Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint

[clickclack]

Sorry to hear that lowpoly.
Please understand that we appreciated your design and efforts and think it would have a been a top notch offering.
It raised the bar without even coming to market, and I think that is something truly impressive to say the least!
=)

Question now is-  What do I spend all my saved money on?

[J888www]

There are just too many configurations to be practical for production. The only way possible is :-

We could then build our own perhaps?....
assemble the parts yourself as a complete kit....

With limited options to three maybe four MX switches (including Red) already soldered onto the PCB, different coloured cases, key caps etcetera. It would be a simpler process of just picking and boxing the different required components.
People who grew-up with kit-form toys would more than likely enjoy the task, the self gratifying pleasure of achievement in constructing their own kbd.

Or produce limited configurations without purchaser option to configure.

Do not despair, reaching this far has already given us much Hope, the basis of our living. You have not let us down.

Maybe rather than cancel this project, it can be taken onto a different route, think Robert The Bruce and the Spider.

[chimera15]

There are just too many configurations to be practical for production. The only way possible is :-

With limited options to three maybe four MX switches (including Red) already soldered onto the PCB, different coloured cases, key caps etcetera. It would be a simpler process of just picking and boxing the different required components.
People who grew-up with kit-form toys would more than likely enjoy the task, the self gratifying pleasure of achievement in constructing their own kbd.

Or produce limited configurations without purchaser option to configure.

Do not despair, reaching this far has already given us much Hope, the basis of our living. You have not let us down.

Maybe rather than cancel this project, it can be taken onto a different route, think Robert The Bruce and the Spider.

The guy who killed Braveheart?

[TexasFlood]

The guy who killed Braveheart?

Sir William Wallace? What are the odds he'd come up in this forum, lol.  He's actually ancestor of mine, :smile:.

[chimera15]

Sir William Wallace? What are the odds he'd come up in this forum, lol.  He's actually ancestor of mine, :smile:.

How is he your ancestor, I thought they killed his girl or somethin. lol  Oh he had that affair with that french princess/queen or something? roflol  Mel Gibson history. roflol

[JBert]

i should look back through the threads, but you used a 3d printing service for the plastics/caps right? Do they have a deal where we can buy them individiually, and you get some profit from it?  I know a lot of 3d service printing sites have done that? We could then build our own perhaps?

If you're not going to sell it, full,  maybe you could either show us how to make it exactly as in what to buy, or assemble the parts yourself as a complete kit like the kbc people are planning to do, and somehow get some profit from that?  If you don't have any construction cost/sweatshop assmembly labor, it's just parts right?  This has worked for the model building/hobbiest industry for years.  Perhaps this would be a better business model for you, since most of this boards followers are keyboard hobbiests.  That might give you enough money, and show the interest level to take it up to a next level.


 Maybe at least you could start a new thread/post where you give a summary of how to build one, as i know it's spread through this thread, but in concise links, and a step by step instruction manual.

THIS
Having no production anymore is grave news, but being able to build one yourself could at least help.

[TexasFlood]

How is he your ancestor, I thought they killed his girl or somethin. lol  Oh he had that affair with that french princess/queen or something? roflol  Mel Gibson history. roflol

Well, supposedly he had a daughter and it's through her.

It's on my mom's side where the family tree is not as well documented so it may or may not be true.  But it's part of the family verbal history.  My mom told me over a decade before the movie came out.  At the time I sort of blew it off and said "year that's nice mom."

I didn't see Braveheart in the theater and hadn't make the connection.  Then I'm watching the movie in a hotel room on the road and realize it's the same story she told me so many years ago, that she thought was so interesting and I didn't really pay attention to.  So I called her on my cell phone and admitted she was right, it was interesting enough to base a movie on.  Of course then she saw the movie and didn't like it because, well, it's a movie, and about excitement & drama, more than historical accuracy.  She wanted to see more like a documentary.  Anyway.

[cfishy]

Oh, don't pile more work on Lowpoly; let him grieve.

