Author Topic: The Living Soldering Thread  (Read 1855680 times)

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Offline swill

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Re: The Living Soldering Thread
« Reply #2400 on: Tue, 11 November 2014, 23:11:35 »
so I just found out about magnet wire.
I also found out that magnet wire is available in multiple sizes!

How easy is it to tin? The wire-wrap I'm using now is tough to strip.

Maybe I am thick as ****, but why would magnet wire be helpful for soldering?  Also, if you are putting it near chips, are you not worried that it will scramble the chip config?

Magnet wire is not magnetic.  It is just copper wire with a very thin enamel insulation.  This is to promote the magnetic field properties from the current changes in the windings of an electric motor.  Some varieties can be had that the insulation acts as a flux when soldering as well.

Edit:  Just wanted to add that at the voltages and currents found in a keyboard matrix the magnetic fields generated would be negligible.

Ahh, of course...  Yes, I actually knew about that.  I was looking into getting some for hand wiring projects but did not do the research to figure out what I should be buying.  I have some 24 gauge wire right now which I will probably use until I find a good source for magnet wire (to Canada).

Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living Soldering Thread
« Reply #2401 on: Sat, 15 November 2014, 10:37:54 »
to use magnet wire for hookup purposes, just melt the coating off and tin the ends. it's much better than really thin hookup wire for thin projects and sometimes it's just the easiest way to get solid core hookup wire in whatever gauge that's not 22 or 18

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Offline dorkvader

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Re: The Living Soldering Thread
« Reply #2402 on: Sat, 15 November 2014, 22:07:11 »
it's just the easiest way to get solid core hookup wire in whatever gauge that's not 22 or 18
or 28-30 (wire wrap wire).

Yeah I really like magnet wire now and will be buying some. Stripping the ends off wire-wrap wire with my wire stripper tool is pretty tough.

Offline margo baggins

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Re: The Living Soldering Thread
« Reply #2403 on: Thu, 20 November 2014, 10:06:33 »
I love magnet wire! makes hand wired matrix look good too as people go "ohhh isn't that going to short?" as they don't realise it's insulated :D
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Offline SpikeBolt

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Re: The Living Soldering Thread
« Reply #2404 on: Thu, 20 November 2014, 16:19:53 »
I'm going to try going for some ergo-clears mod and need some assistance. I live in Portugal so I will most like order from a european online store. I've been trying to keep it under 100€ since I will probably not use this equipment again. After searching a bit this is my current cart at amazon:

Solder Mat - 5£
Soldering Iron Tip Cleaning - 3£
Solid Solder 0.3mm Dia Flux Core 63% Tin 37% Lead Long Wire Reel - 1.23£
1.5M Length 3mm Width Braided Copper Wire Roll Desoldering Wick - 3.69£
60W ESD PROTECTION LCD SOLDERING IRON STATION - 42.37£
Shipping: 13£

Total: 89euros

I have 0 soldering experience and picked this stuff basically from reading online. I assume the soldering station isn't great, but does it fit for the job? What would you recommend? Thanks in advance...

Offline CommonCurt

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Re: The Living Soldering Thread
« Reply #2405 on: Thu, 20 November 2014, 22:36:00 »
I know the Soldapullt is the preferred pump, but has anyone had any experience with this?

http://www.adafruit.com/product/1597

Some of Ye ole  Keyboards -->
More
OTD Koala:  62g Old MX-Blacks   |   LZ-GH V2:  MX-?62g   |   KMAC2:   62g Tactile MX-Greys   |   LZ CLS s:   62g Vintage MX-Blacks   |   X60:   62g Vintage MX-Blacks   |   GON NerD 60:  62g Old MX-Clears   |   Filco MJ2 (Beige) TKL's:  62g MX-Clears  &   62g Vintage MX-Blacks   |   IBM '91 SSK
                                
       
WTB/WTS/WTT ---->
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Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living Soldering Thread
« Reply #2406 on: Thu, 20 November 2014, 23:03:54 »
just from glancing at it, it is far too small and literally uses bits of 2mm tubing for tips. high purity PTFE melts around 320C, which is about 70C higher than the purest silicone you're going to find, and about 200C from run of the mill silicone-based products products, particularly tubing. i play with lots of fluorinated polymers and lots of silicone based polymers and that is pure marketing copy.

