"cheap" MX Brown Keyboard in Germany. Recommendations?

[JawsHi]

Hi fellow geekhackers,

Intro:
I hope I dont come across lazy in asking for Keyboard advice in my first real post on this cool forum. Writing on a university research paper at the moment I realized Im sick of my trashy "labtec media keyboard" rubber dome. Stumbling across "Mechanical Keyboards" on my favourite SC2 Forum I immediately fired up Google and found geekhack. This was like 3 weeks ago. Since then I have read a bazillion of reviews trying to find "The Right" Keyboard for me.

I was able to try a Blackwidow and realized I like the feel of it except for the click.

I use my Keyboard for writing, Sc2 and the occasional MMO.

From what I gathered on the Internets I´ll list features that I would like in my Keyboard:
- German Iso-Layout
- Mx Browns
- Accesible F-Keys (not like Blackwidow all the way to the middle)
- Would not mind Macro Keys on the left
- Tenkeyless would feel nice, I guess
- Would not mind Mediakeys
- Win / FN Key for AutoHotkey usage

Being a poor university student Im looking for a good "bang for the buck". Im just gonna list a few Keyboards I consider(ed).
-> ( ) shows things I dont like about the ´board.

- Noppo Choc Mini (costly Import, English Layout)
- BlackWidow (Mx Blues)
- Cherry G80-3000 / 1800 (2-KRO, F-Keys)
- Filco Majestouch (Pricey)
- Das Keyboard (Pricey)

Looking at my options my safest bet to start geekhacking would be a (used) G80-1800 w/ browns. The ideal fit would probably be a Blackwidow with Browns, non glossy.


So after this huge wall of useless mumbling what I´m hoping to recieve from you geekhackers is
a) Some advice
and/or considering there is no "perfect" keyboard for me just yet
b) If it´s rather a good idea to wait for a release / pricecut of a certain ´board.

Kind regards,

jh =)

[RiGS]

If I had to chose between of those keyboards, I would take the Noppoo.

[JawsHi]

Welcome to Geekhack!

Well, if you can get the BlackWidow in a ISO/German layout I'd go with that.  Not sure if you can though.

Blackwidow is out with German Layout. They even have it in the german equivalent of Best-Buy.

And the problem I have with English Layout:
I can easyly remap the keys and just have the "wrong lettering" on the keycaps, BUT the english layout actually misses a few Keys that I growed really used to for Macro usage.

I really hate decideing what gear I wanna buy


€:

If I had to chose between of those keyboards, I would take the Noppoo.

I dont need to buy one of exactly those Keyboards. Its just that I havent found any other ones that remotely fit my expectations.

[Ascaii]

Feel free to pm me if you'd like to hear more, I'll keep this post a little shorter then usual.

Hey there...first off, where are you located? If you are in germany and dont mind used boards you can easily find vintage cherry boards.
ASs for the g80-1800 the common ones are MX Black, with the rare old AT models using blues. There were a few small series for the asian market with browns, reds, blues, but those are hard to find. According to a post of a member,that wrote cherry, they are planning to sell an iso variant 1800 with browns at some unspecified point in the future. As far as I'm concerned, that might be years.

A good start would be some used cherry boards with blacks or blues.
A different option, using mx blacks, as well as added programmable function keys would be a Tipro Cashiers Keyboard, these go for 59.99 on ebay.de.

I use a g80-1800 with blacks myself and am enjoying it a lot. For long typing sessions I usually get out a g80-3000 with blues for comfort.

[Ekaros]

Also, just as note for you:
G80-3000 as new is not MX Brown board, but much heavier MX Clear. Used is likely one way, premium MX Brown boards are quite pricy...

[JawsHi]

Hey Ascaii,

I already posted in your markedplace thread =) I am located in Germany, hence the Layout requirement.
Considering my low budget I need a "do-it-all" board. From what I read, blacks would actually be really good for gaming but I would not like it for Typing, which is the primary reason I´m looking for a mechanical.
Looks like I´m gonna pay my local Saturn market another visit. Maybe I can get on friendly terms with blues. I really didnt like the artificial click feel the first time though.
Thanks for all your efforts to help me so far

[randi]

http://cgi.ebay.fr/Cherry-Combo-Tastatur-PS-2-USB-Deutsch-G80-3499LPCDE-0-/250736821538?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_77&hash=item3a61144522&_trksid=p4634.c0.m14.l1262

Cherry G80-3499LPCDE-0, german layout, and probably MX black.

