Author Topic: Would You Pay $300 For A Modern Capacitive Buckling Spring Keyboard?  (Read 8792 times)

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Offline Tempest790

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I know there is still a lot of debate over Topre's, Cherry's, Alps, Buckling Spring, etc.  With Topre topping out the cost factor with some keyboards costing nearly $300, it makes me wonder it people would really pay such a premium for the best keyboards.  Obviously, yes.

While Unicomp still makes buckling spring keyboards, its the newer membrane style like the Model M.  If you listen to some Youtube videos, the Model F with the capacitive buckling spring has a much more crisp sound to it.  While I didn't know the difference then, I believe some of the keyboards I used in school years ago had those capacitive style keyboards.  And yes, I remember loving them so much.

Some may say there isn't a market for such a keyboard since the price would be prohibitively high compared to membrane buckling springs.  I definitely like all kinds of switches, and would probably love some Alps and Topre's too if I tried them, but I think my ultimate keyboard would be something like the Model F, but with the new modern layout.  I assume Unicomp still owns the patents to those.  Even if the price would be in the $300 dollar range, I think a there are enough people who would want a keyboard that would be that durable, sounds great (if loud), and would last decades.  I know I wouldn't hesitate to purchase such a board.

Do you think Unicomp could be persuaded to make a typical 104 key (and possibly TKL) versions?  Even if they made a limited test run to see if there's a market for it, I think they would be surprised how many people would jump at the chance.

Offline daerid

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Re: Would You Pay $300 For A Modern Capacitive Buckling Spring Keyboard?
« Reply #1 on: Sat, 16 March 2013, 21:11:28 »
Yes. I know I would. Assuming the chassy was much sturdier.

Offline The_Ed

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Re: Would You Pay $300 For A Modern Capacitive Buckling Spring Keyboard?
« Reply #2 on: Sat, 16 March 2013, 21:16:35 »
A modern 104 layout Model F would be awesome, but I fear corners would be cut (thinner metal plate, cheaper and thinner plastics) and it wouldn't be nearly as good as a real Model F. (I have never actually tried a Model F, but I like my older IBM manufactured M's)

$300 is quite steep though, I could buy 3 or more NIB IBM manufactured M's for that...
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Offline Tarzan

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Re: Would You Pay $300 For A Modern Capacitive Buckling Spring Keyboard?
« Reply #3 on: Sat, 16 March 2013, 21:19:33 »
Yep.  Absolutely.

Offline calavera

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Re: Would You Pay $300 For A Modern Capacitive Buckling Spring Keyboard?
« Reply #4 on: Sat, 16 March 2013, 21:24:16 »
A modern TKL or mini ala korean custom keyboard layouts with thinner bezels...absolutely.

Offline Tempest790

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Re: Would You Pay $300 For A Modern Capacitive Buckling Spring Keyboard?
« Reply #5 on: Sat, 16 March 2013, 21:27:53 »
Do you think maybe we could start some kind of petition?  If we get enough interest, we might be able to get Unicomp to make them.

For example, a quick search on eBay shows some Model F's going for about $175, and the manufacture date is 1985.  That's 28 years old!

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Would You Pay $300 For A Modern Capacitive Buckling Spring Keyboard?
« Reply #6 on: Sat, 16 March 2013, 21:29:15 »
How many of us have $100 keyboard an a +/-$100 keycap set on it? Add an aluminum or plexi case and you easily just broke $300.
KMAC's, Cheats and others hit that with ease, every time a USED one comes up for sale. I think it's safe to say quite a few will spend $300 on a keyboard.

However, it would have to be something special. Just another Chinese plastic fantastic with a few less keys won't cut it at that price.
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Offline dante

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Re: Would You Pay $300 For A Modern Capacitive Buckling Spring Keyboard?
« Reply #7 on: Sat, 16 March 2013, 21:29:22 »
Do you think Unicomp could be persuaded to make a typical 104 key (and possibly TKL) versions?  Even if they made a limited test run to see if there's a market for it, I think they would be surprised how many people would jump at the chance.

I doubt it; Unicomp is only interested in breaking even.

