Another quiet mechanical keyboard thread

[Resaebiunne]

So, I've gotten some complaints recently about my keyboard at work, and I definitely want to find something quieter.

I'm using a Dell AT101W in place of the cheap microsoft rubber dome they gave me.  At home I used an IBM Model M (on my desktop).  Since I tend to type fast and bottom out the keys, both are actually quite loud.  The AT101W especially has quite a thwack to it.  

Having read some of the threads here on the forum, it seems scissor switches may be the way to go, but personally the whole reason for having a good keyboard such as AT101w or Model M is for the key tactility.  Scissor switches belong on laptops, especially if they are chiclet style.  So... here I am.

I'm thinking of the Rosewill RK9000 with the MX Browns, especially cuz it's on sale at Newegg, but I'm not convinced it's going to be any quieter than the At101W, especially given my typing style.  My next thought is the Realforce 87u silent, but it's $310, and that's just too much for a keyboard that I'll leave at work.  I don't want to risk it getting stolen.  Ideally I'd spend ~$100, but I'm flexible.  Thoughts?

[cleeoo]

The normal Topre keyboards aren't too loud. Or I don't think so either, and I bottom out when I type too. I haven't used the silent one so I'm not too sure what the difference is in the noise levels. If leaving it at work is a problem, you could always get a TKL or a HHKB2 and take it to and from work, if that's an option? I am guessing there is no chance of you being able to leave it in a drawer or cupboard at your desk, out of sight when you're not at work (although I guess that's not that much more secure)? Or locking it somewhere?

The alternative is probably a MX keyboard with o-rings?

[WRXChris]

I would recommend a cherry mx board (browns or clears) with o-rings.  It sounds like you are a heavy typist, so you may want to consider an mx clear board (55g springs, browns are 45g), but they are getting hard to find new these days.  If you aren't so concerned with aesthetics you could get a refurbished mx clear g80 for ~$45 shipped from ebay:
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Cherry-Mechanical-PS2-Keyboard-MX-Clear-Touchpad-Programmable-N-Key-Rollover-G80-/221047052085?pt=PCA_Mice_Trackballs&hash=item33776e5735#ht_3524wt_966

[nullstring]

I don't know how loud the Alps are, but I can rank some of the cherries based on my own observations:

1. Blues: 5
2. Browns: 3
3. Reds: 2.5
4. Average Rubber Dome: 2

I would say that MX browns are about 50% louder than rubber dome.

[fohat.digs]

O-rings and a soft pad between the board and the desk will help a lot. Without mods, Cherry switches will not be significantly quieter than Alps.

Flossing the Model M will cut out a lot of the higher resonances so that the sound does not carry as far.

[Resaebiunne]

I don't know how loud the Alps are, but I can rank some of the cherries based on my own observations:

1. Blues: 5
2. Browns: 3
3. Reds: 2.5
4. Average Rubber Dome: 2

I would say that MX browns are about 50% louder than rubber dome.

In that case, the browns might not be so bad.  I switched out my at101w here at work and its definitely quieter, but the board is just too light and mushy, ick.

[Matias]

We're releasing a quiet version of the Tactile Pro in about a month.  It uses a new switch that we've been developing for over 2 years.  It's quieter than any of the Cherry switches, and more tactile.

If you can wait, it should solve your problem.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Is this new Tactile Pro going to be available in Windows layout?

I could forgive the garish case if I can just have all 105 ISO keys where IBM and Microsoft intended ;-) (AutoHotkey does NOT work inside remote access software, for starters.)

[Resaebiunne]

Hm, yeap, "Windows" layout is preferred, but I can forgive the lack of a Windows key.  The extra command and apple keys would get irritating quickly.

[dorkvader]

I don't know how loud the Alps are, but I can rank some of the cherries based on my own observations:

1. Blues: 5
2. Browns: 3
3. Reds: 2.5
4. Average Rubber Dome: 2

I would say that MX browns are about 50% louder than rubber dome.

In my experience, browns are pretty quiet, if you don't bottom out. I still have yet to try o rings, though.

[Matias]

Is this new Tactile Pro going to be available in Windows layout?

I could forgive the garish case if I can just have all 105 ISO keys where IBM and Microsoft intended ;-) (AutoHotkey does NOT work inside remote access software, for starters.)

Yes, we're doing a Windows version -- no AutoHotkey required.  The case on the PC one is black.  I don't think you'll find it garish.  :-)

[Matias]

Just a suggestion: it must be very expensive (and scary) to commit to buy hundreds of thousands of switches from the factory.  If the switch you are developing is Alps based you may want to offer to sell these switches on the side for hobbyists to solder into their old Alps based boards.

You probably won't sell a ton but if you can sell a few thousand - well - that's a few thousand off the contract.

Yes, we'll be selling them both in small and large quantities, to whoever wants to buy them.  We probably won't make a lot of money selling switches, but we want this switch to catch on, so we're making it as available as possible.

Fuhua did a lousy job marketing "Fukka" Alps switches for things they were better suited for than Cherrys, so Cherry "won" by default.  You can't win the game if you don't even show up.

The new switch is made from better materials than the old Fukkas and has a longer operating life.  We're already past 25 million actuations, and expect it to go at least as high as the 50 million actuations that Cherrys are rated for.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Fukka switches do have a disadvantage: ALPS switches are noisy. That you have rectified this is a big advantage.

Now we just have to guess the colour of the sliders in the new switch (is this a Simplified ALPS Type V, or is it a complicated switch?)

So far, we've had cream, orange, pink, white and black.

Someone suggested purple for a new Cherry switch, which is still a free colour at the moment. I don't think maroon ever got used for anything either; teal is nice but it's been used for some rare Cherry MX switches before.

[Matias]

Fukka switches do have a disadvantage: ALPS switches are noisy. That you have rectified this is a big advantage.

Yes, that was the plan.  :-)

Now we just have to guess the colour of the sliders in the new switch (is this a Simplified ALPS Type V, or is it a complicated switch?)

No need to guess.  They are bright orange.  Internal structure is similar to the switches on the Apple Extended Keyboard II, but more tactile and quieter.

[FoxWolf1]

Definitely liking the idea of these new ALPS-style switches so far. How do they compare to black StrongMan switches (type III)?

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Wait, I thought the EKII was damped? Those don't sound damped to me.

[rknize]

OP: I was pretty much in the same boat as you.  The Model M is my favorite by far, but too noisy for the home office.  At work, I made it tolerable to my coworkers by doing a grease mod.  I found the browns to be a decent compromise, but not exactly quiet.  With o-rings, browns feel much like a scissor switch and are fairly quiet.

[TexasFlood]

I have boards with Fukka Alps switches and they're crazy loud.  But I want to believe, I really do...

Looks like mine are type II "XM" simplified yype II alps and read much better things about type I which I don't have.

[thegunner100]

I'll have to agree with buying a HHKB and just taking it to work

Topres are much quieter than MX keyboards, even when you bottom out. THe other choice, as mentioned earlier, would be to buy a mx brown keyboard and get some 40A o-rings to silence them.

[Grimey]

Wait, I thought the EKII was damped? Those don't sound damped to me.

The EKII I harvested switches from is more silent than the one in that video.  I placed the switches in a Dell AT101W to use in at my new workspace, but I will have to see if I can get used to the switches as they are fairly heavy.

[Matias]

Definitely liking the idea of these new ALPS-style switches so far. How do they compare to black StrongMan switches (type III)?

The Black StrongMan switches feel great.

Ours are lighter, more tactile, and dampened to make them quieter.

[Matias]

[video=youtube;VQOA0PtIXYY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQOA0PtIXYY&feature=results_main&playnext=1&list=PL952328BC009E9E4D[/video]

How much more quiet than this?

Not sure why that one is so loud.  Maybe it's been harvested, or it could be that it wasn't miked properly.  Who knows.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Rubber dampers like in the EKII?