I'm not an expert tho, wait for confirmation by another member

[Ascaii]

http://cgi.ebay.fr/Cherry-Combo-Tastatur-PS-2-USB-Deutsch-G80-3499LPCDE-0-/250736821538?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_77&hash=item3a61144522&_trksid=p4634.c0.m14.l1262

Cherry G80-3499LPCDE-0, german layout, and probably MX black.

I'm not an expert tho, wait for confirmation by another member

azerty, eww

[nolo]

Also, just as note for you:
G80-3000 as new is not MX Brown board, but much heavier MX Clear. Used is likely one way, premium MX Brown boards are quite pricy...

hi, the Cherry G80-3000LQCDE-0 is using MX Brown switches
(see product information for variant 11: http://www.cherry.de/PDF/DE_G80-3000.pdf ).

price is 46,66 €

[Ekaros]

hi, the Cherry G80-3000LQCDE-0 is using MX Brown switches
(see product information for variant 11: http://www.cherry.de/PDF/DE_G80-3000.pdf).

price is 46,66 €

Not the black one I just got(this month)... Cherry uses MX Clear, others MX Brown...

[nolo]

Hi,

i guess you're a german-based person (?).
If so, you really should consider the Cherry G80-3000LQCDE-0 (46,66 €).
This keyboard is relatively advantageously priced compared to other boards with MX Browns and DE-Layout.

FKBN88M/GRB2 (German Filco Majestouch-2, Tenkeyless, NKR, Tactile Action, Keyboard) @ £90.00    
Carriage    £11.41
VAT @ 20%       £20.28
Total       £121.69 (138.512107 €)

Das Keyboard Model S : Professional DE Silent @ 129€
Carriage   free
Total       129€ (incl. MwSt.)

FKBN105M/GRB  (German Filco Majestouch, NKR, Tactile Action, Keyboard) @ 149€
Carriage   free
Total       149€ (incl. MwSt.)

[JawsHi]

Yep,
in fact im from Hamburg, too =)

That cherry board seems really reasonable. So what I guess what it comes down to is if I favor Browns over better placet F- and Macro Keys. Plus, the Cherry cost like half as much which is pretty cool.
I guess I´ll be plowing through cherry reviews now.

€: Then again the Cherry board seems to have clears (@Ekaros).

[Ekaros]

Yep,
in fact im from Hamburg, too =)

That cherry board seems really reasonable. So what I guess what it comes down to is if I favor Browns over better placet F- and Macro Keys. Plus, the Cherry cost like half as much which is pretty cool.
I guess I´ll be plowing through cherry reviews now.

Compared to other mechanicals I have tried, Cherry's lack certain sturdiness and some models lack NKRO, which usability is debatable... Also my G80-3000LQCDE-2(only difference is color) is not MX Brown, even if some people try to claim otherwice...

[nolo]

Not the black one I just got(this month)... Cherry uses MX Clear, others MX Brown...

You're right. There are four different versions with DE-layout on the market.
You have to pay attention to the EAN.

Variantno Product  Orderno         EAN           Layout    Case       Keys       Switch             Number of keys  
2       G80-3000 G80-3000LPCDE-0 4025112058530 DE-Layout light-grey light-grey linear  (mx black) 105
3       G80-3000 G80-3000LPCDE-2 4025112058547 DE-Layout black      black      linear  (mx black) 105
11      G80-3000 G80-3000LQCDE-0 4025112058639 DE-Layout light-grey light-grey soft (mx brown ?) 105 <-- This is the one, i mean
13      G80-3000 G80-3000LSCDE-0 4025112058660 DE-Layout light-grey light-grey click   (mx blue)  105

[Ekaros]

You're right. There are four different versions with DE-layout on the market.
You have to pay attention to the EAN.

Varinat Product  Orderno         EAN           Layout    Case       Keys       Switch             Number of keys  
2       G80-3000 G80-3000LPCDE-0 4025112058530 DE-Layout light-grey light-grey linear  (mx black) 105
3       G80-3000 G80-3000LPCDE-2 4025112058547 DE-Layout black      black      linear  (mx black) 105
11      G80-3000 G80-3000LQCDE-0 4025112058639 DE-Layout light-grey light-grey tactile (mx brown) 105
13      G80-3000 G80-3000LSCDE-0 4025112058660 DE-Layout light-grey light-grey click   (mx blue)  105

Note, the -0 and -2 is only color I think.

Hmm, there is old(all olds are Clear I belive) and new onces which are now MX Brown? Good to know, so depends if you get new or old one...
Have EAN:4025112063374 myself...

