Truly Ergonomic Unboxing

[F8Tel]

I bought a Kinesis Advantage Pro about a month ago in the standard qwerty configuration and it came with two control keys by default on the upper outer of each thumb block.  

I've remapped all of my rubber f keys to the number keys on the 2nd layer (accessed via keypad button or foot switch, which I prefer) as well as mapped asdf on the 2nd layer to (){}, and created a macro for capslock that spits out -> for programming in PHP.  Remapping to the second layer isn't really addressed in the manual, but everything else is well documented as far as I can tell.  

The one thing that I don't like is that it isn't currently possible to remap symbols independently of the rest of the key.  e.g. remapping the "$" to the "a" key actually moves the whole "4"/"$" key, not just the "$".  We would need an alternate firmware for that I guess.

I don't believe you have multiple Kinesis boards for 15 years and are afraid to remap a single key. I typically remap more than 10 keys on all my Kinesis boards, the old PS/2 and the USB ones, and most people do.
And you made a very false general statement:



That's a total lie, you can remap and have 10 control keys on the keyboard you want.

And in another thread a person asked how to remap something and you "pitched in" saying don't remap the Kinesis or it will get bricked. Total FUD.
The moderator, iMav, owns a Kinesis board, and many people here do, so your bashing won't get you anywhere, but I guess you're targeting people that don't yet own a Kinesis.

[Architect]

I don't believe you have multiple Kinesis boards for 15 years and are afraid to remap a single key.

I prefer to keep my boards stock

I typically remap more than 10 keys on all my Kinesis boards, the old PS/2 and the USB ones, and most people do.

good for you, I'm proud of you

And you made a very false general statement:



That's a total lie, you can remap and have 10 control keys on the keyboard you want.

Obviously, are you stupid? What I was saying (EDIT: or 'meant to say' - gotta be careful with sordna on the beat) was that on a mac you need three controls, command, option and control, and there aren't enough of them on a Kinesis to put on on both hands. I tried by reusing the paging thumb keys and got into trouble. It was probably a fluke.

Obviously I have to go into great detail and depth or the local cop will call me out again. Yay, everybody enjoying this?

And in another thread a person asked how to remap something and you "pitched in" saying don't remap the Kinesis or it will get bricked. Total FUD.
The moderator, iMav, owns a Kinesis board, and many people here do, so your bashing won't get you anywhere, but I guess you're targeting people that don't yet own a Kinesis.

Go ahead, find my exact words, you know you want to. Any reasonable person would infer that I was relating a personal situation, not making a general case about the Kinesis. I'll spell it out for you, I've relayed a few personal anecdotes here, not making a general case against Kinesis.

You are a complete jerk. Trying to drive me off the site obviously, well just f*** off

[sordna]

I never asked you to leave the site (however other people did!) On the other hand, you said on several occasions you will leave the site but always come back, behave nice for a little while, and then ... somehow manage to get in trouble over and over again, with a different person every time. And by they way, a dozen people have called you out, I'm actually only the last to do so, giving you the benefit of the doubt for too long. But enough is enough.

[Input Nirvana]

For fun:
I'd like to see anyone that has used a Kinesis and a TE, regardless of which they like better, write what and why they like whatever feature/aspect better.

Of course be prepared to back up any statements that are objective, not subjective.

Also, those with a Datahand could do the same thing.

NOTE FOR NEWBIES:
If you are looking to purchase an ergo keyboard, and the Kinesis vs TE info is of interest, I suggest you call Kinesis and call TE directly for personal help. Get the information from the horses mouth. The tech departments are not trying to sell you anything

[sordna]

And whoever does a comparison should post photos of the 2 boards side by side. Just to make sure they actually own both boards.

[Input Nirvana]

Gerk, that damn Canadian, gets a free pass on the pic since I sent him one of my girls, then he dumped her like a Friday night date on a Saturday morning. Gerk, who got her? A Geekhacker?

[hoggy]

I'm actually glad I was forced to get used to the keyboard as it is before the remapping software is ready. If it wasn't I would have remapped immediately. [snip]

I prefer to keep my boards stock

...so in 15 years you've not remapped the Kinesis out of fear that it might brick again, but you were going to remap the TE right off the bat?

(edit: corrected a typo.)

