[IC] Flatline Black and Cyan SA profile keyset (on hold see OP)

[HoffmanMyster]

For as much 'MURICA as there is on this forum it's so funny that when **** like this comes up so many of the people who are bummed out are 'muricans, but idk maybe it's just me.

What does this have to do with anything?  I love supporting American businesses, but only if they don't try to screw me around.


Anyway, GG alienating the source of most of the good designs.

[Sifo]

For as much 'MURICA as there is on this forum it's so funny that when **** like this comes up so many of the people who are bummed out are 'muricans, but idk maybe it's just me.

What does this have to do with anything?  I love supporting American businesses, but only if they don't try to screw me around.


Anyway, GG alienating the source of most of the good designs.

It's probably safe to assume there won't be much support to boycott the only manufacturer of SA sets. DCS has already seen a rapid decline in popularity due to GMK, but SA and DSA are still on the table.

[baldgye]

For as much 'MURICA as there is on this forum it's so funny that when **** like this comes up so many of the people who are bummed out are 'muricans, but idk maybe it's just me.

What does this have to do with anything?  I love supporting American businesses, but only if they don't try to screw me around.


Anyway, GG alienating the source of most of the good designs.

It's an american company working in the most american way possible (from an foreigners pov), screwing everyone for the most money as fast as possible, maybe its a misnomer? idk m8

But I didn't alienate anyone who doesn't already dislike me wtf I can barely run a bath let alone a GB

[fublamchu]

For as much 'MURICA as there is on this forum it's so funny that when **** like this comes up so many of the people who are bummed out are 'muricans, but idk maybe it's just me.

What does this have to do with anything?  I love supporting American businesses, but only if they don't try to screw me around.


Anyway, GG alienating the source of most of the good designs.

It's an american company working in the most american way possible (from an foreigners pov), screwing everyone for the most money as fast as possible, maybe its a misnomer? idk m8

But I didn't alienate anyone who doesn't already dislike me wtf I can barely run a bath let alone a GB

TIL only Americans are greedy

[FrostyToast]

Whatever.
I didn't really have anything to put this set on anyway. I just wanted to buy it for support.
I guess it's good for me that I can save a little cash.

[Sifo]

I've updated the OP for anyone who missed out on what happened.

[Ail]

For as much 'MURICA as there is on this forum it's so funny that when **** like this comes up so many of the people who are bummed out are 'muricans, but idk maybe it's just me.

What does this have to do with anything?  I love supporting American businesses, but only if they don't try to screw me around.


Anyway, GG alienating the source of most of the good designs.

It's an american company working in the most american way possible (from an foreigners pov), screwing everyone for the most money as fast as possible, maybe its a misnomer? idk m8

But I didn't alienate anyone who doesn't already dislike me wtf I can barely run a bath let alone a GB

Not to get poltical but this is not uniquely American as much as residents of other countries would love to believe that. Greed is a universal plague.

[nubbinator]

So dusk was $169 for 130 keys split into 4 different kits, they got it even worse.

Official response was

"Sorry I wasn't clear - Massdrop gets a larger discount because of the overall volume that they purchase from us. We use the same price formula and the same set volume discount scale, Massdrop just has earned a larger discount."

So basically all these GB's we've run giving them money all these years earns us a big **** you.

lol

Yeah geekhack hasn't bought any sort of volume.  )

What makes it even worse is that GH is pretty much the reason why SP is able to operate at the volume they are now.    This is a huge middle finger to the community who made it possible for them to even get the attention they do in the enthusiast market.  It's always depressing to see a company decide to crap on those who helped them become what they are.

I guess I should have seen it coming when they tried the PMK model and made a huge markup on their color chits.

[baldgye]

Not to get poltical but this is not uniquely American as much as residents of other countries would love to believe that. Greed is a universal plague.

I never said it wasn't it's just a very american thing, the USA pushes capitalism more than any other nation on the planet (as basic media tv etc (look how much anti-healthcare and anti state support comes out of there)). I'm not replying to anymore bull**** like this in this thread, if you wana have it out with me about this holla in off topic or pm me, or even better have it out in the irc channel, where I'm #chillin. This aint my own personal ****-post thread.