Offline The_Ed

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Re: Would You Pay $300 For A Modern Capacitive Buckling Spring Keyboard?
« Reply #8 on: Sat, 16 March 2013, 21:30:14 »
If a petition was made you'd have to have a "committed at price X" as there might be 2 or 3 times as many people at say $200 than $300.
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Offline Tarzan

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Re: Would You Pay $300 For A Modern Capacitive Buckling Spring Keyboard?
« Reply #9 on: Sat, 16 March 2013, 21:38:14 »
HHKBs are what, $270?  Realforce boards around the same price-point?  And that's not even getting into the custom board market.  I think  $300 is a decent target figure, especially if they make a 122-key version.   ;)

Offline Tempest790

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Re: Would You Pay $300 For A Modern Capacitive Buckling Spring Keyboard?
« Reply #10 on: Sat, 16 March 2013, 21:38:42 »
How many of us have $100 keyboard an a +/-$100 keycap set on it? Add an aluminum or plexi case and you easily just broke $300.
KMAC's, Cheats and others hit that with ease, every time a USED one comes up for sale. I think it's safe to say quite a few will spend $300 on a keyboard.

However, it would have to be something special. Just another Chinese plastic fantastic with a few less keys won't cut it at that price.

I agree, but I believe Unicomp's keyboards are completely made in America (Kentucky actually) anyway.  I wouldn't wanted outsourced obviously, because quality control would probably take a nose dive.

And actually, I don't really know how much such a keyboard would cost to make.  I figure if costs no more than $300 it would definitely generate interest.  Now if it can made and sold for $200-$250 then I'm all for that of course.  I don't even know what engineering steps Unicomp would have to take to design and tool the switches.  I believe that's where most of the cost is going to be anyway.

And yes, I just got some custom keycaps, and am now on my 4th mechanical keyboard, so my investments are already over $500 now.
« Last Edit: Sat, 16 March 2013, 21:40:55 by Tempest790 »

Offline dante

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Re: Would You Pay $300 For A Modern Capacitive Buckling Spring Keyboard?
« Reply #11 on: Sat, 16 March 2013, 21:41:30 »
How many of us have $100 keyboard an a +/-$100 keycap set on it? Add an aluminum or plexi case and you easily just broke $300.
KMAC's, Cheats and others hit that with ease, every time a USED one comes up for sale. I think it's safe to say quite a few will spend $300 on a keyboard.

However, it would have to be something special. Just another Chinese plastic fantastic with a few less keys won't cut it at that price.

I agree, but I believe Unicomp's keyboards are completely made in America (Kentucky actually) anyway.  I wouldn't wanted outsourced obviously, because quality control would probably take a nose dive.

And actually, I don't really know how much such a keyboard would cost to make.  I figure if costs no more than $300 it would definitely generate interest.  Now if it can made and sold for $200-$250 then I'm all for that of course.  I don't even know what engineering steps Unicomp would have to take to design and tool the switches.  I believe that's where most of the cost is going to be anyway.

I think you are living on fantasy island.  Unicomp has spent over 6 months just trying to create keycap sets and won't even chop off their keyboard to make a tenkeyless - no way they will budge on this.

Your best bet would be to create a retrofit kit for existing Model M keyboards.

Offline daerid

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Re: Would You Pay $300 For A Modern Capacitive Buckling Spring Keyboard?
« Reply #12 on: Sat, 16 March 2013, 21:41:48 »
A buckling spring board made up to modern day manufacturing standards would be something special, especially if the switch was capacitive.

Offline Strelok

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Re: Would You Pay $300 For A Modern Capacitive Buckling Spring Keyboard?
« Reply #13 on: Sat, 16 March 2013, 21:54:35 »
Depends on form factor and visual customization for me personally.

I am not really a switch nazi, but I really love 60% boards and the GH60 has a decent chance of being my end all be all honestly.

Offline jwaz

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Re: Would You Pay $300 For A Modern Capacitive Buckling Spring Keyboard?
« Reply #14 on: Sat, 16 March 2013, 22:17:40 »
If the community could some how design such a thing I would love to pay $300 for one.

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Would You Pay $300 For A Modern Capacitive Buckling Spring Keyboard?
« Reply #15 on: Sat, 16 March 2013, 22:22:58 »
I agree, but I believe Unicomp's keyboards are completely made in America (Kentucky actually) anyway.  I wouldn't wanted outsourced obviously, because quality control would probably take a nose dive.