I think most, if not all of how to make a keyboard is documented on this site. I made my own rough prototype with nothing more than laser cutter, acrylic, key switches, a commercial controller and soldering.

for casing, 3d printing is very expensive. you can probably CNC the casing because it's mostly flat. I'm not hung up on looks, so i'd just make a box out of acrylics screwed together.

of course, hand wiring is tedious and error prone. it's best to use a PCB board. keyboard PCB is too dense to be home made. PCB prototyping service isn't too bad actually. a single piece that size would be $500-$900 depending on the options. i think ordering 5 pcs would drop unit price to less than $200 per board. plus $25 - $100 controller. That's just my rough estimate.

switches, stablizers are available parts that would be about $1 a piece. that's about a couple of hundred. cheapest caps are just salvage ones, ripped from a commercial keyboard. if you want special caps, that would be expensive but can be ordered.

so if you make a single board with a PCB, you are looking at at least seven hundred dollars worth of stuff. probably more. About a top end iPad? I think a good keyboard is worth way more than an iPad. of course there's also hours and hours of labor, e.g. PCB design. any mistake you make would be costly. if you count that, having a one of a kind keyboard made would run a couple of thousand, and much more if you want it pretty.

if you hand wire like i did, you don't have to pay for the PCB and that'd probably end up being a few hundred plus lots of work.

If anyone is still interested, I can write up a demo. it's been a while since i made my last keyboard, which i used heavily everyday at work for 8 months. but I don't know exact detail of how to wire the pointing sticks.. no idea what the part number is. i got a few here i can try though. it has four connectors and i'm not sure how to wire them, and what driver to use. Anyone?

[bhtooefr]

Go for PCB-mount switches, specify what keyboard to harvest the TrackPoints from, and sell bare PCBs. Use a DIP-packaged microcontroller, and go through-hole on everything, for ease of assembly.

You could probably sell 25 that way, and not lose money.

[J888www]

The guy who killed Braveheart?

Nope,
Robert 1st. called The Bruce was the King of Scotland and won the Battle of Bannockburn to gain Scottish Independence from the English, albeit for a short time.
 While hiding in a derelict building during a stormy day, he saw a spider spinning its' web but the wind and rain kept destroying it. The spider's relentlessness in repeated attempts to rebuild taught Robert The Bruce an important lesson, "If you don't at first succeed, try and try again", eventually succeeded at Bannockburn.

[cfishy]

Go for PCB-mount switches, specify what keyboard to harvest the TrackPoints from, and sell bare PCBs. Use a DIP-packaged microcontroller, and go through-hole on everything, for ease of assembly.

You could probably sell 25 that way, and not lose money.

Where is the through hole microcontroller? I'm not aware of any open source two layer keyboard controller solutions for popular microcontrollers.

BTW, if you want diodes.. (most people insist on n-key rollover even though they don't need it) I'm not even sure if there's enough room on the PCB for through hole diodes for each switch. Cherry catalog has switches with diodes built-in but i never seen a place to order it. might have to be a special batch from them, and that won't be cheap, either.

How do you know there are 25 buyers? At what price and does it include labor and operation overhead? (say, if you develop the controller logic from scrach.)

As Lowpoly stated, the problem is not making the keyboard, but finding enough buyers to break even. I think it'd break even manuf if there are, say, 40-50 people willing to pre-order at $500 per finished board. That's as-is, no returns. That's probably easier than finding 25 people who are willing to solder 200 contacts and create a casing.

If Steve Jobs produces this same keyboard and call it "Magic" it'd probably easily sell like hot cakes for cheap.

[bhtooefr]

So what if there aren't any open source solutions? Last I checked, there were people on this forum actively developing open source keyboard controllers.

There's gonna be some space between the switches, you could probably get diodes in there.

And, by "bare PCB," I don't mean one stuffed with switches, but not in a case.

