legend tactile.

[mike2h]

received my legend frost a couple of days ago. my first mechanincal kb!! & what a difference!!!! wished i would have made this move years ago:)
just an fyi, all my experince with kb's has been on various ms boards, several saitek, cpl of logitech, & the razer tarantula(the most expensive &the worst of the lot). so any reference on my part will be based on those experiences.
the build quality is excellent- beyond anything in my experience & has a very sturdy feel. i persoanlly like the font(iknow there are quite few that dont) it is clear & easy to read. especially for an old fart who is losing his close up vision;) the back lighting is the best i have ever seen by far & the adjustments give u any possible level u could need.
the switches are definetly white, i know there have been suggestions that they are clear, but it just isnt so. i have pulled 4 different keys & inspected them under flouresent light & a torch(with my glasses on lol) & there is no way they could be construed as 'clear'.
when i took it out of the box i put it on my lap & started getting a 'feel' for the keys while watching tv. irritated my wife a bit so i turned up the volume. while the 'bump' was what i consider lite, it was deinetly noticable-jsut enough to get your attention without impeding the stroke in anyway.
the difference was very pronounced over what i am used to. very. i now know what u guys are talking about when you say keys are spongy, etc when referring to mainstream boards. kinda makes you feel a little dirty using them lol.
i am very impressed with feel/action of the keys & am really looking forward to getting a typing prog(apparently my wife gave away the mavis prog i purchased a few months ago...) so i can actually type with more than 2 fingers & not have to stare at the kb. i really believe correct typing on that kb will reduce my pain level to.
i made this purchase with a great deal of trepidation, $195(incl ship) is a lot of $$ for a kb, & i was really worried about what i was going to get(especially after the $100+ razer fiasco). i already consider it money well spent & know time will just reaffirm that opinion.
wanted to thank the forum as a whole for all the great info here, never could have made this step without all that i learned from lurking around here. really appreciate all the work you guys have put into this site !
now i have to figure out what to get my wife...

just be clear, i really, REALLY, like the deck legend frost kb & the action of the switches & the feel of the keys. guess i can use whatever kb i figure out for my wife as another way to get more reference for what is good/not so good.

[lal]

Glad you like your first mechanical board, mike!  But $195?! That is much.  Would be nice to see some pics of the board and the switches if it's at all possible.

Wish I had a nice board where I am right now.  Have to type on laptop scissors *blargh*

[timw4mail]

The tactile bump on the whites is very noticeable, it has a nice "plateau," which makes it very easy to prevent bottoming out. The white switches are a nice compromise between higher force, tactility, and noise.

[mike2h]

lal- i know, the amount was scary for me to lol. - http://www.deckkeyboards.com/product_info.php?products_id=95  

tim thx for the reference on the bump. to me it feels lite so that should mean a cherry brown switch would be almost unoticeable. that will help me in deciding what to get my wife- though i dont think i will find any cherry brown boards in the price range im hoping to be in.
your comment on the compromise is exactly why i went with this switch:)

[itlnstln]

lal- i know, the amount was scary for me to lol. - http://www.deckkeyboards.com/product_info.php?products_id=95
 
tim thx for the reference on the bump. to me it feels lite so that should mean a cherry brown switch would be almost unoticeable. that will help me in deciding what to get my wife- though i dont think i will find any cherry brown boards in the price range im hoping to be in.
your comment on the compromise is exactly why i went with this switch:)

Compaq MX11800.  You can usually find them on eBay for (considerably) less than $50.  They have Cherry browns and are quite nice.  Sometimes, you can find them NIB for around $50.

[mike2h]

i thought about that, but when lost my job & had to go on ss i dumped my credit cards so no more paypal. & im not about to give those bozos access to my bank account:) so im limited to direct buy from a reputable online store.
ty for the rec though, it & the abs were kb's i was looking at, just not thrilled with the reported 'noise' the abs makes. the problems associated with abs should not effect her as she isa 35-40 wpm typer & not to big on gaming.

