In search of a stylish clicky keyboard...

[Ulysses31]

Hi guys.  

I'm new here.  I stumbled upon this forum during my fruitless search for a new keyboard that would fit my needs.  I'll fill in some background first to explain some things.

My old keyboard is dying.  It's a ten-year old Logitech Deluxe with those (from what i've read) infamous rubber-dome switches.  It cost about £30 at the time and has served me very well over the years; god knows how much i've typed on it and it's always been accurate and reliable, with no superfluous keys and a heavy plastic and steel construction.  I could probably use this thing to knock someone out.  Over the last couple of years though the domes have been wearing out.  I'd fix problems with unresponsive keys by opening the keyboard and swapping worn-out domes for ones that were rarely used, like the right-hand Windows key.  Now though i've run out of "spare" domes, and so i've been searching for a good quality replacement for a while and not had much success.

I'm one of those people (perhaps i'm the only one, perhaps i'm a Luddite) who likes his peripherals to do what they were intended to do and do that thing very well.  I would prefer to spend a little more on a quality device that lasted a long time rather than replace a cheap device every year.  When I had to replace my ageing and wonderful old Diamondtron CRT, the only LCD that came close in terms of quality cost me an arm and a leg but it was worth it.  

In summary, i'm after a keyboard that doesn't have a bunch of multimedia keys and other nonsense on it.  I just want a keyboard that is hard-wearing, pleasant to type on, and without a thick clumpy body.  As a British resident, the only clicky  keyboard with a reputation for durability seems to be the G83-3000 series by Cherry.  My desk-space is limited though, and frankly that keyboard has a big ugly plastic body that looks to be about an inch thick, even thicker at the top.  Why oh why isn't it possible to purchase a KBTalking or a Filco-style keyboard in this country at a less than extortionate price?  These look like dream choices for a keyboard, with a small footprint and an elegant style that would suit the rest of my computer system - smart, professional and understated.  

Assuming I were willing to shell out twice the cost of a G83-3000 to import a Filco (since I can't find anyone who'll import a KBTalking from Taiwan) would it be possible to remap some keys within windows so I could still enter for example, a "£" symbol?  I know they only make American layouts but I could adapt to that; I just don't want to go to so much trouble and expense and lose functionality.

Anyway, thanks in advance for all your advice.  Sorry for making this such a long-winded first post but I am really frustrated that I have limited choices just because of where I live, and I don't want to feel like a chump and purchase something inferior when I know there are better devices out there.  I am willing to put a lot of effort into getting what I want.  For example, most of my workstation parts were imported from California O_O.

[Whiskey in the Jar-o]

Hi guys.  
I'm new here.  I stumbled upon this forum during my fruitless search for a new keyboard that would fit my needs.  I'll fill in some background first to explain some things.

My old keyboard is dying.  It's a ten-year old Logitech Deluxe with those (from what i've read) infamous rubber-dome switches.  It cost about £30 at the time and has served me very well over the years; god knows how much i've typed on it and it's always been accurate and reliable, with no superfluous keys and a heavy plastic and steel construction.  

Do you have a pic of this board?  What's the exact model number?  You may still be able to get the same one under some other brand.

I'm one of those people (perhaps i'm the only one, perhaps i'm a Luddite) who likes his peripherals to do what they were intended to do and do that thing very well.  I would prefer to spend a little more on a quality device that lasted a long time rather than replace a cheap device every year.  When I had to replace my ageing and wonderful old Diamondtron CRT, the only LCD that came close in terms of quality cost me an arm and a leg but it was worth it.  

Which LCD is that, BTW?

As a British resident, the only clicky  keyboard with a reputation for durability seems to be the G83-3000 series by Cherry.

Surely you mean the G80-3000?  G83 is Cherry's cheap membrane model.

