Help me understand why HHKB's layout is often raved about?

[Bludude4]

If those are the main reasons why HHKB's layout is so raved about, then I guess it's just not as compelling to me, since having Backspace so close to the Enter key is actually kind of dangerous (such as while typing a message/text discussing a serious matter, you try to edit something you typed while being emotional but really shouldn't say, but hitting enter instead of Backspace).

That doesn't happen though.  How often are you hitting \ instead of enter?  How often are you hitting enter when you intend to hit \?  You don't..Or when you tab, are you hitting caps lock? 

I do like your use of IJKL for the arrow keys and the FN layer..that is where I'd put it..just makes sense to use FN on your left hand and not have to move anywhere to do arrow keys....but I can see the logic in the way it is for the HHKB as well..

I can't tell you how many times I have sent someone a message that went along the lines of "Hey can you help me with this\"

[jacobolus]

I can't tell you how many times I have sent someone a message that went along the lines of "Hey can you help me with this\"

I think this is mainly a problem with people coming from an ISO or L-shaped-enter layout.

[Keybatant]

However, when coding, the navigation cluster of a TKL is still more comfortable for me.

I guess it has to do with the extra mental work of thinking about the keyboard layout. It disturbs me, and eventually the economy of movements does not translate to more productivity for me.

In any case, there is nothing I find superior about the HHKB over for example the Poker X or Poker 2 or the FC660C.

The default layout is difficult for me to use because of the Fn-K problem, and this thread is specifically about the HHKB layout. I think I have explained why I don't like it.

I get your point. It reminds me, why when siting on hhkb sometimes I prefer sublime over vim. Otherwise more than half of my brain is busy computing layouts, shortcuts, plugins than actual code itself
But still, I like it

[Lunatique]

"Conventional" (pianoroll-sequencer) DAWs only became the standard recently because nobody wanted to learn how to use a tracker. The main downsides are that they are a slave to the mouse (therefore much slower than trackers) and you generally can't see the notes of more than one channel at once. The only upside that they have on trackers is that they are generally easier to learn. What would take a proficient pianoroll-sequencer user an hour generally takes me 10 minutes in a tracker. Coming back to the hhkb, those speed gains would be lost by needing to use FN to access the arrow keys and insert.

also, just because I don't want to drop the sunvox thing

More

sunvox on ios and android is for people who use trackers already and are in a situation where they cannot access their PC anymore. It is, by far, the most inferior version of the tracker, but it's not meant to be good. It's meant to give people stuck on mobile something other than MilkyTracker, which is an exact clone of FTII (which, by the way, was released in the 90's). It is for people like my close friend who originally showed me Renoise and Sunvox (famitracker was my first tracker but I thought it was the only tracker for a long time), he's bedridden by "something" causing extreme fatigue, along with early-onset arthritis in a fair amount of his joints. Don't reply to anything about him if you quote this.

My first experience with trackers was Buzz, and then Renoise. I just didn't warm up to either, and prefer the DAW sequencer approach, which feels more intuitive to me. I started out a keyboard player, so the pianoroll is much more intuitive to me visually than the spreadsheet look of trackers. And although some trackers have pianoroll implemented, there are other issues that just don't mesh well with pro audio standards/workflow. When/if I run into a problem,I can't exactly go to my composer colleagues and ask for tips, since none of them are using trackers--they are all using industry standard DAW. And since most tracker users aren't professional composers doing orchestral scores (it's mostly used for electronic music), they won't be able to help with specific issues I would need help with, such as running into problems when using high-end orchestral libraries inside a tracker.

Anyway, it's just horses for courses; different needs, different preferences. I try everything and then stick to what works best for me. with DAW's, I started with Studio Vision, then Cubase, then Sonar, and have played around with various other popular or obscure ones over the last 20 years or so. These days, they copy each others' features so much that you can pretty much pick any of the big DAW's and have a similar workflow. I stick with Sonar now because I'm most familiar with it.

At the end of the day, it's the music you make that matters, just like with all the keyboard discussions and debates, what really matters in the end is what you actually write/code/play with the keyboards. Someone can talk until blue in the face about keyboards, but if the keyboards are only being used for meaningless things, then does it ultimately matter? But if someone is using the cheapest membrane keyboard on the market, yet he's writing the next Great American Novel that will transform the literary landscape of the 21st century, then who cares what keyboard he's using?