[itlnstln]

The only other choice would be the Cherry G80-3000 with browns from Datacal.com, but that would put you back in the $100 range. They're cheaper than the Filcos, but not by a whole lot. I have both, and I couldn't say one is really better than the other. I use the Filco primarily at work, because it's a little smaller.

[mike2h]

the cherry waslisted as $109 'on sale' for $97. filco is $104. from the pix the filco looks quite a bit smaller, at leas in in top to bottom dept. is that a true representation? cause that would make the filco an easy choice.
do u have opinion on build quality/overall durability?

[timw4mail]

the cherry waslisted as $109 'on sale' for $97. filco is $104. from the pix the filco looks quite a bit smaller, at leas in in top to bottom dept. is that a true representation? cause that would make the filco an easy choice.
do u have pref/opinion on build quality? especially the keys.

Cherry seems to have better keys, but Filco has a better build quality.

[itlnstln]

Cherry seems to have better keys, but Filco has a better build quality.

I wouldn't say one is better than the other; they are different.  The Filco is quite a bit smaller.  The Cherry has PCB-mounted switches while the Filco is plate-mounted.  They definitely feel different from one another, and the Filco is heavier (probably due to the plate, but I wouldn't say one is better built.  And, yes, Cherry does have better caps.

[mike2h]

ok size does matter;). so that puts filco in lead(assuming i can come up with that much). can u pls define 'feel different'?
the caps thing- are they just more durable or do they have a better feel to them. or both.
bty, thx for your feedback guys, really helps me with making an informed choice. and i actually find this all very interesting. if i had the $$ i could see me with 4-5 kb's within the next cpl of years. lol.

[itlnstln]

The Cherry, IMO, feels more tactile and it has a softer landing than the Filco.  The plate, IMO, takes away from the nuances of the Cherry brown which is a pretty light switch to begin with.  Personally, I like the feel of the Cherry better than the Filco.  The Filco does have the size advantage, though, and fits on the desk better than the Cherry which, IMO, is unnecessarily large (look at the G80-1800 for the ultimate Cherry layout, which is, unfortunately unavailable in the US). The Filco is also much prettier to look at, available in more varieties and has more accessories should you want them.
 
As far as keycaps go, Cherry uses POM plastic on their black, laser-etched keycaps (the whites use PBT, but you can't get those in the US, we only get black here).  POM is more durable than ABS, which is what the Filcos use.  My Filco keys show wear (go shiny) in just a few weeks of use, and I am very meticulous in having clean hands when I type.  I have had my Cherry just as long as my Filco, and my keycaps have yet to show wear.  The Cherry keycaps are also laser-etched, so the letters are not going to wear off.  The Filco legends are silkscreened on the caps, and folks here have reported them starting to fade over time (I have not seen this yet, but I could see where this is certainly possible).
 
In any case, you are going to get one of the best keyboards you will ever own either way you go.  I have had both 'boards since about March, and to this day, I rotate them regularly as I can't decide which one I like better.

[timw4mail]

if i had the $$ i could see me with 4-5 kb's within the next cpl of years. lol.

Only 4 or 5?

In all seriousness, as far as the keys go, better wear, and better feel for Cherry. Cherry uses PBT or POM plastic for their keycaps, whereas I think the Filco keys are ABS. Some Cherry keyboards have double-shot molded keys, some have lasered keys, and some are just pad printed.

The problem with Cherry is that there are so many keyboard variations.



The Compaq MX-11800 is also made by Cherry, and has white PBT keycaps.

[mike2h]

just wanted to add this as i find it a little disappointing for a kb this expensive- the usb connector isnt gold, just your standard whatever metal they use for these connectors. the minor benefits u get from gold plated connectors aside, simple asethetics dictate that a kb with its price should have golld usb connector. not a deal breaker by any stretch, just a little peeved.
anyway it will be a month or 2 before i can get her one so i will probably be back with more questions then- thx again guys.