The Chinese are perfectly capable of making things every bit as good as us, sometimes better. It's a matter of specifying EXACTLY what you want, and how you want it done. If you aren't careful, some manufacturers will skimp on anything then can. If you can avoid the pitfalls though, you can get an amazing product for extremely cheap.
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Offline The_Beast

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Re: Would You Pay $300 For A Modern Capacitive Buckling Spring Keyboard?
« Reply #16 on: Sat, 16 March 2013, 22:28:07 »
I agree, but I believe Unicomp's keyboards are completely made in America (Kentucky actually) anyway.  I wouldn't wanted outsourced obviously, because quality control would probably take a nose dive.

The Chinese are perfectly capable of making things every bit as good as us, sometimes better. It's a matter of specifying EXACTLY what you want, and how you want it done. If you aren't careful, some manufacturers will skimp on anything then can. If you can avoid the pitfalls though, you can get an amazing product for extremely cheap.

Good luck finding that!
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Offline bazemk1979

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Re: Would You Pay $300 For A Modern Capacitive Buckling Spring Keyboard?
« Reply #17 on: Sat, 16 March 2013, 22:52:07 »
I agree, but I believe Unicomp's keyboards are completely made in America (Kentucky actually) anyway.  I wouldn't wanted outsourced obviously, because quality control would probably take a nose dive.

The Chinese are perfectly capable of making things every bit as good as us, sometimes better. It's a matter of specifying EXACTLY what you want, and how you want it done. If you aren't careful, some manufacturers will skimp on anything then can. If you can avoid the pitfalls though, you can get an amazing product for extremely cheap.

Good luck finding that!
your wrong my friend, I work in construction and I can tell you that a lot of heavy duty industrial tools are made in China, this is the case even for lots of reputable companies such as Bosch,Makita,Milwaukee etc etc etc.

But guess what, there is quality control going on same as the tools were manufactured from the country of origin or country where the tool was designed. I'm sure there is a little bit higher pay for this type of production, but not much higher than the usual cheap labor.


You pay lil more + you got your people controlling the quality = good profit + good quality.
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Offline joules

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Re: Would You Pay $300 For A Modern Capacitive Buckling Spring Keyboard?
« Reply #18 on: Sun, 17 March 2013, 06:40:50 »
Yes I would pay $300.00. But I wouldn't buy it if it at all if it had a windows logo for the meta/super key...unless it was really awesome. ;D

However, I don't like the unicomp logo, its @#% and they really need to show some enthusiasm about their products.

I'm starting to really think about keyboards more than I ever had and I've just realized, I never use the R_ALT or R_CTRL.
The ESC is too far away so I might assign it to one of them.
The CAPS_LOCK is never used (and is now a CONTROL key - thanks GH'ers for the idea.).
I also never use keys F6-F12 (unless with a mod like alt), some are now assigned as media keys.
The numpad I do use (accounting), but that could be a separate unit.

So if a company could re-release The IBM Model M15 with a smarter layout that would be cool. :)

I used a Cherry Blue (now sold) for a week and wasn't impressed at all. And I gave it a serious run.

Back on a Model M. 

"They"* say once you use a buckling spring keys everything else feels inferior. I guess "they"*
are right.


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Offline ksm123

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Re: Would You Pay $300 For A Modern Capacitive Buckling Spring Keyboard?
« Reply #19 on: Sun, 17 March 2013, 08:10:27 »
$300 for vanilla 101 keys keyboard? No way.

For modern ergonomic layout? Yes I would.

I wonder if someone could reinvent buckling spring, to give us the same feel without associated noise. My co-workers objected to MX Blue noise, I wonder how would they react to classical BS keyboard.

Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Would You Pay $300 For A Modern Capacitive Buckling Spring Keyboard?
« Reply #20 on: Sun, 17 March 2013, 09:50:32 »
In 1985 dollars, the Model M was a (high-profit) $250 cost-cutter to replace the (low-profit) $350 Model F, back when a keyboard was an expensive peripheral that you purchased with your computer.

Personally, I would want the modern Model F to be a full-sized, straight-ANSI configured without deviation from the "standard" layout.

That is why I went to the trouble to buy an F-122 and re-jigger the keys to get as close to ANSI as possible.

There would be a market of equal size, if not larger, for an SSK-style model, but once you get away from that, everybody would want his own "ergo" layout.

It would be a huge plus if barrels and springs could be moved, as is possible with the old ones.