I mean, a PCB. That's it. You stuff it. You bring what you want. You want diodes? Get switches with diodes. Don't want diodes? Don't get switches with diodes. You just need to get a board to harvest the switches from.

[cfishy]

The open source development has stalled, it seems. commercial chips are mostly tiny SMD components. i know of three dual layer solutions, one is tiny SMD component (industry standard), one is a sizable board from xkeys, very big PCB with quite a few large components and hard to fit in a keyboard you can see from my picture of Frankenstein keyboard. the German one that Lowpoly plan to use, I have no idea.

there may very well be a way to fit diodes within the already messy single layer scheme. for two layer there's definitely room. and that' 4 soldering points per key, adding up to over 300 total. Not sure if there are 25 people who are willing to do that.

I'm a software developer, and I'm learning Eagle stuff. But i'm nowhere near competent to design such a board. If anyone volunteer, than maybe we can setup one of that kickstart.com thing and see how it goes.

[chimera15]

The open source development has stalled, it seems. commercial chips are mostly tiny SMD components. i know of three dual layer solutions, one is tiny SMD component (industry standard), one is a sizable board from xkeys, very big PCB with quite a few large components and hard to fit in a keyboard you can see from my picture of Frankenstein keyboard. the German one that Lowpoly plan to use, I have no idea.

there may very well be a way to fit diodes within the already messy single layer scheme. for two layer there's definitely room. and that' 4 soldering points per key, adding up to over 300 total. Not sure if there are 25 people who are willing to do that.

I'm a software developer, and I'm learning Eagle stuff. But i'm nowhere near competent to design such a board. If anyone volunteer, than maybe we can setup one of that kickstart.com thing and see how it goes.

Dmw is walking me through his controller right now,  I don't think it's stalled.

I've made pcb's on a small scale with pcb kits before.  I just need raw pcb that's large enough to make my/lowpoly's board from...and then the matrix pattern. I was hoping I could find some on ebay, which should be cheap to build a prototype with, which should cut the cost way down.


http://cgi.ebay.com/PCB-Etchant-Kit-4-Blank-PCBs-5100-/390119196066?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5ad4ea85a2

It might be possible even that kit could work, I just need to wire them together at crossovers.

  The real problem for me is going to be the case/holding plate for switches/keys.

[cfishy]

I don't suppose that particular firmware is dual layers. I could be wrong.
It's always good to see people making custom boards from scratch. Look forward to see your results.

I tried PCB etching with PCB in a Box, and it's hard to etch thin lines as required by one sided board, or double sided. Not to mention the precise drilling. I concluded that it might cost less to have a fab house make one. I even thought about setting up CNC to drill the holes. That's 3 holes per switch, two sizes. if you buy PCB mount switches, it'd be 5 holes per switch.

I don't think the case is as much a headache. i used one with no case for 9 months! If you are not picky about looks, just cut some acrylic and weld together.

[cfishy]

oh by the way, the square holes are not needed for PCB mounted switches, but the PCB may bend so you have to remedy that. I used laser cut acrylics for those square hole layer, it was not too hard. and they hold the switches snug by friction. Also, you can just re-use a piece from an existing cherry switch keyboard. They are usually metal.

[chimera15]

I don't suppose that particular firmware is dual layers. I could be wrong.
It's always good to see people making custom boards from scratch. Look forward to see your results.

I tried PCB etching with PCB in a Box, and it's hard to etch thin lines as required by one sided board, or double sided. Not to mention the precise drilling. I concluded that it might cost less to have a fab house make one. I even thought about setting up CNC to drill the holes. That's 3 holes per switch, two sizes. if you buy PCB mount switches, it'd be 5 holes per switch.

I don't think the case is as much a headache. i used one with no case for 9 months! If you are not picky about looks, just cut some acrylic and weld together.