I don't know what BBC Micro Type I switches have, but the bottoming out impact is totally silent. However, the return sound is so loud that overall it's worse, because the keystroke sounds lag behind your typing

I've never used an EK or EKII – for me the issue with the AT101W isn't the sound, but the stiff, gungy feel compared to the fluid, clean strokes of the Fukkas in the TP3 and complicated blues. I've vaguely used some old Apple boards with tactile ALPS (Macintosh 128K and that other one) and those felt perfect.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Not sure why that one is so loud.  Maybe it's been harvested, or it could be that it wasn't miked properly.  Who knows.

All the EKII videos sound like that, i.e. glorious.

[Matias]

I have boards with Fukka Alps switches and they're crazy loud.  But I want to believe, I really do...

Looks like mine are type II "XM" simplified yype II alps and read much better things about type I which I don't have.

Yes, we tried the XM switches and didn't like them.  That's why we did our own.  That and the fear that Fuhua would stop making Fukka switches, which they now have -- early this year they stopped.

Oh, I forgot to mention, we've also eliminated the residual ping sound that Fukkas make when you hit them hard.  Lots of people hated that sound.

[Matias]

Topres are much quieter than MX keyboards, even when you bottom out. THe other choice, as mentioned earlier, would be to buy a mx brown keyboard and get some 40A o-rings to silence them.

The o-rings just silence the downstroke.  They're still noisy on the upstroke.

Sorry to nit-pick, but I've been dealing with this stuff for the past 2 years.

[Matias]

Rubber dampers like in the EKII?

Yes, they have the same basic design, with a few improvements.

I don't know what BBC Micro Type I switches have, but the bottoming out impact is totally silent. However, the return sound is so loud that overall it's worse, because the keystroke sounds lag behind your typing

You'll get the same delayed feedback with o-rings on Cherrys, because they're not dampened on the upstroke.

I've never used an EK or EKII – for me the issue with the AT101W isn't the sound, but the stiff, gungy feel compared to the fluid, clean strokes of the Fukkas in the TP3 and complicated blues. I've vaguely used some old Apple boards with tactile ALPS (Macintosh 128K and that other one) and those felt perfect.

It's a funny thing... I have a few AEKII boards and they don't all feel the same.  I don't know if it's because they're old, or if they didn't have strict enough QC standards.  Some definitely feel better than others.

[TexasFlood]

They are bright orange.  Internal structure is similar to the switches on the Apple Extended Keyboard II, but more tactile and quieter.

If so, should also be similar to the SGI Granite keyboards I used years ago and liked quite well.  I never owned one of my own but used them at work for years.  Dampened white alps IIRC, sounds promising, thanks for the info...

[Daniel Beardsmore]

My heavily worn complicated blue board feels very similar to brand new Fukkas, very smooth and clean and sharp. My only recollection of the Macintosh 128K keyboard and the ALPS PowerMac (?) board was that they were very light and smooth, like Cherry MX blue, but like all ALPS, they had a loud clack sound that makes them in many ways as good as clicky, especially because a solid clack sound is much deeper than the click sound in many cases. Complicated blues, though, have a deep, resonant click – hopefully the Tactile Pro 5 will introduce a clicky switch similar to the complicated blue …

And aluminium cases …

Then there's the black keycaps – I'd love to hear that they'll be doubleshot, but I don't believe that for a moment. All-over coated pad printing is the next best, as it doesn't dirty and break up like laser spooge, but it can all wear off in an ugly way. I don't know what Topre use for their dark gold lettering – looks like paint. I've even seen a brand new Dell Latitude laptop a couple of months back without the decal look – maybe they used all-over coating? Couldn't tell, but it was so wonderful to see that even Dell will, occasionally, make an effort over quality. Decal look is for chumps.

For white keyboards (e.g. TP3) you want dyesub, as it's inky black and smooth (if done right – Acer did it perfectly), unlike the erratic grey scarring from laser.

[Matias]

If so, should also be similar to the SGI Granite keyboards I used years ago and liked quite well.  I never owned one of my own but used them at work for years.  Dampened white alps IIRC, sounds promising, thanks for the info...

Yes, the SGI Granite keyboards used the same switches.  They're a solid solution to the noise problem.  :-)

[Matias]

My heavily worn complicated blue board feels very similar to brand new Fukkas, very smooth and clean and sharp. My only recollection of the Macintosh 128K keyboard and the ALPS PowerMac (?) board was that they were very light and smooth, like Cherry MX blue, but like all ALPS

Maybe it's just too old (25+ years) or from lack of use, but my 128K Mac keyboard has a really really heavy feel to it.  I don't remember it feeling that way when it was new, but who knows.

hopefully the Tactile Pro 5 will introduce a clicky switch similar to the complicated blue …

I don't know if I've ever used a Complicated Blue board, but I personally prefer our new switches to any I've used in the past -- with the exception of the Simplified Blacks, which felt really great, and were tactile even without the click.

Then there's the black keycaps – I'd love to hear that they'll be doubleshot, but I don't believe that for a moment. All-over coated pad printing is the next best, as it doesn't dirty and break up like laser spooge, but it can all wear off in an ugly way. I don't know what Topre use for their dark gold lettering – looks like paint. I've even seen a brand new Dell Latitude laptop a couple of months back without the decal look – maybe they used all-over coating? Couldn't tell, but it was so wonderful to see that even Dell will, occasionally, make an effort over quality. Decal look is for chumps.

I agree the decal look is just awful.  Doubleshots are incredibly expensive to tool, so I don't really see a future for them.  You basically need a seperate mold for each key legend, in addiition to overmold for the key itself.  The two best print methods I've seen are UV painting and laser when done properly.

UV painting is paint and UV material mixed together before printing on the key.  This gives you the vibrant colour of paint and the wear resistance of UV coating, without the decal look.  It's the best solution IMO.  Not many factories do it.  Not sure why.  Maybe cost.

For white keyboards (e.g. TP3) you want dyesub, as it's inky black and smooth (if done right – Acer did it perfectly), unlike the erratic grey scarring from laser.

For white keycaps, laser is amazingly good, as long as the laser is set correctly and they don't ink-fill it.  If you get that engraved look, it's because the laser operator didn't know what they were doing, or were too lazy to adjust the machine properly.

[Matias]

A couple more question(s):

Have you added rubber pads on the bottom of the keyboard?  The TP3 likes to slide around quite a bit.

I believe the TP3 had silicone pads.  We're using rubber for the TP4, which is more grippy.

Also, how does the space bar sound?  This was quite loud on the TP3.

It's quieter for sure, but it's a long piece of plastic, so it will resonate more than the smaller keys.

Very excited to try these!

:-)

[funxion]

I don't know how loud the Alps are, but I can rank some of the cherries based on my own observations:

1. Blues: 5
2. Browns: 3
3. Reds: 2.5
4. Average Rubber Dome: 2

I would say that MX browns are about 50% louder than rubber dome.

Not sure how you type, but browns are definitely not 50% louder than rubber domes. It's more like 100% ESPECIALLY if heavy typing is going on. Browns are still pretty loud if you're bottoming out, which you probably do.

Get browns with o-rings like someone else suggested.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

The two best print methods I've seen are UV painting and laser when done properly.

From what I've read here, laser has never worked for dark keys – the white spooge stains brown quickly, and has been known to crack and fall out of the grooves. Some people also complain about being able to feel the lettering; the same complaint is heard about pad printing, but if anything I actually like it.

For white keycaps, laser is amazingly good, as long as the laser is set correctly and they don't ink-fill it.  If you get that engraved look, it's because the laser operator didn't know what they were doing, or were too lazy to adjust the machine properly.

The TP3 and the AT102W are the same – all you see is scorched plastic. Plastic never looks good after you've melted it. The result is very low contrast, rough lettering. Dye sub is so much better than laser, as the edges of the lettering are sharper, you can cover solid area (e.g. the Apple logo) properly, and it's jet black. Oddly, my blue ALPS keyboard is some sort of combination of dye sub and doubleshot – I've never pulled enough keys to figure out what the method is to this madness.

Which reminds me, do Matias ALPS switches have any mitigation for keypulling?

[Daniel Beardsmore]

You can get those for ALPS switches? (It's going to be interesting to see what affect the Matias ALPS switch has on the availability of ALPS caps, which are as good as nonexistent at the moment.)

