[IC] Another Universal TKL plate / PCB GB

[SpAmRaY]

The Phantom is bpiphany's baby. He has everything set up with PCBwing, so if another GB round were to be done for the Phantom PCB, it would need to go through him. No sense in paying setup costs, when future orders of the same PCB don't charge for it. You can find his email address silkscreened on the front of the Phantom PCB.

For the universal TKL plate, WFD has the drawing files, so he can probably coordinate things through his laser cutter. However, as you know, he is on vacation, and also very busy.

A little off-topic.

Jd do you know why for R2 the holes in the extra holes for pcb style switches were removed from the PCB? I'm sure I've asked before but I can't remember.

Phantom PCB never had PCB mounting holes for switches. It originally did have holes so that you could release the switch housing top clips from the bottom of the PCB, but bpiphany removed those in the new revision PCBs, because they aren't necessary at all. He also changed some stuff on the silkscreen.

Doh! I just saw extra holes....didn't actually attempt to do anything with them haha. I thought had read in R1 they were for PCB switches somewhere..hmmm....missinformation strikes again. And yeah I noticed differencesin the text sizes etc.

[WhiteFireDragon]

A few things I want to mention. OP, you mentioned PCB a few times, and the only TKL PCB we can get are phantoms, which I have no ties to. bphiphany designed it and controls the production of them. Teensy you can just buy on your own.

The plates however, I can help with those. I designed and ran the GB for all universal TKL plates, and all phantom R2 plates.

Cost between raw material is not much (only a few bucks). Majority of the cost in the plate is the laser machine time and programming fees. I had batches of aluminum and stainless steel plates before, and I personally like the steel one better for the weight and rigidity. Quality of the cuts on aluminum is a tad lower because they're more prone to local warping from high temps. Stainless steel is more resistant to temperature warping, so the edges turn out a little sharper and cleaner. As for color, anodizing adds a big chunk to cost and is only available for aluminum. Powder coating is also an option, but costs even more than anodizing, but it can be done for both aluminum or steel.

As for sourcing manufacturers, you'll have to source a company that has a laser cutter with at least 3kw with tolerances of 0.002" or better, otherwise switch and stabilizer holes will be too loose. I sourced about 15 different local places around me, price and quality varies between different companies/machines, so prototype is a must. You might be able to source cheaper places that are further, but shipping these heavy plates around is not cheap (hence why I did everything local, and picked them up myself).

I can help you get these made, or give you contact info for the local company. But just letting you know ahead of time that they do not deal with individuals, and you must send official blueprints (not just a raw DXF file) before they go through quoting process. If you want to do it through my account, then it'll be a few weeks before I have time to run another batch.

I have some left after shipping out the preorders, but there were more people that wanted plates than the numbers of extras I have. Not sure what the fairest way to sell them would be.

[CPTBadAss]

But just letting you know ahead of time that they do not deal with individuals, and you must send official blueprints (not just a raw DXF file) before they go through quoting process.

If anyone ends up CAD modeling their own plates and needs someone to check the drawing/blueprint, please let me know. I'd be happy to look it over for free.

[CalmB4tehPwn]

A few things I want to mention. OP, you mentioned PCB a few times, and the only TKL PCB we can get are phantoms, which I have no ties to. bphiphany designed it and controls the production of them. Teensy you can just buy on your own.

The plates however, I can help with those. I designed and ran the GB for all universal TKL plates, and all phantom R2 plates.

Cost between raw material is not much (only a few bucks). Majority of the cost in the plate is the laser machine time and programming fees. I had batches of aluminum and stainless steel plates before, and I personally like the steel one better for the weight and rigidity. Quality of the cuts on aluminum is a tad lower because they're more prone to local warping from high temps. Stainless steel is more resistant to temperature warping, so the edges turn out a little sharper and cleaner. As for color, anodizing adds a big chunk to cost and is only available for aluminum. Powder coating is also an option, but costs even more than anodizing, but it can be done for both aluminum or steel.

As for sourcing manufacturers, you'll have to source a company that has a laser cutter with at least 3kw with tolerances of 0.002" or better, otherwise switch and stabilizer holes will be too loose. I sourced about 15 different local places around me, price and quality varies between different companies/machines, so prototype is a must. You might be able to source cheaper places that are further, but shipping these heavy plates around is not cheap (hence why I did everything local, and picked them up myself).

