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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: macguy80 on Thu, 29 June 2017, 22:24:56
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If you compare a Model F to a Model M *based on FEEL and COMFORT alone*, is there any reason to also keep your Model M?
Layout and other factors do not matter to me in the slightest.
I regard the F as superior in feel, but am curious if anyone sees a reason to keep an M around. :) I am personally of the opinion, 'if you have a working F, who needs an M taking up space?'
Please note: I am asking this as someone who has personal experience with both.
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you're obviously supposed to keep the M around as a reminder of how much better the F is.
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No, there is no reason.
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you're obviously supposed to keep the M around as a reminder of how much better the F is.
I have other keyboards to fulfill that function :)
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No, there is no reason.
Thanks for the reality check, as always! Cheers, mate!
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Agreed there is really no reason. I've sold all my Model M after getting into the F game.
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Thanks to all.
When my F arrives, the M will be gone.
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I used to think there wasn't, but I lean now towards the M being more comfortable, if a little stiffer. The F bottom-out, at least on the 4704's, is very hard and kind of unpleasant as someone who prefers plates with some give.
I feel the same about tray-mount MX and more and more my Realforce is seeming to lack in that department.
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Absolutely no reason. Going from a Model M to an F is like no longer having to wear birth control.
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If you use the F for self-defense you might crack the case
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I just got my XT to USB converter from Hagstron, so I'm using the Model F, right now, and that space bar is killing my thumbs...maybe i need to exercise more. I like that it feels like I'm popping little bubbles with those little clacks.
I`ll be using this guy for the weekend, just so i can practice on the XT layout.
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Model M is better looking imo.
Model F is 100% imposing but the Model M is a nice balance between "elegant" and "intimidating"
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that space bar is killing my thumbs...maybe i need to exercise more
for me it was just a matter of time, and not even much of it, and i'm not a big/strong dude either.
and regarding the layout, i think my biggest gripe is the small left shift :-/
and ontopic: yeah, my model M became 100% obsolete after receiving my first model F. in fact.. in comparison, the model M does not even feel very good imo.
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I recently found a capacitive buckling springs keyboard module from an IBM typewriter. I actually prefer the feel of my beat up Model M. The "Model F" feels very scratchy and barely tactile
But I think this is because of how heavily used and old the "Model F" is. I mean it's heavily used enough the keycaps have a good amount of shine on them, which is not easy to do to IBM's caps.
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I just got my XT to USB converter from Hagstron, so I'm using the Model F, right now, and that space bar is killing my thumbs...
That's one reason I think the 122-key Model F is superior; the space bar has the same actuation force as the other keys.
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I just got my XT to USB converter from Hagstron, so I'm using the Model F, right now, and that space bar is killing my thumbs...
That's one reason I think the 122-key Model F is superior; the space bar has the same actuation force as the other keys.
You can adjust the weighting on the F XT and F AT spacebar; you cannot do this with the F122 one. That said, you don't really NEED to with the F122 xD .
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I just got my XT to USB converter from Hagstron, so I'm using the Model F, right now, and that space bar is killing my thumbs...
That's one reason I think the 122-key Model F is superior; the space bar has the same actuation force as the other keys.
You can adjust the weighting on the F XT and F AT spacebar
Sure, you can do it but it's rather involved, which is another reason I prefer the F-122.
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You can adjust the weighting on the F XT and F AT spacebar; you cannot do this with the F122 one. That said, you don't really NEED to with the F122 xD .
Sounds tricky. The weighting seems intentional. Why, oh why, Keyboard Gods?
Big fan, btw. I enjoy your videos very much.
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Model M = Feels like Topre 55g with a tactile feel.
Model F = Typing on air. perfect tactile feel.
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I actually prefer Model M sound to Model F. Also Model F layouts get on my nerves, and super heavy space bar is almost unusable for me. The feel is great though but I can't use this keyboard daily, while Model Ms are great daily drivers.
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Also Model F layouts get on my nerves, and super heavy space bar is almost unusable for me. The feel is great though but I can't use this keyboard daily, while Model Ms are great daily drivers.
That's true for the Model F XT, but the 122-key Model F basically has the same layout as the Model M(with an additional 12 function keys), and the space bar is weighted the same as any other key.
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I actually prefer Model M sound to Model F.
Also Model F layouts get on my nerves,
Model F with floss mod has an ideal sound.
If you can do the physical work, and have the desk space, a 122-key terminal can be brought very close to a standard Model M layout.
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=48786.0 (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=48786.0)
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removed.
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I actually prefer Model M sound to Model F. Also Model F layouts get on my nerves, and super heavy space bar is almost unusable for me. The feel is great though but I can't use this keyboard daily, while Model Ms are great daily drivers.
XT and AT have a heavy space bar but the Kishsaver space bar is light.
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I've ordered an F77 from Ellipse. :)
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XT and AT have a heavy space bar but the Kishsaver space bar is light.