Regardless, I never cared for the "Pretend it's Star Trek where controls aren't labelled" look. Besides, the new Tactile Pro isn't being targeted at geeks – don't forget that the TP is possibly the only keyboard in the world to bear the layer three and four legends for the Mac, something rarely seen since the Space Cadet.

[terrpn]

Looking forward to the new board.......was getting ready to spring for something a little quieter for the office. My MX blues are just driving too many people crazy and that's from across the hallway. By far my fukka is about the clacky-iest, noisiest board I have- but I love here at home. I love alps, but just hate the restrictions for key choice:(

I just took a Dell Quiet Key completely apart and am soaking the crud out of it to use at the office. Pretty much "alps" like, but with a rubber dome versus a spring. People just can't take a joke...........

So we can assume a new board with "alps" switches might present the possibly of a greater selection of colors for keys in regards to alps, not to mention the switches- "very cool." Did you tell us earlier (?) what color the new board, keys will be and I'm guessing the end of summer or so for production?

Yea........decent rubber pads would be nice.

[False_Dmitry_II]

@OP
For me, people just saying that clears are obviously perfect for that because they are so much heavier switches and will "stop" you from bottoming are incorrect. The bump is so unnoticeable to me that I even bottom THOSE out. I think I even use more force on those than my space invaders or any of my alps. Sounds like you might be doing something similar. I was going to suggest an AEKII or stealing the switches from one either by opening them and swapping contents with another not-silent board or soldering. If I cared about being quiet those are the only ones so far for me that is anything even close to that.

Heck, my dad is using a browns board right now, just because of the NKRO of it and the fact that it is programmable (and has never programmed it, but then I have some of those too and haven't either). Anyway, I think he might be louder on it than the model m he was just previously using.

It's a funny thing... I have a few AEKII boards and they don't all feel the same.  I don't know if it's because they're old, or if they didn't have strict enough QC standards.  Some definitely feel better than others.

Yeah, I'm not sure what is going on for that. One of the things I've noticed is that, so far for me anyway, the ones that look like they are truly cream colored are the ones that don't feel good. The ones that look stark white (they make the complicated whites look gray) do. I've only managed to get two that were stark white and unfortunately the first one was the best I'd used before and it got parted out.

I'm quite interested in those new ones though, I just hope I don't find either the switches or the whole thing too expensive. I generally use older stuff, so that might be a lowish number to most here.

[Matias]

From what I've read here, laser has never worked for dark keys – the white spooge stains brown quickly, and has been known to crack and fall out of the grooves. Some people also complain about being able to feel the lettering; the same complaint is heard about pad printing, but if anything I actually like it.

Like I said, the key to laser is to have good quality plastic, have the laser set correctly, and not ink-fill it.  The ink-fill will always wear off.

The TP3 and the AT102W are the same – all you see is scorched plastic. Plastic never looks good after you've melted it. The result is very low contrast, rough lettering. Dye sub is so much better than laser, as the edges of the lettering are sharper, you can cover solid area (e.g. the Apple logo) properly, and it's jet black.

Apple uses laser etching on all their keyboards and they look great.

Apple not withstanding, white caps are usually lasered wrong.  The laser trace pattern for white keycaps is different from black.  Most vendors only do black keycaps, so if you give them white keys, they laser 'em like black keys and end up looking rough and unsharp.

Anyway, I don't disagree that dye sub looks good, but there's more than one way to skin a cat.

Which reminds me, do Matias ALPS switches have any mitigation for keypulling?

If you know how to use a puller, they come right off.  :-)

[Matias]

You can get those for ALPS switches? (It's going to be interesting to see what affect the Matias ALPS switch has on the availability of ALPS caps, which are as good as nonexistent at the moment.)

Blank keys in white and black are easy to source.  If you want other colours, let me know and I'll see what can be made available.

[Matias]

...I love alps, but just hate the restrictions for key choice:(

By "restrictions for key choice" do you mean colours?

So we can assume a new board with "alps" switches might present the possibly of a greater selection of colors for keys in regards to alps, not to mention the switches- "very cool." Did you tell us earlier (?) what color the new board, keys will be and I'm guessing the end of summer or so for production?

Production is happening in July.  The new boards will be white for the loud switches on Mac, silver with black keys for the quiet switches on Mac, and all black for the PC version with quiet switches.

[Matias]

Yeah, I'm not sure what is going on for that. One of the things I've noticed is that, so far for me anyway, the ones that look like they are truly cream colored are the ones that don't feel good. The ones that look stark white (they make the complicated whites look gray) do. I've only managed to get two that were stark white and unfortunately the first one was the best I'd used before and it got parted out.

The ones I dissected had click leafs with different angles.  The lower-angled ones were less tactile.  How they got that way, I'm not sure.

I'm quite interested in those new ones though, I just hope I don't find either the switches or the whole thing too expensive. I generally use older stuff, so that might be a lowish number to most here.

Resellers and Amazon will likely sell them below MSRP.  As for the switches, they'll likely sell for $100 for a package of 800 switches.

[mkawa]

Yes, the SGI Granite keyboards used the same switches.  They're a solid solution to the noise problem.  :-)

interesting! i've used one of those, but it was quite a long time ago. in fact, i think there's still one hanging out around the lab...

[TexasFlood]

Saw the eye from Matias' avatar but wasn't really focusing on it. Just came to me it's the Bladerunner opening scene eye belonging to special effects guy Richard Rippel. Nice avatar.

[Findecanor]

A new keyboard switch sounds very interesting, especially the parts about it being soft, silent and very tactile. I often use Cherry MX switches with dental bands for dampening, but they don't dampen on the upstroke.

What name will Matias' new keyboard switch have?

Will the switch's casing be compatible with Alps? Same size spring?

[didjamatic]

[video=youtube;VQOA0PtIXYY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQOA0PtIXYY&feature=results_main&playnext=1&list=PL952328BC009E9E4D[/video]

How much more quiet than this?

That video sounds nothing like dampened ALPS.  I did a full switch swap on a SIIG Minitouch to go to Dampened ALPS from an AEKII link here, sorry my pics got broken when I took my site down.  It's a very quiet keyboard and I love those switches.

[TexasFlood]

That video sounds nothing like dampened ALPS.  I did a full switch swap on a SIIG Minitouch to go to Dampened ALPS from an AEKII link here, sorry my pics got broken when I took my site down.  It's a very quiet keyboard and I love those switches.

What about this one, different keyboard from same review site (mrinterface.com).
Should be same switches and sounds a bit more like what I remember.

[False_Dmitry_II]

That sounds closer. But still pretty far off. Just for fun I typed the same sentence he did on an AEKII that I put regular white click leaves as well as the regular sliders. It sounded the same. Maybe he just types like superman?

[TexasFlood]

That sounds closer. But still pretty far off. Just for fun I typed the same sentence he did on an AEKII that I put regular white click leaves as well as the regular sliders. It sounded the same. Maybe he just types like superman?

Could be the typing style, condition of keyboard, mic setup, etc.

There are other AEKII videos that are quieter, like:

[Resaebiunne]

So, I broke down and bought a Rosewill keyboard from newegg with the MX browns.  We'll see how it goes, here's hoping.  If not, I think I'll just look into scissor switches.

[didjamatic]

I'm sure you'll like Browns.  The downside to an AEKII is you need an ADB to usb adapter for most systems, which tacks on $20-50 for a good one like the Griffin imate

The AEK original and II had keys made out of a material (and in consistency) that is very unique and contributes to feel and sound.  It's hard to explain but it's like the plastic was more foamy when made so it had a texture feel to it and sound that is very different and even sound absorbing compared to most key caps.  The AEK had orange ALPS, I have one here and it's a dream to type on.  The AEK II had primarily dampened ALPS and is also nice.  I've done multiple switch swaps with dampened for their quietness.  One more weird thing, the nubs aren't on F, J, they are on D and K because Steve Jobs liked to be different.

[Findecanor]

I didn't see anybody say it before, but: you could get a cheap Dell AT101W and a AEKII and transplant the switches .. or just the sliders from the AEKII to the Dell keyboard.