my understanding from working with edsyn closely for years is that edsyn is not happy when you sell clones of their product alongside their product. hence, i doubt adafruit will ever be able to vend edsyn products. this seems to be their alternative, as it hits about the same price point, and has the 'ooh, aah' of aluminum going for it to justify the price of what is either a very large syringe or a very small hand pump.

speaking of very large syringes though, i have need of them pretty often for mixing krytox. next time i order from adafruit, i'll pick one up and do a take-apart

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Offline bpiphany

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Re: The Living Soldering Thread
« Reply #2407 on: Sat, 22 November 2014, 05:56:58 »
There's just nothing like re-flow soldering. Everything comes out so smooth and regular. I've had problems with 0402s, but I think I have those under control now. The QFNs are tricker still. It's just hard applying little enough solder paste =P I see the solder blob on the flatter 0402s is starting to show some convexity. I should perhaps use less paste for those than the higher capacitors.

0402s
82420-0

QFN
82418-1

And seeing those close-ups I think some cleaning may still be in order. I thought they looked so clean out of the oven...
« Last Edit: Sat, 22 November 2014, 05:58:54 by bpiphany »

Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living Soldering Thread
« Reply #2408 on: Mon, 24 November 2014, 21:36:44 »
bpiph! can you describe (pictorially even? :) ) your reflow oven setup? inquiring minds, etc.

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Offline bpiphany

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Re: The Living Soldering Thread
« Reply #2409 on: Tue, 25 November 2014, 03:36:31 »
I have a pretty good intro to my setup in this thread http://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/toaster-smd-re-flow-oven-t6861.html

I've been tweaking my timing and settings a bit. Setting constituting to turning a non-indexed knob... Trial and error only. I have no idea what temperature profile I actually manage..

I built the modified toaster just to try re-flowing out "properly". Experience says a regular hot air gun doesn't do it. It mostly just blows small stuff away... I dream of having a "proper" toaster oven setup. I should probably look further into that. I've also collected a few extra K-type probes I would be prepared to risk loosing. So I should perhaps try keeping track of the temperature. The one I put into the oven is way too slow to do any good.

I use a Lead Free Sn96.5Ag3.0Cu0.5 paste in a syringe from ChipQuick. I believe I got that because it was small enough not to be very expensive. It has lasted a long time by now anyway. Reading up, it looks like a pretty standard alloy for re-flowing.

I've been ordering stencils from http://smtstencil.co.uk/ Haven't tried anyone else yet. They are reasonably quick and cheap.
« Last Edit: Tue, 25 November 2014, 03:38:05 by bpiphany »

Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living Soldering Thread
« Reply #2410 on: Tue, 25 November 2014, 06:56:21 »
glass jacketed k-types will shrug off those temperatures. i have a crapton from omega. let me know if you want some and i'll stuff them into standard connectors (they're flying lead right now) and send them off!

holy crap! it is a toaster! i was thinking toaster oven or small convection oven! that's gumption man

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Offline Edsyn-Nick

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Re: The Living Soldering Thread
« Reply #2411 on: Tue, 25 November 2014, 17:44:47 »
I have a pretty good intro to my setup in this thread http://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/toaster-smd-re-flow-oven-t6861.html
....

That's AWESOME - we actually run a similar set up in our R&D for trying out new stencils.

Offline dorkvader

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Re: The Living Soldering Thread
« Reply #2412 on: Tue, 25 November 2014, 17:50:21 »
I have a pretty good intro to my setup in this thread http://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/toaster-smd-re-flow-oven-t6861.html
....

That's AWESOME - we actually run a similar set up in our R&D for trying out new stencils.

Wow it's Edsyn! That's awesome as well.

I think I was most surprised that he was able to use a toaster instead of the more conventional toaster oven.
glass jacketed k-types will shrug off those temperatures. i have a crapton from omega. let me know if you want some and i'll stuff them into standard connectors (they're flying lead right now) and send them off!

YGPM

Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living Soldering Thread
« Reply #2413 on: Tue, 25 November 2014, 17:59:01 »
i don't have any PMs, but i think you've seen the packs of the things while digging through the millions of boxes in the oscilloscope room (it literally has a scope, a printer, and a signal generator in it OH and it also has my backup lifepo4 race battery sitting on a tender, so i just call it the scope room now)

i guess it has a bunch of thermocouples sitting in it too.