[danwomansan]

they won't be able to help with specific issues I would need help with, such as running into problems when using high-end orchestral libraries inside a tracker.

False, botb (a loose chipscene community based around competition that is mostly full of people who do everything, and not just chip stuff) is full of people that and more. Most tracker users I know are talented with synthesis and can make any realistic-sounding instrument with the synth of their choice, and a lot make rock or modern orchestral music or metal or funk or jazz on the side of (or in) competition to others.

On top of that, instrument loading in renoise should be pretty much the same as in any other modern DAW, as Renoise is similar to them in every way except for its tracker interface, so the thing about not being able to go to tracker musicians for help is pretty much false.

And, there are no specific problems you might run into with any sample library in a tracker (save for non-mainstream trackers like milkytracker, or deflemask [everyone hates deflemask anyways], or modplug).

The only valid argument against usage of trackers in general, thanks to the existence of Sunvox and Renoise, is that you find the tracker matrix confusing/don't like the tracker matrix, which is completely understandable as it takes a fair amount of learning to be able to read and use it efficiently, and can be an eyesore if you're not used to it.

[Macsmasher]

I don't think the fn layer is that fantastic...on the plus side, it is designed to be used strictly with just one hand (right) and the placement of the arrows, etc, make sense if you're using the fn with your right pinky...It is a good layout but isn't perfect...

I've had this same thinking over the last 1.5 years. And I've become very comfortable just using my right hand only. However about a month ago, I gave up the left Win key and made it a Fn key. I have to say, I'm liking it a lot. I miss the lost Win key because of the many keyboard shortcuts I use. But for text navigation...within code for example...is awesome now. My left thumb slides down to the Fn key. Index finger operates Shift, middle finger the Ctrl key (assuming you have Ctrl on home row). My right hand stays on home row operating arrows, home, end, etc. Navigating, highlighting, copy/cut, paste functions are a lot more efficient, for me anyway. I'm now using my HHKB for coding more than my TKL boards.

I still tend to use right hand only for swapping windows between displays or docking them on a display. But for me, this little change has made a huge difference in the usability of my HHKB. I recommend giving it a try.

Of course, ultimately it comes down to personal preference. But I think many users who dislike or give up on the HHKB is simply because they haven't tried other dip switch options. One seemingly little change can make a huge difference.

[jacobolus]

I can't exactly go to my composer colleagues and ask for tips, since none of them are using trackers--they are all using industry standard DAW. And since most tracker users aren't professional composers doing orchestral scores (it's mostly used for electronic music), they won't be able to help with specific issues I would need help with, such as running into problems when using high-end orchestral libraries inside a tracker.

False, botb (a loose chipscene community [...]) is full of people that and more.

WTF? The guy says “my buddies can’t help me with that because they don’t know it”, and you say “false” and then recommend he just gets different buddies. Ditch the condescending and aggressive tone, it’s totally unhelpful.

Anyway, perhaps you two should start a separate thread somewhere about user interfaces of of trackers vs. DAWs. It’s mostly off topic here. (And pissing contests about the musical skills of various online communities that no one else here knows or cares about are definitely off topic.)

[danwomansan]

Well, I tend to misread things a lot but I WAS NOT saying for lunatique to get different friends. I was responding to "And since most tracker users aren't professional composers doing orchestral scores (it's mostly used for electronic music), they won't be able to help with specific issues I would need help with, such as running into problems when using high-end orchestral libraries inside a tracker."

So nice job putting words in my mouth, I guess.

[ideus]

It is suppose this thread is within the keyboards sub-forum, now as usual it has derailed into expressions of hard feelings and non-sense, and where are the keyboard's facts and data now?... well done GH-ers.

[danwomansan]

yeah, I'm sorry for derailing the thread and such, I can't let utterly false things be said about my hobby and job. Go back to talking about the hhkb, I've already said what I wanted to about this and ask that lunatique pursues me by PM if he has any more to say about it.

[Lunatique]

yeah, I'm sorry for derailing the thread and such, I can't let utterly false things be said about my hobby and job. Go back to talking about the hhkb, I've already said what I wanted to about this and ask that lunatique pursues me by PM if he has any more to say about it.

Yeah, sorry about getting OT. Music is one of my life's biggest passions (along with writing, film/TV, photography, and games), so when the topic comes up it's hard to stop.

