What keyboard do I want? I'm about a decade behind.

[N8N]

Well hello there all...  It's been a few years.  Really probably close to 10.  Things have changed, a lot, but in a good way.

I fell into the trap of nerding out over keyboards back then because I just couldn't find what I wanted off the shelf.  I'm a heavy handed typist so I wanted something that would not thockily bottom out all the time, annoying my coworkers and also causing me at the time to start developing what felt like some repetitive motion issues in my hands.  I ended up with a full size Filco that I swapped Cherry Clear stems and springs into (back then you could find Cherry POS boards with clears relatively cheaply) and I threw on a set of Imsto dye subs (because I have very hard fingernails, I wiped out a set of Cherry doubleshots in about a year.)  I'm actually typing this message on that board now, and it's really just fine.

Because of events of the last year, I've been working a lot from home.  Now, the one thing that all my non-Filco good keyboards have in common is that they're vintage, take up more desk space, and also varying degrees of loud.  (think Model M, Model F, or SGI Granite)  I figured I'd check back in and see what was available these days, and wow, things have changed.  There's some cool stuff going on that just wasn't happening 10 years ago.  The whole idea of a "hotswap" keyboard is new, and definitely cool.

So, I bought myself a Keychron C2 to play with but I don't think that's exactly what I want.  I would like to use PBT keycaps and the replacement of "Scroll Lock" and "Pause/Break" with special keys kind of precludes using a lot of aftermarket sets.  I guess what I really wanted was a GMMK but the full size isn't available unless I order the fully loaded one from Amazon, or pay a premium to get the barebones from Amazon instead of ordering from Glorious.

What I want:  A bog standard layout, full size*, including F-keys.  PBT keycaps or something equally durable.  Heavy tactile switches, but quiet.

*after using my Model F for a while, I realized that I couldn't use it for "real work" because of the non-standard F-key layout.  However, the lack of the nav cluster wasn't as bad as I thought it'd be.  I did have to look at the keycaps to navigate around, but it wasn't as big a showstopper as the lack of the across-the-top F-key row (I use F-keys a LOT for AutoCAD, this is non negotiable.)  So I'd be open to using an 1800 style board, although it'd likely take a while to get used to using the nav layer on the numpad.  I have seen exactly one keyboard that addresses this, but it'd preclude using aftermarket keycaps, and was already discontinued by the time I discovered it existed - the Cooler Master Masterkeys Pro M.  Basically the nav layer on the numpad is the traditional nav cluster, not the traditional IBM Model M numpad nav layer.  A compact layout would be good though, as I have a standing desk at work with a keyboard tray, and the tray is just barely wide enough to hold my Filco and leave enough room to move a mouse around.

so again, it looks like what I really want is a GMMK full size barebones or equivalent hotswappable board, with switches and keycaps to taste.  Not really interested in a TKL or compact, I use the numpad enough that I really want either a full size or maybe a 1800.

Question 1: are there any other good board options out there?  Keychron K4, maybe, but it still has the "backlight" key and I would need to replace the keycaps because the nav layer isn't printed on the numpad.  I actually really don't care that much about the backlight; I've been using a Filco for 10 years and haven't felt like I'm missing anything, but it is kind of cool looking.

Question 2: what switches to consider, other than more clears?  Glorious Pandas look interesting as they are even stiffer.  How about Cherry MX Grey?  Are those available in whole keyboard quantities?  Kailh Box burnt orange?  The similar versions of the Speed or Pro?  Anything else to consider?  The Gateron Browns in the C2 feel nice, but I really do want something stiffer and more tactile, if both are possible.

Questions 3: Where to go for awesome vintage styled keycaps (but PBT)?  I guess shine through would be a bonus as it looks like I'll likely end up with a backlit board even though that's not on my "must have" list.

Thanks for reading and any opinions!

[Arch4Life]

Hi there and welcome back my friend.

For switches: Holy panda is good with strong tactile feedback but pretty loud, I have a colleague using it (he's a heavy typist too), the sound is loud but in a good way, you may like it. I would recommend the Zilents from Zeal for a more muted tactile in case you need it. Also Boba U4 and U4T are worth a try.

For Kit: I would recommend the Melody 96 from YMDK for a layout somewhat full size but still compact, it can have all kind of light/led if you really want to set it up and always available for purchase. Last thing is it comes with a set hotswap layout options, so you can try several switch types before you settle in with a good reliable one.

For keycaps: there are several good PBT set on pimpmykeyboard.com

Good luck and have fun.



Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[N8N]

You just proved I have a lot of research to do.  I haven't heard of ANY of those switches...  Last time I paid attention your options were various flavors of Cherry MX, Alps, and the occasional weirdo who liked Topres.  I think Gateron switches were around but MX was "the" switch.

As for the sound, it's not so much me but it's my coworkers.  Everyone's more or less OK with the clears, and I am too, just the availability (ish) of hotswappable boards means that experimenting with different key switches today is much easier than it was before and I haven't bought a new board in ages...

Edit: it appears that the heaviest Zilents and Boba U4s are sold out, much like the GMMK full size...  I'm striking out all over the place aren't I?

[Findecanor]

A lot more switches have come out in only the past few years... and it is not that easy to keep track of them.

The original Zealio ("V1") were "Ergo Clears", i.e. like clones of MX Clears but with lighter springs.
Then Zeal changed it, and the only new ones available have the bump earlier in the key travel.
There have been damped versions ("Zilents") of both the V1 and V2.

The "Holy Panda" too has the bump early in the key travel. Holy Pandas were originally hybrids that people made themselves using a stem from a Halo switch and there were a few different housings, but Drop's and GMMK's are new manufacture. (I'm not sure who makes them...)

