IBM Model M

[lbt1233]

I'm sure all of you are aware of the IBM Model M keyboards. I'm looking to buy one and I'm coming across the different model numbers of the M. Does anyone have incite on which variation is the best and why? A few of the numbers I came across are 1391406, 1391401, and 82G2383. Thanks

[Autolyze]

I'm not an expert, but I would say 41G3600, the industrial Space Saving Keyboard, is probably considered the "best" Model M. They're pretty rare though and the only one I've seen for sale ended up going for 510 EUR, so it's probably not what you're looking to buy.

Wikipedia's page on the Model M has the basic info on most of the part numbers you'll come across. Out of the ones you've listed, you probably want a 1391401 unless it comes with an AT cable, assuming you're looking for ANSI (US layout). A lot of people around here are into keyboards without numpads, so the Space Saving Keyboard variations (like 1391472) are fairly popular. They tend to be more expensive than the full-size boards though since they're less common and more in demand.

[bazemk1979]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/IBM-82G2383-VINTAGE-CLICKY-OLD-SCHOOL-SPRINGY-KEYBOARD-USB-ADAPTER-/120924023380?pt=PCA_Mice_Trackballs&hash=item1c27a22a54

this is an awesome deal for almost new maeby even never used IBM blue logo made by Lexmark + it includes the blue cube adapter, I would of snatched it right away but I have way too many IBM's new and used, well more like 80% new and 20% used.

Get that one, not much difference between the Lexmark and IBM made, lexmark has thinier/lighter metal  plate and maeby fit and finish of casing lacking in quality vs original IBM, but thats only in some rear cases.

Also take a look at this puppy, its BNIB Model M 122 key terminal and works fine on todays PC's, I'm typing on it right now and enjoying it. You cant beat the price though,seller accepts $40 offer + shipping http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lexmark-NEW-Computer-Keyboard-Model-M-C3229A-PN1428260-/260718881126?pt=PCA_Mice_Trackballs&hash=item3cb40e6966

and a nice review by a GHer for the keyboard http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:31156

[smknjoe]

So what is a NIB M worth? I've seen them going for about $150 (manufactured in '94/'95 and made in US/Mexico) over at clickykeyboards. Is it all about condition or something else?

[bazemk1979]

5depends on the year, nib lexmark blue logo goes around 100-150, ibm made blue and white logo can go from 150-300, silver logo square badge 250-400, SSK 300-500, Industrial lexmarks 250-350, industrial IBM 300-500, Lexmark soft touch 300-500............

[kalrykh]

If you're willing to grab a used model m, there are usually some available in near pristine shape, starting at around 50 bucks.  I just got a 1391401 from clickykeyboards.com.  I could have gotten one cheaper on ebay, no doubt, but I know clickykeyboards cleans their stuff up really well and that it will arrive in tip top shape.  I really dont like taking chances with ebay

[smknjoe]

What are typical used prices then?

I haven't looked around clickykeybords very much. Maybe I should dig a little deeper.

[fohat.digs]

Prices are way up from last year. If you want to spend an hour cleaning a keyboard (I recommend that you do, even if you aren't a germ freak) then decent used ones that need cleaning are selling for $30-40 + shipping at auction on ebay.

Shipping is realistically $10-12 to nearby states and $16 max domestic, if you use the flat rate game board box, so if somebody is shipping for $5 they are taking a loss on it, probably without knowing. So I what am saying is, factor the shipped cost when bidding.

Although I like old stuff and enjoy tinkering with it, once you get much above $50 you should really start thinking hard about a brand new Unicomp. Contrary to what many people hint at, they really are "true" Model Ms, if not necessarily identical to the older IBMs in every way. And the brand logos are really really ugly.

You can get different (ie smaller) footprints, black and other colors, and native USB plugs. Those are compelling reasons.

Spending over $100 is collecting or obsessing.

[Krogenar]

Although I like old stuff and enjoy tinkering with it, once you get much above $50 you should really start thinking hard about a brand new Unicomp. Contrary to what many people hint at, they really are "true" Model Ms, if not necessarily identical to the older IBMs in every way. And the brand logos are really really ugly.

I've been wondering if I should just get a Unicomp myself. I have a vintage Model M at home, but I'm looking for one for work. I figure with a Unicomp I get the benefits you mention, but I've heard that the build quality and weight are not as good as the original Model M. Would you agree? Or is the difference negligible?

[1391406]

I own both and the differences aren't negligible, in my opinion. The Unicomp board weighs less and feels / sounds different. I've discussed this in the following post, as well:

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=34404.msg635562#msg635555

[urbanus]

I've been wondering if I should just get a Unicomp myself. I have a vintage Model M at home, but I'm looking for one for work. I figure with a Unicomp I get the benefits you mention, but I've heard that the build quality and weight are not as good as the original Model M. Would you agree? Or is the difference negligible?

