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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: Metalmind on Wed, 15 July 2015, 05:30:21
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A linear switch with an audible click would be my ideal switch. I hate the tactile bump from mx blues either mx browns. Some kind of hybrid of a red and blue switch would be great.
That's because I hate the tactile bump, it's like a earthquake shaking your fingers or like driving on a stone road, but miss the click when using linear switches. And also I learned to float type so I don't bottom out even on reds (at 90wpm).
I have used browns (bah, damn dump), blues (the reset is too slow, bah), greens (they are great), red (cloud of boobs, really), blacks (i love then too even not my favourite).
Want do you think ?
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The Omron B3GS (Alps clone) switch is the closest I can think of that would fit your bill. Feels very linear with a click but also with very little tactility.
I can't think of an MX variant, maybe panda clears? Though those are on the heavy side, using MX Black/Whites.
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Welcome to Geekhack!
That is an unusual request. Every clicky switch I've tried is tactile, and every linear switch is non-clicky.
Mind you there are lots and lots of switches I haven't tried :))
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Welcome!
How about white switch?
But you have to find and hand pick one by one, to find the one with constant click
It's as heavy as green, click is softer than blues but sort of linear/tactile
Hard to describe, I've to buy 170 white switches to find enough for my lightsaver with constant click
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The only thing I can think of is old Zenith boards. These used linear Alps switches and gad a built-in beeper that sounded when you pressed a key. The beep is soft enough that if you smash the keys you can't hear it.
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See now this has gone and thrown me off on a mental tangent to design a slider or click-plate that would work on a linear slider...
The click itself isn't difficult, you're simply adding to the resistance of the spring to add some potential to the click mechanism. The real interesting part is after the click. You'd only have the spring left which would lessen the force on post activation. Depending upon how light the switch is it could cause a finger sucking effect, inversely tactile if you will.
The easiest would be to use a non-mechanical click like chyros mentioned, but what's the fun in that? ;)
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See now this has gone and thrown me off on a mental tangent to design a slider or click-plate that would work on a linear slider...
The click itself isn't difficult, you're simply adding to the resistance of the spring to add some potential to the click mechanism. The real interesting part is after the click. You'd only have the spring left which would lessen the force on post activation. Depending upon how light the switch is it could cause a finger sucking effect, inversely tactile if you will.
The easiest would be to use a non-mechanical click like chyros mentioned, but what's the fun in that? ;)
I suspect it would be very hard to have a truly linear feel on a mechanically clicky board, which is probably why no-one has bothered so far :p .
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Buzzer. /thread
I've actually used a linear switch that kinda clicked. It was some Asian unbranded MX clone made in the 90's. There was a leaf inside, that was released by stem movement, consequently hit something else in the switch and then resonated. It felt weird and sounded hollow. I didn't notice any bump whatsoever.
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I've actually used a linear switch that kinda clicked. It was some Asian unbranded MX clone made in the 90's. There was a leaf inside, that was released by stem movement, consequently hit something else in the switch and then resonated. It felt weird and sounded hollow. I didn't notice any bump whatsoever.
Seems doable if you used the spring decompression to reset the mechanism. I'm surprised they did that with an MX clone though as it seems more like a solution I'd use on an alps switch.
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I had this idea a while back. I think I would prefer linear switches with a click as they would give me that bit of feedback which feels missing from linears.
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get to work on a design with a linear stem and a click leaf
or maybe use the barrel on the switch bottom and get some sort of plastic piece in there like the plastic clicky pens have... the motion will be linear in feel, but also contain an audible click
but this is just in theory...
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The HiTek Space Invaders would be the best bet I think.
They have a switch that's referred to as "clicky", but it isn't the same as the "tactile clicky" in that you don't really feel the click, you just hear it.
In fact the linear and clicky switches are exactly the same except for a little white plastic piece that tracks in a groove along the back of the switch. You can remove the clicker piece and you have the linear switch.
The click is also pretty subtle on them. More like a "tick" midway through the press. They're also just great switches all around and very stable.