I can help you get these made, or give you contact info for the local company. But just letting you know ahead of time that they do not deal with individuals, and you must send official blueprints (not just a raw DXF file) before they go through quoting process. If you want to do it through my account, then it'll be a few weeks before I have time to run another batch.

I have some left after shipping out the preorders, but there were more people that wanted plates than the numbers of extras I have. Not sure what the fairest way to sell them would be.

Thanks for laying some info down, WFD. Unfortunately, being in Korea, local isn't an option for me simply because I don't speak Hongul. And I can see why working local would significantly reduce the cost on this.

Question. stainless steel harder to work, so does that leave it on the machine longer? Therefore adding more time and cost to the production per plate?

If there is any way to go through the same machinists that you've gone through in the past, I'd rather do that opposed to trying to prototype a bunch of plates from manufacturers we're not familiar with. If we've got a tried and true machinist on hand, I don't see any reason not to try and use them.

I know you're busy, as was one of the first things mentioned in this forum, but if you're willing to take over the plate part of the GB, maybe I can work the PCB side. Work all of the admin over here, get all of the GH side together, and in the end just give you a number, and the money to move forward with it. Or if you'd rather take the plate GB as a whole, I'd be down for that as well.

I'm very curious how much anodizing would add to production costs, do your machinist do anodizing, or would we need to send it someplace else, adding even more to the costs involved?

[MOZ]

Hey WFD,  if you don't mind,  send me the plate drawings and I'll get quotes from the local manufacturers here.

[whiskytango]

I have some left after shipping out the preorders, but there were more people that wanted plates than the numbers of extras I have. Not sure what the fairest way to sell them would be.

I have a suggestion. If you have kept up with who has asked for one, have a lottery.

Of course I am sure you have received a million PMs about them, not to mention people posting to request one also, so it might be overly burdensome to figure out who has asked. Just an idea.

[Vintage]

Hmmmm... I was in favor of anodized aluminum but after WFD's wise words I think stainless steel may be the way to go. It's higher quality (even though i like the idea of a lighter but still solid keyboard) and still looks pretty nice. Since anodizing will likely add a lot to the overall cost... we may be better off letting everyone get plain stainless and paint it if they wish. I have seen some users do some really cool stuff with paint and it would probably be cheaper and less limited in terms of color/finish choice.


Just my two cents

[badboybry9000]

I'd be interested in another group buy. I got into mechanical keyboards just a little too late and missed the first group buy.

[randompony]

maybe i should contact bpiphnay about it but would it be possible to have holes for pcb mounted cherry stabs so we could use universal plates?

I really want the 7bit bottom row but I really don't want to cut up the f-row of my case.

[CalmB4tehPwn]

In the interest of transparency, I'll admit that I've done nothing with this GB. I bit off a bit much and already am spearheading two groupbuys that are moving ahead. This is still something I would like to, and wholeheartedly plan to, move ahead with. But, it is not a priority. Once I get the other two GBs under way, I'll be looking at making moves on this one, but I'm sending emails back and forth all day long already, and I'd rather not have several group buys finish all at once and end up with thousands of dollars of stuff in my barracks to figure out shipping for, so I'm trying to stagger it a bit.

Patience is what I'm asking on this one.

Did anyone have any luck nailing down a machinist for the plates?

[MOZ]

I'm still waiting for WFD to respond, once I have the designs, I can look to work something put for the plates as well as a case.

[CalmB4tehPwn]

Cool. Once things settle down on my end, I'll PM Epipany

[MOZ]

Cool. Once things settle down on my end, I'll PM Epipany

Ahead of you, already PMed.

[CalmB4tehPwn]

Cool. Once things settle down on my end, I'll PM Epipany

Ahead of you, already PMed.

Well, damn.

What am I even doing here? You want to take this one?

[MOZ]

Cool. Once things settle down on my end, I'll PM Epipany

Ahead of you, already PMed.

Well, damn.

What am I even doing here? You want to take this one?

Nope. We can do this together, I'm just collecting information.

[McWilloughby]

Interested.

[argyakrivos]

Really interested as well! Want at least 2 plates for future filco projects

[AndyCapets]

I'd be really interested in a PCB GB, but if you're doing a plate GB, I'll most likely take one too.