My own AT101W has dampened sliders from a AEKII but springs and click leaves from a third keyboard to get clicky dampened switches. It is quieter than my dampened Cherry Blues, but I like the Cherry Blues better because the click point is lower down in the stroke, they are smoother on off-center key presses and the starting force is higher while still being quite soft. The Cherry MX switches have higher starting forces simply because they have a longer springs which are in tension when the switches are at rest. You can't get the same feeling with shorter springs.

[fohat.digs]

Grimey did that here

http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?32362-My-AT101W-Collection

and seemed to get a result that he was pleased with.

edit - oops, sorry, he was already down there. I had skipped a page

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Apple uses laser etching on all their keyboards and they look great.

You mean that your technique has improved since the TP3?

Like I said, the key to laser is to have good quality plastic, have the laser set correctly, and not ink-fill it.  The ink-fill will always wear off.

How does that work on black? WASD uses plastic that lightens from laser heating, but from what I've seen you just don't get anything remotely close to the pure white of pad printing or doubleshot, or the black of dye sub. Take the first image on their Gallery page: white comes out beige, and black comes out mid grey. That seems to be a really bad shot of the black, though, but the "white" comes out almost Topre gold in some photos.

The lasering on the TP3 is just scorched plastic grey, and rough, basically the same as the Dell AT102W from the mid 90s. I seem to recall that the Apple Wired Aluminium keyboard looks good, but I don't have mine to hand.

White laser lettering is always infilled, but it stains readily.

If you know how to use a puller, they come right off.  :-)

No, they don't. ALPS caps are exceptionally tight, though once you've removed a cap you can find that it comes off a lot easier the next time – Acers work like that.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Grimey did that here

http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?32362-My-AT101W-Collection

and seemed to get a result that he was pleased with.

I picked up an NTC 6153EN earlier, XT/AT switchable 102-key, "FOR 8088 & 80286" according to the label. I didn't realise until later that it's [strike]Type II Simplified[/strike] Type IV Simplified, surprising to see simplifieds in something that old. I realised something was wrong after I noticed that it felt very similar to my Acers, and then spotted the dreadful four tabs around the switch The switches have a fantastic resonant sound and a warm, melodic ping, almost as good as complicated blues, but it has that nasty XM feel. Not as bad as brand new XMs, but I can't tell how worn it is – all the keycaps still have their surface texture pattern, so it's either lightly used or really good plastic.

I'm really curious what it is that has been done to make XMs nice, as opinions on the green XMs are universally positive.

I'm glad to read that Matias ALPS will be coming out in "loud" versions (I presume that means undamped, rather than clicky), as Fukka is a good switch and something needs to replace them, although it sounds like XM could do the trick if you want actual clicky switches as I do at home. Except why green? Green means linear

Definitely buying the new Matias though, hopefully the ISO version will hop over to Keyboardco in short order

[didjamatic]

No, they don't. ALPS caps are exceptionally tight, though once you've removed a cap you can find that it comes off a lot easier the next time – Acers work like that.

It depends on the how tight the caps are, what environment it's been used/stored in and your technique in removing them.  With ALPS it's more important to pull them straight up than Cherries, but most can be easily removed if you do it correctly.  And I rarely used a key cap puller, just used the flat head screwdriver/bottle opener tool on a Leatherman Squirt and I could strip a keyboard in a fraction of the time it takes with key cap pullers.   The secret is to use your non-prying hand to assure the cap is coming straight up from the keyboard.  If you do that you'll seldom snap off stems or switches.

[FoxWolf1]

I'm really curious what it is that has been done to make XMs nice, as opinions on the green XMs are universally positive.

I'm glad to read that Matias ALPS will be coming out in "loud" versions (I presume that means undamped, rather than clicky), as Fukka is a good switch and something needs to replace them, although it sounds like XM could do the trick if you want actual clicky switches as I do at home. Except why green? Green means linear

Ehh, from my experience with a Ducky 1008XM, the Green XMs aren't that great. I mean yeah, they're kind of fun to use-- the click is very satisfying-- but they're not actually very good from a more practical perspective. Extreme wobbliness plus a high activation point meant that I was making far too many errors when typing (and during RTS gaming), while the return wasn't fast enough for them to be a first-class FPS or arcade-game switch. Oh, and they're not terribly durable, either. All in all, I wouldn't buy another keyboard with them.

For actual use, the tactile blacks in my D07 are significantly better.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

It depends on the how tight the caps are, what environment it's been used/stored in and your technique in removing them.  With ALPS it's more important to pull them straight up than Cherries, but most can be easily removed if you do it correctly.

I do pull straight up with a wire keypuller. They're just notoriously stiff – something about the keycap interface. Just figured that maybe there was a way to make them easier to remove, given how many people have trouble with ALPS caps.

[Matias]

Saw the eye from Matias' avatar but wasn't really focusing on it. Just came to me it's the Bladerunner opening scene eye belonging to special effects guy Richard Rippel. Nice avatar.

Thanks.  :-)

Bladerunner was the first movie I ever saw that changed my outlook on the future.  Totally blew my mind!

[Matias]

I do pull straight up with a wire keypuller. They're just notoriously stiff – something about the keycap interface. Just figured that maybe there was a way to make them easier to remove, given how many people have trouble with ALPS caps.

Oh, maybe that's why.  Better to use a plastic puller...

1)  Put your index finger through the ring.

2)  Push the puller overtop of the keycap.

3)  Pinch the prongs together with your thumb and middle finger, then pull straight up swiftly.

The trick is pinching the prongs together before you pull up.  That approach works for me every time.

[Matias]

What name will Matias' new keyboard switch have?

We haven't decided on the name yet, but you can call them Matias Orange and Matias White switches for now -- whites being the traditional clicky ones.

Will the switch's casing be compatible with Alps? Same size spring?

Externally, they are identical in size and pin position to ALPS.  Internally, the spring spec is different and the leaf cavity is a little tighter (to eliminate noise).

[Matias]

One more weird thing, the nubs aren't on F, J, they are on D and K because Steve Jobs liked to be different.

Actually, Steve wasn't at Apple at that time.

The reason for the nubs on D and K was to be consistent with the nub on the number pad -- all under the middle finger.

[TexasFlood]

We haven't decided on the name yet, but you can call them Matias Orange and Matias White switches for now -- whites being the traditional clicky ones.

Externally, they are identical in size and pin position to ALPS.  Internally, the spring spec is different and the leaf cavity is a little tighter (to eliminate noise).

Nice, I think a lot of us were wondering about pin compatibility with old ALPS which I don't recall having seen addressed earlier in this thread. Now I would have expected them to be pin compatible but never good to assume anything. Not hard to imagine some of us replacing some clacky XMs with these from what you've described. Thanks.

[Matias]

I'm glad to read that Matias ALPS will be coming out in "loud" versions (I presume that means undamped, rather than clicky), as Fukka is a good switch and something needs to replace them,

Yes, we expect our switch will replace whatever is left of the Fukka market.  The loud (white) switch will be clicky and undampened.  The quiet (orange) switch will be dampened and tactile.

You can recreate the feel of the old Black ALPS by matching up the leaf of an orange switch with the slider of a white.

Definitely buying the new Matias though, hopefully the ISO version will hop over to Keyboardco in short order

Tell them you want them and see what they say...  :-)

[Daniel Beardsmore]

You can recreate the feel of the old Black ALPS by matching up the leaf of an orange switch with the slider of a white.

Complicated black ALPS is horrible – why would I want to do that?

Tell them you want them and see what they say...  :-)

Wait … there are no plans yet for Keyboardco to add the board to the existing range of Matias products that they carry? Are they even aware of this board yet?

[Matias]

Complicated black ALPS is horrible – why would I want to do that?

Actually, I really liked the Simplified Black ALPS, but we don't expect there will be much demand for them.  They would be in-between White and Orange for tactility and noise.

Wait … there are no plans yet for Keyboardco to add the board to the existing range of Matias products that they carry? Are they even aware of this board yet?

Well, technically the product is not announced yet.  I don't think our sales manager has talked to them about it yet.