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Offline bpiphany

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Re: The Living Soldering Thread
« Reply #2414 on: Wed, 26 November 2014, 05:51:09 »
I will dig out the thermocouples I have at an appropriate time.. Meanwhile, yesterday I got some inspiration to finally do some planned upgrades to my toaster =) Added some more insulation, some extra mass and rigidity, removed some wires I didn't use, and the very slow thermocouple I had put in it. I also built the solid state relay with its potentiometer into a unit with a wall socket. My multimeter probes fits snugly into that black cable. Now I'll have a power index through the output voltage =D Up until a particular day in my life I was unaware of what the voltage across the potentiometer was, then I found out it is enough to tickle. Today I measured, and it is the full 224-two-holes-in-the-wall output. No more holding the potentiometer by the wires while turning it, yay for safety!

82707-0

Offline margo baggins

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Re: The Living Soldering Thread
« Reply #2415 on: Thu, 04 December 2014, 03:15:48 »
I'm going to get me some of these:

http://www.amazon.co.uk//dp/B007TJ1TRI
http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B007OXBKDC



cheap, should make half decent pcb stands hopefully.
I got boards.



Offline swill

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Re: The Living Soldering Thread
« Reply #2416 on: Fri, 05 December 2014, 12:47:01 »
I love magnet wire! makes hand wired matrix look good too as people go "ohhh isn't that going to short?" as they don't realise it's insulated :D

What gauge magnet wire do you use?  20?  22?  24?  right ballpark?

Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living Soldering Thread
« Reply #2417 on: Sat, 06 December 2014, 16:13:03 »
I will dig out the thermocouples I have at an appropriate time.. Meanwhile, yesterday I got some inspiration to finally do some planned upgrades to my toaster =) Added some more insulation, some extra mass and rigidity, removed some wires I didn't use, and the very slow thermocouple I had put in it. I also built the solid state relay with its potentiometer into a unit with a wall socket. My multimeter probes fits snugly into that black cable. Now I'll have a power index through the output voltage =D Up until a particular day in my life I was unaware of what the voltage across the potentiometer was, then I found out it is enough to tickle. Today I measured, and it is the full 224-two-holes-in-the-wall output. No more holding the potentiometer by the wires while turning it, yay for safety!

(Attachment Link)
yes, because a repurposed toaster that hits 400+C to reflow solder is safe as long as you can't electrocute yourself on the power switch. ahaahahaa

no seriously kids. DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME. bpiph is a special type of crazy. i'm not saying that i am not also a special type of crazy, but i am saying that i've burned and electrocuted myself more times than i can count.

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Offline dorkvader

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Re: The Living Soldering Thread
« Reply #2418 on: Sat, 06 December 2014, 21:20:53 »
i've burned and electrocuted myself more times than i can count.

I think the important thing to remember is that it never gets more fun.

Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living Soldering Thread
« Reply #2419 on: Fri, 12 December 2014, 19:09:09 »
I love magnet wire! makes hand wired matrix look good too as people go "ohhh isn't that going to short?" as they don't realise it's insulated :D

What gauge magnet wire do you use?  20?  22?  24?  right ballpark?
i like 26-30 for magnet wire. anything smaller than that and you're fine with standard PU insulated stranded wire. embarassingly, i cannot deal with 28ga stranded PU insulated wire. is it really stranded if there are like 10 strands? i mean, c'mon! you want the guy with the 200$* wire stripper to strip PU off of 10 strands of #40 copper wire? CMON

*it was like 80, and it comes highly recommended: http://www.newark.com/weidmuller/stripax-0-8-10mm/wire-stripper-0-8-6mm/dp/24M7939?MER=PPSO_N_C_EverywhereElse_None

really, there is no better wire stripper design than the stripax. it's so good that literally every tool company has a licensed or blatant copy.

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Offline swill

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Re: The Living Soldering Thread
« Reply #2420 on: Fri, 12 December 2014, 19:16:29 »
I love magnet wire! makes hand wired matrix look good too as people go "ohhh isn't that going to short?" as they don't realise it's insulated :D

What gauge magnet wire do you use?  20?  22?  24?  right ballpark?
i like 26-30 for magnet wire. anything smaller than that and you're fine with standard PU insulated stranded wire. embarassingly, i cannot deal with 28ga stranded PU insulated wire. is it really stranded if there are like 10 strands? i mean, c'mon! you want the guy with the 200$* wire stripper to strip PU off of 10 strands of #40 copper wire? CMON

*it was like 80, and it comes highly recommended: http://www.newark.com/weidmuller/stripax-0-8-10mm/wire-stripper-0-8-6mm/dp/24M7939?MER=PPSO_N_C_EverywhereElse_None

really, there is no better wire stripper design than the stripax. it's so good that literally every tool company has a licensed or blatant copy.
I have to admit I was expecting you to say closer to 22-24. Interesting. Thx...

Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living Soldering Thread
« Reply #2421 on: Fri, 12 December 2014, 19:19:42 »
22 UL should be child's play for you. if it's not, something's up with your tooling  :eek:

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Offline swill

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Re: The Living Soldering Thread
« Reply #2422 on: Fri, 12 December 2014, 19:44:38 »
22 UL should be child's play for you. if it's not, something's up with your tooling  :eek:
For sure it would be super easy to work with. Is there a benefit to going smaller that I am just missing?  I found 24 to be nice to work with. 26 multi strand was only annoying because of the multi strand aspect, as single strand it would be fine.

Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living Soldering Thread
« Reply #2423 on: Fri, 12 December 2014, 20:59:52 »
for low current signaling, the only reason we work with large gauge (< 28ga) wire is because working with tiny stranded wire is a huge pita, and 28ga solid core UL is kind of the worst of both worlds. it's not very flexible, because it's solid core, and actual OD is much larger than 28ga because of the insulation. it's also a huge pain to strip. even with a fairly high-end tool, you're going to nick a whole bunch of wire, and at the 28-30ga wire diameter, a nick is a big deal.

so you might as well just get magnet wire and melt the insulation off.

i actually just got some samples of some products that might make working with 28-30ga hookup a heck of a lot easier, and hence make multi-board direct wiring a heck of a lot easier, but i'm still staring at them at the moment. we'll see.

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Offline swill

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Re: The Living Soldering Thread
« Reply #2424 on: Fri, 12 December 2014, 21:04:48 »
for low current signaling, the only reason we work with large gauge (< 28ga) wire is because working with tiny stranded wire is a huge pita, and 28ga solid core UL is kind of the worst of both worlds. it's not very flexible, because it's solid core, and actual OD is much larger than 28ga because of the insulation. it's also a huge pain to strip. even with a fairly high-end tool, you're going to nick a whole bunch of wire, and at the 28-30ga wire diameter, a nick is a big deal.

so you might as well just get magnet wire and melt the insulation off.

i actually just got some samples of some products that might make working with 28-30ga hookup a heck of a lot easier, and hence make multi-board direct wiring a heck of a lot easier, but i'm still staring at them at the moment. we'll see.
Cool. Thx for the info. I will pick up some magnet wire.

Offline Melvang

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Re: The Living Soldering Thread
« Reply #2425 on: Fri, 12 December 2014, 21:24:14 »
What about the magnet wire where the insulation acts as a flux when soldering?
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Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living Soldering Thread
« Reply #2426 on: Fri, 12 December 2014, 21:48:46 »
the acrylic enamel on magnet wire just burns at 350C. the chemicals we call fluxs are corrosive acidic solvents such that their corrosive action requires heat as a catalyst. acrylic goes amorphous and fluidic at temperature and then degrades and burns. in every state of matter at heat, it is a dieletric and is assaulting the wire with its non-conductive self. actual flux will atomize and vaporize the the acrylic and other impurities on the drawn wire so that you can solder to it cleanly.

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Offline pichu23

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Re: The Living Soldering Thread
« Reply #2427 on: Tue, 16 December 2014, 18:26:31 »
Hiya, just wondering if I this solder is fine for usage ?
http://www.amazon.co.uk/703-459-Lead-free-solder-0-6mm/dp/B000L97ZZ8/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&qid=1418775258&sr=8-9&keywords=solder
I'm just gonna use it for a tkl sized board. Previously I got some kester 44 from a member here but I don't think it's sufficient for a whole tkl board.
If there's any other alternative which are priced reasonably, I wouldn't mind looking into it.
Thanks !
Collection(s) : Ducky Shine 2 TKL x Poker II x 62g FaceW x 62g Gateron Black GON NerD TKL x 65g Z GON NerD 60

Offline Melvang

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Re: The Living Soldering Thread
« Reply #2428 on: Tue, 16 December 2014, 19:16:39 »
Hiya, just wondering if I this solder is fine for usage ?
http://www.amazon.co.uk/703-459-Lead-free-solder-0-6mm/dp/B000L97ZZ8/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&qid=1418775258&sr=8-9&keywords=solder
I'm just gonna use it for a tkl sized board. Previously I got some kester 44 from a member here but I don't think it's sufficient for a whole tkl board.
If there's any other alternative which are priced reasonably, I wouldn't mind looking into it.
Thanks !