[tangkims]

I do wonder how much the Pulse R2 set is going to be though... it'll probably reach 250+ MOQ for base set. Around 80 USD I'm assuming?

Considering how cheap PulSE round 1 was ($60 per base set?) and how hyped PulSE became after the original buy ended. I assume it could be cheaper since more people want to buy it now?

I do wonder how much the Pulse R2 set is going to be though... it'll probably reach 250+ MOQ for base set. Around 80 USD I'm assuming?

Considering how cheap PulSE round 1 was ($60 per base set?) and how hyped PulSE became after the original buy ended. I assume it could be cheaper since more people want to buy it now?

$60 or cheaper? I'm pretty sure MD won't go below $80 and the excess cost will just be revenue for them.

[zslane]

If GH wants to be in control of pricing, then GH needs to buy its own tooling. Until then you are at the mercy of whomever has the machines to make your widgets. There have been murmurs here and there about a Chinese manufacturer stepping up to the spherical keycap plate, but so far that's all we have...murmurs. Nobody is ready to compete with SP, and so the de facto monopoly reigns supreme.

I think Sifo has the right idea. If you aren't willing or able to pay SP's prices, then you must go a different way. Then again, had you gone with MassDrop, you would have enjoyed MD's volume discount and expansive customer base. But you want to do this all grassroots and stuff, and that leaves you without the leverage to manage prices more effectively.

It's interesting to watch people become so suddenly and keenly aware of just how little control they have over the key elements of this process.

Why do I get the feeling that everyone is under the (mistaken) impression that these tiny custom keycap group buys are SP's core business, and that they somehow owe some sort of debt of gratitude to everyone here?

[tangkims]

So dusk was $169 for 130 keys split into 4 different kits, they got it even worse.

Official response was

"Sorry I wasn't clear - Massdrop gets a larger discount because of the overall volume that they purchase from us. We use the same price formula and the same set volume discount scale, Massdrop just has earned a larger discount."

So basically all these GB's we've run giving them money all these years earns us a big **** you.

I'm pretty sure they just softened the blow by using the word "volume". Pretty sure they meant revenue earned. You can't deny that the group buys bought from GH are much better priced than MD.

The way I see it.. SP cut a deal with MD that earns them higher revenue per set. GH was just a community that was interested in caps and not profit.

[Ail]

Why do I get the feeling that everyone is under the (mistaken) impression that these tiny custom keycap group buys are SP's core business, and that they somehow owe some sort of debt of gratitude to everyone here?

Yep, not that GH et al. haven't helped butter their bread, but I have a feeling the MK community is a drop in the bucket for them.

http://www.solutionsinplastic.com/products.html

[Niomosy]

There's the lesson, everyone.  Community-runs are no longer price-effective as SP would rather give discounts to volume buyers.  MD is such a buyer.  SP doesn't consider the community as a buyer as the community can just buy through MD.

If you want spherical caps without SP, it's going to cost some tooling.  Matt3o was working on getting scans of some IBM beam spring spherical caps for such an endeavor so you may want to see how that's going and see what can be done to help that project along.

[CPTBadAss]

I'm confused. What does owning a mold do for me? If I want to guarantee a good price, I need to own the injection molding machines right? If I just own the mold, then I'm still at the mercy of my supplier correct?

[livingspeedbump]

If this becomes Black & Cyan through GMK. Miami Nights is already pretty close to that since the legends over there include side printing.

I'm not sure if some people are ok with buying the same keys twice. j

jussaying

True!  Hadn't considered Miami Nights as being very close to this.  Good point, LX.

I'd ok, we can do skeletor instead.

More

Show Image

Let's hope SP fixes prices.

This thread is now an IC for whatever nubs just posted.

whoa. Yeah please :thumb:

[nubbinator]

If GH wants to be in control of pricing, then GH needs to buy its own tooling. Until then you are at the mercy of whomever has the machines to make your widgets. There have been murmurs here and there about a Chinese manufacturer stepping up to the spherical keycap plate, but so far that's all we have...murmurs. Nobody is ready to compete with SP, and so the de facto monopoly reigns supreme.