The Durock/JWK T1 is another Ergo Clear, and has been available in multiple colours and brands, the most known being "Koala". There is a version of it with internal dampers called Tacit, available only from Keebwerk.

[Leslieann]

Edit: it appears that the heaviest Zilents and Boba U4s are sold out, much like the GMMK full size...  I'm striking out all over the place aren't I?

It's not just you, there are mass shortages all over and has been for a while now, it's both a great time and a terrible time in tech, more great choices than ever and at better prices than ever but you can't buy any of it because it's sold out.

Word of warning, when the next stimulus checks start hitting banks expect a run on anything that is still in stock, it's happened each time so far and inventory is already worse than ever. Those of you watching a waiting on a graphics card, be afraid, be very afraid.

[N8N]

You are right about that!  I pulled the trigger fast on the Keychron when it was available because any hotswap C2 has been out of stock as long as I've been looking.  Had I not been in such a hurry, I might have noticed the different keys.  (I'm not saying it's not a great product mind you)

Now I really want a GMMK and I'm wondering if it's just worth it to pay the premium to get the loaded one off Amazon even though I'm not going to use either the brown switches or the keycaps (and the worst part is I already have browns on the Keychron...)  I guess I could drop them a line and see when they will have the full size boards available again.

[N8N]

So I got an almost immediate reply from Glorious, the GMMK should be in stock "early to mid April" so that's not too bad.

that opens up a whole world of switches and keycaps though.  I might end up buying a couple different ones to play with, which I guess is the whole point of a hotswap board.

[Leslieann]

So I got an almost immediate reply from Glorious, the GMMK should be in stock "early to mid April" so that's not too bad.

that opens up a whole world of switches and keycaps though.  I might end up buying a couple different ones to play with, which I guess is the whole point of a hotswap board.

Keep in mind they have a limited lifespan and if pushed in wrong, which is REALLY, REALLY easy to do, you can tear the hotswap right off the PCB (this causes massive trauma to the pcb). Not sure about GMMK and others, but Novelkeys recommends taking the keyboard apart to insert switches while holding the socket to the PCB. You will also want to make certain the pins are perfectly straight.

Hot swap is nice but be gentle with it and don't expect it to last forever, if you consider them disposable it makes it a lot easier to judge how much you should be willing to spend on them.

[Maledicted]

So I got an almost immediate reply from Glorious, the GMMK should be in stock "early to mid April" so that's not too bad.

that opens up a whole world of switches and keycaps though.  I might end up buying a couple different ones to play with, which I guess is the whole point of a hotswap board.

Keep in mind they have a limited lifespan and if pushed in wrong, which is REALLY, REALLY easy to do, you can tear the hotswap right off the PCB (this causes massive trauma to the pcb). Not sure about GMMK and others, but Novelkeys recommends taking the keyboard apart to insert switches while holding the socket to the PCB. You will also want to make certain the pins are perfectly straight.

Hot swap is nice but be gentle with it and don't expect it to last forever, if you consider them disposable it makes it a lot easier to judge how much you should be willing to spend on them.

Now that I actually own a hotswap board, I should try taking the thing apart and reinforcing every single hotswap socket with some high temperature hot glue to increase the surface area of its contact with the PCB. I already knew that this stuff is practically as universally utilitarian/useful as duct tape (in liquid form) but I have even used the stuff to literally replace every single failed cheap plastic wall meant to hold threaded brass inserts (that hold a laptop hinge together) that's blown out. There are Chromebooks here that have had hinges held together by nothing more than high temperature hot glue for years now, and it has held up to abuse by the same user far better than the original design ... not that Dell's consumer-grade (I include their "education" crap in that category) laptops are known for their stellar engineering.

[funkmon]

You just proved I have a lot of research to do.  I haven't heard of ANY of those switches...  Last time I paid attention your options were various flavors of Cherry MX, Alps, and the occasional weirdo who liked Topres.  I think Gateron switches were around but MX was "the" switch.

As for the sound, it's not so much me but it's my coworkers.  Everyone's more or less OK with the clears, and I am too, just the availability (ish) of hotswappable boards means that experimenting with different key switches today is much easier than it was before and I haven't bought a new board in ages...

Edit: it appears that the heaviest Zilents and Boba U4s are sold out, much like the GMMK full size...  I'm striking out all over the place aren't I?

You're basically still correct. The only major developments in switches are the optical ones, the hall effect ones, and the Kailh clickbar ones. Almost all the others are just variations on the MX design.

[hvontres]

So I got an almost immediate reply from Glorious, the GMMK should be in stock "early to mid April" so that's not too bad.

that opens up a whole world of switches and keycaps though.  I might end up buying a couple different ones to play with, which I guess is the whole point of a hotswap board.

Keep in mind they have a limited lifespan and if pushed in wrong, which is REALLY, REALLY easy to do, you can tear the hotswap right off the PCB (this causes massive trauma to the pcb). Not sure about GMMK and others, but Novelkeys recommends taking the keyboard apart to insert switches while holding the socket to the PCB. You will also want to make certain the pins are perfectly straight.

Hot swap is nice but be gentle with it and don't expect it to last forever, if you consider them disposable it makes it a lot easier to judge how much you should be willing to spend on them.