If you can try and stay away from lead free.  It is more difficult to work with, requires a hotter iron, and as a result makes it much easier to lift pads when doing rework.
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Offline pichu23

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Re: The Living Soldering Thread
« Reply #2429 on: Tue, 16 December 2014, 19:25:23 »
Hiya, just wondering if I this solder is fine for usage ?
http://www.amazon.co.uk/703-459-Lead-free-solder-0-6mm/dp/B000L97ZZ8/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&qid=1418775258&sr=8-9&keywords=solder
I'm just gonna use it for a tkl sized board. Previously I got some kester 44 from a member here but I don't think it's sufficient for a whole tkl board.
If there's any other alternative which are priced reasonably, I wouldn't mind looking into it.
Thanks !

If you can try and stay away from lead free.  It is more difficult to work with, requires a hotter iron, and as a result makes it much easier to lift pads when doing rework.

I see, thanks.
So something like this should be fine then ?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/20G-TUBE-60-40-TIN-LEAD-SOLDER-WIRE-FLUX-COVERED-ELECTRICAL-SOLDERING-DIY-HOBBY-/181452656168?pt=UK_Home_Garden_PowerTools_SM&hash=item2a3f6bce28
And will 20G suffice for a soldering job for a tkl sized keyboard ?  :)
Thanks again!
Collection(s) : Ducky Shine 2 TKL x Poker II x 62g FaceW x 62g Gateron Black GON NerD TKL x 65g Z GON NerD 60

Offline Melvang

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Re: The Living Soldering Thread
« Reply #2430 on: Tue, 16 December 2014, 19:40:56 »
You will want 63/27 for the ratio.  There is some stuff going on at the melting temp that I don't remember specifics from but at certain ratios the solder will melt then you have to get it hotter in order for it to stick.  With 63/27 as soon as it melts, it sticks.
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Offline pichu23

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Re: The Living Soldering Thread
« Reply #2431 on: Tue, 16 December 2014, 19:47:35 »
You will want 63/27 for the ratio.  There is some stuff going on at the melting temp that I don't remember specifics from but at certain ratios the solder will melt then you have to get it hotter in order for it to stick.  With 63/27 as soon as it melts, it sticks.

I can't find any 63/27 but there's this 63/37 one.
What bout this one ?  :)
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/63-37-Tin-Solder-Welding-Iron-Wire-Lead-0-8mm-2-Rosin-Core-Flux-Reel-100G-UK-/400727408334?pt=UK_Home_Garden_PowerTools_SM&hash=item5d4d36fece
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Offline Melvang

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Re: The Living Soldering Thread
« Reply #2432 on: Tue, 16 December 2014, 19:53:31 »
You will want 63/27 for the ratio.  There is some stuff going on at the melting temp that I don't remember specifics from but at certain ratios the solder will melt then you have to get it hotter in order for it to stick.  With 63/27 as soon as it melts, it sticks.

I can't find any 63/27 but there's this 63/37 one.
What bout this one ?  :)
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/63-37-Tin-Solder-Welding-Iron-Wire-Lead-0-8mm-2-Rosin-Core-Flux-Reel-100G-UK-/400727408334?pt=UK_Home_Garden_PowerTools_SM&hash=item5d4d36fece

Yeah sorry I just had the ratio wrong you are correct with the 37.  Kester 44 is generally regarded as the go to solder for hobbyists but if it is tough to find I don't see why that wont work.  Not sure the type of flux that is in it so make sure that you clean the board good when you are done.
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Offline pichu23

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Re: The Living Soldering Thread
« Reply #2433 on: Tue, 16 December 2014, 20:03:39 »
You will want 63/27 for the ratio.  There is some stuff going on at the melting temp that I don't remember specifics from but at certain ratios the solder will melt then you have to get it hotter in order for it to stick.  With 63/27 as soon as it melts, it sticks.