[Matias]

Nice, I think a lot of us were wondering about pin compatibility with old ALPS which I don't recall having seen addressed earlier in this thread. Now I would have expected them to be pin compatible but never good to assume anything. Not hard to imagine some of us replacing some clacky XMs with these from what you've described. Thanks.

Yes, I've already gotten one PM from a GHer wanting to buy switches for their existing boards.  The new switches are definitely pin compatible with original ALPS and XM.

[Djuzuh]

When and where will we be able to buy the switchs? .

[False_Dmitry_II]

Yes, I've already gotten one PM from a GHer wanting to buy switches for their existing boards.  The new switches are diffinitely pin compatible with original ALPS and XM.

I'm not surprised. There's generally not much on the market being currently made that isn't just cherry. Some people don't like those much.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

I may be getting confused, as on double-checking, this video is of the original Extended Keyboard, so it's tactile and non-damped, which is why it doesn't sound damped

[video=youtube;afSz616PpwM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afSz616PpwM[/video]

It will be interesting to see if we ever get another undamped tactile ALPS keyboard again – the only one in recent years seems to be the ABS M1. The AT102W doesn't quite live up to the precise sound that I was expecting, as it sounds a bit loose and muffled.

However, with the high-pitched ping removed from the new switches, could we see the return to the deep but warm resonance of blue complicated ALPS? My FILCO Zero XM had a very empty, dry sound that lacked the character that even a good tactile switch should have, such as the AEK. Type IV simplified (which I just picked up on Sunday) seems to be in the middle in terms of sound.

[cactux]

would you be able to provide some charts comparing your switches against the mx (blue,red,brown, black) and the topres?. It will be nice to see them all of them side by side

[Matias]

I may be getting confused, as on double-checking, this video is of the original Extended Keyboard, so it's tactile and non-damped, which is why it doesn't sound damped

[video=youtube;afSz616PpwM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afSz616PpwM[/video]

It will be interesting to see if we ever get another undamped tactile ALPS keyboard again – the only one in recent years seems to be the ABS M1. The AT102W doesn't quite live up to the precise sound that I was expecting, as it sounds a bit loose and muffled.

However, with the high-pitched ping removed from the new switches, could we see the return to the deep but warm resonance of blue complicated ALPS? My FILCO Zero XM had a very empty, dry sound that lacked the character that even a good tactile switch should have, such as the AEK. Type IV simplified (which I just picked up on Sunday) seems to be in the middle in terms of sound.

The closest to this is Black ALPS.  It is tactile, but doesn't click and is not dampened.  The sound is from bottoming out, and the upstrokes.

You could create this by putting together our Orange click leaf with the slider from our White switch.

[Matias]

would you be able to provide some charts comparing your switches against the mx (blue,red,brown, black) and the topres?. It will be nice to see them all of them side by side

What would you want shown in the charts?

[Matias]

When and where will we be able to buy the switchs? .

They'll be available when the actual keyboards ship -- in about 2 months.  You'll be ablt to buy them directly from our website

[cactux]

^ The activation forces of your switch, beside the MXs and Topres

[TexasFlood]

What would you want shown in the charts?

^ The activation forces of your switch, beside the MXs and Topres

Something like these but for the New Matias switch?

Cherry MX Brown


ALPS

[cactux]

Are both units the same in both charts? What about red, black, blue mx

[TexasFlood]

They are in PDFs at the Cherry web site, in the wikis here and other places.

For example, below from WASD

[TexasFlood]

Are both units the same in both charts? What about red, black, blue mx

I believe units are the same yes.

The charts are available in PDFs at the Cherry web site, in the wikis here and other places.

For example, below from WASD

[hasu]

They'll be available when the actual keyboards ship -- in about 2 months.  You'll be ablt to buy them directly from our website

Great!
I'm excited at new switches. I'll keep my eyes open to watch this thread and your site.

BTW, I'm a fan of your Matias half-qwerty method. I tried a half-qwerty layer on my DIY keyboard and I became a fan of it.

[TexasFlood]

BTW, I'm a fan of your Matias half-qwerty method. I tried a half-qwerty layer on my DIY keyboard and I became a fan of it.

Thanks for mentioning that. Guess I've been in a cave, never heard of this but googled it and pretty cool stuff.

[Matias]

Something like these but for the New Matias switch?

Cherry MX Brown

Show Image

ALPS

Show Image

Yes, we'll be including force charts like these when we release the final spec sheet for the new switches.

We weren't planning on doing charts comparing to Cherry and Topre, but I suppose we could release those separately.  We were more focused on capturing/improving the traditional ALPS feel than relating them in any way to how Cherry or Topre switches feel -- people who like those can buy the real thing.

[Matias]

Are both units the same in both charts? What about red, black, blue mx

Cherry uses cN (centinewtons) as the unit of measure in their charts, while ALPS has traditionally used gf (gram force), but they're almost the same.

cN = gf x 0.980665

Here's a calculator...  http://www.conversion-website.com/force/gram-force_to_centinewton.html

[Matias]

BTW, I'm a fan of your Matias half-qwerty method. I tried a half-qwerty layer on my DIY keyboard and I became a fan of it.

Thanks!

I'm still a little disappointed that it didn't catch on in a bigger way, but I guess one-handed typing is cooler in theory than in practice.  :-)

[Matias]

Thanks for mentioning that. Guess I've been in a cave, never heard of this but googled it and pretty cool stuff.

You're not alone in that cave.  :-)

There's a flash demo here, if you want to try it...  http://www.matias.ca/halfkeyboard/demo

[didjamatic]

Actually, Steve wasn't at Apple at that time.

The reason for the nubs on D and K was to be consistent with the nub on the number pad -- all under the middle finger.

Ha, I never thought of that but you're right.  Schooled.

[Matias]

Ducky is on the fence on whether or not to continue producing the XM switch keyboards.  They might like to discontinue them and use these instead.  It also wouldn't compete with the Matias product because I doubt you will sell a tenkeyless version.

We're not worried about competition.  We have our customers and they have theirs.  If they want to buy our switches, we're happy to sell them to Ducky.

XMs were never very good.  I think the only reason they ever got made was because Fuhua didn't care enough about Fukkas not to let them die.  There's lots of great legacy technology out there, but if the people in control don't give a sh*t (or aren't competent), it can disappear and companies can die.  Most companies are run by golfers.

[Matias]

Ha, I never thought of that but you're right.  Schooled.

I'm just glad everyone ultimately agreed on one standard.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Hm ... I just set up my complicated blue ALPS keyboard for a few minutes. Bearing in mind that I've been using Cherry MX brown all day, it's surprisingly stiff and heavy-going, almost as bad as Type IV simplifieds.

I disconnected it and plugged in my TP3 instead as a comparison – Fukkas are definitely lighter in force. The top-heavy force curve is still tough on your fingers, but it's noticeably lighter than old blues.

How do tactile Matias ALPS compare to Fukkas in feel?

I was, and still am considering trying MX clears, which are reported to be stiffer but no more tactile than browns, which sounds good, as you wouldn't get that tripping-over-your-own-fingers problem with the lightness, nor the jarring of sharp tactile points (clicky ALPS and less so Cherry blues), likewise it's not linear, which I don't care for.

[Matias]

The new switches are lighter than the TP3, and feel more consistent.  Fukkas are rated at 70±25 gf -- which means they can be as heavy as 95 gf and as light as 45 gf.  Not the greatest.

Our new switches are rated at 60±5 gf -- which means they're between 55 and 65 gf.  That's just enough to hold the weight of your fingers on the keyboard.

If it's so light that it doesn't have enough resistance to hold the weight of your hands, then YOU are actually exerting force to prevent the keys going down -- which is VERY bad.  You get tired quicker and are more susceptible to injury.

This is why I don't like the lighter Cherrys.  Unless you have really light hands, they don't provide enough resistence to hold them up.

[Djuzuh]

The new switches are lighter than the TP3, and feel more consistent.  Fukkas are rated at 70±25 gf -- which means they can be as heavy as 95 gf and as light as 45 gf.  Not the greatest.

Our new switches are rated at 60±5 gf -- which means they're between 55 and 65 gf.  That's just enough to hold the weight of your fingers on the keyboard.