GH did pay for a fair bit of tooling for SP, including working with them and sharing knowledge on correcting tooling and molds.  Maybe GH just needs to tell SP that no one else can use their molds that they funded or provided the knowledge on how to correct.

[hashbaz]

Yep, not that GH et al. haven't helped butter their bread, but I have a feeling the MK community is a drop in the bucket for them.

http://www.solutionsinplastic.com/products.html

I don't think we know that this is true at all. I think the enthusiast market is an important part of their business. This price wall feels like a real kick in the crotch since it was us at GH who created the market and developed the standard kits and concepts that people running buys today take for granted. There's a communal sense of ownership being violated here. We're being priced out of a process that we originated and are getting corralled into accepting middlemen who were originally sold as just a convenience.

[Niomosy]

I'm confused. What does owning a mold do for me? If I want to guarantee a good price, I need to own the injection molding machines right? If I just own the mold, then I'm still at the mercy of my supplier correct?

I'm not simply talking about paying for a mold that SP holds.  I'm talking about the community having the molds physically.  The molds can be submitted for use to a manufacturer other than SP for producing keycaps at pricing more advantageous to the community.

That or the community foots the bill for not only the molds but the injection molding machine(s) to produce the caps.  Though this is a far more pricey idea with even older, used, units going for $10,000 USD or more.

[CPTBadAss]

I'm confused. What does owning a mold do for me? If I want to guarantee a good price, I need to own the injection molding machines right? If I just own the mold, then I'm still at the mercy of my supplier correct?

I'm not simply talking about paying for a mold that SP holds.  I'm talking about the community having the molds physically.  The molds can be submitted for use to a manufacturer other than SP for producing keycaps at pricing more advantageous to the community.

That or the community foots the bill for not only the molds but the injection molding machine(s) to produce the caps.  Though this is a far more pricey idea with even older, used, units going for $10,000 USD or more.

Gotcha, now I'm following you. Agreed.

[Sifo]

Yep, not that GH et al. haven't helped butter their bread, but I have a feeling the MK community is a drop in the bucket for them.

http://www.solutionsinplastic.com/products.html

I don't think we know that this is true at all. I think the enthusiast market is an important part of their business. This price wall feels like a real kick in the crotch since it was us at GH who created the market and developed the standard kits and concepts that people running buys today take for granted. There's a communal sense of ownership being violated here. We're being priced out of a process that we originated and being corralled into accepting middlemen who were originally sold as just a convenience.

ty based moderator

[Homenubbie]

I'm confused. What does owning a mold do for me? If I want to guarantee a good price, I need to own the injection molding machines right? If I just own the mold, then I'm still at the mercy of my supplier correct?

I'm not simply talking about paying for a mold that SP holds.  I'm talking about the community having the molds physically.  The molds can be submitted for use to a manufacturer other than SP for producing keycaps at pricing more advantageous to the community.

That or the community foots the bill for not only the molds but the injection molding machine(s) to produce the caps.  Though this is a far more pricey idea with even older, used, units going for $10,000 USD or more.

We can call it Geek Plastics! 

[Ail]

Yep, not that GH et al. haven't helped butter their bread, but I have a feeling the MK community is a drop in the bucket for them.

http://www.solutionsinplastic.com/products.html

I don't think we know that this is true at all. I think the enthusiast market is an important part of their business. This price wall feels like a real kick in the crotch since it was us at GH who created the market and developed the standard kits and concepts that people running buys today take for granted. There's a communal sense of ownership being violated here. We're being priced out of a process that we originated and are getting corralled into accepting middlemen who were originally sold as just a convenience.

I don't disagree with any of this, and you're right, we don't know that for sure. It just wouldn't surprise me is all.

[LXXXIX]

There's a lot of outrage and concerns being voiced here.

This would be heard/read better over on their official vendor board.