[Ulysses31]

Hi there - thanks for the fast reply ^_^.  I don't think I could get a new version of this keyboard; it's pretty ordinary by today's standards I would imagine.  I'd also like a black keyboard rather than white, to match everything else I have.  This is the only picture I could find of it online:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/71Q2ZE82NVL._SS400_.gif

I was looking for a S-IPS LCD with accurate colour.  I'm fairly loyal to NEC having used their products before so I went after the biggest LCD my system could support, and that happened to be the 2690WUXi.  The 24 inch model is only available in America, so I had to pay a lot more than was necessary for that resolution.  That, and UK prices being what they are it cost me the equivalent of around $1600 at the time.   Still, it should last me a long time I reckon.  I was a big LCD-doubter until I turned this thing on - the difference between TN and S-IPS technology is huge.

You're correct, it is the G80-3000 - sorry, all these model numbers can get confusing.  Is there a difference between "membrane" and "rubber dome" technology or are they just different ways of saying the same thing?  I've seen rubber mats in small devices like remote controls that work on the same prinicipal, is that what is meant by "membrane"?  Cheers for the help!

[Whiskey in the Jar-o]

Hi there - thanks for the fast reply ^_^.  I don't think I could get a new version of this keyboard; it's pretty ordinary by today's standards I would imagine.  I'd also like a black keyboard rather than white, to match everything else I have.  This is the only picture I could find of it online:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/71Q2ZE82NVL._SS400_.gif

No, I can't really tell if it's still available under other brands.  Perhaps the new Logitech Deluxe keyboards have the same feel.  Finding the right keyboard can be an arduous process.  My current favourite is the MS Natural Multimedia (no longer made), which I bought by accident.  It's obviously a membrane, but the keys are the most tactile of all the membrane keyboards I've tried.  You may have to try quite a few to find what you like.  Cherry Cymotion keyboards have very good membranes.  Alas, they are rather bulky.

I was looking for a S-IPS LCD with accurate colour.  I'm fairly loyal to NEC having used their products before so I went after the biggest LCD my system could support, and that happened to be the 2690WUXi.  The 24 inch model is only available in America, so I had to pay a lot more than was necessary for that resolution.  That, and UK prices being what they are it cost me the equivalent of around $1600 at the time.   Still, it should last me a long time I reckon.  I was a big LCD-doubter until I turned this thing on - the difference between TN and S-IPS technology is huge.

Yeah, I had the same problem.  Couldn't stand TN and VA screens, so ended up with the NEC 20wgx2, which is a glossy IPS panel.

You're correct, it is the G80-3000 - sorry, all these model numbers can get confusing.  Is there a difference between "membrane" and "rubber dome" technology or are they just different ways of saying the same thing?  I've seen rubber mats in small devices like remote controls that work on the same prinicipal, is that what is meant by "membrane"?  Cheers for the help!

Yes, they refer to the same thing.

[fkeidjn]

The only membrane keyboard though that uses a mechanical mechanism is the IBM model M.  If you want black, try looking for the M13, which is a 101-key trackpoint keyboard.  Otherwise, you might want to wait for buckling spring Mighty Mouse, which is not out yet, but was being discussed here

[alpslover]

The only membrane keyboard though that uses a mechanical mechanism is the IBM model M.

acer keyboards which use acer keyswitches (the ones that look like alps switches) also fall under this category.  there may be other obscure ones as well.

[alpslover]

Is there a difference between "membrane" and "rubber dome" technology or are they just different ways of saying the same thing?  I've seen rubber mats in small devices like remote controls that work on the same prinicipal, is that what is meant by "membrane"?  

they're not technically the same thing.  membrane is a type of switch (typically two layers of traces drawn with conductive ink separated by a middle layer which keeps the switches open until you press down on the membrane), and you can have a keyboard that is just a membrane (e.g. atari 400, timex 1000, microwave ovens).  whereas rubber dome just means the keyboard has rubber domes underneath the keys.  the rubber domes themselves may or may not be part of the actual electrical switching.  on some keyboards the domes are used solely as springs, on others there are conductive pads on the other side of the top parts of the domes which bridge traces on the board beneath when the domes are pressed, thereby making the domes a part of the switching mechanism.

but to make things easy, we often use the terms interchangeably.