Now that I actually own a hotswap board, I should try taking the thing apart and reinforcing every single hotswap socket with some high temperature hot glue to increase the surface area of its contact with the PCB. I already knew that this stuff is practically as universally utilitarian/useful as duct tape (in liquid form) but I have even used the stuff to literally replace every single failed cheap plastic wall meant to hold threaded brass inserts (that hold a laptop hinge together) that's blown out. There are Chromebooks here that have had hinges held together by nothing more than high temperature hot glue for years now, and it has held up to abuse by the same user far better than the original design ... not that Dell's consumer-grade (I include their "education" crap in that category) laptops are known for their stellar engineering.

Personally I would probably use some good two part epoxy. Less chance to melt something off with a hot glue gun plus it's pretty close to what the PCB is made from as well. But I agree, from the number of pictures I see here and on Reddit, the Kahlih hotswap socket design has some room for improvement. It is really too bad they didn't add some kind of clip that goes to the top of the pcb. But I figure that would just make it too difficult to do the smt assembly.

[hvontres]

As far as "vintage" pbt caps go, I really like my /dev/tty MT3 caps on my Test mule that I built out of a RedDraggon K556:


(Ring is a size 14+)

As far as a compact layout wit a full F row goes, I have been using one of these as my daily driver for a couple of months now:

It is based on an Austin layout with an extra row of F-keys. At this point, the only change I am thinking of making is swapping the home-end and pgup-pgdown keys.
There is a link to the IC thread down in my signature if you are interested. I believe there are currently some PCB kits available (print your own housing) and a full aluminum version should come later this year.

[bas72]

Edit: it appears that the heaviest Zilents and Boba U4s are sold out, much like the GMMK full size...  I'm striking out all over the place aren't I?

Hey N8N,

I don know where you live, but I thought you might want to know that Keygem (located in Germany) seems to have the heavy Zilents in stock.

https://keygem.store/collections/zeal/products/zilents-v2-silent-tactile-78g-10-pcs

Have a great day!

[Leslieann]

Personally I would probably use some good two part epoxy. Less chance to melt something off with a hot glue gun plus it's pretty close to what the PCB is made from as well.

If your hot glue gun can melt solder you might want to return it because it's defective.

Epoxy can actually get quite hot while curing, but again, nowhere near enough to melt lead solder much less modern RHOS solder.

[N8N]

You just proved I have a lot of research to do.  I haven't heard of ANY of those switches...  Last time I paid attention your options were various flavors of Cherry MX, Alps, and the occasional weirdo who liked Topres.  I think Gateron switches were around but MX was "the" switch.

As for the sound, it's not so much me but it's my coworkers.  Everyone's more or less OK with the clears, and I am too, just the availability (ish) of hotswappable boards means that experimenting with different key switches today is much easier than it was before and I haven't bought a new board in ages...

Edit: it appears that the heaviest Zilents and Boba U4s are sold out, much like the GMMK full size...  I'm striking out all over the place aren't I?

You're basically still correct. The only major developments in switches are the optical ones, the hall effect ones, and the Kailh clickbar ones. Almost all the others are just variations on the MX design.

Just to be perverse, I feel obligated to point out that the venerable Space Cadet had Honeywell (I think?) Hall effect switches.

I would, however, be very interested in knowing more about modern Hall effect switches...

[Maledicted]

You just proved I have a lot of research to do.  I haven't heard of ANY of those switches...  Last time I paid attention your options were various flavors of Cherry MX, Alps, and the occasional weirdo who liked Topres.  I think Gateron switches were around but MX was "the" switch.

As for the sound, it's not so much me but it's my coworkers.  Everyone's more or less OK with the clears, and I am too, just the availability (ish) of hotswappable boards means that experimenting with different key switches today is much easier than it was before and I haven't bought a new board in ages...

Edit: it appears that the heaviest Zilents and Boba U4s are sold out, much like the GMMK full size...  I'm striking out all over the place aren't I?

You're basically still correct. The only major developments in switches are the optical ones, the hall effect ones, and the Kailh clickbar ones. Almost all the others are just variations on the MX design.

Just to be perverse, I feel obligated to point out that the venerable Space Cadet had Honeywell (I think?) Hall effect switches.

I would, however, be very interested in knowing more about modern Hall effect switches...

The Silo switches are the ones I'm most interested in, because of the combination of contactless hot swap, adjustable actuation, and the choice of mechanisms ... if they'll ever actually all come out.

[N8N]

As far as "vintage" pbt caps go, I really like my /dev/tty MT3 caps on my Test mule that I built out of a RedDraggon K556:

As far as a compact layout wit a full F row goes, I have been using one of these as my daily driver for a couple of months now:

It is based on an Austin layout with an extra row of F-keys. At this point, the only change I am thinking of making is swapping the home-end and pgup-pgdown keys.
There is a link to the IC thread down in my signature if you are interested. I believe there are currently some PCB kits available (print your own housing) and a full aluminum version should come later this year.

yeah I think you are getting the vibe I'm going for.

I think I am likely going to grab a full size GMMK when they become available again, question is going to be just what switches am I going to try first and what keycaps am I going to get.  I like yours, but search reveals that they're $100ish a set?

[funkmon]

Ayup. That's the going rate for the cool keycaps. The profiles are neato. Try mechmarket and get some of the less "desirable" ones so you can **** around with the key profiles. That's a huge difference now as compared to before, when everything had a very similar profile.

[N8N]

So I'm looking more, and I love the spherical keycaps and the Selectric-esque font of that /dev/tty set.  HOWEVER in all my years of using a keyboard I have never managed to memorize the nav layer of the numpad, and I can't see any caps like that with the nav stuff printed on the numpad numbers.  Does such a beastie exist?

so my dream keycap set would be

Spherical
ANSI 104, preferably with extra keys in case I go to a 1800 board or other common space saver layout
PBT
Has nav layer functions printed on numpad keys

does this exist?  I guess shine through would be a bonus but I feel like I'm already pushing it so far.