Indeed this a a big eff you. At the end of the day I think they would just plain out like working things out with an official platforms instead of individuals. No matter our history with them. Usually things over on the professional sector are more streamlined. I think they want to take their business model in that direction (even though they have PMK).

[zslane]

Yep, not that GH et al. haven't helped butter their bread, but I have a feeling the MK community is a drop in the bucket for them.

http://www.solutionsinplastic.com/products.html

I don't think we know that this is true at all. I think the enthusiast market is an important part of their business. This price wall feels like a real kick in the crotch since it was us at GH who created the market and developed the standard kits and concepts that people running buys today take for granted. There's a communal sense of ownership being violated here. We're being priced out of a process that we originated and are getting corralled into accepting middlemen who were originally sold as just a convenience.

This is true for the SA family, but doesn't acknowledge the fact that SA production is dwarfed by SP's core business. SA is a profile that would have languished along with discarded spherical profiles like SS were it not for the mech keyboard community giving it life. But it is still a tiny sideline revenue stream that in some ways is almost more hassle than it is worth for them.

[Niomosy]

I'm confused. What does owning a mold do for me? If I want to guarantee a good price, I need to own the injection molding machines right? If I just own the mold, then I'm still at the mercy of my supplier correct?

I'm not simply talking about paying for a mold that SP holds.  I'm talking about the community having the molds physically.  The molds can be submitted for use to a manufacturer other than SP for producing keycaps at pricing more advantageous to the community.

That or the community foots the bill for not only the molds but the injection molding machine(s) to produce the caps.  Though this is a far more pricey idea with even older, used, units going for $10,000 USD or more.

We can call it Geek Plastics! 

I like it.  Though that is a hell of a lot of money to get donated as $10,000 was a year or two ago when I checked on it more for toy making ideas and that was on the low end of pricing.  Then we'd need people that knew how to use them properly and there's mold storage to consider (proper temperature / humidity for the molds).

I may have looked into this a bit out of curiosity...

Matt3o had mentioned in a thread that he had someone in mind for producing PBT, spherical, high profile, dye-subbed caps in a DT thread and was getting scans done of some old IBM beam spring caps to use for that.  If that project can get moving again, it might be able to include doubleshots in PBT or at least ABS to give us an alternative to SP SA caps if people are unhappy with SP pricing. 

I'd love to see some additional producers of high profile spherical caps but there's some definite work and a fair bit of money involved to get there right now.  If the GH community wants to consider going that route, perhaps we need to start running group buys with the goal of profits being put into the community fund for such a thing (though that's going to be more difficult with keycap sets given the increased SP pricing situation).

[hashbaz]

...tiny sideline revenue stream that in some ways is almost more hassle than it is worth for them.

This is the thing I just said I don't think we know for sure. If we were an insignificant part of their business I don't see them bothering to put together something like PMK.

[Sifo]

hey guys stop hating on SP this is all reddit's doing! /s

https://www.reddit.com/r/keyboardcirclejerk/comments/42uf1x/flatline_flatlines_due_to_rmk/

[LXXXIX]

hey guys stop hating on SP this is all reddit's doing! /s

https://www.reddit.com/r/keyboardcirclejerk/comments/42uf1x/flatline_flatlines_due_to_rmk/

Literally anytime GH has an inch of give he says something. But, when we produce so many great ideas and contributions to the community he is silent. It's comical. I'm glad I stayed here.

[Niomosy]

...tiny sideline revenue stream that in some ways is almost more hassle than it is worth for them.

This is the thing I just said I don't think we know for sure. If we were an insignificant part of their business I don't see them bothering to put together something like PMK.

The PMK system may be easier for them.  They determine what to produce from the sets they've already produced.  They put them into production when it suits them.  They control every bit of the process.  We simply put sets on our PMK wishlist and hope for the best.

[skaloola]

those price points look about right to me.  you're offering one giant kit.. for reference check out Round5/6/a/b/c/whateverthe****'s pricing and the its quantities.

wouldn't that make more sense than SP saying "HOLD ONTO YOUR MONEY GUIYZ, WE DONT WANT TO HURT A BRAZILLIAN TEENAGERS FEELINGS!"