[IBI]

I've just bought a Model M this week which I assume is roughly the same size as the cherry and it's nowhere near as big as I was expecting. Compared to my MS internet keyboard (without the rest),

http://www.s2.com.br/s2arquivos/361/Imagens/555Image.jpg

It's the same height and about a centimeter wider at each end. It is a lot thicker at the back but is thickness really a problem? I find the size reassuring. It's probably's not considered stylish at the moment though, especially the side profile.

For stylish keyboards how about the Das Keyboard II. It's supposed to be a well built keyboard, it's a moderate size and it's availible in a UK layout. The only problem is that it doesn't have any lables on the keys, I guess you're probably a good enough typist not to need them but it might be a problem if anyone else is going to use the keyboard.

There's also the SteelSeries 7G. It's not quite out yet and the pre-orders here as for the US layout but if you're not in a hurry it might come out in a UK layout.

What do you feel about the smaller laptop-style keyboards with 84ish keys that cluster the extra around the alphabet block? Something like the G84-4100: http://www.cherrycorp.com/english/keyboards/Industrial/4100/index.htm

As for remapping the keys then this tool sounds like a pretty close match for what you want:

http://www.microsoft.com/globaldev/tools/msklc.mspx

If you do get it working then you might want to add the PC version of the matias tactile pro 2.0 to your list as it's pretty stylish

EDIT: I'm not sure what you feel about second hand keyboards but I've just got my black Dell AT102W up and running, it's quite a nice looking keyboard. It does have the large 'header' but that's part of the design rather than anything functional, there's nothing in it but air. It's got alps switches so the keys should be reliable. The quality is excellent, it's perhaps marginally heavier than is perfect but the plastic is good quality and has very little flex in it. Most of the keys aren't clicky and are much like those of a harder membrane keyboard, although the difference in sounds that spacebar, backspace and enter make are more pronounced than on a normal keyboard, with the spacebar sounding rather chirpy and backspace and enter making a definite click. (which also applies to the enter on the numpad).

EDIT2: One of the downsides to my black dell is that it's got a couple of white stains on it, I don't know if this is a property of it's material though or just the environment it's been in before I bought it. The other downside is that the keys are difficult to get off so if you want to take them off and clean it regularly it might not be for you.

EDIT3: There's what looks like a white AT102W brand new in box on ebay here. dw_junon posted some pictures of his white one in the keyboard pics thread.

[Ulysses31]

Thanks for all the great responses.  The Model M is tempting but as criminal as this may sound i'm quite used to my Windows key.  It's not such a big deal though as I only use a couple of the Windows shortcuts.  It's funny because when I was a kid at school, every 286/386 PC had one of these keyboards and noone even blinked.  I only started to apreciate IBM workmanship and design when they started including awful spongy-buttoned keyboards with the newly upgraded systems in high-school and college.

Thickness doesn't really matter to me, only the thickness of the frame.  I am planning on getting a tablet at some point and would like to make efficient use of the space I have.

The DAS Keyboard II is an interesting option, and I can touch type but not brilliantly.  That, and my 3D work requires the use of many keyboard shortcuts that vary between different applications; I sometimes hit the wrong keys when i'm not looking and without labels i'd be flummoxed.  The Steelseries 7G looks gorgeous and as compact as a Filco but the price is significantly higher than mechanical Cherry keyboards.  As attractive as it is, I don't think looks alone could justify paying twice as much.  This is why I find it frustrating that natives of Japan and Taiwan can get great keyboards for a reasonable price.  The Tactile Pro looks good too, though i'm not a fan of the clear frame.  It looks like it was designed for those old cube-shaped Macintosh machines.  Samsung make a Pleomax rip-off of this design.  