[hoggy]

You are a complete jerk. Trying to drive me off the site obviously, well just f*** off

Man, that's just in your head.  Bit uncalled for - are you going to apologise?

I'm not a moderator either...

[Input Nirvana]

Hoggy: Deep cuts internet/forum explorer/investigator at large.

Can you find my cat?

[hoggy]

I bought a Kinesis Advantage Pro about a month ago in the standard qwerty configuration and it came with two control keys by default on the upper outer of each thumb block.  

I've remapped all of my rubber f keys to the number keys on the 2nd layer (accessed via keypad button or foot switch, which I prefer) as well as mapped asdf on the 2nd layer to (){}, and created a macro for capslock that spits out -> for programming in PHP.  Remapping to the second layer isn't really addressed in the manual, but everything else is well documented as far as I can tell.  

The one thing that I don't like is that it isn't currently possible to remap symbols independently of the rest of the key.  e.g. remapping the "$" to the "a" key actually moves the whole "4"/"$" key, not just the "$".  We would need an alternate firmware for that I guess.

Thats the spirit!

You might want to look at Autohotkey - should help you with the last bit of remapping.  

Two years ago I wrote a program that would generate a function 'stub' for me - all I had to do was type the name of the function.  The program would generate a skeleton of the function for me - a boiler plate like affair.  Since then I've fiddled with it so I can add names to arguments and variables and it creates code to validate the arguments, has a laughable stab at instantiating the variables, closes them down and has an error handler.  Code quality has gone up and I type far fewer characters.  Just an idea.

PS Welcome to geekhack!

[Input Nirvana]

You might want to look at Autohotkey - should help you with the last bit of remapping.  

Two years ago I wrote a program that would generate a function 'stub' for me - all I had to do was type the name of the function.  The program would generate a skeleton of the function for me - a boiler plate like affair.  Since then I've fiddled with it so I can add names to arguments and variables and it creates code to validate the arguments, has a laughable stab at instantiating the variables, closes them down and has an error handler.  Code quality has gone up and I type far fewer characters.  Just an idea.

PS Welcome to geekhack!

Holy ****!
I don't know what it is, but I want one!
HOGGY. IS. AWESOME!

DISCLAIMER: Input Nirvana is president of Team Hoggy and the International Hoggy Fan Club (IHFC).

[dotemacs]

Hello,

I can see a lot of passion here.

The thread is a discussion about Truly Ergonomic, but since people are talking about Kinesis, here is my setup:

Left side of the keyboard:

Caps Lock bound to +/= key
Arrow left bound to Control
Arrow right bound to Meta

Right side of the keyboard:
Arrow up bound to Meta
Arrow down bound to Control

The way I type and what I consider to be correct is:

When I type Control-F, I do the following:
the right hand would press the Control key and the left would press the F.

When I type Control-P, I do the following:
the left hand presses the Controll key and the right presses the P.

I don't use Alt-Tab, as I prefer Control-Tab and the way I type it is with both hands: left does the Tab, while the right does the Control.

I consider this to be correct as I'm guided by the way numerals are typed: one hand types the Shift key and the other does the numerals.

As for Kinesis not being able to have multiple Control keys, I read that and I wrote it off as: "it's probably one of those people that does Alt-Tab with one hand" :smile: so I didn't pay much attention to it. But since I use Emacs, I don't think I would have used it if it wasn't able to have the Control key on both sides of the keyboard. I for example will never buy a Mac laptop, just because of this, as it doesn't have a Control key on the right.

My complaints with with Kinesis is the following: [/{ & ]/} keys are in a awkward position and they are used a lot when programming not just for creating constructs, but also for movement around the text. Also, the space bar is only available on the right side. Control and Alt keys are in a very strange positions, you have to shift your hands off the home keys to type them. I like what Truly Ergonimc has, but even better would be if there were four long keys, on both sides (so 8 in total), instead of the current thumb key positions. They should have the following: Space/Enter/Control/Meta. And their position should match more closely the way the thumb is positioned, so that you can type them without ever having to move your fingers off the home row. I don't care much for the Home/End/Pg(Up|Dn).

As for the macro hardware functionality, Emacs has this already in software, so I haven't used it at all. Regarding the potential templates when programming, again Emacs also has this and I use it a lot all the time.