[Sifo]

http://www.massdrop.community/mechkeys/troubled-minds/

If we take a look here at a set run recently which should have been after their supposed price increase, Base kit + ISO + nonstandard + numpad = $150.96 at 100 MOQ (which not every kit even met that MOQ, some of the numbers are abysmal)

That includes Massdrop + designer mark ups in pricing, has significantly more keys involved than my all in 1, has kits split up, and even custom legends novelty and dyesub which cost $45 each, AND includes shipping costs to Massdrop.

The quote I was given from SP was the following:

25 sets                   $237.61 per set
50 sets                   $171.32 per set
75 sets                   $149.23 per set
100 sets                 $138.18 per set
150 sets                 $127.13 per set
200 sets                 $121.61 per set
250 sets                 $118.29 per set

The set I'm quoting is 138 keys with 2 space bars and 2 blanks, no custom legends, and does not include ANY additional fees, not even shipping to our distributor and then shipping to you guys.

Yet both of our sets are $1/key at 100 MOQ

Hm..........

So dusk was $169 for 130 keys split into 4 different kits, they got it even worse.

Official response was

"Sorry I wasn't clear - Massdrop gets a larger discount because of the overall volume that they purchase from us. We use the same price formula and the same set volume discount scale, Massdrop just has earned a larger discount."

So basically all these GB's we've run giving them money all these years earns us a big **** you.

those price points look about right to me.  you're offering one giant kit.. for reference check out Round5/6/a/b/c/whateverthe****'s pricing and the its quantities.

wouldn't that make more sense than SP saying "HOLD ONTO YOUR MONEY GUIYZ, WE DONT WANT TO HURT A BRAZILLIAN TEENAGERS FEELINGS!"

I have the round 6 pricing and have accounted for this. You realize splitting up to to different kits makes it cost more right? Hack'd by Geeks was $110~ for 150 keys, and they explicitly said they will not be offering that pricing anymore which is fine. Did you look at the Troubled Minds set? Or read the post at all which explains it?

[hashbaz]

The PMK system may be easier for them.  They determine what to produce from the sets they've already produced.  They put them into production when it suits them.  They control every bit of the process.  We simply put sets on our PMK wishlist and hope for the best.

Yeah I know how it works.

What I'm saying is that they wouldn't have bothered creating the PMK system if the enthusiast community wasn't a worthwhile part of their business.

[HoffmanMyster]

Anyway, GG alienating the source of most of the good designs.

But I didn't alienate anyone who doesn't already dislike me wtf I can barely run a bath let alone a GB

Apologies for taking this off topic again, but I just wanted to clarify that I was talking about SP here, not you baldgye.


Anyway, the real shocker here is not that a corporation with capital holds all the cards against our community (because duh), but that they would turn their back on the very community that grew with them over the last however many years.  That just plain sucks.

And yeah, they still have all the cards after I just said that.  I didn't change anything.  But now I can rest easy knowing that my wallet will be a little better off not having to chase any SA sets from now on. 

Goodbye SP, it was fun! 

[Michael]

Anyway, GG alienating the source of most of the good designs.

But I didn't alienate anyone who doesn't already dislike me wtf I can barely run a bath let alone a GB

Apologies for taking this off topic again, but I just wanted to clarify that I was talking about SP here, not you baldgye.


Anyway, the real shocker here is not that a corporation with capital holds all the cards against our community (because duh), but that they would turn their back on the very community that grew with them over the last however many years.  That just plain sucks.

And yeah, they still have all the cards after I just said that.  I didn't change anything.  But now I can rest easy knowing that my wallet will be a little better off not having to chase any SA sets from now on. 

Goodbye SP, it was fun! 

So much this. SP and PMK would be jack without GH/rmk/DT/etc. How much did this community alone invest in legends with SP?

[zslane]

The PMK system may be easier for them.  They determine what to produce from the sets they've already produced.  They put them into production when it suits them.  They control every bit of the process.  We simply put sets on our PMK wishlist and hope for the best.