So, Cherry has succeeded making stuff even more complicated... Who would have thought...

Hmm, Where did you get this info. Cherry only talks about "Soft" activation...

[JawsHi]

http://www.cherry.de/english/products/keyboards_G80-3000.htm

-> Models

[Ekaros]

For Cherry "Soft" is different from others "Soft".

I just checked my board's Serial No(C 000545 X05), by decoding chart it's made 2011.

I think I should know from having one of these boards now on my desk and also having Filco with MX Brown. Those switches are entirely different beasts...

[nolo]

For Cherry "Soft" is different from others "Soft".

Maybe you're right.
A friend said to me that its version would have browns.
Perhaps he was wrong ?! Have to take a look by myself

I have just written an email to cherry corp whether they could explain me what they mean with soft-click (softclick == mx brown) ?.

The product information given by cherry are quite confusing  

[Ekaros]

Maybe you're right.
A friend said to me that its version would have browns.
Perhaps he was wrong ?! Have to take a look by myself

I have just written an email to cherry corp whether they could explain me what they mean with soft-click (softclick == mx brown ?).

Just search about MX Clear.

Clears are "soundless" and have very strong tactile feeling also quite heavy.
Browns on other hand are also "soundless", but very light and tactility is quite hard to notice.

Please, if your friend has one, ask him to photo it with one keycap off...

[nolo]

Please, if your friend has one, ask him to photo it with one keycap off...

I will ask him ...

I bought me a FKBN88M/GRB2 from KC. Very happy with it

[Tony]

There is no perfect keyboard for any Geekhacker. Your registration at Geekhack.org has confirmed this, since all of us here got at least 3 keyboards.

Have you tried different switches? If you especially like a particular switch, it is much easier for us to give advice.

[nolo]

Hi, seems that in rare cases mx brown was used for G80-3000.

See passage from WiKi-Page:

http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Cherry+switches+and+boards

Brown: soft tactile (ergonomic), Actuation Force 45cN, MX1A-G. Some asian websites refer to this as the "Tea Axis" Cherry switch. Filco Majestouch, Das S, Compaq MX11800,some Cherry Corp G80-3000, iRocks KR-6230.

Clear: soft tactile, Actuation Force 55cN, MX1A-C (although these LOOK white technically they are referred to a Clear according to Cherry Corp to distinguish them from the White MX switches). Some Deck full size Legends,Some Cherry Corp G80-3000.

[Ekaros]

Hi, seems that in rare cases mx brown was used for G80-3000.

See passage from WiKi-Page:

http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Cherry+switches+and+boards

Yeah, new ones aren't for sure. So there have been some models in past, decoding the cherry's codenames are quite tricky, so wouldn't try luck on this one...

[nolo]

Yeah, new ones aren't for sure. So there have been some models in past, decoding the cherry's codenames are quite tricky, so wouldn't try luck on this one...

This one seems to be a G80-3000 with browns (Found on Amazon - Currently unavailable.)

http://www.amazon.com/Cherry-Keyboard-G80-3000-PS2-USB/dp/tech-data/B002LD5FTK/ref=de_a_smtd/191-6852592-2201454

Model: G80-3000LXCEU

Product Features and Technical Details:
    USB connector with PS/2 adapter included
    Uses Cherry Brown MX key switches based on Gold Crosspoint  technology, tried and tested millions of times over  
    Reliability: MCBF= 1 x 109 operations; MTBF > 80 000 hours
    3 different key actions: Linear action, soft contact, and keyclick

The specifications sounds quite confusing for me ().

The newest models seem to use actually all MX clears (if switch type is soft click), as already mentioned by you

[Ekaros]

This one seems to be a G80-3000 with browns (Found on Amazon - Currently unavailable.)

http://www.amazon.com/Cherry-Keyboard-G80-3000-PS2-USB/dp/tech-data/B002LD5FTK/ref=de_a_smtd/191-6852592-2201454




The specifications sounds quite confusing for me ().

The newest models seem to use actually all MX clears (if switch type is soft click), as already mentioned by you

Most(if not all) G80-3000XQXXX Uses Clears, Browns are rare and that model is asian thing it seems. So no luck for Germany...

It seems that Cherry used mostly Clears, Browns are titled "Ergonomic". Other makers use Browns a lot.

Conclusion:
Forget about Cherry if looking for cheap browns as new...

[nolo]

Most(if not all) G80-3000XQXXX Uses Clears, Browns are rare and that model is asian thing it seems. So no luck for Germany...