If it's so light that it doesn't have enough resistance to hold the weight of your hands, then YOU are actually exerting force to prevent the keys going down -- which is VERY bad.  You get tired quicker and are more susceptible to injury.

This is why I don't like the lighter Cherrys.  Unless you have really light hands, the lighter switches don't provide enough resistence to hold them up.

That's very interesting, I've never thought about this ! I just don't hold my fingers all the time above the keys xD.

Also, will you provide a cheap board wiith those new switchs? not necessarely of bad quality, just the bare minimum to get a low priced brand new mechanical keyboard

[TexasFlood]

Saw the eye from Matias' avatar but wasn't really focusing on it. Just came to me it's the Bladerunner opening scene eye belonging to special effects guy Richard Rippel. Nice avatar.

Thanks.  :-)

Bladerunner was the first movie I ever saw that changed my outlook on the future.  Totally blew my mind!

You inspired me, found some wallpaper and put that big eye as background on my tablet.  Bladerunner is a classic, told my son to go see Prometheus as it is the first Science Fiction from Ridley Scott since Bladerunner 30 years ago.

[Matias]

Also, will you provide a cheap board wiith those new switchs? not necessarely of bad quality, just the bare minimum to get a low priced brand new mechanical keyboard

How cheap do you mean?

[Matias]

You inspired me, found some wallpaper and put that big eye as background on my tablet.  Bladerunner is a classic, told my son to go see Prometheus as it is the first Science Fiction from Ridley Scott since Bladerunner 30 years ago.

Yes, Prometheus is looking very good.  Same attention to detail that helped make the first one great.

[Djuzuh]

How cheap do you mean?

I don't have a specific number in my head. Maybe approximately 50$ if it's possible ?

Just a basic working alps keyboard.

[Matias]

$50 is less than a distributor would pay, so no that's not possible.

Depending on features and country of manufacture, a mechanical keyboard costs approximately 3x to 5x what a rubber dome keyboard would cost to make.

At $50 end customer cost, you're in rubber dome territory.

[Djuzuh]

We've seen some rosewell deals at ~56$ and some new cherry keyboards sell at ~50€ in europe. And your switchs seemed to cost less than cherry MX switchs

BTW: if you are interested in using GH as some sort of communication medium, you could ask to get a vendor subforum !
This way, your visibility will rise, and I'll know where I can follow your announcements

[didjamatic]

We've seen some rosewell deals at ~56$ and some new cherry keyboards sell at ~50€ in europe. And your switchs seemed to cost less than cherry MX switchs

BTW: if you are interested in using GH as some sort of communication medium, you could ask to get a vendor subforum !
This way, your visibility will rise, and I'll know where I can follow your announcements

Are you seriously hounding a manufacturer who designed a keyboard from the ground up including redesign of mechanical switches to justify charging over $50 for a keyboard?  

Go design your own keyboard from scratch including switches and sell it for $50.

[Djuzuh]

Are you seriously hounding a manufacturer who designed a keyboard from the ground up including redesign of mechanical switches to justify charging over $50 for a keyboard?  

Go design your own keyboard from scratch including switches and sell it for $50.

I never meant to be the slightest way mean or whatever to him. I'm just interested in his thoughts, and tried to hold a conversation, as I*have much respect for him and his products. My words are only driven by curiosity.

If I*appeared to have any other intention, please excuse myself, and allow me to blame the fact I'm not a native english speaker. Even though I'm perfectly able to express myself, I don't have enough practice to perceive the little details which give out the tone of my phrases. That, or it was just clumsiness and/or social ineptie from my side.

[Djuzuh]

Both the Rosewill and Cherry 3800 are pieces of crap.  For every defective Filco there are 10 Rosewill's with snapped USB connectors and mushy switches (despite everyone assuming the same factory does the same number of QC checks on both boards.)

Until a competitor comes out with a quiet tactile mechanical switch that rivals this, Matias should set prices to where he can make a profit and stay in business.

Thank you. That's sort of what I wanted to know. I wasn't aware of those differences. I've only heard positive reviews from those boards.

[Matias]

We've seen some rosewell deals at ~56$ and some new cherry keyboards sell at ~50€ in europe. And your switchs seemed to cost less than cherry MX switchs

Well, they're certainly free to do that if they like.  If they want to buy our switches and make a cheapie board, that's up to them.

However, I can tell you they're not making very much with prices that low, and there's no way they can have resellers.  They'd have to sell direct from their website, like Dell.

BTW: if you are interested in using GH as some sort of communication medium, you could ask to get a vendor subforum !
This way, your visibility will rise, and I'll know where I can follow your announcements

Thanks.  Will have to look into that.

[mkawa]

PM or email imav to get a vendor subforum. we love giving vendors visibility here, so there shouldn't be an issue.

and yes, rosewill is newegg's house brand. those boards are ODM'd to hit that price point, and unfortunately it does show in some ways (not that they're bad deals, but they're not rugged and/or original enough for some).

quite interested in the new switches!

regarding force charts, if you have an accurate measurement device (and presumably you guys do), one thing the community could really use is some nice empirical force charts of common switches. it would be a huge contribution that we would be eternally grateful for

[Matias]

I never meant to be the slightest way mean or whatever to him. I'm just interested in his thoughts, and tried to hold a conversation, as I*have much respect for him and his products. My words are only driven by curiosity.

If I*appeared to have any other intention, please excuse myself, and allow me to blame the fact I'm not a native english speaker. Even though I'm perfectly able to express myself, I don't have enough practice to perceive the little details which give out the tone of my phrases. That, or it was just clumsiness and/or social ineptie from my side.

No offence taken.

The deals you saw were probably temporary promotions, during seasonal periods like Christmas or Back-to-School.  If the normal prices are that low, then the item is likely of very low quality, or perhaps not even genuine.  I know there are companies in China making fake Cherry switches.  If the price is too low, you may not be getting the real deal.

[TexasFlood]

Both the Rosewill and Cherry 3800 are pieces of crap.  For every defective Filco there are 10 Rosewill's with snapped USB connectors and mushy switches (despite everyone assuming the same factory does the same number of QC checks on both boards.)

Thank you. That's sort of what I wanted to know. I wasn't aware of those differences. I've only heard positive reviews from those boards.

I have two Rosewills, an original blue and a new red. They're both fine.  mini-USB connectors probably aren't robust enough to use for something like that but so far mine is fine and I don't expect to have a problem if I'm careful. These seem to be love it or hate it boards, few in the middle. I love mine.

[Matias]

PM or email imav to get a vendor subforum. we love giving vendors visibility here, so there shouldn't be an issue.

Thanks, will do!

and yes, rosewill is newegg's house brand. those boards are ODM'd to hit that price point, and unfortunately it does show in some ways (not that they're bad deals, but they're not rugged and/or original enough for some).

Ah okay, I didn't know that.  That's very interesting...

Basically, this means that they don't know how to design keyboards themselves.  They just contract with a factory to rebrand one of the factory's designs.  This is risky, because factories are rarely any good at design -- there's always some flaw or mistake they don't bother fixing.

Many factories don't care very much, and if the customer isn't knowledgeable enough to know what can go wrong, bad things can happen and you get very uneven quality control.  One production run could be perfect, while another could be a total disaster.

The bottom line is that they need to watch their vendors like hawks, and companies who don't know how to do that, often have their customers suffering the consequences.

quite interested in the new switches!

regarding force charts, if you have an accurate measurement device (and presumably you guys do), one thing the community could really use is some nice empirical force charts of common switches. it would be a huge contribution that we would be eternally grateful for

Okay, I'll see what we can do.  There are a lot of different switches out there, but we can certainly include the usual suspects.

[Djuzuh]

Thank you for your complementary information.

Also, will the european distribution for the new boards be assured by the keyboard compagny ?

[mkawa]

Ah okay, I didn't know that.  That's very interesting...

Basically, this means that they don't know how to design keyboards themselves.  They just contract with a factory to rebrand one of the factory's designs.  This is risky, because factories are rarely any good at design -- there's always some flaw or mistake they don't bother fixing.

Many factories don't care very much, and if the customer isn't knowledgeable enough to know what can go wrong, bad things can happen and you get very uneven quality control.  One production run could be perfect, while another could be a total disaster.