Yeah I know how it works.

What I'm saying is that they wouldn't have bothered creating the PMK system if the enthusiast community wasn't a worthwhile part of their business.

PMK feels more like an experiment in creating a webstore-like experience for custom keycaps than an important vehicle for a critical revenue stream. And if the experiment doesn't pan out (to SP's satisfaction), don't be too surprised to see it just disappear. If they were really serious about PMK they wouldn't offer "special discounts" to MassDrop, and all that business would just funnel straight to them without the middle man.

[HoffmanMyster]

The PMK system may be easier for them.  They determine what to produce from the sets they've already produced.  They put them into production when it suits them.  They control every bit of the process.  We simply put sets on our PMK wishlist and hope for the best.

Yeah I know how it works.

What I'm saying is that they wouldn't have bothered creating the PMK system if the enthusiast community wasn't a worthwhile part of their business.

PMK feels more like an experiment in creating a webstore-like experience for custom keycaps than an important vehicle for a critical revenue stream. And if the experiment doesn't pan out (to SP's satisfaction), don't be too surprised to see it just disappear. If they were really serious about PMK they wouldn't offer "special discounts" to MassDrop, and all that business would just funnel straight to them without the middle man.

I don't know if you were around when PMK was still active (is it back yet?), but it was incredibly clunky and not what I would call a "streamlined experience".  I think they're leaning pretty heavily on MD for the web development side of things and backend support.  But that's just my theory.

[whmeltonjr]

Just got caught up on the last few pages. What a bummer. There were so many sets coming out this year that I wanted, but after the giant fack you from SP, I'll be skipping out. It's a shame to see a company turn its back on the very people that helped turn it in to what it is today.

[Ail]

The PMK system may be easier for them.  They determine what to produce from the sets they've already produced.  They put them into production when it suits them.  They control every bit of the process.  We simply put sets on our PMK wishlist and hope for the best.

Yeah I know how it works.

What I'm saying is that they wouldn't have bothered creating the PMK system if the enthusiast community wasn't a worthwhile part of their business.

PMK feels more like an experiment in creating a webstore-like experience for custom keycaps than an important vehicle for a critical revenue stream. And if the experiment doesn't pan out (to SP's satisfaction), don't be too surprised to see it just disappear. If they were really serious about PMK they wouldn't offer "special discounts" to MassDrop, and all that business would just funnel straight to them without the middle man.

I don't know if you were around when PMK was still active (is it back yet?), but it was incredibly clunky and not what I would call a "streamlined experience".  I think they're leaning pretty heavily on MD for the web development side of things and backend support.  But that's just my theory.

It's better than the previous iteration, but still not the most intuitive experience. It's nice as a way to have access to key sets without waiting for a group buy, but seems to definitely be back burnered in favor of MD and other large group buys.

[Ail]

Just got caught up on the last few pages. What a bummer. There were so many sets coming out this year that I wanted, but after the giant fack you from SP, I'll be skipping out. It's a shame to see a company turn its back on the very people that helped turn it in to what it is today.

Same. I was in for my first set of SA sphericals, but I backed out and I'm just going to wait and see what happens. The good news is I am $160 richer than I was a few hours ago.

[Sifo]

You guys are free to get pulse it's practically the same thing

I am discussing with people as to what to do and see if we can make something happen, but that won't be until pulse r2 is done anyway

[zslane]

Anyway, GG alienating the source of most of the good designs.

But I didn't alienate anyone who doesn't already dislike me wtf I can barely run a bath let alone a GB

Apologies for taking this off topic again, but I just wanted to clarify that I was talking about SP here, not you baldgye.


Anyway, the real shocker here is not that a corporation with capital holds all the cards against our community (because duh), but that they would turn their back on the very community that grew with them over the last however many years.  That just plain sucks.

And yeah, they still have all the cards after I just said that.  I didn't change anything.  But now I can rest easy knowing that my wallet will be a little better off not having to chase any SA sets from now on. 