Unicomps weigh less because they have a thinner steel backplate.  I believe this also affects the sound (they ping less than the original Model Ms).

The original IBM Model Ms used ABS plastic for the shell.  Unicomps use an improved plastic mix.  Whether this makes a difference in practice is hard to say -- I'll see how my Unicomps are holding up in 20 years' time. 

And that's about it.

Personally, I use my Unicomps regularly.  They have a great sound and feel.  I've got no complaints about the quality, they're fantastic.

[dorkvader]

So what is a NIB M worth? I've seen them going for about $150 (manufactured in '94/'95 and made in US/Mexico) over at clickykeyboards. Is it all about condition or something else?

You can get a NIB model M for $79 any day of the week. From unicomp.

I believe the shells are ABS+PC and should be somewhat tougher than just plain ABS.

[hakujin]

I have an extra model M I purchased as a backup from clickykeyboards.com that's sitting on a shelf in my closet,  untouched, because god knows these things don't need a backup... If you're interested I'll cut you a deal on a clean, well taken care of early year ('88) 1391401.

[jkercado]

The only real reasons to get a Model M, and not a Unicomp would be: 1) Cheap way to try buckling springs, 2) You want to try the original IBM product out of curiosity, 3) You collect IBM stuff, or 4) You're getting a special model like a SSK.

Other than that, you might be better off buying a brand-spanking new Unicomp, which you can get with USB interface and Windows keys.

[aycko]

Is there actually a real difference between the silver, blue and white label edition of the Model M or is it just the sticker and the production date?

[oluf]

5) Lack of a windows key.

The only real reasons to get a Model M, and not a Unicomp would be: 1) Cheap way to try buckling springs, 2) You want to try the original IBM product out of curiosity, 3) You collect IBM stuff, or 4) You're getting a special model like a SSK.

Other than that, you might be better off buying a brand-spanking new Unicomp, which you can get with USB interface and Windows keys.

[hakujin]

Is there actually a real difference between the silver, blue and white label edition of the Model M or is it just the sticker and the production date?

Yes, the older model Ms (86-88? 89?) used heavier backplates and had wire stabilizers under the longer keys. The newer blue label model Ms added drainage channels and a non removable cable. Most people seem to find the key action to be progressively (a little) lighter as IBM transitioned between models.

[czarek]

My theory is that buckling spring mechanism stiffen with time and this stiffening can be sped up by keeping them in bad condition. As an example I've got blue label that is stiffer than a silver label (I've got this blue label in very bad condition, silver label was restored by previous owner, not sure what was its condition before that) and NIB SSK that is almost as light as Unicomps (got few of them). Also I don't think it's actual spring tension, I think it's just a stem having more friction due to dirt or some plastic micro damages. It's just my theory though.

[1391406]

The original IBM Model Ms used ABS plastic for the shell.  Unicomps use an improved plastic mix.

The Unicomp case feels flimsier compared to an original Model M, in my opinion. They have more flex, which is one reason why the original Model M (case) feels sturdier to me. The same holds true for the keycaps themselves. I suppose if you associate a plastic that's thinner and more flexible with improvement, then the Unicomp case uses an improved plastic.

An original Model M isn't just sturdier, in my opinion, it also costs less than a new Unicomp board. I'd invite anyone who has an original Model M to buy a new Unicomp and judge for themselves. If it's not to their liking, return it. The differences aren't negligible though, in my opinion.

[fohat.digs]

The case plastic material is a non-issue in my opinion.

The Model F case plastic is a problem because it is more brittle, I am typing on my favorite keyboard but it has a wire-and-epoxy repair job in one corner.

Although all my M/Fs are crusty old behemoths, my immediate advice to any buckling spring newbie would be to buy a smaller-footprint Unicomp with native USB plug.

If you want to get into it and collect vintage stuff later, for whatever reasons, great!

But otherwise, start out on something "modern" and fresh. You probably wanted black or gray, anyway, right?

[tobydeemer]

5) Lack of a windows key.

Hah, as a Linux user, I approve this message.

And to stay on-topic, I have two Model M's- 1988 Grey label IBM, 1993 blue label IBM. Both are fantastic, and I paid ~35$ for each last year. As others have noted however, prices seem to be a bit up this year for IBM originals. IMO, if you end up liking buckling springs, you probably can't go wrong with a good price original or a new Unicomp.

Have at it, I say.

[dorkvader]

5) Lack of a windows key.

The only real reasons to get a Model M, and not a Unicomp would be: 1) Cheap way to try buckling springs, 2) You want to try the original IBM product out of curiosity, 3) You collect IBM stuff, or 4) You're getting a special model like a SSK.