[hoggy]

Holy ****!
I don't know what it is, but I want one!
HOGGY. IS. AWESOME!

DISCLAIMER: Input Nirvana is president of Team Hoggy and the International Hoggy Fan Club (IHFC).

I was late for work - some difficulty in leaving the house...

It isn't all that impressive - and the code behind it is as ugly as hell.
[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 36247[/ATTACH]

[sordna]

dotemacs, have you seen this? Please sign up if you like it, it is truly split and will have quite a bit extra modifier keys:
http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?22780-Interest-Check-Custom-split-ergo-keyboard

[Gerk]

Input Nirvana:  Your old Kinesis went to another geekhacker yes, in fact it went all the way to New Zealand!  The new recipient loves and cherishes her so she's gone to a good home.

As for all the requests to compare a Kinesis to a TE I have this to say:  Start a new thread ... please?  Same goes if you feel the need to post all the merits of the Kinesis Advantage boards and/or are worried about someone posting something incorrect (OMG that happens on the internet?  It must be corrected immediately!).  The post count of Kinesis vs TE in this thread is leaning way too far into Kinesis territory for me ... I personally don't care about them anymore, they were not for me and I really don't want to continue seeing "but the Kinesis can do that better" whenever someone posts info about the TE.  IMHO it CANNOT.  They are very very different boards.  I like the TE, I do not like the Kinesis.  To me the Kinesis ergonomics are horrible.  P.S.  I'm not going to "correct" that information either, it's my opinion and it's valid.  If you guys want to go toe to toe on the ergonomic benefits (or non-benefits) of the Kinesis board vs the TE or other boards then please start another thread and I'll be happy to contribute there, but in the meantime, again, can we at least make some sort of effort to keep this thread on topic?  thx

[dorkvader]

For fun:
I'd like to see anyone that has used a Kinesis and a TE, regardless of which they like better, write what and why they like whatever feature/aspect better.

Of course be prepared to back up any statements that are objective, not subjective.

Also, those with a Datahand could do the same thing.

http://www.sacrideo.us/v5/blog/review_truly_ergo

I was really happy with this review, he has a datahand. The author is apparently on columnaire's forum too, and he says he will write more later. No kinesis, though.

[sordna]

As for all the requests to compare a Kinesis to a TE I have this to say:  Start a new thread ... please?  Same goes if you feel the need to post all the merits of the Kinesis Advantage boards and/or are worried about someone posting something incorrect (OMG that happens on the internet?  It must be corrected immediately!).  The post count of Kinesis vs TE in this thread is leaning way too far into Kinesis territory for me

Agreed.

[Input Nirvana]

Input Nirvana:  Your old Kinesis went to another geekhacker yes, in fact it went all the way to New Zealand!  The new recipient loves and cherishes her so she's gone to a good home.

As for all the requests to compare a Kinesis to a TE I have this to say:  Start a new thread ... please?  Same goes if you feel the need to post all the merits of the Kinesis Advantage boards and/or are worried about someone posting something incorrect (OMG that happens on the internet?  It must be corrected immediately!).  The post count of Kinesis vs TE in this thread is leaning way too far into Kinesis territory for me ... I personally don't care about them anymore, they were not for me and I really don't want to continue seeing "but the Kinesis can do that better" whenever someone posts info about the TE.  IMHO it CANNOT.  They are very very different boards.  I like the TE, I do not like the Kinesis.  To me the Kinesis ergonomics are horrible.  P.S.  I'm not going to "correct" that information either, it's my opinion and it's valid.  If you guys want to go toe to toe on the ergonomic benefits (or non-benefits) of the Kinesis board vs the TE or other boards then please start another thread and I'll be happy to contribute there, but in the meantime, again, can we at least make some sort of effort to keep this thread on topic?  thx

1) It was a disengenuous statement (of fact) that had a purposeful "lean" to a newbi, I believe that's why it went over so poorly. This forum should have a higher standard for that.

2) Ergonomics isn't black/white, it's very subjective, and those statements don't need correcting. They are valuable personal observations and preferences. Liking/disliking is why we're here, to learn about this, no right/wrong.

