Help a n00b choose a new keyboard

[ch_123]

What's the difference between the force and the force graph of the switch? Aren't they the same thing?

Well, "force" doesn't really mean anything in this context, as the force required to depress the key varies throughout the travel of the key (and that holds true for any keyboard). Perhaps you mean "peak force" or the like, which (as far as I can tell) refers to the minimum amount of force that has to be applied to the switch to activate it.

A force graph plots the amount of force required to depress the key over the duration of the key's travel, if that makes sense. I'd recommend looking at a force graph for a switch that you use, and see if you can see how it relates to what you feel when you press the key.

I think the point that IBI was getting at is that it's not as much the peak force that matters, but moreso things like where it peaks during the travel, how suddenly it comes on etc.

Also how do the acoustics of the keyboard affect ones typing speed and accuracy?

On "clicky" switches (as opposed to switches where the click is not part of the action, but just the noise of bottoming out, eg. Black Alps), the sound generally co-incides with the activation of the switch, so one you hear it you know that you can release it and move on to the next one (obviously the tactility is going to do the same thing, but having both can be helpful)

[Special K]

Well, "force" doesn't really mean anything in this context, as the force required to depress the key varies throughout the travel of the key (and that holds true for any keyboard). Perhaps you mean "peak force" or the like, which (as far as I can tell) refers to the minimum amount of force that has to be applied to the switch to activate it.

A force graph plots the amount of force required to depress the key over the duration of the key's travel, if that makes sense. I'd recommend looking at a force graph for a switch that you use, and see if you can see how it relates to what you feel when you press the key.

I think the point that IBI was getting at is that it's not as much the peak force that matters, but moreso things like where it peaks during the travel, how suddenly it comes on etc.

If I apply a force to the key, doesn't that imply that the key is accelerating downward?  What if I'm moving the key down with a constant velocity?  Does that mean F = 0?  Would it make more sense to talk about the work done to move the switch?

[ch_123]

My mechanical physics is a bit rusty I'm afraid... Any force graph for a keyboard I have seen plots Force in cN against distance in mm. Work as far as I remember was force x distance, not one over the other?

[Special K]

My mechanical physics is a bit rusty I'm afraid... Any force graph for a keyboard I have seen plots Force in cN against distance in mm. Work as far as I remember was force x distance, not one over the other?

Yeah you're right, work may not be the best term because it implies a force, which in turn implies an acceleration.  I'm just wondering how the force graph figures in if I move the key down with a constant velocity, i.e. not an acceleration.

[Manyak]

If I apply a force to the key, doesn't that imply that the key is accelerating downward?  What if I'm moving the key down with a constant velocity?  Does that mean F = 0?  Would it make more sense to talk about the work done to move the switch?

No it doesn't mean that F=0, because there is an upwards force exerted by the spring (or whatever mechanism) that increases as the key moves downwards.

So to move the key down with a constant velocity you have to use a force that is always equal to the increasing upwards force exerted by the spring PLUS enough force to overcome friction, and decrease the force you use right after the tactile bump.

[Special K]

No it doesn't mean that F=0, because there is an upwards force exerted by the spring (or whatever mechanism) that increases as the key moves downwards.

So to move the key down with a constant velocity you have to use a force that is always equal to the increasing upwards force exerted by the spring PLUS enough force to overcome friction, and decrease the force you use right after the tactile bump.

Yeah you're right.  It's the net force that causes the acceleration, but a force must be applied to overcome the spring, friction, etc.  and the amount of force needed to do this varies with the key's position according to the force graph.

[Special K]

I've had a chance to type on my Model M 1391401 for several days now and here are my thoughts:

- very good tactility
- the keys are a lot heavier than the cherry browns (but I already knew that); this isn't necessarily a negative point, although I think I might prefer a lighter switch
- the noise the springs make when the keys are released starts to get on my nerves after awhile
- easy to clean; keys can be removed by hand
- plastic rivets are extremely fragile; I had 2 of them fall out on me already and I was very careful in handling the board when cleaning it
- the springs and swich mechanisms seem to be very particular about how the keys are inserted; after cleaning and replacing the keys, I had mounted the spacebar and CTRL keys in such a way that the keyboard thought they were permanently pressed down, even though I wasn't actually touching the keys

[itlnstln]

I have notice the springy sound in my Ms, but it doesn't bother me near as much as the click in Cherry blues.