Is $300 in today's dollars a reasonable price for a good-quality Chinese product? Absolutely. They could do it for $200.
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Offline nullstring

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Re: Would You Pay $300 For A Modern Capacitive Buckling Spring Keyboard?
« Reply #21 on: Sun, 17 March 2013, 10:22:23 »
Model M's really cost $250 stand alone at one point in time? Any documentation to this effect?

Offline AKIMbO

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Re: Would You Pay $300 For A Modern Capacitive Buckling Spring Keyboard?
« Reply #22 on: Sun, 17 March 2013, 10:50:57 »
A normal ANSI capacitive bs keyboard is my wet dream.  Yes...I would gladly smack down $300 for one. 
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Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Would You Pay $300 For A Modern Capacitive Buckling Spring Keyboard?
« Reply #23 on: Sun, 17 March 2013, 11:08:48 »
Model M's really cost $250 stand alone at one point in time? Any documentation to this effect?

It may have been more.

I bet rootwyrm knows.
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Offline Edjewh

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Re: Would You Pay $300 For A Modern Capacitive Buckling Spring Keyboard?
« Reply #24 on: Sun, 17 March 2013, 11:24:05 »
not me, I am having issues spending 100 on a keyboard

Offline Parak

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Re: Would You Pay $300 For A Modern Capacitive Buckling Spring Keyboard?
« Reply #25 on: Sun, 17 March 2013, 16:54:51 »
The patent expired a while back, but I highly doubt that Unicomp has the needed tooling to make the Model F bits as they were retired before the Model Ms were migrated to Lexmark, and then eventually to Unicomp.

So for more than a few-off, most of the components would need to be remade - barrels, capacitive flippies, springs, controller. At least the keycaps (although worse than the older ones) are still made.

Offline joules

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Re: Would You Pay $300 For A Modern Capacitive Buckling Spring Keyboard?
« Reply #26 on: Sun, 17 March 2013, 18:08:09 »
$300 for vanilla 101 keys keyboard? No way.

For modern ergonomic layout? Yes I would.

I wonder if someone could reinvent buckling spring, to give us the same feel without associated noise. My co-workers objected to MX Blue noise, I wonder how would they react to classical BS keyboard.
I found the Cherry MX Blues noisier.

I don't have co-workers.

Offline joules

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Re: Would You Pay $300 For A Modern Capacitive Buckling Spring Keyboard?
« Reply #27 on: Sun, 17 March 2013, 18:25:48 »
The patent expired a while back, but I highly doubt that Unicomp has the needed tooling to make the Model F bits as they were retired before the Model Ms were migrated to Lexmark, and then eventually to Unicomp.

So for more than a few-off, most of the components would need to be remade - barrels, capacitive flippies, springs, controller. At least the keycaps (although worse than the older ones) are still made.
There seems to be alot of excuses around unicomp, sorry, I'm not trolling, but it seems that any one of us fans of the model m's and bs keys could
offer them a few ideas on a NEW product. People are willing to throw down ~$300 for a HHKB, so I'm sure if they paid attention to that they would come
up with something - and they don't have to be built in China.

Chinas factories are nothing special, theres no *magic* going on there, you know.

Offline The_Beast

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Re: Would You Pay $300 For A Modern Capacitive Buckling Spring Keyboard?
« Reply #28 on: Sun, 17 March 2013, 18:28:44 »
I'd love an SSK in capacitive BS, $300 might be a bit much. However considering that most regular keyboards easily add up to that with mods/custom caps, it really isn't that much in the overall picture
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Offline h2gofast

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Re: Would You Pay $300 For A Modern Capacitive Buckling Spring Keyboard?
« Reply #29 on: Sun, 17 March 2013, 20:12:27 »
Do you think maybe we could start some kind of petition?  If we get enough interest, we might be able to get Unicomp to make them.

For example, a quick search on eBay shows some Model F's going for about $175, and the manufacture date is 1985.  That's 28 years old!

Uh, yeah, just because someone's asking that much doesn't mean they're getting that price. 

Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Would You Pay $300 For A Modern Capacitive Buckling Spring Keyboard?
« Reply #30 on: Sun, 17 March 2013, 20:24:33 »
Model F ATs regularly sell in the $150-200 range, twice what it was a year or 2 ago.

XTs, which were practically given away until Soarer's converter came along, are probably worth at least $30-50 now.

