In order to keep another topic thread on-topic, I'm cutting and pasting Elrick's post here from the
Nuclear Data IC thread:
Elrick, I like you -- you bring a lot of enthusiasm to GH, but -- why? Why the animosity towards SP? Also, it irks me that you're implying that Matt's an SP shill when you say: "How unfortunate you seem to be the card carrying member for Signature Plastics. Still BunnyLake is the truly independent individual left here on Geekhack and I'm glad he hasn't taken anything from SP in promoting them on a consistent basis." Excuse my language, but that's a ****ty thing to say about a fellow forum member.
Umm I like you too but the issue here is
1) SP is fine as a private company that manufactures key-sets for everyone.
Agreed. So why would it be
bad for someone to recommend their involvement in a groupbuy?
2) Geekhack was set up as place to share common interests that include keyboards and key-caps (amongst other things) with no influence from any particular vendor.
I don't really see the relevance -- is SP forcing people to buy things they don't want to buy? Can you show me where they have negatively influenced a groupbuy? Because, I can name them in a lot of
positive groupbuy outcomes.
3)[/b] From this year alone 2014, I experienced this particular behaviour whereby Matt3o designs a key-set and it goes straight to SP vendor sale section almost immediately. Hence it becomes their property and interest.
Well, for one, that groupbuy was put in the SP Vendor section as per the rules. As for the ownership of a keycap set, I would imagine that the designer of the set is the 'owner' of the rights to that set -- and if that owner (Matteo in this case) decides go to SP, how does it become SP's property?
Where had the Group Buy gone? Because it no longer is in the public forum anymore and it seems that now quite possibly most Group Buys will disappear from that section into only one area - SP Vendor Section.
Ok, so you're afraid that SP will begin to dominate groupbuys? I still don't see why that's a problem -- a lot of groupbuys have been produced by SP and you've never been this scared. What's actually changed? Same GB organizers, for the most part, same producer, only the method of serving up kits and collecting money has changed. If you have issues with how their GB system is working, they seem very open to constructive criticism. But the people behind that new system are the same people who have (or should have) earned your trust by now.
4) If that is the result how can you not conclude that there has been some sort of collusion here because we are adults and not children to be treated with such contempt in trusting a single business entity to run all Group Buys and Distribution.
Collusion? Collusion is defined (roughly) as when producers get together and decide to reduce competition for mutual gain. For example, they might decide, secretly, that prices should be around a certain point, or that one company will dominate a certain geographical region, etc. I see no evidence of that at all. SP has run most GB's that I can name -- not all -- but most. I think that's because of their willingness to work with us, not collusion. It's been a good partnership for everyone.
Hence no input from anyone else is allowed.
Again, what? Where? GMK exists, and other keycap manufacturers -- you're free to make a keyset and have them produce it. But from what I've heard GMK has had very high MOQ (only just starting to lower it) and that's made it harder to work with them. Hey, maybe if they see SP's efforts they'll change their policy.
Usually in politics when someone participates in promoting a single business entity consistently, what would they be called by the media? Besides why would being a paid representative be so negative in the eyes of Geekhack here? We already have some vendors willing to sell direct to us here already and they make clear who they represent.
I'm having difficulty parsing your thoughts. Is that a statement or a question or a flourish... ? Are you claiming that Matteo is being paid to be a representative for SP, and/or is not being upfront about it? To be frank, I don't have an allergic reaction to corporations, so I don't care if he is being paid or not. Show me the keycap set -- if I like it (and the price) I'll buy it. Otherwise, there's no problem. Why would being a paid representative be viewed so negatively here on GH? I don't know -- too many community college communists are members? Nah, it's a small, highly vocal minority is my guess.
5) I'm not naive to think that money can't buy everything and I don't blame anyone benefiting directly from this but lets make it clear, that this is not like the old days when people ran Group Buys for fun and only wanted fellow geekhackers to benefit. But the loss of a Public Group Buy becomes another nail in the coffin of our heritage here. Maybe in the future you'll just have the Interests Section and that's it, because the Public Group Buy will be deleted and replaced by Signature Plastics Vendor Section ONLY.
Your fear is unjustified, Elrick. Our 'heritage' at GH is making cool **** that's never been seen before, and if SP's groupbuy software helps make that happen, then it deserves a place here. As for the "old days" -- running GB's seems to be a labor of love and great sacrifice, but I don't want to see fellow member 'sacrifice' -- I'm more than willing to pay a little more (or less!) and have them retain their salary and their sanity. If that means working more closely with a trusted vendor, I'm all for it. More keycaps, fewer economic martyrs.
6) Maybe that's what the future Geekhack forum admins want (pure speculation here) to become a shop front for SP, if that's the case then let it be, who am I to stop that from ever happening.
Considering the recent battle over the recent Classified rules, I think the opposite is probably more likely. There's a vocal, powerful clique of people who are very anti-profit. The more likely scenario, Elrick, is this: SP continues to do what it
has done in the past -- be a good partner, deliver good caps at a good price, and make customers happy. GH may continue to place SP groupbuys in a subforum ghetto, in order to create the appearance of some kind of anti-profit 'solidarity', but it will be too late. People will just go straight to SP's website, or DT, or a Google+ community, facebook, etc. to find out about the cool things being made.
But lets make this totally clear here if someone asks these questions like in the old days of Geekhack you'll be allowed to air it and have it discussed freely.
Here we are, Elrick, talking about it. I don't think that's likely to change. And if it is, I'll be right here with you asking questions.
But now we have labelled certain entities as "Religious Icons" that should never be questioned or challenged in any way. Maybe that's the US tradition now but here in convict town we still ask these questions no matter what the consequences shall be.
I don't know where that comes from -- can you cite an example in which someone questioned SP and got banned or silenced for it? I don't support any sacred cows aside from free speech --
sacred cows make the best hamburger!I usually don't care what others do but when a Group Buy is run you think that it would be performed as it has done for the past 3 to 4 years here. Suddenly I see a change and that is what's unnerving me here. I see these dots appearing and I'm joining the lines to create an awful picture of what's to come.......
Change is difficult, but it doesn't scare me. Matteo's Retro GB was (as far as I know) the first one to use a website system to make the aggregation of orders easier, at least here at GH. A lot of people (myself included) thought that was a very positive development. The Retro GB was fast, efficient and well-run. So, with respect to you Elrick, I don't think your fears are justified.