[Special K]

I have notice the springy sound in my Ms, but it doesn't bother me near as much as the click in Cherry blues.

I haven't tried cherry blues yet (should get a chance soon), but I'll report back once I do.

[nerp]

Ahh, the springy. My M springs like a monster, but it has tempered out a bit with regular use. My Unicomps, on the other hand, don't spring at all, really. They sounds awesome. Just clicky, and that's about it. I also prefer the keyfeel on my Unicomps. And I like the spacesaver just a littttle more than my customizer 104. I think the smaller shell of the spacesaver helps to keep the sound crisper.

[Rajagra]

Here's the recording of a Unicomp Spacesaver versus a NIB IBM 1391401

The IBM, the ringing after effect, it sounds like ... yes, yes, it's COWBELL!

[Special K]

Here's the recording of a Unicomp Spacesaver versus a NIB IBM 1391401 - if you can't hear a difference you've been listening to too much Heavy Metal.

They sound basically the same, but the IBM Model M springs have a noticeably longer "ringing" sound to them when the keys are released, which is exactly what I complained about in my earlier post.  There is a similar noise with the Unicomp, but it dies out much quicker.  In many of the recorded keypresses, you can't even hear a ringing when the Unicomp's keys are released.

[Special K]

On another note, I just picked up my first blue cherry board today, the Ione Scorpius M10.  I think I can definitively say that I prefer lighter switches to heavier ones, and that my favorite is either the cherry brown or the cherry blue.  Choosing between those two would be more difficult, however.

I will say that the M10 doesn't feel as cheap as I expected.  The keyboard itself has some heft to it; I wouldn't be surprised to find a metal plate inside.  The keys themselves feel like they are made of very light plastic, however.  From what I have read, the potentital issue with this board is the soldering.  I mainly got this board as a cheap way to try out the cherry blue switches.

[ch_123]

On another note, I just picked up my first blue cherry board today, the Ione Scorpius M10.  I think I can definitively say that I prefer lighter switches to heavier ones, and that my favorite is either the cherry brown or the cherry blue.  Choosing between those two would be more difficult, however.

I will say that the M10 doesn't feel as cheap as I expected.  The keyboard itself has some heft to it; I wouldn't be surprised to find a metal plate inside.  The keys themselves feel like they are made of very light plastic, however.  From what I have read, the potentital issue with this board is the soldering.  I mainly got this board as a cheap way to try out the cherry blue switches.

Yeah, Im pretty sure the M10 has a backplate in it alright. And I agree, even though the buckling springs feel and sound nicer, I prefer the Cherry Blues due to how light they are.

[timw4mail]

I still don't like the Cherry switches as much as my Model F...I even have three sample switches, White, Black, and Blue. Out of the three I'll take blue, then white, but overall, I still really like buckling springs, maybe it's just the bounce-back?

[Special K]

I was searching youtube and came across this video review/advertisement for the Scorpius M10:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXnGH6IMOfI

In the video review, the reviewer claims the M10 allows for 6 simultaneous keypresses.  Yeah right.  This thing isn't any better than most keyboards out there in that regard.  It can't handle more than two of QWAS, for example.

I already sent an email to the video's author about it.  Maybe I can get their ad pulled just like I did for the M1. :wink:

[timw4mail]

I was searching youtube and came across this video review/advertisement for the Scorpius M10:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXnGH6IMOfI

In the video review, the reviewer claims the M10 allows for 6 simultaneous keypresses.  Yeah right.  This thing isn't any better than most keyboards out there in that regard.  It can't handle more than two of QWAS, for example.

I already sent an email to the video's author about it.  Maybe I can get their ad pulled just like I did for the M1. :wink:

That's true, the M10 has some of the worst rollover I've ever seen. At the same time, though, I've never had a problem typing or programming with it, so maybe it isn't really that important.