F-122s are so rare that prices are all over the board. You might get lucky and stumble on one for under $50, but now that people understand how great they are, I would not be at all surprised if prices stayed well above $100, if not a lot more.
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Offline BlindRAGE606

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Re: Would You Pay $300 For A Modern Capacitive Buckling Spring Keyboard?
« Reply #31 on: Sun, 17 March 2013, 23:34:17 »
I'd pay $300+ for a modern twist of a buckling spring variant.


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Offline rootwyrm

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Re: Would You Pay $300 For A Modern Capacitive Buckling Spring Keyboard?
« Reply #32 on: Mon, 18 March 2013, 04:20:54 »
Model M's really cost $250 stand alone at one point in time? Any documentation to this effect?

It may have been more.

I bet rootwyrm knows.

Actually, I don't think the M itself was $250 at any point. Not the PC version. RS/6000 and AS/400 I seem to recall being over that $250 number for obvious reasons. (Though it's hard to break those out because they were paired with a terminal, a la 7316-TF3 where they list just the keyboard at $150.) The early Netfinity stuff (386-486 era) rolled the M into the $4.6-6.4K list. On the other hand, $250 isn't outside the realm of possibility as new order vs spares vs options. But as I said elsewhere, there's usually 3+ different prices.

Another point of reference that should make you giggle, is this old IBM pricing contract. Yes, they charge $490 list for the ANPOS keyboards without the stripe reader (those are an additional $125. Each.)

Also, to elaborate on what all's required for capacitive buckling spring to come back? A lot. It's not just a matter of putting buckling springs over a PCB or such. You would quite literally have to reinvent the vast majority of the controller, because the components that make it capacitive are long out of production. So you're going to have to start from scratch essentially - see also Topre's custom silicon - on the controller. Plus you can't just make the exact same PCB, since having to go Pb-free and such. About all you get to reuse is the chassis and buckling springs. The rest would require all new design.
« Last Edit: Mon, 18 March 2013, 04:33:05 by rootwyrm »
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Offline iri

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Re: Would You Pay $300 For A Modern Capacitive Buckling Spring Keyboard?
« Reply #33 on: Mon, 18 March 2013, 04:40:25 »
I agree, but I believe Unicomp's keyboards are completely made in America (Kentucky actually) anyway.  I wouldn't wanted outsourced obviously, because quality control would probably take a nose dive.

The Chinese are perfectly capable of making things every bit as good as us, sometimes better.
if you are talking about unicomp quality -- yes, the chinese are perfectly capable of making better keyboards.
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Offline Tempest790

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Re: Would You Pay $300 For A Modern Capacitive Buckling Spring Keyboard?
« Reply #34 on: Mon, 18 March 2013, 10:02:35 »
There are several online petition sites, and most of them seem free.  Does anyone have any experience or recommendations for one?  I figure we can start a signature campaign and spread the word.  If we can show enough interest, maybe they can be persuaded to make the keyboard.

How many signatures do you think we need?  I figure it would probably be at least 1000 keyboards to make it worthwhile for them to build and sell them, but I know that would depend greatly on price.

If Unicomp can't be persuaded and there is no patent restrictions, perhaps we can look elsewhere?  There are keyboard enthusiasts all over the world, so I'm sure we can find a company that might back such a project.

Also, today you have sites like Kickstarter.com where you can attempt to raise the capital to start a project.
« Last Edit: Mon, 18 March 2013, 10:04:54 by Tempest790 »

Offline Parak

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Re: Would You Pay $300 For A Modern Capacitive Buckling Spring Keyboard?
« Reply #35 on: Mon, 18 March 2013, 11:47:11 »
It's a massive risk for any company to develop an entirely new product like this, as it'd run up a small fortune in R&D costs. This is not something that a company can just go to an OEM in china and say "give me a few thousand of these". Schematics and PCBs need to be conceptualized, code has to be developed, parts have to be prototyped, molds have to be made, tooling and automation have to be in place, etc etc. So asking some company to start making Fs is quite unrealistic, I'm afraid.