[Meyvn]

Honestly, because of the inexplicable utter dominance of TKL and 60%, there just are so few customizable options for full size keyboards it isn't even funny.

You already know about the GMMK. I might also look at the Matias Quiet Pro. That gets you a wonderfully tactile fullsize board that's far quieter than any of the modern Cherry MX variants. It's ugly, but at least it's black. You won't find a ton of keycap options, but there are a few now. TaiHao started offering a Miami set recently, for example. And Matias themselves keep promising new PBT dyesub sets any day now.

Beyond that, I'd alao look at the Plum NiZ fullsize models. I have one of their 84 key variants and they're tactile, have a wonderful dampened "raindrops" sound, and because they're MX mount, you can pretty much buy any keycap set you like.

As far as separate ly purchased switches for GMMK, I'd look at Box Royal and Hako Clear. If you can live with the click noise, though, IMO nothing beats Box Jade.

[Mistah]

You say you're firm on full size keyboards... How do you feel about a 75% or TKL? You can easily layer a numpad in, and with the programmability options today, people can go down to a 40% and have full coverage and tons of more options. Full sized keyboards are getting more sparse, because many of the people that get really invested in the hobby dive deep and find they don't need/want the extra keys, or want the extra mouse space. I went from a full size -> 60% -> 40%, and I personally can't imagine myself using anything over 60% anymore (primarily because I would rather lube fewer switches, and I don't want to move my hands to use arrows).

I would recommend you get in on the recent budget hotswap keyboard craze that's been going on. GMMK Pro, NK65/NK87, KBDLite boards, Bauer Lite, Ikki68, Rama Kara, etc. There is actually a lot of price competition at that range, so you will get a lot of bang for your buck. As far as switches, I would look into the JWK (Durock, Everglide, etc) ones if you want a really smooth experience. For JWK tactiles, there is the T1 and the "medium tactile" switch, which is modeled after those MX clears.

[N8N]

You say you're firm on full size keyboards... How do you feel about a 75% or TKL? You can easily layer a numpad in, and with the programmability options today, people can go down to a 40% and have full coverage and tons of more options. Full sized keyboards are getting more sparse, because many of the people that get really invested in the hobby dive deep and find they don't need/want the extra keys, or want the extra mouse space. I went from a full size -> 60% -> 40%, and I personally can't imagine myself using anything over 60% anymore (primarily because I would rather lube fewer switches, and I don't want to move my hands to use arrows).

I would recommend you get in on the recent budget hotswap keyboard craze that's been going on. GMMK Pro, NK65/NK87, KBDLite boards, Bauer Lite, Ikki68, Rama Kara, etc. There is actually a lot of price competition at that range, so you will get a lot of bang for your buck. As far as switches, I would look into the JWK (Durock, Everglide, etc) ones if you want a really smooth experience. For JWK tactiles, there is the T1 and the "medium tactile" switch, which is modeled after those MX clears.

Thing is, I spend all day every day behind a keyboard at work, and I really do use all of the numpad, the nav cluster, and the F-keys (the latter because I do a lot of work in AutoCAD)

Especially the F-keys, asking me to do without those would literally be asking me to retrain my hands from 20+ years of muscle memory.  At least AutoDesk hasn't changed the basic F-key toggles in that time.

I have considered an 1800 style layout and would be willing to give it a try.  I think retraining myself to use the numpad nav layer probably makes the most sense about moving to a smaller format, and would be the least detrimental to my work.  I'd consider a TKL behind that; there's lots of stuff I do that requires authentication with one or another 8 digit PIN and again, those are muscle memory on the numpad.  I *could* deal with regular number keys, I guess, but I'd be slowed down for a while until I caught up.  I less often work in spreadsheets where I use the numpad as well, that's less of a big deal as me doing manual data entry either means we have a new product (rarely happens) or something has gone horribly, horribly wrong.

[Mistah]

You say you're firm on full size keyboards... How do you feel about a 75% or TKL? You can easily layer a numpad in, and with the programmability options today, people can go down to a 40% and have full coverage and tons of more options. Full sized keyboards are getting more sparse, because many of the people that get really invested in the hobby dive deep and find they don't need/want the extra keys, or want the extra mouse space. I went from a full size -> 60% -> 40%, and I personally can't imagine myself using anything over 60% anymore (primarily because I would rather lube fewer switches, and I don't want to move my hands to use arrows).

I would recommend you get in on the recent budget hotswap keyboard craze that's been going on. GMMK Pro, NK65/NK87, KBDLite boards, Bauer Lite, Ikki68, Rama Kara, etc. There is actually a lot of price competition at that range, so you will get a lot of bang for your buck. As far as switches, I would look into the JWK (Durock, Everglide, etc) ones if you want a really smooth experience. For JWK tactiles, there is the T1 and the "medium tactile" switch, which is modeled after those MX clears.

Thing is, I spend all day every day behind a keyboard at work, and I really do use all of the numpad, the nav cluster, and the F-keys (the latter because I do a lot of work in AutoCAD)

Especially the F-keys, asking me to do without those would literally be asking me to retrain my hands from 20+ years of muscle memory.  At least AutoDesk hasn't changed the basic F-key toggles in that time.

I have considered an 1800 style layout and would be willing to give it a try.  I think retraining myself to use the numpad nav layer probably makes the most sense about moving to a smaller format, and would be the least detrimental to my work.  I'd consider a TKL behind that; there's lots of stuff I do that requires authentication with one or another 8 digit PIN and again, those are muscle memory on the numpad.  I *could* deal with regular number keys, I guess, but I'd be slowed down for a while until I caught up.  I less often work in spreadsheets where I use the numpad as well, that's less of a big deal as me doing manual data entry either means we have a new product (rarely happens) or something has gone horribly, horribly wrong.