Goodbye SP, it was fun! 

So much this. SP and PMK would be jack without GH/rmk/DT/etc. How much did this community alone invest in legends with SP?

Let's be honest here. Nobody "invested" in, for instance, the Fallout novelty legends to help SP's bottom line (or their future as a business enterprise). They did so in order to have those keycaps adorn their keyboards, and no other reason.

We are all customers, not investors. Patting ourselves on the back--and expecting special treatment--for simply playing our role in an ordinary exchange of commerce strikes me as rather silly.

[hashbaz]

PMK feels more like an experiment in creating a webstore-like experience for custom keycaps than an important vehicle for a critical revenue stream. And if the experiment doesn't pan out (to SP's satisfaction), don't be too surprised to see it just disappear. If they were really serious about PMK they wouldn't offer "special discounts" to MassDrop, and all that business would just funnel straight to them without the middle man.

Literally all I'm saying is that they cared enough to create PMK, and that is evidence that they care about us as a market, i.e., we are not a worthless drop in their gigantic corporate bucket.

Let's be honest here. Nobody "invested" in, for instance, the Fallout novelty legends to help SP's bottom line (or their future as a business enterprise). They did so in order to have those keycaps adorn their keyboards, and no other reason.

We are all customers, not investors. Patting ourselves on the back--and expecting special treatment--for simply playing our role in an ordinary exchange of commerce strikes me as rather silly.

I personally have had years of interactions with SP and Melissa in particular. It is in fact personal because I care about this hobby and SP is actually a small enough endeavor (they only have a few employees) that it hasn't usually felt like interacting with Plastico Megacorp. So take your snide observations about how silly and predictable we all are and **** off.

[Michael]

Anyway, GG alienating the source of most of the good designs.

But I didn't alienate anyone who doesn't already dislike me wtf I can barely run a bath let alone a GB

Apologies for taking this off topic again, but I just wanted to clarify that I was talking about SP here, not you baldgye.


Anyway, the real shocker here is not that a corporation with capital holds all the cards against our community (because duh), but that they would turn their back on the very community that grew with them over the last however many years.  That just plain sucks.

And yeah, they still have all the cards after I just said that.  I didn't change anything.  But now I can rest easy knowing that my wallet will be a little better off not having to chase any SA sets from now on. 

Goodbye SP, it was fun! 

So much this. SP and PMK would be jack without GH/rmk/DT/etc. How much did this community alone invest in legends with SP?

Let's be honest here. Nobody "invested" in, for instance, the Fallout novelty legends to help SP's bottom line (or their future as a business enterprise). They did so in order to have those keycaps adorn their keyboards, and no other reason.

We are all customers, not investors. Patting ourselves on the back--and expecting special treatment--for simply playing our role in an ordinary exchange of commerce strikes me as rather silly.

Nobody is patting themselves on the back, it's just a simple matter of perspective. If a group of customers contributes time and money into helping a company provide more
options and better sets to ALL of it's customers, then yes, I do believe a fair amount of consideration should be given to that group when it comes to not screwing them over
on price points just because they don't dump out mass amounts of MEH sets every month.

[Niomosy]

The PMK system may be easier for them.  They determine what to produce from the sets they've already produced.  They put them into production when it suits them.  They control every bit of the process.  We simply put sets on our PMK wishlist and hope for the best.

Yeah I know how it works.

What I'm saying is that they wouldn't have bothered creating the PMK system if the enthusiast community wasn't a worthwhile part of their business.

PMK feels more like an experiment in creating a webstore-like experience for custom keycaps than an important vehicle for a critical revenue stream. And if the experiment doesn't pan out (to SP's satisfaction), don't be too surprised to see it just disappear. If they were really serious about PMK they wouldn't offer "special discounts" to MassDrop, and all that business would just funnel straight to them without the middle man.

I don't know if you were around when PMK was still active (is it back yet?), but it was incredibly clunky and not what I would call a "streamlined experience".  I think they're leaning pretty heavily on MD for the web development side of things and backend support.  But that's just my theory.