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This is quite an interesting concept. I might have to get a board with those clickey space invaders!
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The only thing I can think of is old Zenith boards. These used linear Alps switches and gad a built-in beeper that sounded when you pressed a key. The beep is soft enough that if you smash the keys you can't hear it.
The beep on the ZKB-2 isn't a tactile response though. If you go for a type on one of those boards with the beeper disabled, you just have a linear switch. A damn fine linear switch, but not tactile one bit.
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The Omron B3GS (Alps clone) switch is the closest I can think of that would fit your bill. Feels very linear with a click but also with very little tactility.
Only the cyan B3G-S switches are not-very-tactile (but yeah, the OP might like them). The amber ones are extremely tactile.
Both types are pretty rare, the cyan ones especially so.
To the OP: sounds like what you really want is a linear switch and a separate clicker in the keyboard.
One other thing to consider though: maybe what you dislike is just MX blue/brown switches specifically, rather than clicky switches in general. I also recommend trying out an IBM Model F sometime, or a nice clicky Alps board.
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This is quite an interesting concept. I might have to get a board with those clickey space invaders!
They're really great.
I ended up losing one of the little plastic clickers while doing a thorough cleaning, so I have a linear switch. I learned that you can just take them out and put them in pretty easily, so you could mix them up as you'd like.
The nice thing is that they all still feel the same regardless of the clicker piece.
The clicker piece is a very small and light piece of plastic that follows a > shaped groove up the back of the switch plunger. As it travels up, it passes the vertex of the >, which makes a click but doesn't really take any force.
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The only thing I can think of is old Zenith boards. These used linear Alps switches and gad a built-in beeper that sounded when you pressed a key. The beep is soft enough that if you smash the keys you can't hear it.
The beep on the ZKB-2 isn't a tactile response though. If you go for a type on one of those boards with the beeper disabled, you just have a linear switch. A damn fine linear switch, but not tactile one bit.
Uhhh isn't that kind of the whole point? XD
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The nice thing is that they all still feel the same regardless of the clicker piece.
That’s an exaggeration. The clicky ones are noticeably tactile, while the linear ones are very smooth.
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The only thing I can think of is old Zenith boards. These used linear Alps switches and gad a built-in beeper that sounded when you pressed a key. The beep is soft enough that if you smash the keys you can't hear it.
The beep on the ZKB-2 isn't a tactile response though. If you go for a type on one of those boards with the beeper disabled, you just have a linear switch. A damn fine linear switch, but not tactile one bit.
Uhhh isn't that kind of the whole point? XD
I had to reread OP. Disregard my comment. ZKB-2 is the board for this person.
I should really clean up the ones I have and get rid of them.
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The nice thing is that they all still feel the same regardless of the clicker piece.
That’s an exaggeration. The clicky ones are noticeably tactile, while the linear ones are very smooth.
I just checked both my clicky Space Invader keyboards and there is nothing like a tactile point in them. Even when pressing very very slowly, there is perhaps a faint trace of when the clicker ticks, but you'd be hard pressed to feel is even slowly. You definitely don't feel anything like a tactile switch when typing; they are effectively linear.
Perhaps the genuinely linear (often white) HiTeks are smoother in some sense, but the clicky HiTeks don't have any tactile breaking point like you do on MX Blue/Green, tactile Alps, or tactile notch like MX Brown/Clear, or tactile hump like Topre.
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It is hard for me to imagine a solution outside of a linear switch with an external beeper.
Although "tactile" and "clicky" are not exactly the same, they are very closely inter-related.
My ultimate preference would be the opposite of the OP's: a distinctly tactile switch that is not audibly "clicky"
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I think the closest you are going to get with clickey linears would be a linear switch custom board wired up to an xwhatsit controller and then install a solenoid. The downside to this is with the solenoid installed you can't have indicator LEDs with the current version.
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I would be shocked if you can't find a freeware program to add a click from every keypress, which comes out the speakers of your computer.
If it HAS to come from the keyboard and you like MX Reds, put a clicker/buzzer in the keyboard.
If it HAS to come from the switches, it sounds like you need to find some Space Invaders.