I definitely feel that; you want it to work with you, not against you! I'm not sure you will be able to find a hotswap PCB of the 1800 and larger, but there may be some hotswap TKLs around (Novelkeys has one in GB right now, but it ships Q4). Honestly depending on how much you like DIY stuff, you can solder in MillMax sockets into any non-hotswap board to turn it into a hotswap board too. What timeframe are you looking to buy it in?

[funkmon]

You say you're firm on full size keyboards... How do you feel about a 75% or TKL? You can easily layer a numpad in, and with the programmability options today, people can go down to a 40% and have full coverage and tons of more options. Full sized keyboards are getting more sparse, because many of the people that get really invested in the hobby dive deep and find they don't need/want the extra keys, or want the extra mouse space. I went from a full size -> 60% -> 40%, and I personally can't imagine myself using anything over 60% anymore (primarily because I would rather lube fewer switches, and I don't want to move my hands to use arrows).

I would recommend you get in on the recent budget hotswap keyboard craze that's been going on. GMMK Pro, NK65/NK87, KBDLite boards, Bauer Lite, Ikki68, Rama Kara, etc. There is actually a lot of price competition at that range, so you will get a lot of bang for your buck. As far as switches, I would look into the JWK (Durock, Everglide, etc) ones if you want a really smooth experience. For JWK tactiles, there is the T1 and the "medium tactile" switch, which is modeled after those MX clears.

Thing is, I spend all day every day behind a keyboard at work, and I really do use all of the numpad, the nav cluster, and the F-keys (the latter because I do a lot of work in AutoCAD)

Especially the F-keys, asking me to do without those would literally be asking me to retrain my hands from 20+ years of muscle memory.  At least AutoDesk hasn't changed the basic F-key toggles in that time.

I have considered an 1800 style layout and would be willing to give it a try.  I think retraining myself to use the numpad nav layer probably makes the most sense about moving to a smaller format, and would be the least detrimental to my work.  I'd consider a TKL behind that; there's lots of stuff I do that requires authentication with one or another 8 digit PIN and again, those are muscle memory on the numpad.  I *could* deal with regular number keys, I guess, but I'd be slowed down for a while until I caught up.  I less often work in spreadsheets where I use the numpad as well, that's less of a big deal as me doing manual data entry either means we have a new product (rarely happens) or something has gone horribly, horribly wrong.

Nah **** that ****. Here's one.

https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=3407

[HungerMechanic]

OP, the advice you've been getting in this thread, from Arch4Life onward, has been valuable and on-point.

If you like 'stiff' switches, such as heavy tactiles, this is a golden age for them. In addition to Holy Pandas, Zealio/Zilents, and U4(T), I would recommend the 'Kiwi' switches, which are a nicer version of T1. [Also, the SP Star purple tactile, which is a nice T1].

The only problem is the availability, but that's the way things are now.

You also mentioned that you like MT3 profile keycaps. It's too bad you missed out on the Drop [group buy] for the PBT dev/tty MT3 keycaps, but you can still buy them regularly in-stock from Amazon [just limited layouts, though - TKL and 60% and 65% mainly.]

The ABS MT3 keycaps are being produced regularly. You can get a 'vintage' vibe with the WoB / BoW MT3 keycaps, and they are producing it in Dasher/Dancer colourway as well. Plus others. So you have lots of options there.

Personally, I think the PBT MT3 is superior to the ABS MT3 because the PBT seemed to be a little more sculpted and deep-dished. The ABS MT3 feels shallower-dished and more generic in profile, but that's just me. One thing that's cool about the ABS MT3 is that it felt and sounded good with the SP Star Purple switches which, again, is a heavy tactile.

I tested ABS MT3 with SP Star Purple on a full-size board called the Archon AK89. It's in-stock and available from harum.io in Korea.

This board is actually pretty awesome for what it cost. It is hotswappable and comes with sound dampening. Tactiles sound thockier on it, and silent switches are quieter. It makes a great loud tactile or silent tactile board. Problem is the stabilizers, which are plate-mount and really bad. I just received some genuine Cherry plate-mount stabilizers, so I will try to replace them. In testing, it's totally viable as the basis for a heavy-tactile build using ABS MT3 switches.

With regard to the recommendations for the ABKO Topre-like board, I have one and it is pretty solid. It is MX-mount. However, I think it uses Costar stabilizers, so using anything other than the stock keycaps could be a real pain with the stabilized keys, as some people have reported. On single unstabilized keys, I've had no problem with aftermarket MX keycaps. But the switches are wobbly, and this is a problem with anything taller than OEM or even Cherry. So I am dubious about using MT3 on an ABKO electro-capacitative board. Going to test it anyway, but I'm really dubious. Best to stick with the stock keycaps, maybe replace the arrow and Esc keys for a little colour.

[treeleaf64]

topre?

[N8N]

So I'm not ignoring this thread, I just haven't responded because I've been working a crapton lately - my free time has been taken up with things like doing laundry and eating sadly.

I've never heard of this Archon keyboard, but what would be the advantage of that over a GMMK?  I haven't ordered anything yet because the GMMK is still out of stock at least the barebones version and I haven't really had a chance to seriously look into anything else.