[JBert]

I think the use of precious metal in the connector is overrated. After all, as long as the connector isn't oxidized, no harm should be done to the digital signal.
Besides, who says those "gold connectors" actually are gold and not some cheap brass coating?

I think most of the price goes to backlighting (all the keys need an extra LED), type of Cherry switch (blues in this case) and a marketing premium.

But let's not discuss price too much. After all, you do like the keyboard from what I gather.

[timw4mail]

I think the use of precious metal in the connector is overrated. After all, as long as the connector isn't oxidized, no harm should be done to the digital signal.
Besides, who says those "gold connectors" actually are gold and not some cheap brass coating?

I think most of the price goes to backlighting (all the keys need an extra LED), type of Cherry switch (blues in this case) and a marketing premium.

But let's not discuss price too much. After all, you do like the keyboard from what I gather.

Uh no, those are Cherry white switches.

[mike2h]

I think the use of precious metal in the connector is overrated. After all, as long as the connector isn't oxidized, no harm should be done to the digital signal.
Besides, who says those "gold connectors" actually are gold and not some cheap brass coating?

I think most of the price goes to backlighting (all the keys need an extra LED), type of Cherry switch (blues in this case) and a marketing premium.

But let's not discuss price too much. After all, you do like the keyboard from what I gather.

while i generally agree with you, as long as it is real gold the oxidation factor is pretty much non existent & conductivity is beter. the main reason i brought it up though is that a kb this expensive should have gold plating by default imo.
you are correct about the marketing premium however you are also paying for top ofthe line construction/materials throughout the board. the only thing im not sure of is what the key are made of. the case is polycarbonate, the keys are sublimated 2 piece whatever. i would imagine that their choice of lettering proccess might dictate the type of plastic used but really dont know.
what i did get was a very well built board that looks very nice, has the best back lighting i have ever seen, keys were the lettering basically cant wear of & white mech switches.
i dont know what they pay for the switches & the leds, but my bet is that they suck up a nice chunk of that high price by themselves.
anyway, im very happy with it, & now have to figure out what to get the wifey:)

[itlnstln]

The bottom line is if you really like your keyboard, then it doesn't matter what you paid for it as long as you are able to enjoy it for years to come. Topre keyboards certainly don't come cheap, but just about any Topre user will tell you that they love their 'boards and they often buy more than one. Hell, look at webwit. He has paid upwards of $1000 for some of his input devices, and he loves them all (the expensive ones, that is, even though the Fujitsu Peerless will always be at the top of his list).

[timw4mail]

while i generally agree with you, as long as it is reall gold, the oxidation factor is pretty much non existent & conductivity is beter. the main reason i brought it up though is that a kb this expensive should have gold plating by default imo.
you are correct about the marketing premium however you are also paying for top ofthe line construction/materials throughout the board. the only thing im not sure of iswhat the key are made of. the case is polycarbonate, the keys are sublimated 2 peice whatever. i would imagine that their choice of lettering proccess might dictate the type of plastic used but really dont know.
what i did get was a very well built board that looks very nice, has the best back lighting i have ever seen, keys were the lettering basically cant wear of & white mech switches.
 they are my first mech switch, i really do like the way they feel/function.
i dont know what they pay for the switches & the leds, but my bet is that they suck up a nice chunk of that high price by themselves.
anyway, im very happy with it, & now have to figure out what to get the wifey:)

On the Deck, the switches are two-shot molded, I think, Not dye sublimated.

[mike2h]

On the Deck, the switches are two-shot molded, I think, Not dye sublimated.

from deck- "NEVER! Characters can't chip off the key caps or wear down because we use a sublimated negative printing process which drives the ink into the plastic keycaps at 525°F. This means permanent printing from the inside out, not just on the top, and gives the letters a permanent place inside the plastic."

dont know if that proccess determines what type of plastic is used, but not worried about letter wear:)

[talis]

while i generally agree with you, as long as it is real gold the oxidation factor is pretty much non existent & conductivity is beter.