Any news about the cost for making the plate ? I'd be willing to help, unfortunatly where I live, I'd have to drive 70km to find a good machinist..

[kenmai9]

Call me interested.

[jdcarpe]

Phantom PCB is now available for purchase from MechanicalKeyboards.com here

[CalmB4tehPwn]

Well, I guess we're doing a uTKL plate GB now.

Waiting to hear how the plate search goes on MOZ's side.

[Jrwestcoast]

Interested in both a plate and a PCB

[The_Beast]

I could help on plates that is, but it won't be a GB and I wouldn't be able to ship until after Thanksgiving

[AndyCapets]

Phantom PCB is now available for purchase from MechanicalKeyboards.com here

Oh, ok thanks for the info JD, I was looking for one for a long time!

[CalmB4tehPwn]

I could help on plates that is, but it won't be a GB and I wouldn't be able to ship until after Thanksgiving

Would this be more expensive than doing a GB, then? What material and cutting method are we talking about? Any chance to get it anodized if it's alum?

[The_Beast]

I could help on plates that is, but it won't be a GB and I wouldn't be able to ship until after Thanksgiving

Would this be more expensive than doing a GB, then? What material and cutting method are we talking about? Any chance to get it anodized if it's alum?

Yes, I would be charging money to run the buy. I was thinking laser cut stainless but aluminum could be done if a lot of people want it

I don't have a local anodizing place, so I would have to ship them out, anodize them, have them shipped back to me and then shipped out to everyone in the buy. Also, I've never had anything done from them, but I have gotten samples from them. Here are some pictures from another thread where I showed them:
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=39787.msg821179#msg821179

[CalmB4tehPwn]

Any idea how much more expensive we'd be looking at, getting it done in ones and twos as opposed to a GB?

[The_Beast]

Any idea how much more expensive we'd be looking at, getting it done in ones and twos as opposed to a GB?

They wouldn't be bought in ones and twos. It would be a pre-order like the tools I just ran

[jdcarpe]

I think he just means that as a vendor, he will be making a profit of the sales. As opposed to someone who organizes a not for profit community group buy.


Which I have no problem with.


Also, if anyone needs one or more Teensys for their Phantom PCB, I have a GB going for them here.

[MOZ]

Haven't had time to go to the vendors, also waiting on CAD files for the uTKL plate from WFD, if anyone else has them, please PM me.

[CalmB4tehPwn]

Any idea how much more expensive we'd be looking at, getting it done in ones and twos as opposed to a GB?

They wouldn't be bought in ones and twos. It would be a pre-order like the tools I just ran

Oh, when you said you wouldn't be doing a GB, I has assumed you mean it wouldn't be in a group. I understand now, you were defining group buy as not-for-profit, which is not where I draw the distinction.

Very curious what sort of pricing we'd be looking at, especially anodized.
If you're doing this anyways, I'd be happy waiting and letting you take the reigns. I'm not trying to step on your toes, as a vendor, and there's no need for us both to be doing the work and cutting each other's numbers.

Personally, I think vendors should be able to do GBs, because it's still a group buy. As long as the vendor is upfront about what it is, and that they're taking a cut, because they're a respectable vendor, and you're not just throwing your money into the wind. You're paying for that reliability. But hey, I'm just talking aloud here.

[MOZ]

I agree with calm, someone with exowrience want to do it go ahead, I would srill be doing acrylic cases and plates I think.

I want to make acrylic and vinyl sort of the moz thing 

[The_Beast]

Any idea how much more expensive we'd be looking at, getting it done in ones and twos as opposed to a GB?

They wouldn't be bought in ones and twos. It would be a pre-order like the tools I just ran

Oh, when you said you wouldn't be doing a GB, I has assumed you mean it wouldn't be in a group. I understand now, you were defining group buy as not-for-profit, which is not where I draw the distinction.

Very curious what sort of pricing we'd be looking at, especially anodized.
If you're doing this anyways, I'd be happy waiting and letting you take the reigns. I'm not trying to step on your toes, as a vendor, and there's no need for us both to be doing the work and cutting each other's numbers.

Personally, I think vendors should be able to do GBs, because it's still a group buy. As long as the vendor is upfront about what it is, and that they're taking a cut, because they're a respectable vendor, and you're not just throwing your money into the wind. You're paying for that reliability. But hey, I'm just talking aloud here.