All G80-3000 with browns seems to have been produced by Datacal (http://www.datacal.com).

Conclusion:
Forget about Cherry if looking for cheap browns as new...

Guess, you're right.

Found something interesting about MX Clears:

Cherry Asia has officially announced that they are phasing out the "soft tactile switches" aka Cherry Clears.

http://deskthority.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=191

[nolo]

If they really going to phase out the MX Clear, perhaps do they change to MX Brown ?

[Ekaros]

If they really going to phase out the MX Clear, perhaps do they change to MX Brown ?

It's not too clear, last news I have heard are that Clears are phased out outside EU, but they will still make them in EU...

Still, I'm glad we have more options, so it's good atleast one manufacture uses Clears...

[nolo]

Still, I'm glad we have more options, so it's good atleast one manufacture uses Clears...

I don't have any keyboard with clears only with blues ,browns and bs .
Therefore i can't say anything about them ...

Do you like the MX Clears ?

[Ekaros]

I don't have any keyboard with clears only with blues ,browns and bs .
Therefore i can't say anything about them ...

Do you like the MX Clears ?

It's hard to say, haven't used them too much yet.

Best I can describe is first brown then black. They are switch which could be used as very short travel. Haven't realy formed my opinion wholly.

I recomend if you want to experience an strong tactility...

[nolo]

Maybe this could be another option ...

ZOWIE CELERITAS Pro Gaming Keyboard - DE Layout.

You can get it for round about 114-119€

...
, the ZOWIE CELERITAS features 18K gold-plated Cherry MX Brown switches
and nylon key caps.  (src: zowiegear.com)

[gilgam]

I have got the same cherry than ekaros, a g80-3000 .

It's a different feeling (of course) and it's very different from black or topre. I switched from black to clears and at the beginning many keypress were not registered. The tactile bump is very noticeable, MUCH more than on realforce variable, but it's quite a pleasure to type on too.

[nolo]

Best I can describe is first brown then black. They are switch which could be used as very short travel. Haven't realy formed my opinion wholly.

I recomend if you want to experience an strong tactility...

Often people who are used to membranes will press the keys down too far,
'bottoming out' on every keystroke when using a blue/brown switch .
In this case it sounds that MX Clear could be a good choice when
browns or so seems to be to "weak" ?!

[JawsHi]

I found an Ebay seller that offers Choc minis and PLUs for about as much as a blackwidow would cost me.

With the cherry out of the picture and considering that I really would just need to get used to live without the "<" Key, between Shift and "Y", a smaller "Enter" key and some remapping I think I could live an English layout. Any Germans/nordics in here with experience in only not using "our" Layout?

Guess I need to do some Meditation on whether Macro-Keys and ISO Layout are worth more to me than an overall better Keyboard w/ Browns.(Gut feeling at the moment: No.)
Thanks for all the advice so far
jh

[nolo]

Hi, if have written an email to cherry asking what type of switch they mean with 'Soft'/'Soft-Click' (G80-3000).

Here is the response from cherry corp (germany):

Sehr geehrter Herr nolo,

vielen Dank für Ihre Anfrage.

Gerne teilen wir Ihnen mit, dass die G80-3000LQC Tastatur die Betätigungsart "Soft" hat, in der White Switches verarbeitet sind.

Wir hoffen, die Information hilft Ihnen weiter.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen
Ihr Cherry Support Team

Else Kling

ZF Electronics GmbH
Cherrystraße, 91275 Auerbach, Deutschland

For all the people that doesn't understand the german language here is a quick translation:
Cherry says that keyboards of the series G80-3000LQC uses MX White when switch type is described as "Soft".

[JBert]

If you want brown, you need the "ergonomic" G80-3000 version.

[Karl]

JBert writes:

If you want brown, you need the "ergonomic" G80-3000 version.

Yes, that's right: The MX Browns are called "ergonomic" or "ergnonomisch", not "soft". The MX Browns are the only MX-Keys with a so low force, that they can be called "ergonomic". All other MX are too strong for real ergonomic Applications.

Some Time ago, I asked Cherry Germany for Keyboards with MX Browns in German Keyboard Layout. The Answer: Cherry does not produce any Keyboard in German Layout with MX Browns - and Cherry does not sell any Keyboard with MX Browns in Europe.

But Cherry sent me 250 MX-Browns to develop a new Keyboard for the German Keyboard Layout "Neo 2".
Now, the Neo-Members are developing "Neo 3" - a computer-generated german Keyboard Layout that includes many ergonomic aspects.