I guess I have a slight advantage since laying out the circuitry/pcb wiring is basically like drawing/painting a picture.  I have a lot of experience as an artist, and I took an etching/printing class in college as well.  It's basically the same process as doing an etching, so I'm pretty confident I can get some nice straight lines.   One way on this complex of a board might be to use an airbrush and just create an airbrush mask.  Then you just have to spray a board with a protective coating, and dunk it into the acid bath, and you can create a factory to make them.


I do have a drill press as well that I should be able to use for this.

Do cherry's not use plates like alps boards? I need to tear apart my scorpius m10 to see how it works.  I might even end up using it as a donor board since I don't want to buy overpriced cherry mx's from a parts dealer.

[cfishy]

Do cherry's not use plates like alps boards? I need to tear apart my scorpius m10 to see how it works.  I might even end up using it as a donor board since I don't want to buy overpriced cherry mx's from a parts dealer.

Face plates are manufactured by keyboard makers to switch's spec sheet. There's no standard that I know of.

[cfishy]

BTW I looked up Kickstarter.com, it says project creators must have a US based bank account and address. I don't know if Lowpoly, based in Germany, have them. Interesting site though.

[iMav]

Serious bummer!  Lowpoly, I'm sad to see that this 'board won't make it to market.  I definitely would have purchased.

[wellington1869]

Nope,
Robert 1st. called The Bruce was the King of Scotland and won the Battle of Bannockburn to gain Scottish Independence from the English, albeit for a short time.
 While hiding in a derelict building during a stormy day, he saw a spider spinning its' web but the wind and rain kept destroying it. The spider's relentlessness in repeated attempts to rebuild taught Robert The Bruce an important lesson, "If you don't at first succeed, try and try again", eventually succeeded at Bannockburn.

i appreciate the occasional learned historical analogy amid the ranting and raving on this forum.

[lowpoly]

Thanks for finding the right words to help me get over this.

but I don't know exact detail of how to wire the pointing sticks.. no idea what the part number is. i got a few here i can try though. it has four connectors and i'm not sure how to wire them, and what driver to use. Anyone?

The ones I have seen were all ps/2 so the 4 wires are gnd,vcc,clock,data. It should be possible to connect the pointing stick to a Teensy (for ex.). There are some projects/libraries at avr-freaks.com that read ps/2 devices from an AVR. A single Teensy 2.0 could be all that is needed but you may run into timing issues. 16 ports for the matrix (8x8) and 2 for the pointing stick is all that is needed.

DIY kit

A DIY kit would not be easy if the current design should be kept. Hand wiring is not an option then because there's no room for a mounting plate. So the body has to support the pcb, secure the controller pcb, support the pointing stick pcb and provide the mouse button mechanics. Could probably be done as a single plastic part but it would be complex. Right now, I don't see this happening.

If the original design is not important, cfishy's acrylic plate is a very good alternative.

[chimera15]

Thanks for finding the right words to help me get over this.



The ones I have seen were all ps/2 so the 4 wires are gnd,vcc,clock,data. It should be possible to connect the pointing stick to a Teensy (for ex.). There are some projects/libraries at avr-freaks.com that read ps/2 devices from an AVR. A single Teensy 2.0 could be all that is needed but you may run into timing issues. 16 ports for the matrix (8x8) and 2 for the pointing stick is all that is needed.



A DIY kit would not be easy if the current design should be kept. Hand wiring is not an option then because there's no room for a mounting plate. So the body has to support the pcb, secure the controller pcb, support the pointing stick pcb and provide the mouse button mechanics. Could probably be done as a single plastic part but it would be complex. Right now, I don't see this happening.

If the original design is not important, cfishy's acrylic plate is a very good alternative.

I'm the someone. lol  Personally..if it's between simplifying the board, for instance ditching the trackpoint, and saving the project in some form, or ditching the board all together, I'm all for ditching the trackpoint, and having a mechanical programmable mini keyboard.  I think that's the selling point, not the fact that it also has a trackpoint, since I like my tbe anyway, as I'm sure others like their mice.

