mass and 2- shape but the wall thickness of the part is independent of those items.
How is material thickness separate from mass?
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Material density. There are various fillers and additives that can change the density of the plastic. I have experimented with them and they can increase part weight by up to 40% and still be moldable but there are other trade offs in properties and cost.
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Material density. There are various fillers and additives that can change the density of the plastic. I have experimented with them and they can increase part weight by up to 40% and still be moldable but there are other trade offs in properties and cost.
So what are the material densities of the two caps being discussed?
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hate to be vague but it depends. Of course there is published data for each material but that is in its bulk state and the density changes depending on the molding conditions. In my testing i have seen part weight increase of 40% to 50% but there a lot of options available.
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Can someone weigh one of each cap? It would put an end to all of this.
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Can someone weigh one of each cap? It would put an end to all of this.
second. i would like to know the heaviest cap, so i can buy a set and use them with 55g springs. it will be like typing on a cloud :D
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in my test samples the ABS version weighs about 0.9g and the high density parts weigh about 1.4g
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So that would imply that imsto's thick PBT are heavier due to the wall thickness?
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get dangwang in here, im 99.99999% sure he has an electronic scale hahaha
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imsto look to be identical to Cherry vintage pbt, and they are defineatly heavier than the devlin I have which is same as qwerkeys. I don't have access to my scale at the moment, but can post data later if no one has beat me. Should be a good appoximation of the two even though they are vintage keys and may not be exact.
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I can confirm with my microscale that imsto's PBT caps weighs heavier than standard KBC PBT caps and ABS caps. All R4 caps:
stock Leopold: 1.0g
stock CM: 1.0g
KBC PBT: 1.2g
imto PBT: 1.3g
unknown PBT: 1.4g :eek:
What's interesting is that I have some dark grey unknown PBT caps that weigh 1.4g and it's thinner than the imsto PBT caps. Looks like density does have a huge role in material. But then only real way to measure these caps' density is to somehow measure the volume of plastic for each cap. I think only way to do this is by the water displacement method.
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I also weighed top row keycap
Cherry vintage pbt - 1.2g
Devlin vintage pbt - 1g
and just for comparison
Cherry doubleshot - 1.2g
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I can confirm with my microscale that imsto's PBT caps weighs heavier than standard KBC PBT caps and ABS caps. All R4 caps:
stock Leopold: 1.0g
stock CM: 1.0g
KBC PBT: 1.2g
imto PBT: 1.3g
unknown PBT: 1.4g :eek:
What's interesting is that I have some dark grey unknown PBT caps that weigh 1.4g and it's thinner than the imsto PBT caps. Looks like density does have a huge role in material. But then only real way to measure these caps' density is to somehow measure the volume of plastic for each cap. I think only way to do this is by the water displacement method.
Forstatistical purposes, is it feasible for you to weigh 10 and divide? This will get a better idea for the "average" weight (Unless your scale is less accurate at that weight.)
I would say that there are a number of additives that increase material density. Perhaps one of the most interesting of these is a ceramic. This class of composites is called "Geopolymers" and they are harder than normal polymers, and aren't brittle like most ceramics.
Some information:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geopolymers
According to Wikipedia they use aluminosilicate usually (Didn't know that). Kyanite is pretty cheap.
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I weighed several separately, as I had them in some different colors and was curious. Light grey, yellow, green, red and beige all weighed the same in Cherry. I only have the one set in Devlin though, but they seemed to be 1g average.
That will be the next big thing, ceramic keycaps... with delft patterns.
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i've not used the qwerkeys caps, but i really like imsto's thick pbt cherry profile molds. there are quite a few benefits to them. first, they are a very good match to original cherries, and also to SP's DCS profile. second, they are high hardness PBT with consistent, high contrast dyesubbing. third, they're just a really good match to cherry switches with stock springs. the weight is perfect, cruciform is perfect... yah, they're just really nice to work with and type on.
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I had a thread asking about keycap thickness/weight a long time ago before geekhack went down. One thing that Ripster and I both agreed on (Ripster can agree with people!?) was that we both preferred lighter keycaps on lighter switches. I had first noticed this when I had a Leo and Filco brown next to each other and noticed how different they felt. After swapping the keycaps back and forth between them, I noticed that it was mostly due to the different keycap thickness (Leo's being a bit thicker).
I think that having lighter keycaps on light switches maintains the theme of the switch better, and prefer my browns and reds with thin keycaps.
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Use thick keycaps with browns and you can barely feel the bump at all.
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I had a thread asking about keycap thickness/weight a long time ago before geekhack went down. One thing that Ripster and I both agreed on (Ripster can agree with people!?) was that we both preferred lighter keycaps on lighter switches. I had first noticed this when I had a Leo and Filco brown next to each other and noticed how different they felt. After swapping the keycaps back and forth between them, I noticed that it was mostly due to the different keycap thickness (Leo's being a bit thicker).
I think that having lighter keycaps on light switches maintains the theme of the switch better, and prefer my browns and reds with thin keycaps.
I knew I wasn't going crazy! (Well not completely..!)
Couldn't figure it out myself, and sold the leo before I could swap it with my camo..
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i'm a little shocked that there's someone who can feel the tactile bump on browns at all. next you're going to tell me that topres are tactile, hah! (i keed, i keed ;))
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i personally enjoy some heavy PBT's on my reds. bottoming out has never been more satisfying, lol
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Ha. Well I can understand where you're coming from mkawa, first mech was a Leo browns, which I sold once I got my filco camp w browns. It's super subtle on the Leo. And really quiet pronounced on my filco. I thought it might have been due to break in time. But camp still feels like it did brand new. Mmm.