The conductivity is better in a few um thick area of what's ultimately a 2+m long conduction path.   As long as you plug and unplug the connector every 3 or 4 years, oxidization on non-plated contacts is rarely an issue (and if it ever becomes an issue, the physical abrasion caused by simply re-plugging the connector is usually enough to fix it).

IMO except in places that are hard to access, in very harsh environments, or hard to re-plug (eg gold plated machined IC sockets) gold plating is highly over-rated.

[mike2h]

fair enough. but it still looks better

[itlnstln]

from deck- "NEVER! Characters can't chip off the key caps or wear down because we use a sublimated negative printing process which drives the ink into the plastic keycaps at 525°F. This means permanent printing from the inside out, not just on the top, and gives the letters a permanent place inside the plastic."
 
dont know if that proccess determines what type of plastic is used, but not worried about letter wear:)

Hmm. I could be totally wrong, but it sounds like Deck molds a clear key cap, then dye-sublimates the entire key minus the legend, leaving the legend clear for the backlight to shine through.
 
Calling DeckGuyAdam.  Could you give us more details?

[timw4mail]

Hmm. I could be totally wrong, but it sounds like Deck molds a clear key cap, then dye-sublimates the entire key minus the legend, leaving the legend clear for the backlight to shine through.
 
Calling DeckGuyAdam.  Could you give us more details?

I've seen the keys, and the bottom of the key actually has white, apparently opaque, plastic. It looks clear at the top, though. It would really hurt to look at the keys if the stems actually were transparent.

[Rajagra]

just wanted to add this as i find it a little disappointing for a kb this expensive- the usb connector isnt gold, just your standard whatever metal they use for these connectors.

Is it just the outer shield that is silver metal, or are the actual data pins also silver?

[mike2h]

Hmm. I could be totally wrong, but it sounds like Deck molds a clear key cap, then dye-sublimates the entire key minus the legend, leaving the legend clear for the backlight to shine through.
 
Calling DeckGuyAdam.  Could you give us more details?

here is a link to key pics- http://www.deckkeyboards.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=246

[timw4mail]

Okay, so apparently they are double-shot and dye-sublimated. Weird.

[mike2h]

Is it just the outer shield that is silver metal, or are the actual data pins also silver?

great question. took a look & the pins are gold. so ty for coming up with that. isnt the outer shell part of the circuit?
still think it would look better(no that u really ever see it after plug-in) with the outer being gold to.

[mike2h]

Okay, so apparently they are double-shot and dye-sublimated. Weird.

as i am not familar with any of this will you please explain?

Thanks for that link. That was interesting and pretty creative on Deck's part. There must be a limitation in the double shot process where they couldn't just use a single pass and let enough light through.

must have been a big difference tehn, when the lights are turned up all the way it is BRIGHT. i keep it at 3 during the day & 4 at night.
i would assume since they went to all that trouble that keys are made of a durable plastic.

[Rajagra]

great question. took a look & the pins are gold. so ty for coming up with that. isnt the outer shell part of the circuit?
still think it would look better(no that u really ever see it after plug-in) with the outer being gold to.

The outer shell connects to the cable's outer shielding. It protects against electrical noise from RF, but this can be seen as a low priority feature. The connection will work without it, whereas if any of the data lines don't connect the whole thing fails.

But you could certainly argue that if it is worth having shielding, then it's worth giving it the same treatment as the data lines.

[mike2h]

See the "All About Keys" wiki entry here.

lol. ty for the info.

[mike2h]

i guess ive carried some of my 'anal' wiring/cable habits from my home theater into my comps.
 i dont mind paying more for quality products, just have to be so careful about paying for a brand name & a run of the mill product.