As I mentioned, this will have to be a DIY approach, and maybe some people at some advanced future point may start raising money for getting new molds made for the various subcomponents. This can only happen after the basic design is proven via the older parts. Right now the main bottleneck is a controller replacement for the F pcbs, which will also be the controller for any new PCBs. There is a proof of concept code out there for this that will hopefully be fully open sourced into a more generic controller project soon. It will still need a lot of work from people familiar with embedded code and how a capacitive matrix works to make it stable and functional on a custom PCB. Needless to say, this is quite different from any Cherry PCB/controller project, and quite a bit more difficult and complicated. Once the controller is stable and works on custom PCBs, we can essentially make custom Fs by re-purposing barrels/springs/flippies/etc from some older boards

Aside from that, a project such as this would also benefit from the input of a materials engineer who can analyze the current hardware components and offer input on replicating them. Again, this would be a far off eventual secondary goal after a controller + custom PCB is verified to work.

Offline dante

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Re: Would You Pay $300 For A Modern Capacitive Buckling Spring Keyboard?
« Reply #36 on: Mon, 18 March 2013, 12:41:21 »
Skip Unicomp and talk to Matias or WASD.  It is an entirely different beast for him but if you can get him to commit to X number of dollars on Kickstarter that might be a better way to go.

Offline Krogenar

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Re: Would You Pay $300 For A Modern Capacitive Buckling Spring Keyboard?
« Reply #37 on: Mon, 18 March 2013, 13:38:45 »
Model M's really cost $250 stand alone at one point in time? Any documentation to this effect?

I think fohat meant in inflated-adjusted prices, possibly.
Not sure if there's a market for a remanufactured Model F-style keyboard. I mean, why do it when there are still enough of them floating around?
« Last Edit: Mon, 18 March 2013, 13:40:19 by Krogenar »
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Offline mashby

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Re: Would You Pay $300 For A Modern Capacitive Buckling Spring Keyboard?
« Reply #38 on: Mon, 18 March 2013, 13:56:39 »
I would definitely pay $300 for a 60% buckling spring keyboard as long as it had a programmable fn layer. That is my dream board.

Offline Parak

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Re: Would You Pay $300 For A Modern Capacitive Buckling Spring Keyboard?
« Reply #39 on: Mon, 18 March 2013, 13:57:51 »
Not sure if there's a market for a remanufactured Model F-style keyboard. I mean, why do it when there are still enough of them floating around?

1. There's definitely /not/ enough of them floating around anymore with the rising demand, and prices are getting to be ludicrous.
2. Most of the readily available Fs (the XTs) don't have a very good layout.
3. Controller replacements have to happen for some F boards that don't work with an adapter like Soarer's. Having them work with custom PCBs would be a very nice side benefit.
4. Why do we have custom cherry boards with custom controllers to boot when not only were there enough cherry boards floating around, but we even have a ton of new ones of all kinds being made by multitudes of OEMs?

Offline Tempest790

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Re: Would You Pay $300 For A Modern Capacitive Buckling Spring Keyboard?
« Reply #40 on: Mon, 18 March 2013, 15:05:14 »
Not sure if there's a market for a remanufactured Model F-style keyboard. I mean, why do it when there are still enough of them floating around?

1. There's definitely /not/ enough of them floating around anymore with the rising demand, and prices are getting to be ludicrous.
2. Most of the readily available Fs (the XTs) don't have a very good layout.
3. Controller replacements have to happen for some F boards that don't work with an adapter like Soarer's. Having them work with custom PCBs would be a very nice side benefit.
4. Why do we have custom cherry boards with custom controllers to boot when not only were there enough cherry boards floating around, but we even have a ton of new ones of all kinds being made by multitudes of OEMs?

I think that kind of makes the point I'm thinking.  Mechanical keyboards are going through renaissance right now with all kinds of new OEM's jumping in.  A couple of years ago, only a couple of backlit mechanical keyboards were really available for example like iOne.  Now, there are at least a half dozen if not more offering backlit mechanical keyboards.  Granted, they are just using Cherry MX switches, but consumer demand is what it's all about.  Cherry MX Red is another example.  Only recently could you get a keyboard with this switch since it was almost extinct.  Now Cherry must be pumping them out, because just about everybody selling a Cherry variant has Red's on the option list.  Even PC Magazine and PCWorld have done articles about mechanical keyboards in the past year which really helps get the word out there.

From what I'm reading, it looks like the controller board would be the biggest hurdle for the keyboard, but I'm sure it's doable with the right planning.  It's just my opinion, but I think the timing is right to make such a project move forward.  Obviously, it will take right people, planning, and some vision, but I don't see why it can't be done.  Heck, companies have even launched retro Atari 2600 joysticks that had custom, expandable controller boards on them.