Edit: I really do want PBT caps.  At one point in time I acquired a NIB Cherry MY board (1800, oddly) from my then employer and used the nice black and white ABS doubleshots.  I destroyed them in a year, with the keys I hit with my pinky having noticeable grooves from my fingernails in them.  Compare and contrast, the Imsto dye subs on my Filco that I am typing this message on right now look barely worn after 10 years or so.  I don't need to make a keycap choice right away as I'm pretty sure I have a full set of old school tan Cherries in my junk box.

Thanks!

[HungerMechanic]

Okay, I'm not hyping the Archon or anything. It's an entry-level semi-custom hotswap board.

I was just pleasantly surprised by mine. It has some advantages over the GMMK:

-The switches are facing the right-way, whereas I'm not sure that was the case [North-facing vs South-facing] with the GMMK

-The Archon has sound-dampening material that comes pre-installed, and it really does make a difference. The GMMK doesn't have much, if any dampening, and so it can sound rattly or chittery.

-The Archon assumes you will want to improve your stabs, and gives you lube for them. They're also plate-mount and can theoretically be replaced with better stabs.


These advantages are helpful to me. I found that the silenced switches like Silent Sky / Silent Forest really are quiet on the Archon, which is not the case on most boards. And the tactiles sound thockier and deeper, including the SP Star EDIT: and Lilac Tactile [which are T1-style switches] using ABS MT3. [PBT MT3 also sounds decent on it with light Ergo Clears, but generally heavier switches are thockier.]

So that places it in a category above, for me, at least.


However, it has some disadvantages. You have to order it from Korea, and some of the instructions are only in Korean. I think I had some difficulty working with the LEDs at first. GMMK also would probably have better software configuration tools. Generally easier to work with, I imagine.

Here's where you can get an AK89. I'm thinking about actually buying the TKL AK87 as a silenced TKL.

https://www.harum.io/products/archon-new-ak89-rgb-owner-made-mechanical-keyboard


It would probably be easier for you to get and deal with the GMMK once it restocks. Both have bad stabilizers [at least the older GMMKs did], but Archon seems to be designed for stabilizer replacement.

[iri]

Are there any interesting options not including all these MX hackjob switches?

[Leslieann]

Not sure why you think they are hackjobs, but okay...

For clicky there's the new SSK and a remake of the Model F if you want buckling spring.
There's also hall effect and optical linears and tactiles (maybe clicky too?).

[Snowdog993]

Not sure why you think they are hackjobs, but okay...

For clicky there's the new SSK and a remake of the Model F if you want buckling spring.
There's also hall effect and optical linears and tactiles (maybe clicky too?).

Agreed Leslieann! Over time the buckling spring will always prevail!

[Arch4Life]

Are there any interesting options not including all these MX hackjob switches?

you can always get topre or niz my friend

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[iri]

There's also hall effect and optical linears and tactiles (maybe clicky too?).

Hall effect tactiles sounds fantastic, what switches are those?

[Maledicted]

Not sure why you think they are hackjobs, but okay...

For clicky there's the new SSK and a remake of the Model F if you want buckling spring.
There's also hall effect and optical linears and tactiles (maybe clicky too?).

Agreed Leslieann! Over time the buckling spring will always prevail!

Both literally and figuratively.

There's also hall effect and optical linears and tactiles (maybe clicky too?).

Hall effect tactiles sounds fantastic, what switches are those?

I don't know that any are in production yet. Keep your eyes on Input Club, if they ever finally deliver on their fever dreams.

[HungerMechanic]

Have to issue a small correction to myself here.

It was actually the Lilac Tactile switch that functioned well with the ABS MT3 keycaps. If the OP likes heavy tactiles and MT3 profile, that's a good combination right there.

[N8N]

Not sure why you think they are hackjobs, but okay...

For clicky there's the new SSK and a remake of the Model F if you want buckling spring.
There's also hall effect and optical linears and tactiles (maybe clicky too?).

Agreed Leslieann! Over time the buckling spring will always prevail!

I actually have a Model M, it's just too loud to use in an office environment.  I actually used that at home for a while.  I also tried an F XT but there was enough weird with it that I couldn't use it for work.  Most notably the f keys to the left old school style, I couldn't get used to that.

[iri]

I actually have a Model M, it's just too loud to use in an office environment.

I used a Unicomp with the floss mod in the office FWIW.

There's also hall effect and optical linears and tactiles (maybe clicky too?).

Hall effect tactiles sounds fantastic, what switches are those?

I don't know that any are in production yet.

OK, so actually they don't exist. Thanks.

[Maledicted]

Not sure why you think they are hackjobs, but okay...

For clicky there's the new SSK and a remake of the Model F if you want buckling spring.
There's also hall effect and optical linears and tactiles (maybe clicky too?).

Agreed Leslieann! Over time the buckling spring will always prevail!

I actually have a Model M, it's just too loud to use in an office environment.  I actually used that at home for a while.  I also tried an F XT but there was enough weird with it that I couldn't use it for work.  Most notably the f keys to the left old school style, I couldn't get used to that.

The Model M was too loud but an F XT wasn't? Those things ping to high heaven. I use an F107 literally in the middle of a library. Nobody has ever minded, not that someone may never mind.

I love the f keys being over there. I never use them for anything other than POST hotkeys myself though.

I actually have a Model M, it's just too loud to use in an office environment.

I used a Unicomp with the floss mod in the office FWIW.

There's also hall effect and optical linears and tactiles (maybe clicky too?).

Hall effect tactiles sounds fantastic, what switches are those?

I don't know that any are in production yet.

OK, so actually they don't exist. Thanks.

Not that I'm aware of. Maybe they've got updates on those Silo switches, somewhere, but it seems to me that they practically stopped talking about them.