Anyway, I have no dog in any fight with music since I compose and love all styles--from traditional to cutting-edge (I played in an industrial band, wrote songs for mainstream popstars, and compose scores for film/games). As for my comments regarding trackers, it's simply that the composers I know working in film/TV/games aren't using trackers, that's all--it's got nothing to do with whether trackers are any good or if people using it can or can't compose certain types of music. It's just a matter of industry standards, like how Photoshop is the industry standard, but it's not the only software that visual artists use.

Anyway, back to HHKB and layouts.

I'm curious about how HHKB owners feel about spiceBar's SpaceFN layout, and using the spacebar as the Fn key and then being able to map anything you want to the home-row. Do any of you find that to be the preferable approach than what HHKB's offers? And how would you guys improve the SpaceFN layout (or my custom layout)? I guess depending on what you use the keyboard for, preferences can vary greatly, but I love different opinions because you never know when you'll pick up a really great idea from someone else's preference.

[Macsmasher]

Inverted T with IJKL makes the most sense to me, or any other similar arrangements like OKL:, ESDF, and WASD.

Agreed. I'm also a gamer, and it's natural movement for me. In fact, I game left mouse even though I'm right-handed so my WASD is already over there anyway. I really like this idea for arrow navigation. I could do it in my sleep.

[batfink]

Having Control in the place of CapsLock is all well and good, but I don't really see what the significance is, given that it's very trivial to achieve in software. I get that it's a bit more elegant to have a hardware solution, but still, it seems to me that it's not a *very* big deal since it's something that any keyboard can support.

Likewise with the Fn layer. In fact I have remapped my CapsLock to a Fn layer - holding it gives me the navigation cluster on my right-hand homekey area, etc. It is a nice feature indeed and I now use it all the time. But the point is anyone can have these kinds of features if they can be bothered to configure them!!

[rowdy]

Having Control in the place of CapsLock is all well and good, but I don't really see what the big deal is, given that it's very trivial to achieve in software. I get that it's a bit more elegant to have a hardware solution, but still, it seems to me that it's not a *very* big deal since it's something that any keyboard can support.

As a default hardware solution

[SpAmRaY]

It is suppose this thread is within the keyboards sub-forum, now as usual it has derailed into expressions of hard feelings and non-sense, and where are the keyboard's facts and data now?... well done GH-ers.

In most web browsers there is this button on the top right with an 'X' on it feel free to click it at any time.

[hwood34]

It is suppose this thread is within the keyboards sub-forum, now as usual it has derailed into expressions of hard feelings and non-sense, and where are the keyboard's facts and data now?... well done GH-ers.

um, nope most people here are still talking about the HHKB layout in relation to real world issues, like different softwares.

[Sturmfrau]

I have studied the HHKB layout numerous times since people keep talking about it (mostly rave about it, as opposed to the fewer number of people disliking it), and I just can't figure out what makes it superior to other compact-form keyboard layouts (such as the Leopold FC660C, Filco Minila, Ducky Mini, KBT PURE, etc). Can the pro-HHKB gang help me understand what makes the HHKB layout more efficient/convenient/usable than the other keyboards that rely on Fn layer for the navigation cluster?

Caps Lock is useless but the position of the key is optimal for Control commands and the HHKB capitalizes upon this.

The backspace position on the HHKB is better than the typical position because it doesn't require you to stretch your hand, meaning your hands stay planted on the home row for a much, much longer time. This is not only more efficient, but it is much more comfortable in the long run.

The FN key is in a great position as well, and doesn't require leaving home row since it is reachable by the right pinky without moving the wrist. If you have smallish hands and can't reach it with you pinky, it only requires a very slight movement to reach it. Again this adds to efficiency and comfort compared to an FN key on the bottom row.

The FN layer is phenomenal as well. It might take a bit of time to get used to... but the FN-Arrow diamond, home, end, pg up, pg dn, etc are super accessible and once they become second nature, you realize that every other non-fully programmable 60% layout is inherently flawed and inferior.

All this, coupled with Topre switches, really makes it, in my opinion, the best keyboard you can buy.

Plus, it's really a great looking keyboard 

This is the reason why I'm having a hard time using other keyboards now. I bring my HHKB everywhere I go where I need to use a computer. Cause if I don't, it's sure that I'll turn caps lock on and off a couple of times and whatever I type will have \\\\\\\ on it and then I'll give up and roll crying.