3) Not an anbsolute statement: My observation about most of the repeated/constant Kinesis-TE comparing keeps starting from the same primary source, and that illicts the responses. Just like the above incident. I'm reading between the lines and am curious why the (not needed) attempts at legitimizing the TE by comparing to Kinesis keep happening. I agree with you, they are totally different, but share a couple features. That's why I thought a more formal thread with comparisons by users that cared about it and would "get it out there" once and for all, like the Ripster subforum. I actually think the comparison is pointless, but it sounds like TE website and a person or two feel differently.

Gimmie advance schedule notice for your trip

[Hitch22]

Sorry if this has already been answered.... but can someone let me know what type of plastic the TEK uses? ABS, POM, PBT?

Cheers!

[Hitch22]

Have I ever told you guys about the hammer test for testing plastic composition?

You mean to say you don't know which plastic is used for the keycaps?!!

Your title of WN1KBX is in doubt! :tongue:

[dorkvader]

Have I ever told you guys about the hammer test for testing plastic composition?

It's pretty easy to set up an actual fracture toughness test rig that will give you real results (that are accurate, unlike any hammer test). What you want to do, is clamp the test sample down, and clamp a chisel to an arm on a pivot, and let it fall from different heights. Tell us the pivot length, and the tests are easily repeatable.

You definitely aren't the #1 scientist on the planet though, much as I try to rectify that.

[sordna]

I saw this link at deskthority, talking about NEC's M system

This keyboard is from 1983, can you believe it?

[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 36446[/ATTACH]

[hoggy]

I saw this link at deskthority, talking about NEC's M system

This keyboard is from 1983, can you believe it?

(Attachment Link) 36446[/ATTACH]

But who has the money and time to test all of the keyboards out there, and design a better, simpler tool?
You guessed right, we do.

(http://www.trulyergonomic.com)

That photo could have saved them a whole load of bother...

[hoggy]

...and this shows just how far we've come in the years since then.

[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 36448[/ATTACH]

[Gong-Yi]

It seems that this persion is typing Japanese.

[Gong-Yi]

This keyboard is from 1983, can you believe it?

It seems that this person is typing Japanese.

[Keymonger]

It seems that this person is typing Japanese.

Which makes it all the more impressive!

[appie747]

TE is accepting new orders from 12th of january they say on their website! Wonder what the price will be...

[shrap]

TE is accepting new orders from 12th of january they say on their website! Wonder what the price will be...

You'd think that would be an important piece of information to include. Before: unknown shipping date, now: unknown price

I signed up to their email list right after people started receiving them in the mail and haven't heard a peep.

[hoggy]

You'd think that would be an important piece of information to include. Before: unknown shipping date, now: unknown price

I signed up to their email list right after people started receiving them in the mail and haven't heard a peep.

I'd guess the price is either $200 as before ... or $300...

[shrap]

I'd guess the price is either $200 as before ... or $300...

According to one of the other threads, only preorders got the $200 price, and it should be $250 for the rest of us unbelievers. However without an official price, it's all speculation - and at this early state, it's still possible for the price to go down or up depending on how many people are willing to fork over the money.

[dorkvader]

According to one of the other threads, only preorders got the $200 price, and it should be $250 for the rest of us unbelievers. However without an official price, it's all speculation - and at this early state, it's still possible for the price to go down or up depending on how many people are willing to fork over the money.

Ugh: I'd rather get a used kinesis (or ergo dox) for that kind of money.

[Columnaire]

So have people continued to be happy with their TE keyboards? I have. The typing is mostly no problem.


* I very much like that the shift keys are moved up, and the control keys are moved up. I now regularly mistake those keys on my laptop.
* I am pleasantly surprised that the arc of the key rows is just about right for my large hands.
* No problem learning to hit the delete key with my right forefinger. I would prefer left thumb, and I might make that happen at some point.
* No problem hitting the quote key on the bottom row
* I often hit the Enter key when I mean to hit the space key. I need to learn not to extend my thumb
* It's hard to remember that the question mark is on the left now.
* It's hard to find the slash and backslash keys. Whenever I'm typing path names, I keep looking for those keys on the right.
* My overall typing speed is fine.

[Rajagra]

So have people continued to be happy with their TE keyboards?

Very happy. Sometimes I hit Backspace instead of B, and when I want Backspace I find it a stretch (I reprogram CapsLock on normal boards.) Apart from that, I'm fine. Even learning the navigation keys with my thumbs.
Typing on my laptop keyboard was awful. The conventional location of the Shifts is just plain bad.