Other than that, you might be better off buying a brand-spanking new Unicomp, which you can get with USB interface and Windows keys.

Unicomp sells Winkeyless keyboards, just like IBM.

5) Lack of a windows key.

Hah, as a Linux user, I approve this message.

I don't as a linux user. I have my super key mapped to do useful stuff, like lock the computer before bed (which turns the screen off quickly), change desktops, etc. It's very useful.

[Elrick]

Unicomp sells Winkeyless keyboards, just like IBM.

Please can you provide a link to their store front?  I would love to buy one and keep the SSK going strong.

[hashbaz]

Unicomp sells Winkeyless keyboards, just like IBM.

Please can you provide a link to their store front?  I would love to buy one and keep the SSK going strong.

Just google Unicomp. They don't actually sell SSKs though, unfortunately.  Winkeyless means no Windows keys, tenkeyless means no tenkey, i.e., number pad.

[jkercado]

If Unicomp built a black SSK, black keys with gray labeling, and with a redesigned indicator panel with blue LEDs, they would sell like hotcakes.

[1391406]

start out on something "modern" and fresh. You probably wanted black or gray, anyway, right?

If a Unicomp board would've been my first exposure to Buckling Springs, I probably would've thought it was a nice board, but having used both, the Unicomp feels like a cheap knockoff to me comparatively, but again that's me, which is why I don't recommend them to people interested in trying Buckling Springs. I keep the Unicomp around as a backup.

[1391406]

Unicomp sells Winkeyless keyboards, just like IBM.

Please can you provide a link to their store front?

http://pckeyboard.com/

[urbanus]

...the Unicomp feels like a cheap knockoff to me comparatively, but again that's me, ...

I have a different point of view, but I respect your opinion.

For anyone interested in a Model M with a more classic feel, I'd suggest the Kentucky Wildcats from Unicomp.  I got one recently with another keyboard purchase because it was cheap.  Even though it's NIB (actually, new in plastic wrapping) it was manufactured in 1999.  That makes it a similar vintage to the blue labels, and it has the same heavier backplate and sturdy construction.

[jkercado]

start out on something "modern" and fresh. You probably wanted black or gray, anyway, right?

If a Unicomp board would've been my first exposure to Buckling Springs, I probably would've thought it was a nice board, but having used both, the Unicomp feels like a cheap knockoff to me comparatively, but again that's me, which is why I don't recommend them to people interested in trying Buckling Springs. I keep the Unicomp around as a backup.

I disagree with you immensely. In my opinion, there's a lot of McRip effect on the IBM vs. Unicomp debate. But again, it's my opinion. I do think that Unicomps are extremely well built, feel solid, have great workmanship, and are the definite modern alternative for those that crave the buckling spring mechanism but desire some modern features.

[rayuki]

the lexmark model ms are pretty good and you can still find them cheap if you look. funny story i actually used to own one years ago and never realized it was a model M, back before i knew what all the hype was about. i had it and used it as my main keyboard for almost 10 years and people would always give me wierd looks at lan parties lol but it was and still is the best keyboard i've ever typed on.

it was heavily heavily used though so after all the years and me not looking after it i had to ditch it for a 20th century mech keyboard and thats how my new collection started.

[Velma]

I know some people love this keyboard to death for its nostalgic and vintage value, but technically speaking, without the nostalgia factor, how good are these boards and buckling springs compared to Cherry MX? Im assuming they could be compared to Clears except a bit louder. Would you use this keyboard for gaming?

[jkercado]

I know some people love this keyboard to death for its nostalgic and vintage value, but technically speaking, without the nostalgia factor, how good are these boards and buckling springs compared to Cherry MX? Im assuming they could be compared to Clears except a bit louder. Would you use this keyboard for gaming?

I think in the end it boils down to preference. Cherry Blues are wonderful switches, but I prefer buckling springs--my "style" works better with the higher resistance and I prefer the tactile feedback of the buckling springs.

[Daniel Beaver]

I know some people love this keyboard to death for its nostalgic and vintage value, but technically speaking, without the nostalgia factor, how good are these boards and buckling springs compared to Cherry MX? Im assuming they could be compared to Clears except a bit louder. Would you use this keyboard for gaming?

It might be worth pointing out that Cherry MX switches are near contemporaries to buckling spring switches, so they aren't inherently more "modern". I personally slightly prefer buckling springs (for their crisp feel, and lack of significant hysteresis), but modern Cherry boards like the Leopold are comparable in quality to Model M keyboards. Model Ms are, if nothing else, highly rugged.