My experience is that only XT (incl Bigfoot) and AT have the mile-long space bars with silly under-carriage stabilizer mechanisms.
122-key and 4700 family terminals all have standard-sized, standard-weight space bars.
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My experience is that only XT (incl Bigfoot) and AT have the mile-long space bars with silly under-carriage stabilizer mechanisms.
122-key and 4700 family terminals all have standard-sized, standard-weight space bars.
That's definitely a good thing, from my perspective. :)
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removed.
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Risky? Yes, I suppose so. If you have good Dremel skills you will be OK.
You will need to grind out 2 clean half-circles, and then you can cut the under-carriage to keep the added barrels snug.
If you can do what is in these 2 photos, the rest is easy:
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removed.
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I have both a F and a M and I flip between them depending on the work(excel) I need to get done. Usually once a month when I need to pay all my bills online, I bust out the M just for the layout. For the rest of the month, the F rides king ;D
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I have a Model F and a Model M for the same reason I have a Model M and a Unicomp: They're all different, they're all fun to use, and they all beat the #$*@ out of everything else.
It doesn't matter how good an F is—anything seems ordinary after a while. It's the downside of human adaptability. You need to mix it up. Such is life. Stop agonizing over details and enjoy your good buckling-spring fortune, is my suggestion.
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Model F is better then Model M in every way.
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Model F is better then Model M in every way.
Layout?
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Model F is better then Model M in every way.
Layout?
Layout can be converted pretty easily for the AT and if you can afford it, an F122 or F107 for modern layout.
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I have a Model F and a Model M for the same reason I have a Model M and a Unicomp: They're all different, they're all fun to use, and they all beat the #$*@ out of everything else.
It doesn't matter how good an F is—anything seems ordinary after a while. It's the downside of human adaptability. You need to mix it up. Such is life. Stop agonizing over details and enjoy your good buckling-spring fortune, is my suggestion.
You're right. I have several lesser keyboards, such as Topre clones, that should go before I consider parting with my Unicomp.
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All this buckling spring talk makes me jelly. :p
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@Snowdog993
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I own a good chuck of the model f keyboards and I still use my unicomp model m.
>_> I think the model m is better than beamsprings.. :x
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I own a good chuck of the model f keyboards and I still use my unicomp model m.
>_> I think the model m is better than beamsprings.. :x
wat
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I don't know how useful this is, since I haven't compared them side-by-side, but. . .
Several years back when I got my Unicomp Spacesaver M, I'd read some articles about the "legendary" Model M, and I just assumed that the Unicomp would take me back to the great keyboards I remembered from school days and the original IBM PC -- with the heavy metal case, function keys on the left, exquisite key action and sound.
I was disappointed by the creaky plastic case and the stiff-and-clunky key action. I found myself wondering, is time playing tricks on me? Could my memories from 30 years ago really be that rose-tinted? And now, of course, I know that the keyboards I remember so fondly (the only good thing about those ridiculous computers!) were Model F. And yes, I have placed my order for a new F77.
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removed.
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I own a good chuck of the model f keyboards and I still use my unicomp model m.
>_> I think the model m is better than beamsprings.. :x
wat
They just don't feel as good as everyone hypes them up to be. Just an opinion..I also don't like having to hold my hands 2 feet off the desk to use them (most of them). :p Don't get me wrong they are fantastic switches and one day I'll own one, but for daily use it just isn't for me.
@alienman82
I also switch between them often and it's funny because when I do switch I feel like what ever I switched to feels better. Lol
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I own a good chuck of the model f keyboards and I still use my unicomp model m.
>_> I think the model m is better than beamsprings.. :x
wat
They just don't feel as good as everyone hypes them up to be. Just an opinion..I also don't like having to hold my hands 2 feet off the desk to use them (most of them). :p Don't get me wrong they are fantastic switches and one day I'll own one, but for daily use it just isn't for me.
@alienman82
I also switch between them often and it's funny because when I do switch I feel like what ever I switched to feels better. Lol
Products have a curve. From idea, to ideal, to profit.
You start with a concept, and move toward perfect execution, and then once there, you proceed to economize.
Where Model F and Beamspring are on such a curve is debatable.
Having multiple Ms, Fs, Beams, Domes, and exotic vintage switches... I can't decide if F or Beamspring is the ideal.
F could be said to be an economized BM. But it is not bad. With M, you immediately feel in your intelligible soul, your gonads. "Something is wrong." Why is my plastic flapping plastic.
But the F is not a bad BM.
This concludes this thought.
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I keep my M around cause it is PS2; the KVM it is connected to only accepts PS2. My F is USB, used on the other PCs on my desk.
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I might be a loner in this, but to my ears, the IBM Model M sounds nicer than the Model F. There is something about the extremely-mettalic sounds that is not to my liking. Feel-wise, yes, I prefer the F by a mile; sound-wise... I stay with the M.