I can't find any 63/27 but there's this 63/37 one.
What bout this one ?  :)
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/63-37-Tin-Solder-Welding-Iron-Wire-Lead-0-8mm-2-Rosin-Core-Flux-Reel-100G-UK-/400727408334?pt=UK_Home_Garden_PowerTools_SM&hash=item5d4d36fece

Yeah sorry I just had the ratio wrong you are correct with the 37.  Kester 44 is generally regarded as the go to solder for hobbyists but if it is tough to find I don't see why that wont work.  Not sure the type of flux that is in it so make sure that you clean the board good when you are done.

Yeah shipping's a bummer to the UK. Thanks a lot anyways ! :D
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Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living Soldering Thread
« Reply #2434 on: Thu, 18 December 2014, 17:34:17 »
i wrote a bit about tin lead alloys and phase change behavior of alloyed metals here:

https://www.massdrop.com/buy/learn-to-solder-kit/talk#!97916

reproduced for convenience:

Quote from: me
eutectic (read: leaded) soldering alloys are significantly easier to work with because they melt at a much lower (read: safer) temperature, and are less likely to yield "cold joints" when cooled. "eutectic" means "behaves like a homogeneous substance", in that eutectic alloys have a single phase transition temperature in which the alloy goes from solid to liquid and back.

"cold" joints are caused by micro-fractures that develop as an alloy in liquid state is cooling. non-eutectic alloys have intra-alloy bulk sections that solidify before other sections of the mass, and very slight movement can cause these bits that are cooling out of phase to solidify in such a way as to leave large voids in the joint. These voids do not conduct electricity as well as a voidless mass of bulk material.

You may remember the famous "red ring of death" from the first generation of xbox 360s. cold joints that formed over long periods of heating and cooling cycles on bga balls was the root cause of that issue.

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Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living Soldering Thread
« Reply #2435 on: Thu, 18 December 2014, 18:26:15 »
to get a little further into the weeds on that one, there are really two definitions of eutectic. the first is theoretical, and has to do with the physical chemistry of an ideal piece of bulk material in an ideal environment. the second is empirical, and like most things, reifies the theoretical assumptions and finds that life is just more complicated than those scientist pinheads could possibly imagine.

FIRST: the ideal theoretical definition

let us consider a single "grain" of the material in a vacuum with an instantaneous and perfect model of the effects of power exerted on the bulk material.

let's go over that sentence again. by "a single grain of material", i mean that the bulk material (imagine a block of solder) is a single continuous uninterrupted lattice (linear algebraic and not abstract algebraic) of the component molecules of the alloy. for simplicity, let's just imagine a single cube where each edge of the cube is a bond between constituent molecules.

now let's put that cube of metal in space. ta-da! it's in space.

ok, by ideal model of power, what i mean is that, when you use energy to heat the block of metal, every part of the block is always at the same temperature. (more clearly, the entropy of each constituent structure is equal at all times). if you heat any bit, you heat all the bits and v.v.

so with many unrealistic assumptions established, we define a eutectic substance to be one for which that single piece of material of ours releases all its bonds at exactly the same time when it reaches the single "melting temperature". so our lead/tin alloy, for example, goes from being a block of lead/tin hybrid material to a pot of lead and tin liquids floating around the instant it hits its melting temperature.

THE SECOND: empirical definition

in practice, we just want to know if the alloy is _indistinguishable_ from an alloy that is eutectic. that is, can we, with the best of our current technology, measure the difference in melting points of the constituent parts of the alloy?

to see why this is a tricky and important distinction, let's step back for a second and look at this block of material again and start blowing away our theoretical assumptions. first, in practice a single piece of bulk material is effectively NEVER a single "grain" of uninterrupted structure. in fact, that is the the crux of material science. if all materials just kind of formed their perfect ideal shapes when you shoved all the atoms together, we wouldn't need all these fancy carbon fibers, fiber fibers, silk fibers, and super comfortable fleec... ok, sorry, it's cold here.

anyway, so in actuality, if you take an imaging device like an "x-ray" imager and shoot a bunch of high energy high frequency little energy thingamabobs at a piece of steel, what you're actually going to see is a random pattern of solid material that looks well structured, and between these will be some form of misshapen solid and finally, there will be bits of "void", that is, empty space. so you can just cross this assumption off the list with prejudice.

next, energy takes time to do work, and hence, material properties like temperature take time to propagate through a piece of bulk solid. in fact, it's a double whammy, since we learned above that the solid isn't even a completely uniform solid! so the energy expended is doing more work in the solid regions and less work in the voided regions. oof!

finally, we're not in space (but i wish we were :( ), so there will be the competing effects of atmospheric gases cooling the outside of the material, the potential for things like gas and water to have gotten into the material lattices and be filling the voids, etc.