Offline Krogenar

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Re: Would You Pay $300 For A Modern Capacitive Buckling Spring Keyboard?
« Reply #41 on: Mon, 18 March 2013, 17:46:10 »
As I understand it, IBM started with Model F's and M's and then slowly cut back on the designs to make them more affordable. I don't know if that process can be reversed. I could be wrong -- I just don't know if manufacturers are even set up to make those kinds of mechanisms anymore. The norm has been to cut back on costs, and obsolescence is just the way of things now. Hopefully I'm wrong, and we'll see a manufacturer make a keyboard that's every bit as good as a vintage Model F, but using modern manufacturing techniques.

Quote
1. There's definitely /not/ enough of them floating around anymore with the rising demand, and prices are getting to be ludicrous.

I don't see a huge, rising demand. I could be wrong, though. Seems like Buckling Springs have their fans, but most of the love is for Cherry and Topre boards. I hope you're right about the rising demand, but I don't see it.

Quote
2. Most of the readily available Fs (the XTs) don't have a very good layout.

That's true -- I think you're referring to the one with the vertical Enter key? Meh, you get used to it, or you get bold and you mod it to a more ANSI layout.

Quote
3. Controller replacements have to happen for some F boards that don't work with an adapter like Soarer's. Having them work with custom PCBs would be a very nice side benefit.

I wasn't aware of any F board that couldn't accept a Soarer converter. Is that true? In any case, yes, a custom PCB option would be nice.

Quote
4. Why do we have custom cherry boards with custom controllers to boot when not only were there enough cherry boards floating around, but we even have a ton of new ones of all kinds being made by multitudes of OEMs?

I think you answered your own question. There are more options for Cherry-based boards because... there are more of them out there, and I would assume it's a lot easier to modify a modern board than research a vintage keyboard's workings. Right? Also, my assumption is that people who like vintage boards are more likely to want to keep them vintage, to some degree. No one really mods a Model T with Formula 1 racing stripes. (At least I hope not.)

Anyway, good points all around.
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Offline sleepy916

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Re: Would You Pay $300 For A Modern Capacitive Buckling Spring Keyboard?
« Reply #42 on: Mon, 18 March 2013, 18:12:18 »

Quote
2. Most of the readily available Fs (the XTs) don't have a very good layout.

That's true -- I think you're referring to the one with the vertical Enter key? Meh, you get used to it, or you get bold and you mod it to a more ANSI layout.


The XT looks like this.


The AT:


The 122 Key:


The XT's layout is the one you can't turn to ANSI, or at least I haven't seen it.

Offline wcass

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Re: Would You Pay $300 For A Modern Capacitive Buckling Spring Keyboard?
« Reply #43 on: Mon, 18 March 2013, 23:06:46 »
i have been typing on ibm keyboards since 82 and hacking them for a couple of years now and i know the M and F pretty well. what you are discussing here is what i set out to do here:
http://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/bringing-the-ibm-pc-xt-into-the-21st-century-t3047.html

it is a long thread so i will sum it up like this: i was successful at rearranging the keys to my liking - similar to a TKL - but it fit back in the case of an XT. i even DIY etched a capacitive matrix and could measure capacitive changes with the XT hammers down and up. but i could not recreate a capacitive controller. heck i could not even remove and re-attach a working controller. capacitive sensing is a finicky thing.

but i did notice that a model F with model M hammers feels like a model F; and a model M with model F hammers feels like an M. this was a big surprise to me - i always thought that the feel was from the hammers or from the PCB/membrane. now i think feel comes more from the barrel frame than anything else; the F feels the way it does because loose barrels are sandwiched between two sheets of metal. anyway, that led me to wanting to make custom membranes - which is my project now.

what i am suggesting is that it might be possible to get the feel of the F without going capacitive.
« Last Edit: Mon, 18 March 2013, 23:13:13 by wcass »

Offline rootwyrm

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Re: Would You Pay $300 For A Modern Capacitive Buckling Spring Keyboard?
« Reply #44 on: Mon, 18 March 2013, 23:47:16 »
i have been typing on ibm keyboards since 82 and hacking them for a couple of years now and i know the M and F pretty well. what you are discussing here is what i set out to do here:
http://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/bringing-the-ibm-pc-xt-into-the-21st-century-t3047.html

it is a long thread so i will sum it up like this: i was successful at rearranging the keys to my liking - similar to a TKL - but it fit back in the case of an XT. i even DIY etched a capacitive matrix and could measure capacitive changes with the XT hammers down and up. but i could not recreate a capacitive controller. heck i could not even remove and re-attach a working controller. capacitive sensing is a finicky thing.