The bottom line is that they need to watch their vendors like hawks, and companies who don't know how to do that, often have their customers suffering the consequences.

while this is true, we often recommend the rosewill around these parts because the ODM is costar, the same company that builds filco boards, and generally a pretty reliable manufacturer.

that said, the filco and rosewill designs are not identical, and the subtle differences in build and QC do add up.

[Matias]

Thank you for your complementary information.

Also, will the european distribution for the new boards be assured by the keyboard compagny ?

Yes, I expect they will when they eventually hear about it.  :-)

[Matias]

while this is true, we often recommend the rosewill around these parts because the ODM is costar, the same company that builds filco boards, and generally a pretty reliable manufacturer.

that said, the filco and rosewill designs are not identical, and the subtle differences in build and QC do add up.

Costar doesn't own a factory, so how good they are depends a lot on which factory they're using.

I know that the factory Costar uses for Filco is very good.  I don't know which factory they use for Rosewill.  If it's not the same one, that may account for the quality differences.

[mkawa]

oh, i see

i was under the impression that costar was the trade name of the factory. this is very much new information to us.

i've only owned a filco, personally, and it was pretty awesome, so i don't really know, but people have said good things about other costar ODMd boards so i assumed...

[Matias]

oh, i see

i was under the impression that costar was the trade name of the factory. this is very much new information to us.

This sort of thing happens a lot more in Taiwan than in China.

[Matias]

So Matias, when do you think the earliest you will be able to post pictures of this new board?

It'll look like the Tactile Pro, but a different colour -- black for PC, silver with black keys for Mac.

[variant]

Will the keyboard ping and how will the orange switches feel compared to the Cherry MX brown switches?

[rknize]

Can we start a fresh topic for this?  This thread has been thoroughly hijaaked as it is.

Edit: I'm mainly suggesting this because it's an interesting discussion that's been hidden in a thread about a fairly typical question.

[Djuzuh]

Matias seems to ask for a vendor forum, so we'll be able to displace this there \o/

[rknize]

In the meantime, he could start a new thread in keyboards and the mods can move these posts over there.  If he ends up with a vendor forum, then that thread could be moved there.

There are probably others who would be interested in this and wouldn't think to click on "another quiet mechanical keyboard thread".  

[Djuzuh]

yeah, like me !

Thank god for the spy and the link ripster put up on reddit and DT.

EDIT: thanks rknize, fixed it.

[rknize]

DeskHack?

[Matias]

Will the keyboard ping and how will the orange switches feel compared to the Cherry MX brown switches?

It won't ping.  We eliminated the ping.  They are quieter and more tactile than the MX brown switches, but still feel pretty light.  If you like tactile, they feel better than the Cherrys.

[variant]

It won't ping.  We eliminated the ping.  They are quieter and more tactile than the MX brown switches, but still feel pretty light.  If you like tactile, they feel better than the Cherrys.

I am neutral on tactile feel as I am new to mechanical keyboards and don't know what to make of the various switches. What do you mean by light? How much force to bottom out compared to the MX brown switches?

How much will these keyboards cost?

[Matias]

Can we start a fresh topic for this?  This thread has been thoroughly hijaaked as it is.

Edit: I'm mainly suggesting this because it's an interesting discussion that's been hidden in a thread about a fairly typical question.

Well, normally I would agree, but neither the switches nor the keyboards are available yet, so it seems a bit premature.

Also, I don't want to answer all the same questions again in another thread.

[Matias]

I am neutral on tactile feel as I am new to mechanical keyboards and don't know what to make of the various switches. What do you mean by light? How much force to bottom out compared to the MX brown switches?

How much will these keyboards cost?

You're asking questions I've already answered in this thread.  You should have a look at my earlier posts.

MSRP will be $149 but online resellers generally sell for less.  A Google search on the old Tactile Pro will give you an idea of what the new boards will cost...

http://www.google.com/products/catalog?cid=14252232372741270049

[Daniel Beardsmore]

It won't ping.  We eliminated the ping.

Awwwww … Not even a teensy little bit of ping? :°(

I am neutral on tactile feel as I am new to mechanical keyboards and don't know what to make of the various switches. What do you mean by light? How much force to bottom out compared to the MX brown switches?

MX brown is … strange. It's a weird wannabe-linear affair. It's definitely not linear, but it's a fence-sitter between linear and tactile.

The only keyboard I've used that gets the the tactility balance right is Topre variable: it's the perfect medium weight, smooth travel, smooth tactile point, and soft landing for anyone who bottoms out the switches. The down sides include very few keycap options, ridiculous price tag, and dominess – I've gone back to MX browns out of preference for a "clear" feel instead of the inevitable mushiness of even the world's best domes. However, my fingers and hands in general are lately feeling really hammered and jarred-to-death from Cherry, so maybe I need to revert to Topre for a while. I'm concerned that Cherry MX is what's giving me pain in my hands, as it co-incided with switching to mechanical keyboards two years ago. I'm not sure I'm suited to anything but domes :/

Cherry MX blue is slightly (but not usefully) stiffer than brown, and more tactile, but it's noisy, and that's a deal breaker for many, and the click sound is a bit pathetic. MX clears, apparently now out of production, seem to be the same as complicated black ALPS (Dell AT10* series), in that they're no more tactile, just stiffer, but black ALPS don't have that clean feeling of Cherry MX and clicky ALPS; instead, they feel mushy like domes, and they're barely any more tactile than MX brown. I don't think clears are that bad, but I haven't tried them yet.

My hope is that Matias tactile ALPS have the sharp, clear feeling of clicky ALPS, something that no-one has managed to achieve thus far in a tactile, non-clicky switch. Ideally I'd suggest 55 g for that force curve, but it's 60 g so I'll have to wait to see whether the force is excessive.

Ultimately I'm hoping for a switch with the smooth tactile curve of domes/buckling spring without the mush of domes or the excessive stiffness of BS, but that could be many years away. ALPS is the most brutal switch on the planet, after all

[variant]

I have been thinking on what type of keyboard would definitely fit my needs as I game a lot. I decided on brown or red Cherry switches simply because they weren't loud and required less force than black switches. It ended up being brown since the keyboard I bought is currently only available in brown so that is all I have to compare other switches to. I do like the feel of the brown switches. I generally bottom out when I type simply from habit of using rubber dome. One thing I've noticed though is that I am not bottoming out as much despite only using this keyboard for a day. Right now my biggest concern is the loud pinging noise I get on a handful of my keys and I am on the border of RMAing it because of it.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Within each switch is one (buckling spring), two (Cherry MX) or three (ALPS) springs, so it's to be expected that you'll get ringing sounds from the switches. Matias's concern was that the TP3 uses Fukka ALPS switches that have the worst ping of all, but I got out my TP3 earlier and it didn't bother me. A bit of ping gives the board a nice resonant metallic sound, although the Cherry MX brown ping isn't the best.

You may get lucky if you return the board, but if not you've just blown their profit margin trying to fight the inevitability that most switches make metallic, springy noises.

I'm worried that Matias have eliminated ping entirely, because I was annoyed that my XM ALPS FILCO Zero had no ping at all, and it sounded too "dry" and dead. I will be sad if there's no ping.

[variant]

He did say he eliminated the ping. I would assume that means completely.

[TexasFlood]

He did say he eliminated the ping. I would assume that means completely.

I would agree, and I won't miss the ping personally.  If I want ping I can use my bucking spring, I want a nice keyboard that is quiet as possible with good tactile feel.

[Matias]

I'm worried that Matias have eliminated ping entirely, because I was annoyed that my XM ALPS FILCO Zero had no ping at all, and it sounded too "dry" and dead. I will be sad if there's no ping.

You may be sad.  :-)

However, the TP3 is still available in the UK layout, and it has the ping.

[mkawa]

this seems like a great discussion to inaugurate the new matias vendor forum with!

http://geekhack.org/forumdisplay.php?103-Matias

edgar, would you like to do the honors?

[Daniel Beardsmore]

He did say he eliminated the ping. I would assume that means completely.