It's better than the previous iteration, but still not the most intuitive experience. It's nice as a way to have access to key sets without waiting for a group buy, but seems to definitely be back burnered in favor of MD and other large group buys.

SA profile production is at capacity right now.  Even then, they do seem to have stuff lined up for PMK as mentioned in the SP forum.  While they're definitely not putting their focus on PMK, they're also not going to turn down lots of orders coming in through MassDrop and 7bit.

I suspect they will increase focus in PMK once the current onslaught of SA sets goes through.  The thing there is, there are more in various IC stages right now so it's looking as if SA production will be very busy through 2016 if a few more of these sets go through to become successful group buys.

[zslane]

I don't think of the community as silly or predictable. I do think it perhaps takes itself a bit too seriously, or misunderstands its role in the ongoing functioning of a business enterprise such as SP.

If I'm not mistaken, it is possible to submit legend designs to SP and pay for the exclusive rights to keycaps manufactured with those legends. I imagine the price for proprietary legend designs is steep. I also imagine that not a single community design ever paid for that, which means that despite feeling like owners of the design, you really aren't. You didn't pay for that, and as a consequence anyone is theoretically "free" to use those legends even though they didn't design them. In a sense, you didn't "invest" in SP's legend inventory, you merely failed to lock up proprietary rights to your own designs.

Is that fair? That's an excellent question, and one which designers like Oobly have been exploring with considerable diligence lately. It certainly feels unfair, but as far as I can tell everyone who ever had a design produced signed on the proverbial dotted line and accepted those terms.

[UsualSuspectXXX]

Ahh man. This took a turn for the worst but I'd be interested in GMK. Just not DCS or DSA.

[nubbinator]

zslane, instead of arguing with you, I think you really need to go back and re-examine the relationship SP has had with the community and what the community has done for SP.  Two key areas are the Cherry legend project and SA profile.  Without GH and DT, SA would not exist in the form it is today.

History matters.  Community and relationships matter.  The community is upset because that history and those relationships feel like they're being completely discarded in a giant **** you fashion.

[hashbaz]

I don't think of the community as silly or predictable. I do think it perhaps takes itself a bit too seriously, or misunderstands its role in the ongoing functioning of a business enterprise such as SP.

Your posts are coming across (to me at least) as if you do.

If I'm not mistaken, it is possible to submit legend designs to SP and pay for the exclusive rights to keycaps manufactured with those legends. I imagine the price for proprietary legend designs is steep. I also imagine that not a single community design ever paid for that, which means that despite feeling like owners of the design, you really aren't. You didn't pay for that, and as a consequence anyone is theoretically "free" to use those legends even though they didn't design them. In a sense, you didn't "invest" in SP's legend inventory, you merely failed to lock up proprietary rights to your own designs.

I'm not sure I'm following 100%, but there are lots of proprietary molds created and paid for by the community here. That is the norm for things like novelty keycaps that are shipped with larger sets. There have been entire keysets created from scratch which do in fact require the permission of the rights holder to use (talking about actual legends here, not colorways). The Sanctuary and Cherry Replica sets are the two I'm aware of. We've also spearheaded efforts to improve the SA profile's right shift key and create a center-stemmed stepped Caps Lock.

[zslane]

zslane, instead of arguing with you, I think you really need to go back and re-examine the relationship SP has had with the community and what the community has done for SP.  Two key areas are the Cherry legend project and SA profile.  Without GH and DT, SA would not exist in the form it is today..

I agree completely. I don't think there's any doubt that GH and DT played a vital role in making the SA profile what it is today.

But I also think there is a misperception as to how important the SA profile (and our little community group buys) is to SP's overall business. I am convinced that the SA profile is way more important to us than it is to SP, on the whole. The revamp of PMK is, IMO, a bit of a red herring, at least in the sense that it is not really a way to gauge how community designs fit into the tapestry of SP's overall business.

If folks want to feel hurt because SP isn't treating them like business partners, that's their perogative. It just seems to me that boycotting the SA profile hurts us more than it hurts SP.