[itlnstln]

I buy quality wire/cable and pay almost nothing for them: http://www.monoprice.com

[mike2h]

that stuf is pretty much what contractors use for general installation. good prices for what u get- as good as anything you would get out of radio shack & cheaper from the quick look i took. but definetly for the porpose i stated & for low end systems- wich is what 90% of people have.
good find, i have a couple of buds i will give that to.

[itlnstln]

that stuf is pretty much what contractors use for general installation. good prices for what u get- as good as anything you would get out of radio shack & cheaper from the quick look i took. but definetly for the porpose i stated & for low end systems- wich is what 90% of people have.
good find, i have a couple of buds i will give that to.

I have stuff from there that would kick the sh*t out of Monster, Kimber, et. al.  The bottom line is OFC copper is OFC copper.  You can buy all the high end stuff that you want, but component cables are RG5/6 whether you buy them from Monoprice or Monster.  When it comes to digital signals like HDMI, you either have a signal, or you don't, so you're wasting your money on anything more than what Monoprice offers, to be sure
 
That said, I have Monoprice 12 AWG speaker wire running my all-Def-Tech 5.1 speaker system, Monoprice optical cables running from my Dish box and Samsung BD player to my Yamaha Receiver (this is next to get upgraded to a Denon), and Monoprice HDMI cables running to my 61" Samsung TV (and a 33' Monoprice HDMI run to my Mits. PJ).
 
This is one good article (among many) at Audioholics on the topic: http://www.audioholics.com/education/cables/the-truth-about-interconnects-and-cables

[mike2h]

im sure your opinion is good for u & as far as most monster & kimber cable stuff goes u would be correct. especially for the price difference. your bottom line point is wrong there are many other factors including grounding, sheilding, what the cable 'adds' to the overall circuit, etc. copper isnt the only material used bty.
like i said for lower end & even mid-fi works fine. mostly.
i have done quite a bit of testing of cables/interconnects, including powered cables & solid silver cables. while there are sometimes definte differences in sound(of course lke any othe audio this is subjective as t owhat is good/bad), most of the time  the difference does not justify the cost. i would say this becomes more true the higher the cost. jmo.
i really dont think you are thinking in the same ballpark when i mentioned high end or even mid fi, sry if that sounds elitist lol. kinda like something i was complaining about with my first cpl of posts here. sry.
anyway, the real bottom line is that it works for you & your happy with it.
think this particular subject is way of topic;)
bty, give marantz a good look. basically wha tu have is one outfit making the base electronics for most of these guys. denon & marantz happen to be in thos group. marantz, imo does a better job of 'refining' their electronics & making them more musical imo. denon is bettter with the bells & whistles. not to say they are bad, just a suggestion:)

[quadibloc]

Thanks for that link.  That was interesting and pretty creative on Deck's part.  There must be a limitation in the double shot process where they couldn't just use a single pass and let enough light through.

Thinking about that, I wonder.

I don't actually think that's the issue at all. It's true that if one uses the kind of double-shot molding process that leads to stripes on the inside of the key, the light will be blocked, but the older process would seem to work. Yes, it's possible the molding conditions of double-shot molding could lead to irregularities and imperfections in a translucent plastic, but I don't think that's the issue.

Here's what I think it is: look at the "interesting" keycaps for Linux they have, for example. They want to be able to make all sorts of different legends for their keys in short production runs. That's what's incompatible with double-shot molding.

Having a single key assembly, independent of the legend, that is a standard part with a transparent single section doesn't place any limits on the variety of key legends you can offer.

[msiegel]

Thinking about that, I wonder.

I don't actually think that's the issue at all. It's true that if one uses the kind of double-shot molding process that leads to stripes on the inside of the key, the light will be blocked, but the older process would seem to work. Yes, it's possible the molding conditions of double-shot molding could lead to irregularities and imperfections in a translucent plastic, but I don't think that's the issue.

Here's what I think it is: look at the "interesting" keycaps for Linux they have, for example. They want to be able to make all sorts of different legends for their keys in short production runs. That's what's incompatible with double-shot molding.