I have no interest in doing a GB since I don't want one myself and I just don't have the time to be doing this for free. A profit would be my motivation to get it done. I love GH to death, but I just don't have the time to do stuff for free anymore.


If you do want to do a GB, go ahead, I was just saying that if you can't get everything together, I would be willing to run a buy for them.

[Moosecraft]

I don't have a problem with anyone that runs a gb taking a bit of profit, after all that time invested you could have done something else completely with.
I especially don't  have a problem when it's a vendor or otherwise known salesperson.

[BliTzKiN]

I don't have a problem with anyone that runs a gb taking a bit of profit, after all that time invested you could have done something else completely with.
I especially don't  have a problem when it's a vendor or otherwise known salesperson.

I agree as well, running a GB takes a lot of time. I'm totally fine if you would like to make a profit from running this as well.

[The_Beast]

Alright, unless there are some major objections, I start looking to anodized aluminum plates sometime next week.

If I recall correctly, the anodizing plate could fit 30 60% plates on a rack. So I would assume that would be the same for a TKL sized plate since the tank they have should be deep enough for TKL plates and they charge per rack, not per plate.

[whiskytango]

Beast, do you have a ballpark guess for cost per plate?

[The_Beast]

Beast, do you have a ballpark guess for cost per plate?

If we get 30 plates, that is pretty cheap for the cutter and it's fills a rack on the anodize entirely so that's going to be the cheapest. 60, 90, 120 also work since they fill the entire rack. So say a rack is $30 to anodize. If it's 30 plates, it's going to be $1 a plate. If it's only 1 plate on the rack, it's $30 just for that single plate....

My guess would be mid $30's without shipping. But again, it's just a guess because the anodizing place was just an estimate and I haven't actually run anything through them yet. Would we want to test a plate first?

[CPTBadAss]

Don't know if this has been posted yet but MechanicalKeyboards.com is now carrying Phantom PCBs. Just an FYI.

[whiskytango]

Thanks Beast. That seems to be reasonable.

I am guessing the aluminum is cheaper to source and have cut than stainless? It doesn't sound like the anodizing would add much to the cost if done in bulk like that.

[The_Beast]

Thanks Beast. That seems to be reasonable.

I am guessing the aluminum is cheaper to source and have cut than stainless? It doesn't sound like the anodizing would add much to the cost if done in bulk like that.

Aluminum is cheaper but not by a whole lot. My cutter actually prefers SS for some reason.

[domoaligato]

Fyi the_beast and white fire dragon are listed in my professional services directory sticky thread under the classifieds for plate fabrication.
It also has a ton of other service providers listed for other things as well.

If you are looking for a phantom pcb you can buy them on mechanical keyboards.com now also. You will have to source the remaining parts... but it is a place to start.

[CalmB4tehPwn]

Remaining parts? Is there anything else needed to get a phantom up and running beside a teensy?

PCB, Teensy, Cable, Plate, Switches, Case?

[CalmB4tehPwn]

Thanks Beast. That seems to be reasonable.

I am guessing the aluminum is cheaper to source and have cut than stainless? It doesn't sound like the anodizing would add much to the cost if done in bulk like that.

Aluminum is cheaper but not by a whole lot. My cutter actually prefers SS for some reason.

I'm not surprised. Working with chainmaille, I would take SS over Aluminum any day. SS has a durability that can be held up through the production process, and from what I hear some cutting methods have a tendency to warp alum boards.

[SpAmRaY]

Remaining parts? Is there anything else needed to get a phantom up and running beside a teensy?

PCB, Teensy, Cable, Plate, Switches, Case?

Diodes, Stabilizers, led's, resistors, keycaps

[MOZ]

Stabs be expensive

[domoaligato]

There is a complete list of items on mk's product page.

There is also a phantom parts thread here.

I am at lunch so I can't post links atm.

[domoaligato]

Stabs be expensive

I hope ur joking

[CalmB4tehPwn]

Okay. Well as I personally am not doing LEDs on this board, that leaves me with 100 diodes to purchase. Plus making sure I get a teensy with header pins.

[whiskytango]

Aluminum is cheaper but not by a whole lot. My cutter actually prefers SS for some reason.

I prefer SS as well for a plate, but people in this thread seem to be talking about aluminum. I could go either way. I guess since my phantom plate is SS, aluminum would be something different.