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If the click is not fake, the click mechanism will generally add at least some tactility.
Take the ProWorld switch for example...more or less an MX Black copy plus a click leaf. Even though the stem is a lot like an MX Black, (according to reports) it feels tactile, not linear.
(P.S. Somebody totally needs to do something similar to the ProWorld switch but using the sensing method (or something similar) from A4Tech's LK switches. Optical clicky switch FTW!).
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This is quite an interesting concept. I might have to get a board with those clickey space invaders!
They're really great.
I ended up losing one of the little plastic clickers while doing a thorough cleaning, so I have a linear switch. I learned that you can just take them out and put them in pretty easily, so you could mix them up as you'd like.
The nice thing is that they all still feel the same regardless of the clicker piece.
The clicker piece is a very small and light piece of plastic that follows a > shaped groove up the back of the switch plunger. As it travels up, it passes the vertex of the >, which makes a click but doesn't really take any force.
Thanks for the info. Do you know where I might look to find one? Or what I might be looking for?
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This is quite an interesting concept. I might have to get a board with those clickey space invaders!
They're really great.
I ended up losing one of the little plastic clickers while doing a thorough cleaning, so I have a linear switch. I learned that you can just take them out and put them in pretty easily, so you could mix them up as you'd like.
The nice thing is that they all still feel the same regardless of the clicker piece.
The clicker piece is a very small and light piece of plastic that follows a > shaped groove up the back of the switch plunger. As it travels up, it passes the vertex of the >, which makes a click but doesn't really take any force.
Thanks for the info. Do you know where I might look to find one? Or what I might be looking for?
I got both of mine on eBay. Search for "NMB keyboard" or "space invaders". Watch out that many NMB keyboards are rubber dome (and they're still be listed as "clicky" on eBay). The RT101 is a safe bet, or if there are photos that show the switch itself.
Better yet, looks like this seller has a bunch of them going for $30.
link (http://www.ebay.ca/itm/NMB-HiTek-Space-Invaders-Clicky-Vintage-Mechanical-PC-AT-Keyboard-RT101-RT8255C-/131544670996?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1ea0ac6314)
They really are a gem of a keyboard. I'm surprised they aren't brought up more since they're well liked by those who have them. Might even get another for myself.
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It is hard for me to imagine a solution outside of a linear switch with an external beeper.
Although "tactile" and "clicky" are not exactly the same, they are very closely inter-related.
My ultimate preference would be the opposite of the OP's: a distinctly tactile switch that is not audibly "clicky"
MX browns or clears?
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This is quite an interesting concept. I might have to get a board with those clickey space invaders!
They're really great.
I ended up losing one of the little plastic clickers while doing a thorough cleaning, so I have a linear switch. I learned that you can just take them out and put them in pretty easily, so you could mix them up as you'd like.
The nice thing is that they all still feel the same regardless of the clicker piece.
The clicker piece is a very small and light piece of plastic that follows a > shaped groove up the back of the switch plunger. As it travels up, it passes the vertex of the >, which makes a click but doesn't really take any force.
Thanks for the info. Do you know where I might look to find one? Or what I might be looking for?
I got both of mine on eBay. Search for "NMB keyboard" or "space invaders". Watch out that many NMB keyboards are rubber dome (and they're still be listed as "clicky" on eBay). The RT101 is a safe bet, or if there are photos that show the switch itself.
Better yet, looks like this seller has a bunch of them going for $30.
link (http://www.ebay.ca/itm/NMB-HiTek-Space-Invaders-Clicky-Vintage-Mechanical-PC-AT-Keyboard-RT101-RT8255C-/131544670996?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1ea0ac6314)
They really are a gem of a keyboard. I'm surprised they aren't brought up more since they're well liked by those who have them. Might even get another for myself.
Thanks! I'll take a look.
The seller PM'd me actually, but I'm going to try to wait before buying one since I've spent quite a bit already this month =/
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It is hard for me to imagine a solution outside of a linear switch with an external beeper.