I think a simplified design that could be made into a kit relatively easily where the buyer could do all the soldering and such would definitely be terrific.

I like the idea of an acrylic mounting plate instead of steel because it would also allow for the buyer to modify the layout perhaps if they wanted, since acrylic can relatively be easier cut, say with a dremel, than steel could.  If we wanted to add an arrow section to the bottom right, or some other confuration, it might be feasible then.  It should also save on cost, since I've been pricing plates for my board and it's not looking too price effective.

[lowpoly]

Here is cfishy's thread with the acrylic backplate.

[chimera15]

Here is cfishy's thread with the acrylic backplate.

Yeah Frankenstein, I saw the vid.  He said he got the plexiglass laser cut, but didn't really go into detail?  Is it somewhere later in the thread?

The only thing I would worry about with the plexi is that it would effect the characteristics for the switch, and it would be significantly lighter than a board with a metal plate.

[cfishy]

Yeah Frankenstein, I saw the vid.  He said he got the plexiglass laser cut, but didn't really go into detail?  Is it somewhere later in the thread?

The only thing I would worry about with the plexi is that it would effect the characteristics for the switch, and it would be significantly lighter than a board with a metal plate.

There's not much to say about the laser cut acrylics layer. I just draw the square holes with Corel Draw and send it to the laser cutter and wait til it's done.

Does the acrylics plate affect the feel of the switch? It does flex a little bit. It feels much lighter. I actually prefer that over the metal plate.

if you want it heavier, just add something heavy to it, like a steel plate on the bottom.

[cfishy]

The ones I have seen were all ps/2 so the 4 wires are gnd,vcc,clock,data. It should be possible to connect the pointing stick to a Teensy (for ex.). There are some projects/libraries at avr-freaks.com that read ps/2 devices from an AVR. A single Teensy 2.0 could be all that is needed but you may run into timing issues. 16 ports for the matrix (8x8) and 2 for the pointing stick is all that is needed.

Thanks for the info!

[chimera15]

There's not much to say about the laser cut acrylics layer. I just draw the square holes with Corel Draw and send it to the laser cutter and wait til it's done.

Does the acrylics plate affect the feel of the switch? It does flex a little bit. It feels much lighter. I actually prefer that over the metal plate.

if you want it heavier, just add something heavy to it, like a steel plate on the bottom.

 What laser cutter did you use?

[cfishy]

The laser cutter is an Epilog 45 watts, I think. I cut it in my local techshop. You can just sent the job to somebody to cut it for you.

[Rotlaus]

@lowpoly, do you have an template for the case? In electronic form? Would you mind to share that, so i can build my own MiniGuru?

[lowpoly]

@lowpoly, do you have an template for the case? In electronic form? Would you mind to share that, so i can build my own MiniGuru?

I still have the cardboard template:



I'd need it back when you're finished with the case.

[chimera15]

I still have the cardboard template:

Show Image

I'd need it back when you're finished with the case.

So what did you do, you made that and then sent it to a 3d printer?  You didn't do a 3d cg file that they worked off of?

[lowpoly]

Basically I transfered the shape to a sheet of aluminum, then bent the edges.

[lowpoly]

Basically I transfered the shape to a sheet of aluminum, then bent everything up.

[chimera15]

Ah, interesting.

[lowpoly]

I'd need it back when you're finished with the case.

I'll see if I can scan those, no need to ship flat cardboard around.

[Rotlaus]

I'll see if I can scan those, no need to ship flat cardboard around.

That would be awesome. Thanks.

[Oqsy]

lowpoly, I'm amazed by the board you created.  I've never owned a cherry blue board, and I was hoping the mini guru would be my first.  Your skills are unmatched, and we were all rooting for you and the mini guru.  In fact, so much so that most of us here would probably roll our own if we knew it would come out anything like your design.  

I'd LOVE to have the skill and tools to make my own mini guru (blue switches, black keycaps, white case, white trackpoint, black mouse buttons), but even with all the parts and all of your detailed posts, I know I don't have it in me.  Even if I got mine to function, it would look disgraceful compared to your finished model.  