That keyboard remapping utility seems perfect, i've already downloaded it.  I could remap a couple of keys to replace the "missing" ones and it would only take me a week or two to get used to the American layout.

I'm not averse to buying second-hand but you'd have to inform me of how old is "too-old".  I'm just curious but how hard do you have to hit the keys on that Dell of yours?  One of the things that puts me off about recent Logitech rubber-dome keyboards is the stiffness of the keys - it almost feels like the buttons are seizing rather than sliding smoothly in their sockets.  That and the plastic keytops feel cheap and light, like they are made from some kind of recycled low-density plastic.  It's hard to explain but when you tap them lightly they feel a bit hollow.

Could I also ask how noisy these mechanical keyboards are compared to a rubber-dome type?  When I type most of the noise comes from the keycap bottoming out and from large or wide keys like the space bar that have additional metal rods underneath to keep them level.  It has a strangely pleasant slight rattle to it very much like the sound on an old-fashioned typewriter.

Again, thanks for all the replies to my pedantic posts.  It's nice to find a forum where people really care about these issues.  To me, these details are important.  I've seen so many forums where supposedly informed computer users seem happy with a $3 keyboard and mouse and slag off anyone who isn't so blase about it.  I feel that since you interact with your computer through the keyboard, mouse and monitor, that you should give careful consideration to the choices you make for these peripherals.

EDIT: BTW has anyone here ever tried the Cherry Raptor K1 gaming keyboard?  Apparently the K1 is a gaming variant of the Cherry G81-1800.  It's compact enough and has individual FTSC switches "with membrane contacts".  The K1 has black MX switches from what images i've seen.  I think the G80-1800 is the one with mechanical switches.

[dw_junon]

Hi,

Keyboard touch is a pretty tricky preference to pin down; when one is aware of what's available as you evidently are, it's very hard to find that one perfect answer (and stick with it).  That said, there's no reason why you can't take a practical approach.

The Cherry is the only 'board springs (ha, pun not intended) to my mind that you can buy in the UK with the layout and clicky keys, but yes, remapping is always a possibility if you're fine with the actual keys and the legends.

In addition to the suggestion of the revised "Mighty Mouse", are you aware of the Unicomp Endurapro [click the picture for a big one]?  It's a reduced size design over the 101/2 "Model M" and has the Windows keys, and Trackpoint.  It does come in black, though IIRC Unicomp don't want to manufacture black keycaps (or is it just black keycaps with legends?...) due to cost, so you get metallic grey in such case.  Alternatively they also do the more traditional case in UK layout with or without Windows keys.

I understand Die Tastatur II is essentially a rebranded G80-3000, and the earlier version was the rubber dome Keytronic Model M lookalike.

Age isn't necessarily an issue; IBM bucklers tend to be made of lasting materials and so if not abused remain good cosmetically and practically for some time.  Other manufacturers  vary; strictly cosmetically Cherrys generally age reasonably, Dell AT10x keycaps fade before the case does; many clone 'boards fade badly.  Obviously, black is ideal in this case...

With regard to switch age, on my AT102W which evidently had heavy use [shiny keys, another thing to watch out for], the ALPS are generally consistent but a few keys do feel different; on my more lightly-used ALPS 'boards there is no distinction.  You definitely don't have to hit the keys any harder though, if anything those that are worn are softer.  Again, IBM 'boards tend to age well and individual assemblies are easier to source than most ALPS switches.  Cherry switches I don't have enough examples of to be certain.  The action in good rubber dome 'boards can last very well, quite possibly better than some keyswitches.

All keyswitches will make some additional noise over rubber dome 'boards, though far from all are designed to click.  The quietest are probably low-profile scissor switch types, while I recall lore of exceptionally loud switches from Scarry-Garcia the loudest I could relate to is a 122 key Model F (at least, if you get same resonance you do as with a 122 key Model M in that same housing), plus you could add an electronic click...  Now to persuade the kbdbabel guy to make these a priority...