[Special K]

Here's something else weird about the M10 I didn't notice at first - different keys are different heights, but there doesn't seem to be much rhyme or reason to it.

For example, the row of keys with ZXCV is raised up higher than the row of keys with the spacebar, but the left shift key is raised up higher than any other key in its row.  The right shift key isn't raised up any higher than any other key in its row.  The delete, end, and page down keys are set so low that the tops of the keys are almost flush with the case of the keyboard.  The F1 key is set slightly higher than F2, F3, and F4.

Are these height differences deliberate or a result of very poor QC?  Either way, I don't like them.  I don't mind if each row is a little bit higher than the previous one (i.e. the AT101W or Model M) but making individual keys in a row higher than others is messed up.

[huha]

Can anyone open up an M10 and make pics of the keyboard matrix?

-huha

[timw4mail]

Can anyone open up an M10 and make pics of the keyboard matrix?

-huha

Do you need the front and the back, or just the back?

[huha]

Depends on what's going on there, but usually, the back will suffice. Should be as high-res as possible and individual traces should be clearly separated.
A reference picture of the layout will help a lot, but this doesn't need to be high-res at all.

-huha

[timw4mail]

Depends on what's going on there, but usually, the back will suffice. Should be as high-res as possible and individual traces should be clearly separated.
A reference picture of the layout will help a lot, but this doesn't need to be high-res at all.

-huha

Then I'm not the one to take the pictures...having a fixed-lens camera sucks.

[Special K]

Here's my preferences of switches so far:

1. cherry blue
2. cherry brown
3. Black alps
4. buckling spring

It's very close between choices 1 and 2.  Honestly I'd probably be satisfied with a Filco board using either type of switch.  The black alps is a distant 3rd, and the buckling spring is a very distant 4th.

All are far better than the cheap dell rubber dome board I was using when I first found geekhack

The only two switches I can think of that I haven't yet tried are black cherries and white alps.  However, given that buckling spring is my least favorite switch, is it even worth trying the black cherries?

Also, what about white alps?  I don't see much mention of them on here.

Are there any other switch types I'm not thinking of that are worth trying?

[keyb_gr]

The only two switches I can think of that I haven't yet tried are black cherries and white alps.  However, given that buckling spring is my least favorite switch, is it even worth trying the black cherries?

Depends. They're good for key mashing (games) and very tough (not as easily upset by debris as their tactile cousins and very long-lived). For typing they're quite OK but hardly very exciting.

Also, what about white alps?  I don't see much mention of them on here.

Those who do have complex white Alps usually like them.

Are there any other switch types I'm not thinking of that are worth trying?

There are some SMK switches in vintage boards that people like. If you're after a particular type, they're about as easy to got hold of as your average phantom though.

[itlnstln]

Mitsumi switiches in some revisions of the AEKII were fairly nice, too.  Those switches had the general feel of the Alps switches but a little more "buttery" like a Cherry.

[Special K]

There are some SMK switches in vintage boards that people like. If you're after a particular type, they're about as easy to got hold of as your average phantom though.

What exactly would I be looking for here?

[keyb_gr]

What exactly would I be looking for here?

Possibly these or the infamous Chicony KB-5181 (which may ship with all kinds of switches, Alps-ish blue SMKs and blue Cherry ones included).

[itlnstln]

Might want to keep a saved Ebay search for the Focus FK-2001 to try a original White Alps. This one went for $45.
 
I'm not impressed with the simplified XM White Alps though and the trouble with obsolete switches is I really only want NIB keyboards.

I believe Northgate-Keyboard-Repair.com has some NIBs if you are terribly interested in trying real Alps.

[Special K]

I believe Northgate-Keyboard-Repair.com has some NIBs if you are terribly interested in trying real Alps.

White alps seem much more expensive and rare than black alps for some reason.  You can still pick up a NIB AT101W for $15 to try black alps, but white alps seem to be much harder to come by.

[itlnstln]

White alps seem much more expensive and rare than black alps for some reason. You can still pick up a NIB AT101W for $15 to try black alps, but white alps seem to be much harder to come by.