Which is exactly what I said a couple posts back, I do believe.

And as you know and can attest to, it's not a matter of just reproducing what was there. Parts are unavailable with no cross-reference, there's proprietary elements involved, and so on. Capacitive sensing is also extremely sensitive to things like EMI/RFI, inductance and resistance. You need world class electrical engineers to put together a reliable design that's suitable for mass production. And a lot of testing.

but i did notice that a model F with model M hammers feels like a model F; and a model M with model F hammers feels like an M. this was a big surprise to me - i always thought that the feel was from the hammers or from the PCB/membrane. now i think feel comes more from the barrel frame than anything else; the F feels the way it does because loose barrels are sandwiched between two sheets of metal. anyway, that led me to wanting to make custom membranes - which is my project now.

what i am suggesting is that it might be possible to get the feel of the F without going capacitive.

Ayup, the feel is largely from two elements - the springs and the frame. Why is this? Because these are the only two elements you're actually interacting with. The barrel frame is what defines the keycap motion, spring angle and such. The spring is well, the spring. But once the spring "buckles"? That's it. You're still only feeling the spring. It sits between you and the hammer, not to mention the membrane/PCB and frame.

But it's not all tea and roses here either. To my knowledge, all of the F tooling is long, long gone. Yes, you can get the springs and hammers. But you can't get the upper moldings - by far the most complicated element from a tooling standpoint. (The chassis uppers themselves aren't easy, but pale in comparison to the complexity of barrels and integrated hinge mounts for hammers. So many fiddly bits!) So you'd pretty much be starting from scratch, unless you could find an absolutely pristine new in box F that had been kept in a perfect environment its whole life.
So yeah, we can rule that out. Which means it comes down to the same issue as reinventing capacitive - the need for a lot of from-scratch engineering, prototyping and testing. 3D printers or not, that's still a lot of money you have to invest.

And like I say a lot, it comes down to the economies of scale. We're what, maybe a hundred to two hundred units sold? Call it 500 units throwing in with the rest of the world, maybe 750. And these are one-time sales, since if they're true to the F, they'll last 30 years. And no, you can't use a desktop 3D printer - the dimensions alone mean you're looking at a Stratasys Objet 500V (19.1" longest dimension vs. 14" for the 360V) - so you're already WELL over $50K in the hole. Seriously, that thing's so expensive it's pricing-by-quote-only. Dimension 1200es pricing for comparison - SST at $35K and it can't handle the required dimensions.

So I have little hope we'll see it any time soon, unfortunately. It's just too damn expensive a proposition for pretty much anyone to undertake.
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Offline hashbaz

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Re: Would You Pay $300 For A Modern Capacitive Buckling Spring Keyboard?
« Reply #45 on: Tue, 19 March 2013, 00:11:04 »
I would drop $300 on a modern F for sure.  We've tried petitioning Unicomp in the past though...

Offline sth

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Re: Would You Pay $300 For A Modern Capacitive Buckling Spring Keyboard?
« Reply #46 on: Tue, 19 March 2013, 00:13:51 »
I would absolutely buy a small capacitive buckling spring board, but it would be really nice if there was a choice of weights for my dainty fingers.
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Offline jwaz

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Re: Would You Pay $300 For A Modern Capacitive Buckling Spring Keyboard?
« Reply #47 on: Tue, 19 March 2013, 01:24:51 »
I would absolutely buy a small capacitive buckling spring board, but it would be really nice if there was a choice of weights for my dainty fingers.

Maybe it's just my imagination but I thought my F felt like it actuated easier than my M. (goes to check)

Offline sleepy916

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Re: Would You Pay $300 For A Modern Capacitive Buckling Spring Keyboard?
« Reply #48 on: Tue, 19 March 2013, 01:45:25 »
Yeah, my F was easier than my M to actuate, except for the space bar.

Offline omgFiRE

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Re: Would You Pay $300 For A Modern Capacitive Buckling Spring Keyboard?
« Reply #49 on: Tue, 19 March 2013, 07:09:35 »
A Modern Capacitive Buckling Spring sounds interesting, but unrealistic.
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