Definitely beginning to ramble, so I'll leave it there for now.

[Mikecase00]

You want a Unicomp Customizer 104 (http://pckeyboards.stores.yahoo.net/customizer.html)  It  is basically a brand new Model M with Windows keys.  

As far as buying second hand goes, many of the older mechanical switch keyboards are VERY durable, so as long as the overall condition is good they should still have many years of service left in them.  I'm typing this on a Model M that's about 17 years old and has seen constant full time programming use for the last eight years.  It shows no signs of slowing down.

Mechanical switch keyboards are noisier than most rubber dome boards.  IMHO I like that though.  It makes it easier to type fast when you hear the click of each key actuation.

[xsphat]

I'm typing this on a Model M that's about 17 years old and has seen constant full time programming use for the last eight years.  It shows no signs of slowing down.

That's half the reason I like these things; the other half is how they feel. My first mechanical after the flood of membrane craptastic 'boards that have dominated this century so far is a 20 year old Apple keyboard with Alps sliders. That thing is still sitting close to me and I still do use it, rarely, so it could last another 20 years (in theory).

[dw_junon]

EDIT3: There's what looks like a white AT102W brand new in box on ebay here.

Hey, great find.  Now that one actually is white.

[Whiskey in the Jar-o]

they're not technically the same thing.  membrane is a type of switch (typically two layers of traces drawn with conductive ink separated by a middle layer which keeps the switches open until you press down on the membrane), and you can have a keyboard that is just a membrane (e.g. atari 400, timex 1000, microwave ovens).  whereas rubber dome just means the keyboard has rubber domes underneath the keys.  the rubber domes themselves may or may not be part of the actual electrical switching.  on some keyboards the domes are used solely as springs, on others there are conductive pads on the other side of the top parts of the domes which bridge traces on the board beneath when the domes are pressed, thereby making the domes a part of the switching mechanism.

but to make things easy, we often use the terms interchangeably.

I'd say that the vast majority of "membrane" keyboards these days use rubber domes purely as springs.

[Whiskey in the Jar-o]

The 7G, 6G and the K1 all use linear (black) Cherry MX switches.  Though it's not quite so clear cut.

[Ulysses31]

This Raptor K1 has browns?  

http://www.hexus.net/content/item.php?item=1064

Most people here seem to prefer the browns or the blues.  What does the "linear" action of the black switches mean in practice?  A smooth constant motion of the key with no sudden movement after a certain pressure threshold is exceeded?

[fkeidjn]

Since the browns are supposedly out of production, it's likely that the Raptor K1 has black Cherries.  The one in that link was probably special-ordered.

I reckon though that the production of the brown Cherries are relocated to Taiwan for the Asian computer companies (Filco, KBTalking, etc).

[IBI]

Thanks for all the great responses.  The Model M is tempting but as criminal as this may sound i'm quite used to my Windows key.  It's not such a big deal though as I only use a couple of the Windows shortcuts.  It's funny because when I was a kid at school, every 286/386 PC had one of these keyboards and noone even blinked.  I only started to apreciate IBM workmanship and design when they started including awful spongy-buttoned keyboards with the newly upgraded systems in high-school and college.

I'd agree with you there, winkey+d is dead useful. As mentioned unicomp do a brand new UK layout model M with windows keys. They're US based so I'd imagine postage is pretty expensive but as the last two second hand model Ms on ebay sold for £40(the one I got) and £52 it's probably not that much of a premium.

Thickness doesn't really matter to me, only the thickness of the frame.  I am planning on getting a tablet at some point and would like to make efficient use of the space I have.

I'm not quite sure which frame you're refering to here?

I'm just curious but how hard do you have to hit the keys on that Dell of yours?  One of the things that puts me off about recent Logitech rubber-dome keyboards is the stiffness of the keys - it almost feels like the buttons are seizing rather than sliding smoothly in their sockets.  That and the plastic keytops feel cheap and light, like they are made from some kind of recycled low-density plastic.  It's hard to explain but when you tap them lightly they feel a bit hollow.