Now that you say that, that's a good point.  It's odd that you can find cheap black Alps NIB, but not white.  Northgate Keyboard Repair doesn't exactly give away those NIB Northgates.  Since the Dells were OEM keyboards that shipped with thousands of systems, there might just be so many of them available that it drives down the price of that 'board.  I am suprised, though, that there aren't more NIB Northgates, but then again, they didn't ship near as many systems as Dell.

[timw4mail]

Maybe it's all about the bounce-back?

Well, okay yes, but not like that.

[alpslover]

Might want to keep a saved Ebay search for the Focus FK-2001 to try a original White Alps.  This one went for $45.

and the winning bidder will probably discover that that focus doesn't have real white alps switches, but fake simplifieds instead.  if he even realizes (or cares) that there's a difference.

the older the focus, the more likely it is to have genuine alps switches.  if it has windows keys, it's pretty much a guarantee that it uses fake simplifieds.

the only way to be 100% sure of the switches used is to have the seller confirm by pulling a keycap.

[timw4mail]

and the winning bidder will probably discover that that focus doesn't have real white alps switches, but fake simplifieds instead.  if he even realizes (or cares) that there's a difference.

the older the focus, the more likely it is to have genuine alps switches.  if it has windows keys, it's pretty much a guarantee that it uses fake simplifieds.

the only way to be 100% sure of the switches used is to have the seller confirm by pulling a keycap.

I don't know anything about ALPS switches, but that keyboard just looks amazing to type on.

[Special K]

and the winning bidder will probably discover that that focus doesn't have real white alps switches, but fake simplifieds instead.  if he even realizes (or cares) that there's a difference.

the older the focus, the more likely it is to have genuine alps switches.  if it has windows keys, it's pretty much a guarantee that it uses fake simplifieds.

the only way to be 100% sure of the switches used is to have the seller confirm by pulling a keycap.

Wow, that makes it even more difficult to identify true white alps.  I don't think I would trust an ebay seller to know the difference.  Heck, I don't even think I would be able to tell the difference.

[kyamei]

and the winning bidder will probably discover that that focus doesn't have real white alps switches, but fake simplifieds instead.  if he even realizes (or cares) that there's a difference.

the older the focus, the more likely it is to have genuine alps switches.  if it has windows keys, it's pretty much a guarantee that it uses fake simplifieds.

the only way to be 100% sure of the switches used is to have the seller confirm by pulling a keycap.

I have a FK-2001 with windows keys and REAL white alps.  Of course, of the 7 or so of these boards I had, only 1 had real alps.  It was in pretty bad shape, so I pulled the click leaves out of it and put it in my AT101W (used the black alps springs though).

[lal]

I think the xm white alps do some things better that the blues (clean sound and travel, fast bounce back), but you must be into the slightly heavier keystroke and break-away force graph.

Sounds exactly like me.  Guess I'll have to order a Filco Zero soon...

[itlnstln]

Maybe it's all about the bounce-back?

Strong.  Good work, webwit.

[itlnstln]

I have a FK-2001 with windows keys and REAL white alps. Of course, of the 7 or so of these boards I had, only 1 had real alps. It was in pretty bad shape, so I pulled the click leaves out of it and put it in my AT101W (used the black alps springs though).

My Northgate has real Alps and fake Windows keys.
 
 
Wait...
 
 
Seriously though, Northgates have real, white Alps and Windows keys.

[Rajagra]

Maybe it's all about the bounce-back?

I only watched that to the end to see if there was a punchline (like they were bouncing on a fat guy's stomach or something.)

[alpslover]

I have a FK-2001 with windows keys and REAL white alps.

out of curiosity, does it have the power management keys by the arrow cluster?