[Leslieann]

I could have sworn someone had some but I don't follow them much.
I don't put much faith in any of these types of switches, not due to function but because of them being so proprietary. Trying to invade an open platform and try to close it off rarely works.

[N8N]

The Model M was too loud but an F XT wasn't? Those things ping to high heaven. I use an F107 literally in the middle of a library. Nobody has ever minded, not that someone may never mind.

I love the f keys being over there. I never use them for anything other than POST hotkeys myself though.

I guess I was using some mental shorthand and what I was trying to say wasn't clear...

I used the M at home for work for a while, but stopped.

I also tried the F XT, but while I thought it was the best keyboard I've ever used from a feel standpoint, I could not deal with the F-keys.  There's at least four that I use regularly for AutoCAD and the rest occasionally, and I have been working on a standard layout board for years.  e.g. F3 = Osnap toggle, F8 = ortho toggle, F9 = snap toggle, F11 = Osnap tracking toggle  I use the first three minute to minute as I'm working through the day.  this is why I say I couldn't use the Model F.

Neither the M nor F would fly in my office environment.  As we were doing mandatory WFH several days a week for a while I was having to seriously work on my WFH desk environment (which is really what kind of prompted the thought of buying another keyboard).  I have some coworkers that are uber *****y about "noise" (not in my department thankfully.)  I get snide comments that people can hear my typing on my Filco with clears, I'm sorry (not sorry) if you can't handle normal office noises, I wasn't hired to just sit here and be perfectly silent...  I'm tempted to ditch the Filco and use one of the GI issue Dell rubber dome keyboards for a week or so just so they can really hear what a racket sounds like...  I actually had to do that once for a while because the PKI card reader in my laptop had died and I needed some way to log in until the IT people could stop by and fix it (some of the Dell boards have built in card readers, and I have one of those stashed away for emergencies, if I or someone else in my department needs a backup card reader).  The noise was actually pissing *me* off at that point, because there was no tactile reward for all that racket.  Again sorry (not sorry) to *****y coworkers if you never learned to type with more than your index fingers...

[Snowdog993]

The Model M was too loud but an F XT wasn't? Those things ping to high heaven. I use an F107 literally in the middle of a library. Nobody has ever minded, not that someone may never mind.

I love the f keys being over there. I never use them for anything other than POST hotkeys myself though.

I guess I was using some mental shorthand and what I was trying to say wasn't clear...

I used the M at home for work for a while, but stopped.

I also tried the F XT, but while I thought it was the best keyboard I've ever used from a feel standpoint, I could not deal with the F-keys.  There's at least four that I use regularly for AutoCAD and the rest occasionally, and I have been working on a standard layout board for years.  e.g. F3 = Osnap toggle, F8 = ortho toggle, F9 = snap toggle, F11 = Osnap tracking toggle  I use the first three minute to minute as I'm working through the day.  this is why I say I couldn't use the Model F.

Neither the M nor F would fly in my office environment.  As we were doing mandatory WFH several days a week for a while I was having to seriously work on my WFH desk environment (which is really what kind of prompted the thought of buying another keyboard).  I have some coworkers that are uber *****y about "noise" (not in my department thankfully.)  I get snide comments that people can hear my typing on my Filco with clears, I'm sorry (not sorry) if you can't handle normal office noises, I wasn't hired to just sit here and be perfectly silent...  I'm tempted to ditch the Filco and use one of the GI issue Dell rubber dome keyboards for a week or so just so they can really hear what a racket sounds like...  I actually had to do that once for a while because the PKI card reader in my laptop had died and I needed some way to log in until the IT people could stop by and fix it (some of the Dell boards have built in card readers, and I have one of those stashed away for emergencies, if I or someone else in my department needs a backup card reader).  The noise was actually pissing *me* off at that point, because there was no tactile reward for all that racket.  Again sorry (not sorry) to *****y coworkers if you never learned to type with more than your index fingers...

Well then, don't fret and use a Model M keyboard. Their loss. It has nothing to do with the department you work in. Problem solved. If people in other departments are * about it, give THEM the finger.

[N8N]

Well then, don't fret and use a Model M keyboard. Their loss. It has nothing to do with the department you work in. Problem solved. If people in other departments are * about it, give THEM the finger.

Hah.  Actually for a while I was using my SGI Granite which was fine, but we got standing desks and the tray is too small to accommodate that and leave room for a mouse (almost exactly the same size/shape as a Model M)  The Filco fits fine however, so pretty much any modern keyboard, even full size, will work.

[Maledicted]

I could have sworn someone had some but I don't follow them much.
I don't put much faith in any of these types of switches, not due to function but because of them being so proprietary. Trying to invade an open platform and try to close it off rarely works.

I actually just went back and watched a video from Chyros about the APT hall effect switches, for which there were tactile and clicky variants. QC and communication issues killed the company a few years back before they had a chance to take off. Those must have been what you were thinking about.

The Model M was too loud but an F XT wasn't? Those things ping to high heaven. I use an F107 literally in the middle of a library. Nobody has ever minded, not that someone may never mind.

I love the f keys being over there. I never use them for anything other than POST hotkeys myself though.

I guess I was using some mental shorthand and what I was trying to say wasn't clear...

I used the M at home for work for a while, but stopped.

I also tried the F XT, but while I thought it was the best keyboard I've ever used from a feel standpoint, I could not deal with the F-keys.  There's at least four that I use regularly for AutoCAD and the rest occasionally, and I have been working on a standard layout board for years.  e.g. F3 = Osnap toggle, F8 = ortho toggle, F9 = snap toggle, F11 = Osnap tracking toggle  I use the first three minute to minute as I'm working through the day.  this is why I say I couldn't use the Model F.