[nolo]

But Cherry sent me 250 MX-Browns to develop a new Keyboard for the German Keyboard Layout "Neo 2".

Hi, sounds good. Please, post a picture when work is done.

By the way ... your signature says

searching an "ergonomic" Keyboard

Do you know this board?

TrulyErgonomic @ 149$ (PreOrder!!!)

This board with NEO 3 layout ? Maybe a quite cool combination ?!

[mSSM]

I found an Ebay seller that offers Choc minis and PLUs for about as much as a blackwidow would cost me.

With the cherry out of the picture and considering that I really would just need to get used to live without the "<" Key, between Shift and "Y", a smaller "Enter" key and some remapping I think I could live an English layout. Any Germans/nordics in here with experience in only not using "our" Layout?

Guess I need to do some Meditation on whether Macro-Keys and ISO Layout are worth more to me than an overall better Keyboard w/ Browns.(Gut feeling at the moment: No.)
Thanks for all the advice so far
jh

So which eBay seller would that be? Could you post a link?

[Mooby]

I think he is referring to this Ebay seller:
http://myworld.ebay.com/aminglau/?_trksid=p4340.l2559

Considered to buy a Noppoo too, because I really like the way the function keys are placed, but sadly (for me) it's only available in ansi layout.

[JawsHi]

I think he is referring to this Ebay seller:
http://myworld.ebay.com/aminglau/?_trksid=p4340.l2559

Considered to buy a Noppoo too, because I really like the way the function keys are placed, but sadly (for me) it's only available in ansi layout.

Jep thats the one. Gonna order one this Sunday I think.
I have the same problem with the ANSi layout, but i came to the conclusion that I can live without the "<" Key between LShift and "Y". Everything else can easyly be remapped. I will miss my big Enter Key though =)

€: Damn it! Just got some money on my Paypal and now that pretty Choc Mini is sold out. Guess I gotta wait for a mechanical a little longer :/

€2: Just ordered from a new round choppoos on ebay. gonna report back once it arrives:)

[Karl]

Hi, sounds good. Please, post a picture when work is done.

By the way ... your signature says

Do you know this board?

TrulyErgonomic @ 149$ (PreOrder!!!)

This board with NEO 3 layout ? Maybe a quite cool combination ?!

The only Pictures of the Prototype for the left Hand:


My develops stagnated since the Keyboard-Encoder-Chip didn't work right the Fn-Keys.
Perhaps, another Keyboard-Encoder has to be choosen ...

The TrulyErgonomic is a very interesting Keyboard. Some Neo-Members ordered a TrulyErgonomic-Keyboard, but no Keyboard arrived until now.

Because some hints from the Neo-Members were ignored from TrulyErgonomic at working out the Keyboard, I think, the lack of more (nearly necessary) Keys for the Thumbs will be the main reason, not to buy the TrulyErgonomic to use with Neo.

Furthermore some Keys of the TrulyErgonomic are bad to reach from the home position of the Fingers (touch system).

With Neo, we don't need the Cursor-Keys, because it's easier to type their Functions with Level 4 on the [URL="http://neo-layout.org/]Neo-Layout. (Move the mouse pointer on "Ebene 4".)

I'm strained to see, if the Neo-Members will be satisfied by the TrulyErgonomic or not.

[Karl]

Hi, sounds good. Please, post a picture when work is done.

By the way ... your signature says

Do you know this board?

TrulyErgonomic @ 149$ (PreOrder!!!)

This board with NEO 3 layout ? Maybe a quite cool combination ?!

The only Pictures of the Prototype for the left Hand:
http://www.abload.de/gallery.php?key=a56nsLJg

A Drawing:


My develops stagnated since the Keyboard-Encoder-Chip didn't work right the Fn-Keys.
Perhaps, another Keyboard-Encoder has to be choosen ...

The TrulyErgonomic is a very interesting Keyboard. Some Neo-Members ordered a TrulyErgonomic-Keyboard, but no Keyboard arrived until now.

Because some hints from the Neo-Members were ignored from TrulyErgonomic at working out the Keyboard, I think, the lack of more (nearly necessary) Keys for the Thumbs will be the main reason, not to buy the TrulyErgonomic to use with Neo.

Furthermore some Keys of the TrulyErgonomic are bad to reach from the home position of the Fingers (touch system).

With Neo, we don't need the Cursor-Keys, because it's easier to type their Functions with Level 4 on the Neo-Layout. (Move the mouse pointer on "Ebene 4".)

I'm strained to see, if the Neo-Members will be satisfied by the TrulyErgonomic or not.