[alpslover]

Wow, that makes it even more difficult to identify true white alps.  I don't think I would trust an ebay seller to know the difference.  Heck, I don't even think I would be able to tell the difference.

the best thing to do is to buy from an ebay seller who's knowledgeable about keyboards and is willing to pull a keycap.  if the switches have 'alps' stamped on them, you're golden.  some earlier 2001's used genuine alps with light blue stems, but these switches don't have 'alps' stamped on their top surfaces.  the problem is, some later 2001's used fake simplified alps with a slightly darker blue stem.  the two can be confused fairly easily in pictures.

or you could simply spring for a northgate, they all use genuine click tactile alps switches.  i do have to wonder about the northgate keyboard refurbishing services on ebay, though.  one of them claims to replace any broken switches with 'new alps switches'.  does he have a stash of new unused genuine alps switches, or is he using fake simplifieds?

[kyamei]

out of curiosity, does it have the power management keys by the arrow cluster?

No it doesn't have the power management keys.  Of the 7 boards I had, 1 did have those power management keys though.  That board seemed to be the newest, it had a PS2 connector, lasered keycaps (the rest were dual shot), and fake white alps.

[Special K]

Now that you say that, that's a good point.  It's odd that you can find cheap black Alps NIB, but not white.  Northgate Keyboard Repair doesn't exactly give away those NIB Northgates.  Since the Dells were OEM keyboards that shipped with thousands of systems, there might just be so many of them available that it drives down the price of that 'board.  I am suprised, though, that there aren't more NIB Northgates, but then again, they didn't ship near as many systems as Dell.

I was looking on ebay for Northgate Omnikey and the used refurbished ones are selling for up to $200.  Wow, are they selling for so much just because they are that rare?

[itlnstln]

I was looking on ebay for Northgate Omnikey and the used refurbished ones are selling for up to $200. Wow, are they selling for so much just because they are that rare?

They are that rare to a certain extent, and they are probably the best made keyboard on the planet.  In the case of my Evolution, it beats the Model M in quality, ruggedness and pure win hands down; no contest.
 
If I had to go to war with one keyboard, the Northgate would be it.

[timw4mail]

They are that rare to a certain extent, and they are probably the best made keyboard on the planet.  In the case of my Evolution, it beats the Model M in quality, ruggedness and pure win hands down; no contest.
 
If I had to go to war with one keyboard, the Northgate would be it.

Well, the Model F is also indisputably better-built than the Model M, and I'd argue that they have better switches.

Anybody know how the two compare? The Model F and the Nothgate?

[timw4mail]

Is that your Selectric?

[timw4mail]

Yep, I'll post soon how the thing works.  Can't beat the tactile experience of a whirring 110VAC motor under your fingertips getting ready to pivot a ball to just the right spot before snapping the paper.

Lots of springs but none of them buckle.

The THWACK on paper was the original tactility. Funny sometimes how backwords the world is about that sort of thing now.

[itlnstln]

Well, the Model F is also indisputably better-built than the Model M, and I'd argue that they have better switches.
 
Anybody know how the two compare? The Model F and the Nothgate?

Switches are subjective as well as the layout, so that argument's out (Hell, I don't use a Model M or my Northgate mainly because of the switches). The Northgate has the better the overall construction with a 100% steel case (minus keycaps and the plastic cowling over the steel case on the top) and an additional steel plate in the 'board itself. The Northgate has self-conatined switches, with easier to replace parts (should you need to for any reason), a longer cable, and programmability (the F certainly doesn't have that). Also, a weight of around 5-10 lbs. (depending on your model) with rubber feet that need a bulldozer to move, the Northgate line was built to kill.
 
Oh yeah, I forgot - Northgates have double-shot molded keycaps, too.
 
Now if I could only remember where I posted those pictures about a year ago...
 
Oh yeah: http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=63214&postcount=2 Kinda crappy, but hey, I'm no photographer.

[itlnstln]

Oh, and one more thing.  I don't recall on the F, specifically, but Northgates don't have rivets that break when you look at them funny.
 
Don't get me wrong.  I love the F and M and think they are great 'boards are very well-built.  Northgates were on another level, though.

[timw4mail]

Oh, and one more thing.  I don't recall on the F, specifically, but Northgates don't have rivets that break when you look at them funny.
 
Don't get me wrong.  I love the F and M and think they are great 'boards are very well-built.  Northgates were on another level, though.

The F is on a level above the Model M, no silly plastic rivets.