Model M's are not particularly good for gaming, since they are only 2KRO, which can cause issues in FPSs where you need to press a bunch of buttons at the same time. You can especially run into issues if you use the caps lock key in conjunction with the wasd cluster - there are a couple combinations that don't work (I think caps+w+d?). That said, they're perfectly usable in games like Starcraft. I don't use mine for gaming - that's what Topres are for 

[1391406]

I disagree with you immensely. In my opinion, there's a lot of McRip effect on the IBM vs. Unicomp debate.

There's nothing McRip about the weight or sound differential. They're empirically verifiable. I'd bet money that, in a blind test, I could differentiate between the two without hesitation.

[N8N]

5) Lack of a windows key.

Hah, as a Linux user, I approve this message.

The sad thing is, ever since I upgraded to Ubuntu 12.04 and then realized how badly Unity sucked, I actually need the 'super' key to manipulate Gnome throwback.  And it still does not work as well as gnome 2.

[dorkvader]

I disagree with you immensely. In my opinion, there's a lot of McRip effect on the IBM vs. Unicomp debate.

There's nothing McRip about the weight or sound differential. They're empirically verifiable. I'd bet money that, in a blind test, I could differentiate between the two without hesitation.

I could differentiate between my (more then 20 years old) model M and my unicomp, but the difference was never that much to me. I would say that there is a greater difference between my Cherry browns that are PCB mounted and my plate mounted ones.

There is a much larger difference between my unicomp or my 1391401 and my Model F XT or F122.

This is why I recommend unicomps so much. They're great, USB, new, not that expensive, etc.

---
I would say that the unicomp isn't that great for gaming. The switches have hysterisis (like all "clicky" switches do), which may get annoying at times. It also only has 2KRO, like all membrane keyboards. That said, I gamed on my IBM for years, and it was significantly more enjoyable than my older logitech with domes. I'm more of a casual gamer, though.

[rknize]

Having just replaced the rubber mat in my 1993 SSK with a new one from Unicomp, I can say that it also plays a part in the sound difference.  The SSK has that extra bit of snappiness now that my Unicomps have.

I have several Model Ms of various vintage (both SSK and not) and two Unicomps.  The cases do have more flex to them, but it's fairly irrelevant while typing.  The smaller case of the Ultra is nice.  I do miss the super key on the IBMs too.  There is something to be said for a slightly more modern design.

[1391406]

I disagree with you immensely. In my opinion, there's a lot of McRip effect on the IBM vs. Unicomp debate.

There's nothing McRip about the weight or sound differential. They're empirically verifiable. I'd bet money that, in a blind test, I could differentiate between the two without hesitation.

I could differentiate between my (more then 20 years old) model M and my unicomp, but the difference was never that much to me.

I suppose it depends on your criteria as to what constitutes a negligible difference. Being able to empirically verify a distinction in all three categories (weight, feel, and sound) tends to conform to my criteria for a substantive discrepancy, but that's me. At the least, the differences are significant enough that it would be misleading to label a Unicomp Classic a replica (ie. exact reproduction) of a 1391401, in my opinion. Whether one considers the differences a positive or negative is another matter.

There is a much larger difference between my unicomp or my 1391401 and my Model F XT or F122.

I'd agree, although unlike Unicomp's vs. original Model M's, to my knowledge no one's ever claimed 1391401's and Model F's are basically one and the same.

[aycko]

@N8N: You can map "Scroll Lock" to "Windows Key left".

In Windows you can use "sharpkeys" but I guess Linux has some kind of equivalent.

Works reasonably well, except you need two hands for hotkey combinations.

[fohat.digs]

I stand by what I said earlier.

I have a dozen Model M/Fs of various ages, dates, and part numbers, and modded or not to varying degrees. They are all IBMs although I have owned Lexmarks and Unicomps.

Each is different and has its own personality.

I have been using a heavily-modded F-122 (ie internal Teensy, springs & barrels moved to simulate ANSI, new homemade foam pad, bolt-mod, floss-mod, and internal pillow stuffing) for nearly a year, and whenever I use anything else it feels like cheap plastic junk. And that includes my immaculate and thoughtfully modded 1390131. This board feels and sounds incredibly solid and pleasant, but the noise is nicely attenuated to the point that it does not bother the wife and kids at all.

But, I am obviously a tinkerer and have spent dozens of hours on ebay and even more hours at the workbench.

Like buying a classic car and restoring it, you can get an awesome result if you are willing to pay the price (in more than money), but that is not for everybody.

Otherwise, if you have never used buckling springs but want to try something that you can take out of the box, plug in, and enjoy immediately, buy this:

http://pckeyboard.com/page/UKBD/UB40P4A

And don't look back.

PS - you might have to look forward to that wallet-hack thing starting again if you get into vintage stuff