SO, in practice, the useful measure of whether a material is eutectic or not is whether we can successfully observe a point in the material's phase change behavior in which we see liquidus of one constituent of the alloy but solidus of another. we can look at this behavior using a few tools. one is called a differential scanning calorimeter. another neat one is called electron energy loss or energy-dispersive spectroscopy (two closely related methods actually). the way to think about all of these is that you're looking for the number of atomic units of each constituent metal of the alloy at every step of the phase change. a perfect eutectic material will always measure out to the constituent ratios of the alloy at all points in the melting process. however, there is wiggle room in our ability to measure, which is reflected in the word "always". replace "always" with "as quickly as we can measure it", and you have a good empirical definition.

basically, if we can't identify a point at which we have more of one constituent metal melted than the others, we empirically say that the material is euctetic.

OK, out of the weeds! aren't you happy?

there are a number of effective eutectic and actually eutectic tin alloys out there, but they generally have high silver content, which makes them significantly more expensive. they also have issues with material creep over time due to mechanical disruption, and some other stuff. however, as a hobbyist, there really isn't any reason to forgo the lead in your solder. you're making a handful of parts, not shipping millions of parts around the world. use the easiest/cheapest and most practical solder possible. that happens to be 63/37 sn/pb. it's theoretically and practically eutectic, has a low, safer melting point, and is pretty darned cheap. the result is workhorse solder that's easy to work with and builds one's confidence.

and that's how a lot of science turns into a gut decision about money.

to all the brilliant friends who have left us, and all the students who climb on their shoulders.

Offline Bucake

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Re: The Living Soldering Thread
« Reply #2436 on: Fri, 19 December 2014, 00:28:15 »
i've been interested in lubing my plate-mounted keyboard for a long while, but i've never soldered in my life (and i don't own any soldering equipment).

so, what would be a good place for me to start..?
i want my equipment to be reliable and last me a long while, but of course it doesn't have to be too fancy.
it's likely i'll only use the soldering equipment for things like swapping switches or lube parts of mice/keyboards.

what would be a solid soldering iron for someone like me?
and what will i definitely need, beside the soldering iron itself?
(i ask so i won't forget to buy a necessity.. :D)

there really is no budget yet. i'm simply still too ignorant to set a budget.
it certainly doesn't have to be cheap. (i value good quality!)
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Offline loud_asian

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Re: The Living Soldering Thread
« Reply #2437 on: Sat, 20 December 2014, 05:33:23 »
The solder pad on one of my LEDs got burnt off on my Pure. How would I go about fixing this?
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Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living Soldering Thread
« Reply #2438 on: Sat, 20 December 2014, 08:19:47 »
a couple different options. i'll list some offhand, but if you search through the thread, you'll find plenty more.

1) find another pad that is (well, was) connected to the damaged pad and solder a jumper wire from that pad to the component leg

2) scrape off a bit of pcb mask to expose the trace that led to the damaged pad. note that you may have to do this anyway to find another pad to run a jumper wire from. solder the component to that bit of trace

3) use a conductive pen to "draw" a new pad. there are silver-based conductive pens out there, but they are a HUGE pain in the ass to use. i highly recommend a graphite conductive ink like bare conductive instead. it has higher resistance than silver, but for a tiny little solder pad it's negligible. the trick is that it won't tin, so you're still soldering to the exposed trace that you scratched the mask off of, but you get a better electrical connection because the ink is sitting under the solder blob.

4) epoxy a new pad on using something like chip-quik repair pads. they use conductive epoxies and new pads of the proper size and material. this is the proper way to do repair and rework, but it's kind of a pain in the butt. you have to apply the epoxy using a very precise tool and then place the new pad using a very precise tool, then wait for the epoxy to fully care, and then be incredibly careful when soldering to the new pad. chip-quik pad sets are also pretty expensive, and for small pads, you need to be doing all of this under a loupe.

hope that helps. search the thread for some nice pictures of ad hoc repairs.

to all the brilliant friends who have left us, and all the students who climb on their shoulders.

Offline Blaise170

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Re: The Living Soldering Thread
« Reply #2439 on: Sun, 21 December 2014, 23:58:30 »
Hey, I was hoping for some help finding soldering iron tips. I own a Weller 40W (this) and I need some conical pencil tips.
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Offline joey

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Re: The Living Soldering Thread
« Reply #2440 on: Sun, 28 December 2014, 07:21:24 »
Can anyone recommend a good soldering iron/station and where to get it in the UK?