It can be interpreted to mean that the keyboard now sounds like pure plastic, or that only the excessive ringing ("ping") has been eliminated. "ping" seems to refer to the sound of switches when they're loud enough to be distinctly noticeable, i.e. the point when it crosses a person's annoyance threshold; a lack of "ping" doesn't mean that the sound isn't there – it is.

[Matias]

It can be interpreted to mean that the keyboard now sounds like pure plastic, or that only the excessive ringing ("ping") has been eliminated. "ping" seems to refer to the sound of switches when they're loud enough to be distinctly noticeable, i.e. the point when it crosses a person's annoyance threshold; a lack of "ping" doesn't mean that the sound isn't there – it is.

It seems like everybody has a different definition of "ping"...

The ping I mean is that residual ringing sound you get when you type on a Fukka board with above average intensity.  The spring wires are too thin, so all the 100+ springs in each switch on the keyboard vibrate simultaneously for a while after you do a keystroke.

Normally only the key you press should make a noise.  The chorus of springs is not supposed to happen.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Phew

[Matias]

this seems like a great discussion to inaugurate the new matias vendor forum with!

http://geekhack.org/forumdisplay.php?103-Matias

edgar, would you like to do the honors?

Okay, I've started another thread in the new Matias Vendor Forum, with a brief summary of what's been covered so far...

http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?32769-New-switches-from-Matias-2-years-in-the-making

[Resaebiunne]

Alright, so I got my Rosewill RK9000 with cherry MX browns.  So far, I like it!  It types similar to the AT101W, but it's a bit more smooth and the keys are a lot lighter.  The key presses are definitely lighter than my Model M too.  It's actually kind of interesting: because of the apparent difference in key weight, it seems I'm making a bit more typos than normal and my typing speed isn't the same as with my other boards.  As for noise though, it's less noisy than the AT101W and the model M.  It is still noisier than my cheap rubber dome at work.  So, the question remains as to whether or not it will pass the decibel test.  I'll bring the board to work on Monday and find out.  If I could learn to type quickly without bottoming out, this keyboard would be very silent, but with the lighter keypresses, I'm not sure that's gonna happen.  Am I happy with my purchase?  Yes.  This is the first mechanical keyboard I've bought new, and I'm sure my collection will grow in time.

[rknize]

Welcome back, OP.  

Your experience is pretty close to mine and others.  After a few days I found I could type faster overall, though I also mistyped more than normal.  The light keys are not forgiving in that way.  After a while and after acquiring a few other boards, you'll find that you adapt to the different feel of different boards pretty quickly...like within a few minutes.

It's like learning to ride a motorcycle.  It's different than a bicycle, but you still remember how to ride the bicycle afterwards.

[TotalChaos]

The new switches are lighter than the TP3, and feel more consistent.  Fukkas are rated at 70±25 gf -- which means they can be as heavy as 95 gf and as light as 45 gf.  Not the greatest.

Our new switches are rated at 60±5 gf -- which means they're between 55 and 65 gf.  That's just enough to hold the weight of your fingers on the keyboard.

If it's so light that it doesn't have enough resistance to hold the weight of your hands, then YOU are actually exerting force to prevent the keys going down -- which is VERY bad.  You get tired quicker and are more susceptible to injury.

Thank you very very very very very much for having enough brainpower available to you that you actually think about ergonomics.  This places you 30 lightyears ahead of most ppl.

OTOH please don't get a big head about my compliment as I am quite certain that you have not thought about ergonomics nearly as much as you should. 

This is why I don't like the lighter Cherrys.  Unless you have really light hands, they don't provide enough resistence to hold them up.

I have never had a problem with accidentally activating keys on my Cherry MX Red keyboard.

I did a test just now:

I gently placed my hands on the keyboard then let them relax and place all of their weight into the keys.  Text editor running.
Out of 5 tests I only actuated a key once: The i key actuated and repeated across the screen.

The reason a key sometimes actuates is that my hand is not perfectly flat so sometimes there can be a pressure point that is enough to actuate.

[TotalChaos]

Basically, this means that they don't know how to design keyboards themselves.  They just contract with a factory to rebrand one of the factory's designs.  This is risky, because factories are rarely any good at design -- there's always some flaw or mistake they don't bother fixing.

Many factories don't care very much, and if the customer isn't knowledgeable enough to know what can go wrong, bad things can happen and you get very uneven quality control.  One production run could be perfect, while another could be a total disaster.

The bottom line is that they need to watch their vendors like hawks, and companies who don't know how to do that, often have their customers suffering the consequences.

2 intelligent comments from the same manufacturer!  Respect*=2;
Thank you for knowing this.
I was trying to explain this in another vendor subforum and all I got was ridicule from some (idiotic) users.

quite interested in the new switches!

regarding force charts, if you have an accurate measurement device (and presumably you guys do), one thing the community could really use is some nice empirical force charts of common switches. it would be a huge contribution that we would be eternally grateful for

Okay, I'll see what we can do.  There are a lot of different switches out there, but we can certainly include the usual suspects.

I need force graphs of your switches.

I won't demand you to make graphs of other ppl's switches, but it would be more scientific that way, in case there are any discrpancies between your measuring device and the other guy's.

I do, however, demand force graphs of at least your own switches.  Published by yourself or some random user or whoever.  I can't possibly be expected to buy a stack of keyboards unless I know the force characteristics of the switches involved.

Thank you.

[TotalChaos]

while this is true, we often recommend the rosewill around these parts

Are you saying you have a Rosewill and you still recommend them?  Why?

Is it because you are proficient at soldering so fixing a defective product is easy for you?

My advice is: if a person is going to buy a Rosewill then don't pay over $70.00 for it.  That is what I paid for mine.  Free shipping. No tax.  I did it for Keyboard Science.

because the ODM is costar, the same company that builds filco boards, and generally a pretty reliable manufacturer.

that said, the filco and rosewill designs are not identical, and the subtle differences in build and QC do add up.

The differences between Filco and Rosewill are not subtle.  They are right there staring me in the face and annoying me 24 hours a day.

The Rosewill comes with the stupidest cable ever designed by a keyboard company.  Super specially custom made so that it places 10x the stress on your connector than any other cable.  At this very moment my USB port is supporting the weight of around 14 inches of cable when it should only be supporting the weight of a couple of inches at most.

Keep in mind that the last 6 inches that it is supporting is several inches away horizontally so there could be mechanical advantage effect going on.  Or maybe not.  Who knows.


And now I  shall say something very rude, revolutionary and crazy: I shall hijack this thread with an on-topic statement! 

My Rosewill with Cherry Reds is plenty quiet enough for me.  It is around the same quiet level as my worst rubberdome over membrane keyboard.  I am not saying my Rosewill is some super quiet keyboard.  I am just saying that it doesn't make excessive noise and I don't sit around thinking "OMG, I wish my keyboard was quieter!".

However if someone made a keyboard with a switch that was just as good as a Cherry Red, or better, and it made less noise, then I would certainly buy 1 or more of them and even pay extra for it.

I am all for the advancement of Keyboard Technology.

[TotalChaos]

Alright, so I got my Rosewill RK9000 with cherry MX browns.  ... As for noise though, it's less noisy than the AT101W and the model M.  It is still noisier than my cheap rubber dome at work.  So, the question remains as to whether or not it will pass the decibel test.  I'll bring the board to work on Monday and find out.  If I could learn to type quickly without bottoming out, this keyboard would be very silent, but with the lighter keypresses, I'm not sure that's gonna happen.

Did u succeed in learning to type without crashing?

I am trying to do the same thing.  I have not succeeded yet.  Maybe I am getting better...dunno.

[TotalChaos]

It's like learning to ride a motorcycle.  It's different than a bicycle, but you still remember how to ride the bicycle afterwards.

Does this mean you can switch between Qwerty, Colemak and Dvorak without probems?

[rowdy]

^ Probably not while he is riding his motorbike.

[rknize]

It's like learning to ride a motorcycle.  It's different than a bicycle, but you still remember how to ride the bicycle afterwards.

Does this mean you can switch between Qwerty, Colemak and Dvorak without probems?

Nope, that's not what that means in any way shape or form.