Put it this way: My phone is a samsung X830 which according to the specs weighs 72g. I can just about balance it on the enter switch of my dell without it depressing, trying to do the same on my model M, MS internet keyboard or soft gateway 2000 branded keyboard does cause the enter key to depress.

So it does have a fair bit of resistance behind the keys. They go down smoothly though and you don't really notice the difference when typing quickly.

Could I also ask how noisy these mechanical keyboards are compared to a rubber-dome type?  When I type most of the noise comes from the keycap bottoming out and from large or wide keys like the space bar that have additional metal rods underneath to keep them level.  It has a strangely pleasant slight rattle to it very much like the sound on an old-fashioned typewriter.

For noise you're not going to beat a rubber dome board specifically designed to be quiet. I don't know about other mechanical boards but with the dell and the ibm they are slightly but noticably noisier than the two dome boards I've got, although there's much less noise from bottoming out. The dell actually seems to generate most of it's noise when you take your fingers off the keys and they come back up.

If you want strange rattling though, a model M really can't be beaten. As well as the usual plastic it's got a metallic component to the sound and spacebar that makes a much deeper sound. It does sound much like a typewriter and slightly like some steam powered victorian card punch.

Again, thanks for all the replies to my pedantic posts.  It's nice to find a forum where people really care about these issues.  To me, these details are important.  I've seen so many forums where supposedly informed computer users seem happy with a $3 keyboard and mouse and slag off anyone who isn't so blase about it.  I feel that since you interact with your computer through the keyboard, mouse and monitor, that you should give careful consideration to the choices you make for these peripherals.

When the companies aren't making them and the stores don't have them for sale (let alone on display) then it's understandable that a lot of people are just going to stay with the same old technology rather than looking for alternatives. Mind you, with LCD monitors at the moment there don't seem to be any really good ones below £500, they all seem to have some fault or other.

I've got my keyboard sorted now. I'd have probably have bought a new mechanical keyboard if I'd known what they were like at the start. Now that, I've bought a second-hand model M I can't see that a new keyboard is going to offer that much more to me more to warrant spending an extra £75 on one, that I could be spending to try and find a comfortable mouse (if such a thing exists).

[Whiskey in the Jar-o]

Since the browns are supposedly out of production, it's likely that the Raptor K1 has black Cherries.  The one in that link was probably special-ordered.

Really?  AFAIK, the Kinesis Advantage and the Maltron use browns.  What will they be using now?  Surely, not blacks in an ergonomic keyboard?  (Similarly, I wonder what Datadesk will be using in their new Smarboards.  I know they used Alps, though it's obviously not an option any more).

[Nonmouse]

Really?  AFAIK, the Kinesis Advantage and the Maltron use browns.  What will they be using now?  Surely, not blacks in an ergonomic keyboard?  (Similarly, I wonder what Datadesk will be using in their new Smarboards.  I know they used Alps, though it's obviously not an option any more).

They're still referred to on the German cherry site (see the force/travel diagrams on pg 2), but the American site only lists three options.  Maybe Amis don't deserve Tea Axis switches?  o.O

[fkeidjn]

Really?  AFAIK, the Kinesis Advantage and the Maltron use browns.  What will they be using now?  Surely, not blacks in an ergonomic keyboard?  (Similarly, I wonder what Datadesk will be using in their new Smarboards.  I know they used Alps, though it's obviously not an option any more).

That's what Loree from DataCal told me.  Maybe Cherry really doesn't want us Americans to have good stuff.  I don't know what the truth is about the fate of the brown Cherries.  Maybe it's only available for some keyboard companies?

Black Cherries can't be on an ergonomic keyboard because the force required to press down a back Cherry feels like it requires more force than a brown one.