Neither the M nor F would fly in my office environment.  As we were doing mandatory WFH several days a week for a while I was having to seriously work on my WFH desk environment (which is really what kind of prompted the thought of buying another keyboard).  I have some coworkers that are uber *****y about "noise" (not in my department thankfully.)  I get snide comments that people can hear my typing on my Filco with clears, I'm sorry (not sorry) if you can't handle normal office noises, I wasn't hired to just sit here and be perfectly silent...  I'm tempted to ditch the Filco and use one of the GI issue Dell rubber dome keyboards for a week or so just so they can really hear what a racket sounds like...  I actually had to do that once for a while because the PKI card reader in my laptop had died and I needed some way to log in until the IT people could stop by and fix it (some of the Dell boards have built in card readers, and I have one of those stashed away for emergencies, if I or someone else in my department needs a backup card reader).  The noise was actually pissing *me* off at that point, because there was no tactile reward for all that racket.  Again sorry (not sorry) to *****y coworkers if you never learned to type with more than your index fingers...

Seriously, MX clear is not a loud switch. I don't typically sit near anybody using a traditional (by modern standards) desktop keyboard anymore, but when I pass by someone typing away on one, I'm surprised by how much noise they make. I almost take a double take to ask what on earth they're typing on, but it must be a rubber dome ... of course.

Well then, don't fret and use a Model M keyboard. Their loss. It has nothing to do with the department you work in. Problem solved. If people in other departments are * about it, give THEM the finger.

 

Well then, don't fret and use a Model M keyboard. Their loss. It has nothing to do with the department you work in. Problem solved. If people in other departments are * about it, give THEM the finger.

Hah.  Actually for a while I was using my SGI Granite which was fine, but we got standing desks and the tray is too small to accommodate that and leave room for a mouse (almost exactly the same size/shape as a Model M)  The Filco fits fine however, so pretty much any modern keyboard, even full size, will work.

I have thought about picking up a husk of one of those. There seemed to be a lot on Ebay recently. Freaking switch scavengers.

[N8N]

My Granite is a PS/2 version.  I also have a PS/2 Wyse board with blacks, but I don't use that one much.  I need to find a good PS/2 to USB adapter for work because since I got a new laptop December before last, I haven't had a PS/2 port on the docking station, but I keep forgetting to order one.  Probably just order another converter like the one I use for my F XT because it's so flexible, the cost isn't much more than a basic one and I'm pretty sure I have XT to AT adapters somewhere for just this reason.

[Maledicted]

My Granite is a PS/2 version.  I also have a PS/2 Wyse board with blacks, but I don't use that one much.  I need to find a good PS/2 to USB adapter for work because since I got a new laptop December before last, I haven't had a PS/2 port on the docking station, but I keep forgetting to order one.  Probably just order another converter like the one I use for my F XT because it's so flexible, the cost isn't much more than a basic one and I'm pretty sure I have XT to AT adapters somewhere for just this reason.

Soarer's or TMK on a cheap Pro Micro will work with just about anything.

[N8N]

Well, today I checked and finally the GMMK was in stock, so I pulled the trigger, bought a set of Pandas as well, and will keep looking for keycaps.  Dunno if the pandas will end up being user switches, but I gotta start somewhere.  Also bought the Gateron/Kailh sampler.  Will put some old school Cherry dye sub caps on unless/until I decide to pull the trigger on something cooler.

Am tempted to try these even though they're not really what I want, they are pretty cool looking

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07WV48W6C

I would totally get the dev/tty set EXCEPT it doesn't have the nav layer printed on the numpad.  That is literally my only issue with it besides the price.

[HungerMechanic]

Too bad about the dev/tty. MT3 is currently on sale at Drop. Don't know if any of their ABS sets have a nav layer printed on the numpad.

Maybe some future GB will have that option? I have an extended set from a pre-order. Although I've never seen those kind of nav indicators on MT3.

[Mistah]

Well, today I checked and finally the GMMK was in stock, so I pulled the trigger, bought a set of Pandas as well, and will keep looking for keycaps.  Dunno if the pandas will end up being user switches, but I gotta start somewhere.  Also bought the Gateron/Kailh sampler.  Will put some old school Cherry dye sub caps on unless/until I decide to pull the trigger on something cooler.

Am tempted to try these even though they're not really what I want, they are pretty cool looking

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07WV48W6C

I would totally get the dev/tty set EXCEPT it doesn't have the nav layer printed on the numpad.  That is literally my only issue with it besides the price.

Congrats my guy! You might want to check out the JWK medium tactile or JWK twilight switches when they're in GB if you end up missing the clear type bump.

[HungerMechanic]

The "Taro Ball" switch is said to be the best of the JWK medium tactiles, if you're looking for their attempt at the Ergo Clear.

[Arch4Life]

Well, today I checked and finally the GMMK was in stock, so I pulled the trigger, bought a set of Pandas as well, and will keep looking for keycaps.  Dunno if the pandas will end up being user switches, but I gotta start somewhere.  Also bought the Gateron/Kailh sampler.  Will put some old school Cherry dye sub caps on unless/until I decide to pull the trigger on something cooler.

Am tempted to try these even though they're not really what I want, they are pretty cool looking

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07WV48W6C

I would totally get the dev/tty set EXCEPT it doesn't have the nav layer printed on the numpad.  That is literally my only issue with it besides the price.

well, Drop has some MT3 keycaps set with 20% discount right now my friend, maybe you'll be interested. I just got the jukebox one for vins vibes lol

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