Has anyone bought the Hakko FX888D from http://www.dancap.co.uk/soldering/fx888D.html ? Since lots of people recommend this.. seems like it would be a good buy.
I also came across http://www.pcb-soldering.co.uk/ but I haven't looked at it too closely yet.

Offline Dgsbllx

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Re: The Living Soldering Thread
« Reply #2441 on: Sun, 28 December 2014, 07:26:28 »
Can anyone recommend a good soldering iron/station and where to get it in the UK?

Has anyone bought the Hakko FX888D from http://www.dancap.co.uk/soldering/fx888D.html ? Since lots of people recommend this.. seems like it would be a good buy.
I also came across http://www.pcb-soldering.co.uk/ but I haven't looked at it too closely yet.

Mine came from Dancap on the recommendation of someone else from here (name evades me at the minute   :confused:). Definitely worth a purchase, both the iron and Dancap are brilliant.

Offline joey

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Re: The Living Soldering Thread
« Reply #2442 on: Mon, 29 December 2014, 06:30:53 »
Can anyone recommend a good soldering iron/station and where to get it in the UK?

Has anyone bought the Hakko FX888D from http://www.dancap.co.uk/soldering/fx888D.html ? Since lots of people recommend this.. seems like it would be a good buy.
I also came across http://www.pcb-soldering.co.uk/ but I haven't looked at it too closely yet.

Mine came from Dancap on the recommendation of someone else from here (name evades me at the minute   :confused:). Definitely worth a purchase, both the iron and Dancap are brilliant.
I just went ahead and bought from Dancap!

Offline fknraiden

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Re: The Living Soldering Thread
« Reply #2443 on: Wed, 31 December 2014, 17:10:52 »
Maybe some can shed some light on this. Used my 80w radio Shack Station to do some work last night. And when I tried to use it today, it makes a clicking sound and won't display anything on the screen. 

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Offline swill

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Re: The Living Soldering Thread
« Reply #2444 on: Wed, 31 December 2014, 21:13:04 »
Maybe some can shed some light on this. Used my 80w radio Shack Station to do some work last night. And when I tried to use it today, it makes a clicking sound and won't display anything on the screen.
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Offline quochung1989

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Re: The Living Soldering Thread
« Reply #2445 on: Thu, 01 January 2015, 19:51:28 »
What solder wick is the best? NTE SW01-5 No-Clean Wick #3 Green 0.075" x 5 ft.

Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living Soldering Thread
« Reply #2446 on: Fri, 02 January 2015, 15:53:47 »
not crazy about NTE anything. chemtronics, alphametals (now just alpha: http://alpha.alent.com/), MG chemicals, kester are all high quality chemicals and soldering consumables manufacturers. i would stick to them.

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Offline tgujay

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Re: The Living Soldering Thread
« Reply #2447 on: Sat, 03 January 2015, 12:57:42 »
So I got an FX-888D for christmas and some Kester 44 63/37, what is the best temp for this?  I keep seeing 361F.
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Offline dorkvader

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Re: The Living Soldering Thread
« Reply #2448 on: Sat, 03 January 2015, 22:41:42 »
So I got an FX-888D for christmas and some Kester 44 63/37, what is the best temp for this?  I keep seeing 361F.

Depends on what you're soldering of course. And your preference. If you set your iron hotter, you can get the solder and pad heated faster and move quicker (and possibly give less heat to the component) lower temperatures are safer in other ways.

I set my pace to about 500 - 650F (or higher) depending. I think you were seeing 361C in places maybe? Solder only melts at around 360F
« Last Edit: Sat, 03 January 2015, 22:43:51 by dorkvader »

Offline jacobolus

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Re: The Living Soldering Thread
« Reply #2449 on: Sun, 04 January 2015, 05:14:36 »
You want to set your temperature such that, with whatever size tip and joint you’re dealing with, you can heat the joint enough to melt solder within 2–3 seconds. I find ~600–650° F on a Hakko 888D works pretty well on most through-hole keyboard stuff with a smallish chisel tip (both for soldering and desoldering).

The important quantity is not temperature per se, but heat flow to the joint. I recommend watching those Pace soldering videos (from the 70s or something) to understand the basics.