Anybody else feels this way?
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Despite being one of the original Model F fanboys around these parts, I still find something rather elegant and pleasant about a bolt modded SSK...
Depends on whether you want to have as small of a keyboard collection as possible I suppose!
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For me (the OP) it has recently become a moot point. My Unicomp model M suddenly decided that certain keys would no longer register consistently, with said behavior verified across computers of several platforms. Being physically disabled and therefore unable to properly investigate the source of the problem, out it went. If I want one, I'll have to order a new one. :)
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I might be a loner in this, but to my ears, the IBM Model M sounds nicer than the Model F. There is something about the extremely-mettalic sounds that is not to my liking. Feel-wise, yes, I prefer the F by a mile; sound-wise... I stay with the M.
Anybody else feels this way?
The sound and feeling of keys bottoming out on the Model F is kind of harsh. Not sure if it was that way when new… Does any deterioration of the foam spacer cause a change in typing sound or feeling, I wonder? Has anyone tried replacing it with, say, Sorbothane?
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Sorbothane is probably too thick.
The floss mod makes the F just right - I consider it a standard component of an F refurbishment.
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Is the F77 already being sold or does he just take orders?
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I'm not really a fan of either the M or the F... :-X
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Sorbothane is probably too thick.
The floss mod makes the F just right - I consider it a standard component of an F refurbishment.
Sorbothane does come in different thicknesses. I'm not sure how thick that layer is supposed to be, though. I haven't opened my XT up yet.
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Is the F77 already being sold or does he just take orders?
He is just taking orders. I have one for an F62. Can’t wait! :D
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Sorbothane is probably too thick.
The floss mod makes the F just right - I consider it a standard component of an F refurbishment.
I will try doing the Floss Mod. Do you recommend any product/brand of dental floss in particular, fohats?
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This has worked well for me, if you are in the US:
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Thanks a lot man! I will try to source that dental floss somehow (I am not US-based).
I see you have the flipper completely outside the keyboard in that latest picture. Is it necessary to completely disassemble the keyboard in order to do the mod? Or would just taking out the keycaps be enough?
I have completely opened up my F before so not afraid of that, but I'd like to know if I can save myself some work (a whole disassembly is quite time-consuming, lol).
Thanks again!
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Thanks a lot man! I will try to source that dental floss somehow (I am not US-based).
I see you have the flipper completely outside the keyboard in that latest picture. Is it necessary to completely disassemble the keyboard in order to do the mod? Or would just taking out the keycaps be enough?
I have completely opened up my F before so not afraid of that, but I'd like to know if I can save myself some work (a whole disassembly is quite time-consuming, lol).
Thanks again!
You can do it just pulling the keycaps off. I really like the ping though, it's half the fun of the thing.
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@Snowdog993
Please resume.
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My curiosity has been piqued. Commence ebay model f bidding wars :cool:
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Beamspring = Goodbye model F?
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Beamspring = Goodbye model F?
For me, there are 2 deal-killers for beamsprings:
1. All the layouts are bad, some much worse than others.
2. The height (thickness, whatever you want to call it) is abominable. Most of use use desks that keep our hand too high already.
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3. Price and availability. I recently saw one on eBay (seeing them at all is rare to begin with) and bid on it but in the end it went for about $1000....
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I always end up going back to my SSK simply because I can still appreciate how great membrane buckling springs are.
My only Model F now is a 4704 107 key which I absolutely love, but the layout is a real pain to use due to how wide the keyboard is. Even an F77 isn't perfect.
Beamsprings are even more stupid in terms of their layouts and the height of the board & the keycaps. I find them very difficult to type fast on.
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4. On top of the first three listed deal-breakers, I would imagine that beamspring boards would also have the drawback, due to their age, of being even more difficult to interface with a modern machine.
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4. On top of the first three listed deal-breakers, I would imagine that beamspring boards would also have the drawback, due to their age, of being even more difficult to interface with a modern machine.
Actually that much isn't really true since the controller was easily removable in the original design and there are after-market controllers you can get to talk straight to USB. There is some set up and calibration involved though.
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I want a couple extra F62 PCBs from Ellipse, get some new beamspring plates cut, access to a break for the 90* edges and harvest some switches to make new a B62.
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Thanks a lot man! I will try to source that dental floss somehow (I am not US-based).
I see you have the flipper completely outside the keyboard in that latest picture. Is it necessary to completely disassemble the keyboard in order to do the mod? Or would just taking out the keycaps be enough?
I have completely opened up my F before so not afraid of that, but I'd like to know if I can save myself some work (a whole disassembly is quite time-consuming, lol).
Thanks again!
If you can't source the dental floss locally (I am US. Based and can't find it locally) use the code strands from paracord. Just make sure to use very sharp scissors to cut it and keep from fraying.
I have a video about it in YouTube of you want me to post it.