That's the most impressive part of the board...  like all genius designs, it looks like it should have always existed.  Like the "forms" of Greek philosophy, the mini guru is THE mini keyboard at it's pinnacle, pure and clean.

Even if the board never makes it to production in any form, it's the great idea that never quite makes it that intrigues the imagination of others.  

"SMiLE" by the Beach Boys comes to mind.  Fans at the time heard bits and pieces as it was being created and were completely blown away.  The record company and even the members of the band eventually gave up because they didn't share the vision of Brian Wilson.  However, there were people who got their hands on studio tapes (most likely session engineers) and passed them around, sharing the genius record that never was with like-minded fans.  Even the fragments of songs were inspiring enough to keep the idea alive for decades.  Brian Wilson finally completed a studio version of "SMiLE" (abandoning all the original tapes and takes as far as I know) in 2004 without the other Beach Boys.  For me the beauty of "SMiLE" was not the finished album, but the years between 1967 and 2004 when people admired what could have been, and used that as the basis for their own creations.  

Thanks for the great board.  Long live the mini guru, the greatest keyboard that never was!

[cfishy]

I'll see if I can scan those, no need to ship flat cardboard around.

Lowpoly, how about just take a quick picture with a ruler next to it, that should be good enough. I'm sure people have to modify it a bit anyway.

It shouldn't be hard to dup the shape in sketchup quickly.

[lowpoly]

Lowpoly, how about just take a quick picture with a ruler next to it, that should be good enough. I'm sure people have to modify it a bit anyway.

It shouldn't be hard to dup the shape in sketchup quickly.

I still have that sheet of paper full of geometry calculations. :-) Took several hours to get the angles right.

[Rotlaus]

I still have that sheet of paper full of geometry calculations. :-) Took several hours to get the angles right.

That's why i'm asked. I suck at math and i would get the angles never right.

[zmurf]

It's not going to happen. :-(

Quote from the blog:



Let me add to that last sentence that I'm sorry I couldn't answer to any PMs or contact form mails during the last weeks because this was looming but a final decision had not been made.

But...  But... Noooo! I want one! I need to get a new keyboard with trackpoint for my work. The one I have is starting to fall apart.

Fsck!

[n3rrd]

Dang, wish you had mentioned that yesterday.  There was a NIB IBM Space Saver II with trackpoint (rubber dome though) here on Ebay but it just sold.

I have one of those.  The domes degraded rather quickly... I love the track point though.  I'm in the process looking for a replacement and it kills me to hear that the Guru board was canceled

[meltie]

I just found out. That's bad news. Like many people I would have bought it. Can't believe it.

[vyshane]

Engadget has posted about the cancellation:

http://www.engadget.com/2010/07/22/guruboard-cancels-miniguru-keyboard-project/

[wellington1869]

Engadget has posted about the cancellation:

http://www.engadget.com/2010/07/22/guruboard-cancels-miniguru-keyboard-project/

gizmodo too

[wellington1869]

omg that magazine cover is hilarious!!!! LOL!!!!

yea, the comments.  it just goes to show how little the rest of the tech world cares about keyboards (or how special we really are).

[hoggy]

A few months ago I sent myself a reminder to check on the miniguru using futureme.org.


It arrived this morning...

[zmurf]

Yepp.. Since it seems like there won't be any new mechanical keyboards with trackpoint produced I will just have to take matters in my own hands. I got a brand new Cherry G80-3000LQC (Cherry MX clears) together with a new Lenovo Thinkpad USB keyboard with trackpoint. So as soon as I get some time I'm going to modify them together by putting the trackpoint from the Lenovo keyboard into the G80 keyboard. I also have an old, broken IBM trackpoint USB keyboard that I will take some parts from.

I will create my own modification thread for this project where I will put up pictures and stuff... so stay tuned.

[kriminal]

sigh....