Although "tactile" and "clicky" are not exactly the same, they are very closely inter-related.
My ultimate preference would be the opposite of the OP's: a distinctly tactile switch that is not audibly "clicky"
MX browns or clears?
Browns don't really have a super tactile feeling, though.
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I got both of mine on eBay. Search for "NMB keyboard" or "space invaders". Watch out that many NMB keyboards are rubber dome (and they're still be listed as "clicky" on eBay). The RT101 is a safe bet, or if there are photos that show the switch itself.
Better yet, looks like this seller has a bunch of them going for $30.
link (http://www.ebay.ca/itm/NMB-HiTek-Space-Invaders-Clicky-Vintage-Mechanical-PC-AT-Keyboard-RT101-RT8255C-/131544670996?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1ea0ac6314)
They really are a gem of a keyboard. I'm surprised they aren't brought up more since they're well liked by those who have them. Might even get another for myself.
For the record that seller is XMIT here on GH and DT. You can see his sale thread here on GH (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=73138)
It's easy to tell since he has so many keyboards in his garage right now he has to code them with GUIDs! :))
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For the record that seller is XMIT here on GH and DT. You can see his sale thread here on GH (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=73138)
It's easy to tell since he has so many keyboards in his garage right now he has to code them with GUIDs! :))
Thanks for linking to his thread. Saves me the trouble of finding it.
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It is hard for me to imagine a solution outside of a linear switch with an external beeper.
Although "tactile" and "clicky" are not exactly the same, they are very closely inter-related.
My ultimate preference would be the opposite of the OP's: a distinctly tactile switch that is not audibly "clicky"
MX browns or clears?
Browns don't really have a super tactile feeling, though.
True, although they have quite a big following.
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When and if I decide to get one or more Cherry boards, jailhouse green and ergo clear are the ones that interest me.
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It is hard for me to imagine a solution outside of a linear switch with an external beeper.
Although "tactile" and "clicky" are not exactly the same, they are very closely inter-related.
My ultimate preference would be the opposite of the OP's: a distinctly tactile switch that is not audibly "clicky"
MX browns or clears?
Browns don't really have a super tactile feeling, though.
True, although they have quite a big following.
I can't understand why. They're just so... meh.
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MX browns or clears?
Browns don't really have a super tactile feeling, though.
True, although they have quite a big following.
I can't understand why. They're just so... meh.
Browns are widely available, more quiet than blue (not clicky), and just tactile enough to not be linear.
I'm not crazy about them, but they're easy to get and easy to live with.
It's an easy middle ground to start from, especially.
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MX browns or clears?
Browns don't really have a super tactile feeling, though.
True, although they have quite a big following.
I can't understand why. They're just so... meh.
Browns are widely available, more quiet than blue (not clicky), and just tactile enough to not be linear.
I'm not crazy about them, but they're easy to get and easy to live with.
It's an easy middle ground to start from, especially.
Yea, I guess I understand that, but they're probably my least favorite switch that I've used.
I have a Minila Air with browns and I rarely use it. Tried it with different sets of caps, o-rings, still haven't been that happy with it.
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What is happening to GH? 35 replies and nobody has mentioned using a software click as a solution like ClicKey: https://www.grc.com/freeware/clickey.htm
The other options would be a buzzer or a solenoid in the keyboard itself.
Any switch that clicks will have some slight tactile effect.
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Any switch that clicks will have some slight tactile effect.
Yeah, that's what I figured as well, or at least I can't think of a mechanism that taps energy off for mechanical energy storage while keeping the parent mechanism fully linear before as well as after release. Everything would either have a pressure ramp before, sudden release of pressure after, or both.
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Any switch that clicks will have some slight tactile effect.
Yeah, that's what I figured as well, or at least I can't think of a mechanism that taps energy off for mechanical energy storage while keeping the parent mechanism fully linear before as well as after release. Everything would either have a pressure ramp before, sudden release of pressure after, or both.
The exception to this that in aware of is the HiTek Space Invaders.
There's no buildup or pushing through on their "clicky" switch, unlike their "tactile" switch.