Having a single key assembly, independent of the legend, that is a standard part with a transparent single section doesn't place any limits on the variety of key legends you can offer.

hey i wonder if it would be possible to manufacture all-transparent keycaps, then just paint the legends on the inside, followed by another layer of high-contrast color *on the inside*

[timw4mail]

Thinking about that, I wonder.

I don't actually think that's the issue at all. It's true that if one uses the kind of double-shot molding process that leads to stripes on the inside of the key, the light will be blocked, but the older process would seem to work. Yes, it's possible the molding conditions of double-shot molding could lead to irregularities and imperfections in a translucent plastic, but I don't think that's the issue.

Here's what I think it is: look at the "interesting" keycaps for Linux they have, for example. They want to be able to make all sorts of different legends for their keys in short production runs. That's what's incompatible with double-shot molding.

Having a single key assembly, independent of the legend, that is a standard part with a transparent single section doesn't place any limits on the variety of key legends you can offer.

Very good point. Although it would look a lot better if the whole top of the key were flush, rather than the raised legend.

[mike2h]

Very good point. Although it would look a lot better if the whole top of the key were flush, rather than the raised legend.

there are only 2 keys were you can actually feel the difference between the 2 peices - the far right enter & plus keys. otherwise every other key feels completely smooth.
 i assume that is what you are talking about when you say 'raised'?

[rdh]

Thanks for that link.  That was interesting and pretty creative on Deck's part.  There must be a limitation in the double shot process where they couldn't just use a single pass and let enough light through.

With this hybrid dual-shot + sublimation process, they don't have to create molds for each differently-lettered keycap.

My guess is that they didn't make the whole cap out of the translucent plastic because it's easier to do this than to dye all four sides black.

[rdh]

I keep seeing references to the Deck Legend's tactile switches as being white stem Cherry MXs, but the Deck site lists them as "MX1A-C1NW", which the wiki says are clear stem MXs.    

Is it just that the "clear" stem Cherry switches are hard to tell apart from the "white" stems?

(I haven't seen either kind myself.)

[mike2h]

nothing 'clear' about these, definetly white. just pulled another one to make sure. even shined alight on it from side & looked to see how translucent it was. 'tis still white
if these are 'clear', wonder what 'white' actually looks like. isthere any difference between the two that you or anybody else knows of? couldnt find anything definitive in the wicki.

[timw4mail]

I have no idea why they are called "clear". If they are "clear," I certainly have never seen even a picture of a "white" switch.

there are only 2 keys were you can actually feel the difference between the 2 peices - the far right enter & plus keys. otherwise every other key feels completely smooth.
 i assume that is what you are talking about when you say 'raised'?

Okay, maybe they just look raised.

[mike2h]

Okay, maybe they just look raised.

yeh, from some angles looking down(from my typing position the outline is barely noticable if at all) u can see the outline of the seperate peices, but the keys are very smooth to the the touch. with a slight hint of graininess;)
that or maybe that was early production & the proccess wasnt refined.

[keyb_gr]

Clears are not really clear in the literal sense, just a bit translucent. They're called like that because "real" white switches also exist (old Cherry and newer clones, both clicky).

[mech]

According the Cherry's current keyswitch catalog that I pulled from their site, the MX line has only these colors: black, brown, white, blue.  There's a grey and a green, but they are for space bar switches.  White == clear.  Unless you're talking about a potentially older model.

[itlnstln]

Whites were clicky, clears are not.  According to somebody here, Cherry was discontinuing the clears as a bulk part.  They were still going to make them for replacement parts, though.  It might be that people are moving more to lighter switches, so it seems like they are slowly phasing out the heavier ones (minus the specialty switches for the spacebars).  Even their latest switch, red, is a light switch a la the brown.

[timw4mail]

The clones are clearer than the "clears".

[mech]

This all seems pretty murky to me.