[hoggy]

So thanks again, y'all, for inviting me to GH -- I wish someone would have left a comment on my review for me to come here! I would have found you all earlier! I've long been an input enthusiast (Fingerworks, AlphaGrip, assorted ergos) and this forum will be a new home for me.

Columnaire, could you take a group photo, please?  How does the TE compare to the Fingerworks?

[Findecanor]

This keyboard is from 1983, can you believe it?

I have seen a patent application from 1913 for a typewriter with that layout. It was also angled and tented.
... but the layout might be even older than that, I don't know.

[appie747]

Ugh: I'd rather get a used kinesis (or ergo dox) for that kind of money.

If I could find a used Kinesis advantage here in Europe somewhere, I would have bought it already! Retail it's 350 euro here in Holland.

[Columnaire]

Columnaire, could you take a group photo, please?  How does the TE compare to the Fingerworks?

I would love to do that, but I already sold my Fingerworks to a gentleman in California.

I can say, however, that they are similar size, each being split, with palm rests, and no numeric keypad. The Fingerworks could never overcome its limitation of not having touchy feedback, so your fingers can automatically know when they missed a key. Even though I now have to reach for my mouse instead of having gestures right there under my fingers, I'm still much faster and more accurate typing now.

[sordna]

I have seen a patent application from 1913 for a typewriter with that layout. It was also angled and tented.
... but the layout might be even older than that, I don't know.

Interesting... do you have a link?

[Arktik]

If I could find a used Kinesis advantage here in Europe somewhere, I would have bought it already! Retail it's 350 euro here in Holland.

For that money it is cheaper to order directly from Kinesis and pay import taxes. So did I, because of special wishes.

[Findecanor]

Interesting... do you have a link?

It is US patent no 1089689. Google Patents does not support persistent links.

[sordna]

Aha, I see you posted about it a while back.
Indeed you are right!!!

[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 36814[/ATTACH]

[Keymonger]

Aha, I see you posted about it a while back.
Indeed you are right!!!

(Attachment Link) 36814[/ATTACH]

Holy balls.

It seems we are all screwed over with the regular, crappy keyboard layouts because the people that care about these things are just vastly outnumbered... mediocrity has won it out over proper design.

[Arktik]

wow, nice, I wonder if the user had to look through that typing wheel to see his print. That wouldn´t be very ergonomic,,,at least for his neck

[appie747]

For that money it is cheaper to order directly from Kinesis and pay import taxes. So did I, because of special wishes.

Ok, and how much did you pay, including import taxes and shipment?

[Arktik]

Depending on the current currency exchange factor. I paid at a course of 1€=1,5$ (currently the course is bad 1€:1,27$):
Kinesis Advantage USB (German layout, switchable to DVORAK, black) 299$
Red MX Key wells (left and right together) 90$
Red switches for thumb keys and stuff 15$
shipping handling to Germany 66,30$
-
Important is how much are the import taxes of the Netherlands. In Germany 19%, Plus possible customs duty.

PS: I should mention, because, i wanted extra red key wells, it was not possible to buy in Europe. So I ordered all together. If you have special wishes just ask them Ahh and really dont forget import fees, maybe you save money if you announce your buy at the duty, depends on the country and the limit they have.

[oneproduct]

Do the 104 and 109 models have the same numbers of switches? By this I mean are the double width keys at the edges sitting on two actual switches that you could seat two single width keys on? I think I recall someone saying that they were identical and a DIP switch in the back toggled between the settings but I couldn't seem to find that comment again. Also, where are the naked pictures!?

[hoggy]

...Looks like they missed their own deadline of 12th Jan to start up selling again...

[fossala]

...Looks like they missed their own deadline of 12th Jan to start up selling again...

You mean they set a date that they couldn't meet? That doesn't sound like them. Oh wait...

[Architect]

You mean they set a date that they couldn't meet? That doesn't sound like them. Oh wait...

you would have thought they'd learn by now, ridiculous.


The keyboard has shaped up, I'm successfully using all the keys on it at speed. Overall productivity has gone up, the three modifiers has encouraged me to finally start using extensive keyboard shortcuts. I'm not mousing much at all anymore, it's all at the keyboard.

Here's the mapping I've settled on from stock

[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 37387[/ATTACH]