The piece that makes the click is pretty well imperceptible since it's just a tiny piece of plastic that makes a "tick" sound when it changes direction in the < shaped groove on the plunger.
You can press the key slowly enough that it doesn't make that noise, even.
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I can't understand why. They're just so... meh.
They're decently light, they have a bit of feeling to them (I can't stand linears because there's no tactility at all), and they're quiet. Overall pretty nice switches.
Clears are better, but browns are rather good as well.
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What is happening to GH? 35 replies and nobody has mentioned using a software click as a solution like ClicKey: https://www.grc.com/freeware/clickey.htm
The other options would be a buzzer or a solenoid in the keyboard itself.
Now to be fair chyros and I were talking non-mechancial clicks in posts 4 and 5. And if you wait for the key press event to be signaled all the way into the OS and to user land, you're going to have a noticeable delay. You really need the keyboard to be signaling directly.
Any switch that clicks will have some slight tactile effect.
See, where's the fun if we just dismiss this out of hand? I've thought of all sorts of absurdly expensive ways to make clicks without tactile responses in the last day!
I'm thinking switchable magnets right now! ;D
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What is happening to GH? 35 replies and nobody has mentioned using a software click as a solution like ClicKey: https://www.grc.com/freeware/clickey.htm
The other options would be a buzzer or a solenoid in the keyboard itself.
Now to be fair chyros and I were talking non-mechancial clicks in posts 4 and 5. And if you wait for the key press event to be signaled all the way into the OS and to user land, you're going to have a noticeable delay. You really need the keyboard to be signaling directly.
Any switch that clicks will have some slight tactile effect.
See, where's the fun if we just dismiss this out of hand? I've thought of all sorts of absurdly expensive ways to make clicks without tactile responses in the last day!
I'm thinking switchable magnets right now! ;D
Haha yeah I had thought of magnets too, but magnets are still a two-way interaction so whatever pushes the clicker will resist on the slider. I can think of many linear clicker mechanisms, but those would have a click completely dependent on the speed and force of the key push, so they'd be very silent when pushing slowly and much louder when pressed fast.
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Haha yeah I had thought of magnets too, but magnets are still a two-way interaction so whatever pushes the clicker will resist on the slider. I can think of many linear clicker mechanisms, but those would have a click completely dependent on the speed and force of the key push, so they'd be very silent when pushing slowly and much louder when pressed fast.
XMIT's NCR K430 post gave me an idea with electromagnets where you could use a similar effect to trigger the magnet. Resetting could be done with either mechanical resistance which the magnet overcomes (need a strong magnet), a second electromagnet (more complicated electronics), or mount the click mechanism vertically so that "off" means the clicker falls with gravity.
By the time I'm done these switches will make old hall effect's look dinky in comparison. :))
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Haha yeah I had thought of magnets too, but magnets are still a two-way interaction so whatever pushes the clicker will resist on the slider. I can think of many linear clicker mechanisms, but those would have a click completely dependent on the speed and force of the key push, so they'd be very silent when pushing slowly and much louder when pressed fast.
XMIT's NCR K430 post gave me an idea with electromagnets where you could use a similar effect to trigger the magnet. Resetting could be done with either mechanical resistance which the magnet overcomes (need a strong magnet), a second electromagnet (more complicated electronics), or mount the click mechanism vertically so that "off" means the clicker falls with gravity.
By the time I'm done these switches will make old hall effect's look dinky in comparison. :))
Yeah, I guess it would have to be based on a magnetic valve system where the valve output, driving the clicker, would have to be completely separate from the slider mechanism. This way the clicker would be electrical rather than mechanical in origin, however. Good thing is that this system could even allow a clicker that ticks continuously as long as the switch held down, in theory. However, using a magnetic valve and therefore delegating the clicker to electronics rather than mechanics, you go back to square 1 and you might as well use the electrical beeper that Zenith used :p .
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I totally have a rationalization that goes like this: the click itself is done by the mechanical action of a piece of metal hitting something! Therefore, totally mechanical.
Ignore the man behind the curtain! :-X